Why don't studio produce for both formats? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Just a question.

Why do the studios care so much about who wins the HD format wars? They own the content. So no matter the winning format, whether it be Blu Ray, HD DVD, downloads via internet, HD VMD (yea, I know, no chance!), Flash drive distribution, or any other formats/methods, why do they care? Anyone that wants content needs to go through the studios regardless of format. Studios should just offer the content to as many formats as possible to maximize their profits and reaching as many consumers as possible. Just like how video game studios get games on as many formats as possible (ie. EA games on PS3, X360, NDS, Wii, PSP, PC). What is wrong with that approach? Why force consumers to choose between Blu Ray player, HD DVD player, or any other HDM media player/hardware? I'm sure the under the table money that WB, Universal, and all other exclusive studios got is the real reason why they choose a side. If the video game industry can survive and thrive with the same content being published on all the different systems/formats, can you seriously make me believe that the same can't be done with HDM! If it can be done with games, it cannot be the productions costs. Everyone watches movies! Not everyone plays video games! Movies are way cheaper then games (including HD versions of movies)! Not to mention the cost of making a game is now exceeding the cost of shooting a movie. And look at how much the video game industry has exploded!

Why did DVD sales go down? Certainly not because of HD DVD or Blu Ray! With more and more people renting DVDs online, watching content online (youtube, dailymotion), and playing video games, who is going to buy DVDs? The consumer has a finite amount of money and time to spend on entertainment! And with the number of forms of entertainment increasing, and the amount of consumer time and money staying the same (esp. with todays economy) it is an obvious conclusion that DVD sales will go down.
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post #2 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 09:35 AM
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I think this is an easy answer, its all about the consumer. There is a general thought that the masses will be unwilling to jump in and buy a player if they believe there are two competing formats and that one will win in the long term. They don't want to be disappointed and repeat what happened with Beta.

I believe Warner mentioned this in their press release.. they want a format to be decided so hopefully the market can start growing faster once a format wins. Sure two formats could be supported but its harder convincing people this will work long term.
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post #3 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 09:41 AM
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if you bet the winning horse along with the losing horse you still lose.
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post #4 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 09:51 AM
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obviously you have never worked in the retail industry.

b&m stores have a finite amount of shelf space. couple that fact with the many thousands of titles available on SDVD and then consider having to find room for all those titles on the sales floor. then, do the same for a burgeoning HD format; then double that amount of space for a second format which is essentially the same. doesn't make alot of sense to me. take away one of those HD formats (e.g. HD DVD) and now all of a sudden you have twice the space available for the other "winning" format.

the video game industry is another creature entirely. the short answer is there are far fewer skus to be stocked, even with many multiples of systems on the market.
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post #5 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schaubless View Post

if you bet the winning horse along with the losing horse you still lose.

But until they cross the finish line, you get twice as much enjoyment out of the race...and you can still claim some "Place" money at the betting window on the second place horse.

The only ones who truly lose are the ones who get so wrapped up in the racing form that they forget to enjoy the race.

All of this science is hurting my brain!
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post #6 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToEhrIsHuman View Post

obviously you have never worked in the retail industry.

b&m stores have a finite amount of shelf space. couple that fact with the many thousands of titles available on SDVD and then consider having to find room for all those titles on the sales floor. then, do the same for a burgeoning HD format; then double that amount of space for a second format which is essentially the same. doesn't make alot of sense to me. take away one of those HD formats (e.g. HD DVD) and now all of a sudden you have twice the space available for the other "winning" format.

the video game industry is another creature entirely. the short answer is there are far fewer skus to be stocked, even with many multiples of systems on the market.

thats how they handled vhs the isles got smaller and smaller as they lost
sales to dvd.
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post #7 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToEhrIsHuman View Post

obviously you have never worked in the retail industry.

b&m stores have a finite amount of shelf space.

Which is why you can only buy one kind of cereal, one kind of video game, one kind of television...

Give me a break. There are three viable video game platforms, 20 different brands of 42" LCD at Best Buy, and 36643 types of cereal at the market.

Retailers will make room for product that SELLS.

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post #8 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 10:17 AM
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There is more money to be made (longterm) with one mainstream format than two niche formats (which was quickly emerging IMO). It has nothing to do with the consumer.

I'm glad someone finally asked this question that has never been discussed before
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post #9 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 10:20 AM
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Why doesnt Burger King sell Big Macs? Why doesnt Nike make some Reebox Shoes? Why doesnt Harley start selling Cars and Motorcycles to see which one they could sell more?

Movie Studios own their movies and want them sold on one format.
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post #10 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 10:21 AM
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..because there are for more financial incentives being offered by both sides to produce for one format. That's the ONLY reason. 4-5 million disc sales a year is enough to make the studios stop supporting HDM all together.. the reason they are still in the game is because they are being paid to do so... in some form or another.
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post #11 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEC2 View Post

Which is why you can only buy one kind of cereal, one kind of video game, one kind of television...

Give me a break. There are three viable video game platforms, 20 different brands of 42" LCD at Best Buy, and 36643 types of cereal at the market.

Retailers will make room for product that SELLS.

MEC2

i'd like to see the grocery store you shop at that has 36,643 types of cereal.
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post #12 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEC2 View Post

Which is why you can only buy one kind of cereal, one kind of video game, one kind of television...

Give me a break. There are three viable video game platforms, 20 different brands of 42" LCD at Best Buy, and 36643 types of cereal at the market.

Retailers will make room for product that SELLS.

MEC2

if thats all they are selling the interior of the store only has so many sq ft.
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post #13 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 10:46 AM
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I remember the last few months of LaserDisc purchases I made. New Line and Disney were more than happy to have a production run of discs as long as a minimum pre-order was met, and these were sold through a bunch of mail order specialty shops, not the normal B&M stores. I picked up Sleeping Beauty, Lady & the Tramp, Rush Hour (DTS), Blade (DTS), among others. Surprisingly, a remaster of Aliens didn't get enough pre-orders at the time, so they canceled that release. I'm wondering why studios wouldn't be willing to do the same this time around? There's enough specialty shops out there willing to deal with us HD fanatics, and they'd only have to pre-order what we were willing to buy, so inventory would stay at a low volume. Heck, even Amazon may jump in on this idea. But in the end it still comes down to convincing the studios it's still a feasible way to make some money.
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post #14 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 11:01 AM
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money.

At no point in your rambling, incoherent post were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it.

My Little Theater
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post #15 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEC2 View Post

Which is why you can only buy one kind of cereal, one kind of video game, one kind of television...

Give me a break. There are three viable video game platforms, 20 different brands of 42" LCD at Best Buy, and 36643 types of cereal at the market.

... and the reasonable extension of this is that there are tens of thousands of movie titles that different people are interested in. Every single television is compatible with each of these titles, which makes the retailer happy because this is an independent decision. What causes problems are interdependent decisions. If you buy that television you can only watch these movies, or if you buy that player you can only watch those movies. This results in an explosion of items to stock which is bad if you're a retailer.

The video game platform is the most interesting example that supports the argument for multiple formats. There seem to be two reasons why this still works in the market:

Firstly, the platforms have legitimately different capabilities that dramatically impact the content available on them (like Wii's interaction style, PS3's additional storage, etc.) People buy HD DVD and Blu-ray primarily to watch movies, and the movies themselves would be essentially identical on both formats. Interactivity, while important to some consumers, is clearly tacked on after the fact and not a key part of creating the movie.

Secondly, the number of titles available for even the most successful game platform is orders of magnitude fewer than titles for a successful video format - and the number of relevant ones is fewer still due to the rapid advance of technology. A thirty-year old movie like Close Encounters can still sell for a premium on DVD, but a thirty-year old video game generally doesn't hold up as well. If either of these were to change I'd expect retailers to start pushing for a game platform standard.
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post #16 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 11:41 AM
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One point that has ever been broached (I think) is MS would have been much better off not developing the XBox.

They lost billions on the Xbox. If they instead simply made games for the PS2, their software background would have allowed them to become one of the pre-eminent game developers. Halo would have sold many more copies, ad they would have made a crap load of money, rather than losing it.

But MS doesn't need the money. The losses from the XBox were a rounding error to their bottom line.

They aren't in it to make money, they are in it for bragging rights and prestige.

The studios on the other hand, are in it to make money.
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post #17 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 11:45 AM
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Quote:


Why don't studio produce for both formats?

Why indeed.

Simple really. Sony couldn't afford to have this war be decided by the consumers. Blu Ray would have been dead out of the gate if all studios started out neutral.

This war was decided by power plays, studio pay-offs, and incentives - NOT consumers. Which is why I won't participate in HDM anymore. We were all bamboozled, lied to, and manipulated.

Anyone that claims the consumer decided anything in this war, needs their head checked.
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post #18 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 11:55 AM
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Why don't studio produce for both formats?

Why didn't hey just come up with one format from day one?

both good questions and both equally irrelevant at this stage of the game.
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post #19 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 11:58 AM
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the power has always been with the consumer if we do not buy it they will quit making
it if we buy enough of it they will make more if it goes stagnant then they will try and
make it more appealing or improved simple economics.
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post #20 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

the power has always been with the consumer if we do not buy it they will quit making
it if we buy enough of it they will make more if it goes stagnant then they will try and
make it more appealing or improved simple economics.

No matter how many times I hear that, it still makes me laugh... Priceless...

Chris


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post #21 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 12:06 PM
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The most of the customers have chosen Blu-ray as the format choice for optical media. which is proven everywhere around the globe.

This was decided by customers, most software sold, how much more proof does 1 need?

in the end the customers that voted the most with their wallet won. no powerplay no studio pay off no incentives would ever change that.

we the customers around the globe have chosen bluray as the new optical format of choice.

however about Universal and Paramount i am not sure yet. will they truelly go neutral and chose the majority of customers choice? time will tell. Paramount already proved to go against customers choice. lets see what their next step will be.

still i have a good feeling about Universal to go neutral soon. it would not look good in the eyes of their customers when they dont go neutral. Universal is simply to big for this small war. they have theme parks, there is mtv etc.

what will they tell the people by not going neutral? like eh yeah we are sorry most studios support customers choice, most people bought bluray movies, but us and paramount chose our own selfish reasons for not going for the winning format.

that just does not look right in the big picture and could really hurt them in the near future.
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post #22 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 12:09 PM
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The trouble is the longer this war continues the fewer people will jump on board. Media software works a lot different than breakfast cereal (or actually, maybe it does).

Almost all breakfast cereal comes in similar cardboard boxes with plastic pouches inside containing the cereal (easier on the retailer and their floorspace and it looks visually appealing to the masses) the choice is in the content inside said boxes. Now the next choice is in the type of milk you use and the size and style of bowl you pour the cereal into and the scooping mechanism to enjoy it.

The same is true with HD media... there's now going to be one container: Blu-ray and the choice people have is the content on said medium. It's easier for the retailer to make room for ONE type of media and there's less confusion and it looks visually appealing. The choice is in the type of TV display, surround decoder, speakers and player you want to use to enjoy what's inside the medium.

Perhaps it's an apt analogy after all.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #23 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schaubless View Post

if you bet the winning horse along with the losing horse you still lose.

If you sell saddles, what's wrong with selling a saddle to both the winning horse and the loosing horse? If nothing else, that's twice as many sales!
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post #24 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by d3code View Post

The most of the customers have chosen Blu-ray as the format choice for optical media. which is proven everywhere around the globe.

So, you are claiming when a title is offered in both Blu-ray and HD DVD, most people buy the Blu-ray version? Do you know the ratio? Is it 51 to 49? Is it 90 to 10?

And Blu-ray players have outsold HD DVD players? Can you quote the November/December sales numbers for the players?
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post #25 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaltA View Post

So, you are claiming when a title is offered in both Blu-ray and HD DVD, most people buy the Blu-ray version? Do you know the ratio? Is it 51 to 49? Is it 90 to 10?

And Blu-ray players have outsold HD DVD players? Can you quote the November/December sales numbers for the players?

business looks at quarters and year to year profits at least all that i have
worked for.
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post #26 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 12:30 PM
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Because the over all cost of Blu-Ray from production to retail is cheaper for the studio and the 1% of people buying HD media have indicated that they...

a) don't care about special features (which is one of the things that makes the overall cost of HD-DVD higher)
b) are willing to pay nearly double for titles for higher quality video and audio.

I wonder how much it will cost to replace all those in mini-van sd-dvd players with blu-ray players or if it might just cost less to buy the kids movies in both blu-ray and sd-dvd. Gee whiz, if only if someone had come up with a way to put both high def and standard def movies on the same disc.

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post #27 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEC2 View Post

Which is why you can only buy one kind of cereal, one kind of video game, one kind of television...

Give me a break. There are three viable video game platforms, 20 different brands of 42" LCD at Best Buy, and 36643 types of cereal at the market.

Retailers will make room for product that SELLS.

MEC2

Sorry, that argument just doesnt hold up.

Multiple manufacturers of TVs as well as differnt types of TVs, as well as multiple gaming platforms are proven sustainable business models.


Multiple movie formats that do essentially the same thing are not.
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post #28 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivartk View Post

money.

I have to agree. Studios are getting some kind of cost advantage with their contracts to support only ONE format.

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post #29 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jqlorenz View Post

I think this is an easy answer, its all about the consumer. There is a general thought that the masses will be unwilling to jump in and buy a player if they believe there are two competing formats and that one will win in the long term. They don't want to be disappointed and repeat what happened with Beta.

I believe Warner mentioned this in their press release.. they want a format to be decided so hopefully the market can start growing faster once a format wins. Sure two formats could be supported but its harder convincing people this will work long term.

Exactly, and nobody has improved on this explanation. However, several have tried to derail the actual topic of the thread with more recycled format war stuff. Again.
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post #30 of 198 Old 01-13-2008, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsohng View Post

Why do the studios care so much about who wins the HD format wars?

Some of the studios have technical reasons for preferring one format over the other but some probably didn't really care which HD format won (Paramount and Warner).


Quote:
Originally Posted by jsohng View Post

Why force consumers to choose between Blu Ray player, HD DVD player, or any other HDM media player/hardware?

Well it does cost more to product in multiple video formats which is why we have always ended up with one video standard being dominant. After all with thousands of different movies being released there would be a much higher costs if they were released on multiple formats in terms of production, storage, and retail.
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