Japanese DVD Forum Conference 10/4/07 - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Mullis View Post

Hey man, it is what it is. Region coding is now affecting releases, and that sucks too.

And region coding may be a reason Disney isn't on board.

So why don't YOU try and think about US sometimes, who are having to wait until "sometime in 2008" to get a couple of movies, and who have to import Buena Vista movies from your side of the world for more money.

Sorry mate but us Australians(and others) have been screwed for decades over higher prices of hardware/software and release dates, you can't even begin to compare.

Only recently with international releases, regionfree players and now HD DVD software are we starting to get a break, but this hasn't had time to affect our local prices yet and we still need to import to take advantage of the cheaper pricing and available titles.

cheers
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post #152 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 07:03 PM
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Slowly but surely.. keep running into kanji that for the life of me I can't find the right combination of radicals to even begin to find them, and when I finally do I feel like such an idiot because it was so OBVIOUS! :P
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post #153 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by K.L. View Post




A couple of things to point out. It indicates BCA is on the furthest layer from the optical pickup, meaning it's harder to read (and impossible for a SD only drive) : however, while trying to find out more information about the "HD DVD Information" and "DVD Information" stuff, stumbled across information that indicates the BCA should be unused anyways for DVD Video.

See this:
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...pfi+bp33&hl=en

This is originally for the TL45 we can guess as it's dated 2005, and I'd like to point out it mentions that the PFI:BP33 indicates only whether it is a combo disc or not, not whether it is a dual layer combo disc or triple, which explains the wording on the slide about compatiblity, what they're really saying is it makes it easier to develope the drive software.

Initially, on a combo disc, the drive would have to look for a third layer and try to determine if there was a third layer or not, which could be difficult considering that it may be hard to tell a non existant third layer from a hard to read third layer (bad or damaged disc, optics failing, whatever), and it would be a time consuming process as it tries to recognize what variant of disc media is in the drive.

In this same document, a little before where I was reading about this, it said something about the BCA:
Quote:


[0119] Moreover, (BP16) indicates the presence of the Burst Cutting Area (BCA), and there must not be the BCA in a DVD video, so that

[0120] b7 (BCA flag): 0b (without BCA) is written.

There is BCA for the HD DVD layer however, used for some form of copy protection related gizmo-ness or something it sounds like. Not sure if its actually used yet, or for future use. I was only checking on this to try and figure out how to translate the text in the slide.

In either case, since it should not be present on SD DVD Video, but can/should be for HD DVD, putting it on the third layer is no problem - If you can't read the BCA and need it to play the HD DVD, well, you're already screwed because the disc isn't reading!

I think someone mentioned BCA was used by DIVX "DVD"s, and since we can hope to never see a DIVX HD DVD Combo, the BCA being inaccessible to a SD DVD layer should be of no consequence.

BCA is a non-issue.
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post #154 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 10:01 PM
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edit
Rio corrected my interpretation of the asterisked line. Man, now that I've slept and I'm looking at it again, that's so obvious too. I should hve gone to bed sooner. It says "land groove, zone track structure" rather than my original failure of "ran groove, sontrack structure" .. for one thing, I totally dropped the 'DO' in 'RANDO', and didn't see the " mark on 'SO' making it 'ZO'.end edit

Here, I think the * is indicating the run groove structure is referring DVD-RAM, and that the physical track structure is different from normal HD DVD 15/17 structure.

Heh. Hadn't realized the 14th image wasn't posted into the thread yet, was just going in order after starting with KL's post
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post #155 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BioSehnsucht View Post

From this, it's obvious reflectivity on the 2nd and 3rd layers goes down on a triple layer, however it is specified that the first (SD DVD) layer keep the same requirements. The specific red and blue laser requirements are listed to specify that the reflectivity requirements to each wavelength laser.

I don't see why, with modern technology, we can't make do with a 6-12% reflectivity, as long as we are sensitive enough to pick that up and amplify it without injecting too much noise, with modern error correction I'm sure it'll work out in the end.

The asterisked comment is how I interpret this. Maybe it's just red laser and blue laser, but either way it's equivalent for our purposes. I don't feel like wasting time making that clear since either way works

Thanks for translation! It sounds like it may require a change in hardware for the new reflectivity and the third layer may be unreachable by current players. At least you don't deny the Google translation that says the third layer that has BCA is inaccessible by current HD DVD players, do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BioSehnsucht View Post

There is BCA for the HD DVD layer however, used for some form of copy protection related gizmo-ness or something it sounds like. Not sure if its actually used yet, or for future use. I was only checking on this to try and figure out how to translate the text in the slide.

In either case, since it should not be present on SD DVD Video, but can/should be for HD DVD, putting it on the third layer is no problem - If you can't read the BCA and need it to play the HD DVD, well, you're already screwed because the disc isn't reading!

I think someone mentioned BCA was used by DIVX "DVD"s, and since we can hope to never see a DIVX HD DVD Combo, the BCA being inaccessible to a SD DVD layer should be of no consequence.

BCA is a non-issue.

The guy who mentioned DIVX is wnorris. Oh did he remove his own post? I repost it here for your convenience.
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Originally Posted by wnorris View Post

This is really sad. You are trying to spread FUD and you don't even know what you are talking about. Why don't you just make stuff up the next time to make it easier on yourself.

Yes, this article and presentation does say that HD DVD has better region coding technology than DVD, despite it not being used yet. That's about all you guess right.

What this is saying is that Twin discs are supposed to be able to play in both HD DVD players and standard DVD players, despite all the layers being on one side of the disc. So pop any twin disc into almost any player in the world, and it should play.

What is being questioned is can you use a mix of DVD Region Coding and HD DVD region coding, or otherwise, is it possible to have one Region Code (AACS based) for the HD content, and a seperate region code (CSS based) for the DVD content? This is being investigated.

I personally say make everything region free and lets all live in one world.

The next part, which you so ineptly try to spin as "There you have it, the 2 HD DVD layers in a HD DVD TL Twin disc is not compatible with current HD DVD players while the DVD layer is readable." is entirely wrong. Do you even know what the BCA is. Here is a nickle crash course:

"According to the physical DVD specification, a Burst Cutting Area (BCA) is a feature that provides support for a bar code to be written inside of the lead-in area of replicated DVDs. This allows for discs to be given unique codes, which can come in handy as a form of copy protection in circumstances. This feature is rarely used and support for reading BCA is not mandatory."

The BCA was used by DIVX to ID individual discs. What is being questioned is if a BCA can be included on a HD DVD. Basically they can, but it appears that you can't have a seperate BCA for the HD and SD layers. The second BCA is unreadable (not clear if it is unreadable by current DVD, current HD, or both). Big whop and a far cry from what you claim.

As for spherical aberration, it simply means:

"A perfect lens focuses all incoming rays to a point on the optic axis. A real lens with spherical surfaces suffers from spherical aberration: it focuses rays more tightly if they enter it far from the optic axis than if they enter closer to the axis. It therefore does not produce a perfect focal point."

Spherical aberration revision simply means they must correct the focus of the lens to minimize/eliminate abberration. To read three layers, they need to have a drive that can refocus. Or if it can't refocus, they need a drive that can perform correction on the data stream to compensate. This kind of compensation can be achieved through PRML and ETM. In HD DVD whitepapers going back to 2004, Toshiba stated the need for their drives to be PRML drives for HD DVD. To the best of my knowledge, every Toshiba since the A1 has had a PRML equipped drive installed (don't know about the 360 add on), meaning all generations of technology already have this drive. I think the questions being raised are, will DVD drives need PRML to read the SD layer? How many DVD drives already have the technology? PRML DVD drives have been around since 2004, but how many make it into DVD players? What about the cheapo $29 DVD player? Did they skimp on PRML?

KL, I nominate you for the most FUD tastic post I think I've ever seen on AVS. You took something in a language you don't even understand, ran it through a translater that is known to give garbled up translations, and then spun the grabled translation to basically say it is a presentation by the DVD forum on why triple layer discs are a total failure.

Bravo FUD-meister!

I don't know why wnorris tried to explain what BCA is to me, it was quite funny. I was wating to see his next funny comment but he disappeared

Actually the (first 8 bytes of) disc ID recorded in BCA is used for AACS on HD DVD.
http://www.aacsla.com/specifications...rded_0_912.pdf
Quote:


In an AACS-Protected HD DVD-Video ROM, the most significant 64 bits of the Volume Identifier
shall be stored in the Burst Cutting Area (BCA) as shown in Table 2-3. The least significant 64 bits of the
Volume Identifier shall be stored in a Copyright Data Section of the Control Data Zone (See 2.3.1) in a
manner described in the AACS HD DVD and DVD Pre-recorded Book, Confidential Part.

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post #156 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by K.L. View Post

Thanks for translation! It sounds like it may require a change in hardware for the new reflectivity and the third layer may be unreachable by current players. At least you don't deny the Google translation that says the third layer that has BCA is inaccessible by current HD DVD players, do you?

From what I am gathering, I wouldn't rule out that firmware updates could enable all current sanctioned players (i.e, not the first gen LG DF player) to read a three layer disc. Certainly, it is more difficult, there is no denying that. However, it is certainly possible. Can't say for sure, of course, I neither built the things nor am I an optical storage engineer.

As I said, BCA is a non-issue. BCA is unused and unneeded for SD DVD layer, so the SD layer will still work with everything, and as far as HD DVD is concerned, if you can't read the BCA because it's on the third layer, you can't play 3 layer discs anyways. There is no indication of any silly 2HD+1HD for TL capable only or 1SD+1HD+1HD TL capable only tomfoolery, that'd be plain crazy. So we can assume, if a 3 layer disc is to be read, it must be fully read, not just the first two layers. So either it works, or it doesn't, but in either case, BCA is irrelevant to the implementation of TL discs.

Let the BCA issue rest.

Quote:


Actually the (first 8 bytes of) disc ID recorded in BCA is used for AACS on HD DVD.
http://www.aacsla.com/specifications...rded_0_912.pdf

Interesting, I may get around to reading that later. I intend to read that ancient TL45 patent I linked also, no telling what interesting info is in there.

Working on that third slide you posted, it's a bit more interpretive (as in, I'm doing more guessing of what the actual meaning behind the kanji is).
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post #157 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 12:52 AM
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Alright, this takes more interpreting. Also, both babel and google really hose this up, so don't expect much if you punch these lines into them.

The first line is pretty much filler, telling us that we're going to expand operation for TL discs. Well, duh.
Text: 3層化のために記録層の設定基板厚さ半範囲を拡大

I believe what this slide is mainly telling us is that a new spherical correction function (or set of data, or what have you) is being used to implement TL discs.
Text: 拡大した厚さ範囲で再生特性を確するたあに,球面収差補正機能を導入

Before anyone jumps to conclusions, there's a decent chance this is firmware updatable, but we can't know that, so please everyone relax and don't jump to conclusions in either direction.

The last main line there, this might be saying that the correction value will be somehow set into the disc at manufacture test time, otherwise I'm not sure what test time would be used, except perhaps power on / disc insertion calibration.

Text: 装置簡単化のたあ,テスト時の補正値は各層で固定化

Obviously the graph is labeled 3 layer range and 2 layer range with regards to the thickness range of operation vs refractive index there.. The version indications are telling us these are what are specified per each version. The final / current HD30 specs have a +-22 micron range, while the 1.9 version for TL (which may or may not get another iteration, before final approval .. blah blah blah) is +-37. This is essentially stating the optical mechanism has to operate over this greater distance, due to having more layers.

It actually looks like this may push the bottom-most layer slightly closer to the outer surface of the disk, as 0.6mm is the point from these measurements are indicated, and we know 0.6mm to be the nominal first layer depth for a DVD / HD DVD. To stop the "ZOMG needs hardcoating LOLZ", this should be a non-issue in the sense that we're only going 37 micron closer to the surface, and if you've managed to put an at least 0.563 mm scratch into the disc, you've probably put a 0.6mm or greater scratch. In other words, if it's a problem now, it was a problem before. No appreciable difference.

Another item one might point out, is this pushes the SD layer closer, and what does this do to plain old SD players? Well, seeing as they are running on looser tolerances to begin with, this will do absolutely nothing. If you can resurface a disc to fix it, you can certainly put the data layer 37 micron closer to the surface without having to invest in a set of bifocals for the DVD player. In fact this same rational will likely apply to the HD DVD players, and I don't expect even trying to focus 37 micron further in than normal will be an issue, only perhaps to what degree the reduced reflectivity hinders things.
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post #158 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 01:09 AM
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Wonderful work, BioSehnsucht, thank you very much. I'm studying Japanese at the moment, but I'm nowhere near your level... and very jealous of your skills

I won't pay a cent for UHD Blu-rays made from 2K masters by upscaling.
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post #159 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Wonderful work, BioSehnsucht, thank you very much. I'm studying Japanese at the moment, but I'm nowhere near your level... and very jealous of your skills

It's not like I know any more than a smattering of kanji (like a few of the numbers, one or two other things). I forgot most of what I learned in that one semester I took several years ago... need to get back to formal learning for it.

while slow and tedious, once you learn how to break down kanji into radicals and then look them up in something like JquickTrans, it's not so bad.. for this kind of brute force translation, it's more about knowing how to re-interpret things into english and understand basic grammer, rather than actually knowing any vocabulary.. I wish I could just read this
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post #160 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 01:56 AM
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Aight, not going to upload an image for this one, since it's all text.
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6. Future Standardization Schedule

> HD DVD-ROM (51G) Standard
Presently, final specification Ver 2.0 is being compiled. Scheduled to be issued at the end of this year.

> HD DVD-R/RW Standard
Add SL 4x record, and DL 2x recording options to the standard specifications.

> HD DVD-RAM Standard
Examination of standard for DL recording.

As indicated above, they're working on finalizing a 2.0 specification for HD51 discs, with it scheduled to be issued at the end of the year. They seem to imply it *will* happen as opposed to *might*, but that might be language failure either going into Japanese or back out of it.

Adding faster record speeds is always nice, but I'd settle for 1x or 2x speed and a working drive for now

DL DVD-RAM, would be 40GB presumably. I suspect this is their stab at the data archival market, since it seems unlikely there will be much if any push to make DVD-RAM available for home video production type stuff, when we already have -R and -RW that conform to the usual HD DVD-ROM standards for video (or, presumably do).
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post #161 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 02:45 AM
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Another all texter, no image.
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Ad Hoc Group Activity

* AH0-18
- CPRM for DVD-Video Recording

* AH0-21
- CSS Download Service Model Specification
* Guideline issue

* AH0-22
- RPC (Region Playback Control) for HD DVD-ROM
* Examining the system control information robustness

AH0-18 I think is ye olde SD DVD junk. AH0-21 probably is too. AH0-22 is tough to translate the meaning of, but I think they're saying they're examining the robustness (against attack, bypass, etc) of the proposed RPC mechanism for HD DVD. As indicated by amirm, this has been "studied" for quite some time, i.e. it's not going anywhere.

Nothing to see here, move along.
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post #162 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by BioSehnsucht View Post

Aight, not going to upload an image for this one, since it's all text.


As indicated above, they're working on finalizing a 2.0 specification for HD51 discs, with it scheduled to be issued at the end of the year. They seem to imply it *will* happen as opposed to *might*, but that might be language failure either going into Japanese or back out of it.

Thats good news.
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post #163 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 06:29 AM
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Good work, BioSehnsucht. I found many things you translated are close to the meaning what original Japanese slides are saying.

One thing I can point out is the word "run groove, sontrack" you wrote - it was "land groove, zone track structure", explaining the track structure of the HD DVD-RAM disc.

BCA is, as its name suggests, the bust cut area by very strong laser after replication to burn out the reflective film of the deepest layer for each disc so that each disc can have different ID. This BCA is mainly used for copy protection, such as Nintendo's game disc, DVD-R/RW discs with CPRM key embedded, and AACS. Normal DVD-Video discs do not use the BCA.

Since BCA is a very coarse signal compared to the pit size on the recording layers, I suspect that BCA written on the 3rd layer in a TL Twin format could be readable by current drives by firmware update. On the other hand, TL51 requires spherical aberration correction - this is a hardware on an optical pickup head, essentially needed to read deeper layer -, therefore current drives cannot read the 3rd layer.

According to a rep at the HD DVD drive section in the Toshiba booth at CEATEC who I talked with, he mentioned that TL Twin can be readable but TL51 is not, even on the drives that Toshiba has not released yet, since TL51 requires hardware change.

Anyway, there is a possibility that the rep I talked might not have latest information. It is said that TL51 spec. version 2.0 will be released around the end of this year, let's see what the answer will be.
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post #164 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

A revision of the spherical aberration code does not mean that existing players cannot read this.

Nice try, though.

I think the BD bunch are trying very hard to turn this meeting into some proof that HD DVD is "doomed yet again"


Doomed!! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!!!!

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post #165 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rio View Post

Good work, BioSehnsucht. I found many things you translated are close to the meaning what original Japanese slides are saying.

One thing I can point out is the word "run groove, sontrack" you wrote - it was "land groove, zone track structure", explaining the track structure of the HD DVD-RAM disc.

BCA is, as its name suggests, the bust cut area by very strong laser after replication to burn out the reflective film of the deepest layer for each disc so that each disc can have different ID. This BCA is mainly used for copy protection, such as Nintendo's game disc, DVD-R/RW discs with CPRM key embedded, and AACS. Normal DVD-Video discs do not use the BCA.

Since BCA is a very coarse signal compared to the pit size on the recording layers, I suspect that BCA written on the 3rd layer in a TL Twin format could be readable by current drives by firmware update. On the other hand, TL51 requires spherical aberration correction - this is a hardware on an optical pickup head, essentially needed to read deeper layer -, therefore current drives cannot read the 3rd layer.

According to a rep at the HD DVD drive section in the Toshiba booth at CEATEC who I talked with, he mentioned that TL Twin can be readable but TL51 is not, even on the drives that Toshiba has not released yet, since TL51 requires hardware change.

Anyway, there is a possibility that the rep I talked might not have latest information. It is said that TL51 spec. version 2.0 will be released around the end of this year, let's see what the answer will be.

Great! Huge thanks Rio, my bet was correct after all.
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Just confirmed with my half sleeping wife (Japanese, as I am not a native Japanese speaker) but this article is talking about region coding for DVDs, and that region coding has not yet been established for HD DVD (which doesn't mean it will be, and I'm sure most of know it has been an ongoing conversation with HD DVD for 2005 and 2006). It talks about the problem of some DVD players reading a multi-layer (DVD + 15GB HD DVD and DVD + 30GB HD DVD) DVD+HD DVD single sided combo disc.

Basically, this says nothing of any real concern for region coding for HD DVD that I can see.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #167 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Rio View Post

Good work, BioSehnsucht. I found many things you translated are close to the meaning what original Japanese slides are saying.

One thing I can point out is the word "run groove, sontrack" you wrote - it was "land groove, zone track structure", explaining the track structure of the HD DVD-RAM disc.

Ah, I'll go back and fix up the image / text! Thanks. Saved me researching this later.

Quote:


BCA is, as its name suggests, the bust cut area by very strong laser after replication to burn out the reflective film of the deepest layer for each disc so that each disc can have different ID. This BCA is mainly used for copy protection, such as Nintendo's game disc, DVD-R/RW discs with CPRM key embedded, and AACS. Normal DVD-Video discs do not use the BCA.

Since BCA is a very coarse signal compared to the pit size on the recording layers, I suspect that BCA written on the 3rd layer in a TL Twin format could be readable by current drives by firmware update. On the other hand, TL51 requires spherical aberration correction - this is a hardware on an optical pickup head, essentially needed to read deeper layer -, therefore current drives cannot read the 3rd layer.

So it is possible (if they do a calibration test on every disc) that they could pre-program the correction values into each disc's BCA (since apparently not all of the space is used yet) at manufacture time. Since the BCA is such low resolution information, making it easier to read, it is even more of a non issue than I thought.

Quote:


According to a rep at the HD DVD drive section in the Toshiba booth at CEATEC who I talked with, he mentioned that TL Twin can be readable but TL51 is not, even on the drives that Toshiba has not released yet, since TL51 requires hardware change.

Anyway, there is a possibility that the rep I talked might not have latest information. It is said that TL51 spec. version 2.0 will be released around the end of this year, let's see what the answer will be.

I suspect that either TL Twins and TL will both work (since the reflectivity of the final layer is probably the same), or neither will work. If anything, I would have expected TL Twins to be more difficult, requiring a higher reflectivity on the SD layer for old SD players than the new HD players that were presumably designed to be more sensitive, which would mean there would be less light reflected on the deeper layers. On the other hand, maybe TL Twins are easier because SD is less sensitive to noise, being a that the data is more sparse and easier to pick up.. so perhaps a TL Twin can have a lower reflectivity for it's SD layer than a normal HD layer would have?

Again, I'm no expert, and we'll see one way or the other.. eventually.. probably.
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post #168 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by K.L. View Post

Great! Huge thanks Rio, my bet was correct after all.
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=135

You can't know that for sure. Just because Rio says he heard it too, doesn't make it any more true than any other rumor. Really, I don't think a Tosh rep on the floor of any event is going to know what is REALLY going on in the engineering end of things, until AFTER they have announced either way.

Put away the jump-to-conclusions mat, and wait a few more months before you celebrate.
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post #169 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 05:06 PM
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This slide is talking about HD DVD related activities

Specifically, physical standard related activities.

Under the completed heading we have HD DVD-ROM China version has been completed, and TL Twin format has been completed. This seems to indicate that TL Twin has indeed been 100% approved, but this may just mean the physical specifications are done, not that it is ready for mass replication. The 1 DVD / 2 HD DVD layer layout is repeated here, and from how much this has been repeated with no mentino of 2 DVD / 1 HD DVD I don't think we'll be seeing any 2SD/1HD Twins.

The next section is about what is currently being finalized, with regards to physical implementation. The only thing here is the TL 51G specification, and it notes that v1.9 is pending final approval, I think. This could be pending final approval or that it already has been approved, but as elsewhere in the slides there is reference to it being updated to a 2.0 specification I think this means it is pending approval. Most likely the final will be 2.0

The third section is about what they're beginning to work on, and here they list HD DVD-RAM dual layer specification, which presumably at the advertised 20GB/layer would be 40GB.

The last section on this slide is merely stating the existing approved formats for reference purposes, the single sided 2L Twin (1SD/1HD) and 2x2 Combo (2SD/2HD dual sided).

The depiction of a TL disc seems to be here just for visual reference, they're not actually telling us anything technical.
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post #170 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BioSehnsucht View Post

I suspect that either TL Twins and TL will both work (since the reflectivity of the final layer is probably the same), or neither will work. If anything, I would have expected TL Twins to be more difficult, requiring a higher reflectivity on the SD layer for old SD players than the new HD players that were presumably designed to be more sensitive, which would mean there would be less light reflected on the deeper layers. On the other hand, maybe TL Twins are easier because SD is less sensitive to noise, being a that the data is more sparse and easier to pick up.. so perhaps a TL Twin can have a lower reflectivity for it's SD layer than a normal HD layer would have?

The essential difference between TL Twin and TL51 is the distance between the layers. Distance between HD DVD-ROM layer#0 and layer#1 of the TL Twin is 20 micrometers which is the same thickness of the current DL30, while the one of the TL51 is 35 micrometers which is 15 micrometers thicker than DL30. The bit error rate gets worse when the thickness between layers is getting bigger, since spherical aberration is getting worse (original optical signal/noise ratio from the OPU is getting worse). That's the reason why spherical aberration correction is required.

I'm not sure whether existing drives have the spherical aberration corrector on its OPU - such as liquid crystal panel to compensate irregular optical image, there is a chance to make that drive readable TL51 via firmware update.
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post #171 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 06:37 PM
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Thanks for translation! It sounds like it may require a change in hardware for the new reflectivity and the third layer may be unreachable by current players. At least you don't deny the Google translation that says the third layer that has BCA is inaccessible by current HD DVD players, do you?



The guy who mentioned DIVX is wnorris. Oh did he remove his own post? I repost it here for your convenience.
I don't know why wnorris tried to explain what BCA is to me, it was quite funny. I was wating to see his next funny comment but he disappeared

Actually the (first 8 bytes of) disc ID recorded in BCA is used for AACS on HD DVD.
http://www.aacsla.com/specifications...rded_0_912.pdf

No change in hardware required (at least for standalones). This is where PRML comes in, and I believe every drive in the standalones is capable.

The BCA isn't inaccessable to HD DVD. It is inaccessable to SD DVD players. Which doesn't matter, because CSS doesn't use it. The only DVD type formate that has was DIVX. DIVX discs each had a unique serial number that was required for playback, and this was stored in the BCA.

Further, I never removed my own post. If it's gone, then it's because the mods removed it. Further, I didn't return because some people decided to report me to the mods in an attempt to get me banned. I'll let everyone guess who that was...
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Originally Posted by BioSehnsucht View Post

You can't know that for sure. Just because Rio says he heard it too, doesn't make it any more true than any other rumor. Really, I don't think a Tosh rep on the floor of any event is going to know what is REALLY going on in the engineering end of things, until AFTER they have announced either way.

Put away the jump-to-conclusions mat, and wait a few more months before you celebrate.

I agree, KL is just wow. I have never seen someone act like that before.

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Originally Posted by wnorris View Post

No change in hardware required (at least for standalones). This is where PRML comes in, and I believe every drive in the standalones is capable.

The BCA isn't inaccessable to HD DVD. It is inaccessable to SD DVD players. Which doesn't matter, because CSS doesn't use it. The only DVD type formate that has was DIVX. DIVX discs each had a unique serial number that was required for playback, and this was stored in the BCA.

Further, I never removed my own post. If it's gone, then it's because the mods removed it. Further, I didn't return because some people decided to report me to the mods in an attempt to get me banned. I'll let everyone guess who that was...

KL is just trolling the thread to insist the TL won't be read by existing players. That's what some of these folks want to happen. People like that also are quick to report, they don't want to debate or discuss things openly but instead engage in acts of silencing people. Many others of his ilk.
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post #173 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 06:52 PM
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So what happened to HD-DVD's "region coding is bad for the consumers" stance? I'm interested to see how the hd-dvd fanboys are going to spin this one.

As opposed to how you Blu-Ray fanboys want to spin things?

I'm not going to spin it in any direction: Region coding sucks moose genitalia, regardless of what format we're discussing. That has not changed. If HD-DVD implements region coding, I will be less pleased with the format (not much I can do about it since then BOTH HD formats will then have region coding, but there will be less of a reason for me to pick HD-DVD over Blu-Ray).

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post #174 of 192 Old 10-07-2007, 07:08 PM
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No image again, just going to give the text:
Quote:


HD DVD Related Activities

China HD DVD-ROM
- OMNERC (Optical Memory National Engineering Research Center / National Tsing Hua University optical process research center) center, including China HD DVD-ROM technology in standardization.
_*Standardization motion
__- Physical Standard: Chinese modulation technique usage has been aproved
__- File Formats: Current HD DVD-ROM formats are already approved. Standardization work in progress.
__- Application Format: Standard Content usage is already approved.
- In conclusion, OMNERC and MOU are examining licensing
- China High-Definition DVD industry Association founded on 2007/9/7.

The lack of mention for HDi indicates that so far, China is only going with Standard Content and not Advanced Content for China HD DVD-ROM.

Looks like the physical structure is essentially HD DVD-ROM with the different Chinese modulation type. File formats are the same, but this appears to be still a work in progress? Perhaps they are working on standardizing how to fit AVS codec into existing HD DVD-ROM formatted streams.

They seem to still be looking into licensing issues, so maybe they're trying to work out favorable terms to include HDi and other licensed tech into their China HD DVD-ROM standard.

The last line is just telling us when the official Chinese group was created, the second line of that parenthesized section before the date is (I think) restating in Chinese kanji rather than Japanese; it's definately non Japanese kanji.
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Originally Posted by Helvetian View Post

KL is just trolling the thread to insist the TL won't be read by existing players. That's what some of these folks want to happen. People like that also are quick to report, they don't want to debate or discuss things openly but instead engage in acts of silencing people. Many others of his ilk.

It certainly does seem like a replay of the "BD players can't play BD50 discs" we had going on around this time last year.

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post #176 of 192 Old 10-08-2007, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by BioSehnsucht View Post



....

I believe what this slide is mainly telling us is that a new spherical correction function (or set of data, or what have you) is being used to implement TL discs.
Text: 拡大した厚さ範囲で再生特性を確するたあに,球面収差補正機能を導入

Before anyone jumps to conclusions, there's a decent chance this is firmware updatable, but we can't know that, so please everyone relax and don't jump to conclusions in either direction.

...

I'm fairly certain that a firmware upgrade will do the trick.

Spherical abberation is already an issue with dual layer as there is already a function to deal with it.

They mention a revised SA function. It is most likely a software function already part of the prml technology in the drives for reliable dual layer readout. This function is revised to cope with the increased information area thickness to counter the SA effect.

If it is part of the prlm software in the firmware it can be upgraded.

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post #177 of 192 Old 10-08-2007, 12:16 PM
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Spherical abberation is already an issue with dual layer as there is already a function to deal with it.


Are you sure about this? SA is a hardware thing which is not required for DL reading. Current HD DVD device doesn't have SA AFAIK although Toshiba said SA was not that complex.

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post #178 of 192 Old 10-08-2007, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Rio View Post

I'm not sure whether existing drives have the spherical aberration corrector on its OPU.

I am pretty sure they don't have SA. Since it is not required for DL, why the extra cost?

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post #179 of 192 Old 10-08-2007, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

Are you sure about this? SA is a hardware thing which is not required for DL reading. Current HD DVD device doesn't have SA AFAIK although Toshiba said SA was not that complex.

Yes, spherical abberation is affecting dual layer too. Focussing in different depths is the root cause as are lens imperfections due to production tolerances. pmrl technology is already used to compensate for it.

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post #180 of 192 Old 10-08-2007, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

I am pretty sure they don't have SA. Since it is not required for DL, why the extra cost?

I see your confusion now. It think you are confusing Spherical Abberation with some sort of technical solution required for triple layer.

It's not.
Spherical abberation has to do with the optics inability to focus light rays falling with smal variations in angle on a lens in an exact single spot.

Put a flat surface between the lens and the focussing points and the surfaces breaking index alters the angles for the rays for the different focussing points for each layer.

Stereo is simply Multichannel light.
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