Panamorph DC1 Lens - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 54 Old 09-29-2010, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
glennQNYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Russell at Panamorph just forwarded me info and a couple of pictures of their new flagship lens, the DC1 that debuted at CEDIA this year.
DC1 lens, automated sled, and attachment kit $9995 MSRP.

glennQ



New enhanced performance lens with improved cosmetics, sealed optics, and the same plug and play ease of install that Panamorph has become famous for. The DC1 offers state of the art, industry leading performance as the highest quality Horizontal Expansion lens in the industry.

dream in algorithms

twitter
glennQNYC is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 54 Old 09-30-2010, 06:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ca1ore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 1,771
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Nice! Looks pretty, I wonder how much better it performs (if at all) versus the 480?

Certainty and conviction are a sure sign you don't know what you're talking about! The world is not black and white, rather shades of grey!
ca1ore is offline  
post #3 of 54 Old 10-05-2010, 10:16 PM
Member
 
Monster0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
From what I hear, it's an improvement over the UH480 in performance and in a "blind comparison test" (no pun intended) was chosen over the ISCO III lens.

WANTED: (1) M&K MP-150  IN-WALL speaker. (Preferably in Black color)

Monster0 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 54 Old 10-17-2010, 04:59 PM
Senior Member
 
piratemonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Waxhaw, NC
Posts: 229
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Hi guys.....this bad boy is out of my budget and recently saw the FVX200J which fits the JVC PJ's nicely

Just wondering if anyone has seen a test comparison between the 480, DC1 and 200
Interested to know how this FVX200J compares?
piratemonkey is offline  
post #5 of 54 Old 11-02-2010, 03:12 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Nasty N8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lake in the hills IL
Posts: 1,032
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
The 200 is a Vertical compression lens so it works very differently. I would make sure it works for your setup first and see it for your self. I had the 85 VC (plastic version of the 200) which was a great starter lens but the difference in the 480 is amazing. Not sure how the 200 compares to it but I would rec. starting with a good Horizontal Expansion lens if you can afford to well worth it esp for a projector in the class of the JVC's.

www.NastyPerformance.com

10,000 Watts, custom built speakers, 10' CIH screen = Holy Crap
Nasty N8 is offline  
post #6 of 54 Old 11-05-2010, 06:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mtbdudex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 6,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked: 1514
I notice they changed the mtg brkt design so the center of mass/weight of the lens is also the center of attaching point, that should help solve the "drooping" issue I and others have notice with their current design.
Thread from 4/6/09 here:
Panamorph UH380/480 lens "droop".....

The current design the center of mass/weight is forward of the attaching point, which contributes towars its tendency to droop over time.
Plus very little bearing surface for clamping force/friction to keep that drooping from happening. No, lock washers for the 380/480 are NOT the answer, w/o major re-tooling that case they'd need to increase the lens side bearing surface and the hand twist knob bearing surface....but I'm getting off topic this thread sorry.....
mtbdudex is offline  
post #7 of 54 Old 02-24-2011, 04:18 PM
Advanced Member
 
Gotchaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 766
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Anybody have this lens yet? Thoughts?
Gotchaa is offline  
post #8 of 54 Old 02-24-2011, 05:37 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 23,130
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4156 Post(s)
Liked: 2388
$10k seems like an awful lot for what looks like a prism lens.
stanger89 is offline  
post #9 of 54 Old 02-24-2011, 05:54 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
HogPilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Good Ol' US of A
Posts: 2,787
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

$10k seems like an awful lot for what looks like a prism lens.

Keep in mind that price is 1) MSRP, not street, and 2) for the lens, sled, and attachment plate. The lens alone probably only accounts for 1/2 to 2/3 of that.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

HogPilot is offline  
post #10 of 54 Old 02-24-2011, 06:39 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 23,130
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4156 Post(s)
Liked: 2388
IIRC the sled for the UH480 was only about $2K, and even if the plate is $1k, I think that's still ballpark MSRP of the ISCO III, and quite a bit more than Prismasonic or AB's cylindrical-based lenses.
stanger89 is offline  
post #11 of 54 Old 02-24-2011, 11:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
Gotchaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 766
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

IIRC the sled for the UH480 was only about $2K, and even if the plate is $1k, I think that's still ballpark MSRP of the ISCO III, and quite a bit more than Prismasonic or AB's cylindrical-based lenses.

It seems they just started shipping and if it's reported to be on par with the ISCO it could be a better deal. So who's going to buy one and report back to us
Gotchaa is offline  
post #12 of 54 Old 02-25-2011, 12:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
Gotchaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 766
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster0 View Post

From what I hear, it's an improvement over the UH480 in performance and in a "blind comparison test" (no pun intended) was chosen over the ISCO III lens.

That's what Panamorph ppl are saying, that it was developed as a competitor for the ISCO market and they believe they have a better lens, it's on par and slightly bettter...that is a bold statement given everything I've read/heard and seen about the ISCO IIIL...
Gotchaa is offline  
post #13 of 54 Old 02-26-2011, 09:59 AM
Scott Horton, techht.com
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,733
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 225 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Doens't matter how shiny and curved themy make the case, it still doesn't look as good as a real lens
GetGray is offline  
post #14 of 54 Old 02-26-2011, 01:34 PM
Advanced Member
 
Gotchaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 766
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Doens't matter how shiny and curved themy make the case, it still doesn't look as good as a real lens

Are you talking cosmetics or performance of this lens to a real cylindrical?
Gotchaa is offline  
post #15 of 54 Old 02-26-2011, 10:21 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Franin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,403
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3191 Post(s)
Liked: 2088
Good to see another lens out there. It will be interesting to see a side by side comparison with the primasonic and the ISCO III.

_________________________

God Bless!
Equipment: Bose Soundbar; 1951 Philco Model 50-T701 Black and White tabletop TV;Projection :HANIMEX ZOOM 8 MM PROJECTOR
Franin is online now  
post #16 of 54 Old 02-27-2011, 02:10 AM
Advanced Member
 
Gotchaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 766
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post
Good to see another lens out there. It will be interesting to see a side by side comparison with the primasonic and the ISCO III.
Who can do this test? AVS?
Gotchaa is offline  
post #17 of 54 Old 02-27-2011, 03:54 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Franin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,403
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3191 Post(s)
Liked: 2088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotchaa

Who can do this test? AVS?
Someone who is unbiased and has no affiliation to any of the lenses

_________________________

God Bless!
Equipment: Bose Soundbar; 1951 Philco Model 50-T701 Black and White tabletop TV;Projection :HANIMEX ZOOM 8 MM PROJECTOR
Franin is online now  
post #18 of 54 Old 02-27-2011, 05:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CAVX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 8,950
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 374 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotchaa View Post
Are you talking cosmetics or performance of this lens to a real cylindrical?
Performance because it does not change the fact that this new lens is still prisms based with a single cylindrical correction element and therefore has no adjustment of this lens for varying throws.

Mark Techer

I love my Constant Image Height system!
CAVX is offline  
post #19 of 54 Old 02-27-2011, 06:35 PM
Member
 
Knackers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post
Someone who is unbiased and has no affiliation to any of the lenses
The last time this was done, the review got pulled...

Cheers,

Chris
Knackers is offline  
post #20 of 54 Old 02-27-2011, 07:00 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Franin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,403
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3191 Post(s)
Liked: 2088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knackers

The last time this was done, the review got pulled...

Cheers,

Chris
Oh well! I'm sure there all good in there own way.

_________________________

God Bless!
Equipment: Bose Soundbar; 1951 Philco Model 50-T701 Black and White tabletop TV;Projection :HANIMEX ZOOM 8 MM PROJECTOR
Franin is online now  
post #21 of 54 Old 02-27-2011, 11:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
Gotchaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 766
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

Performance because it does not change the fact that this new lens is still prisms based with a single cylindrical correction element and therefore has no adjustment of this lens for varying throws.

I would want to see a shootout before making any snap judgments based on the lens design.
Gotchaa is offline  
post #22 of 54 Old 02-28-2011, 06:47 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CAVX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 8,950
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 374 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotchaa View Post

I would want to see a shootout before making any snap judgments based on the lens design.

OK let me put it this way. Prisms don't have a focal length due to their flat surfaces. In fact, a prism pair anamorphic lens can only focus in one plain at one time - either V or H and this is often referred to as astigmatism. You can't have both without the assistance of an astigmatism corrector.

Typically, these are single lenses that have a defined focal length or "sweet spot". Because these are single, fixed optics, there is no adjustments.

If you take the earlier version of this lens, (UH380~UH480), the correction element was specified for certain throws - IE element A: 14.5~17 feet. So where exactly is the true sweet spot for this lens? Is it 14.5 or 17 feet or some where in between?

Outside of this range, you require a different correction lens or the lens may not focus. Panamorph offered 5 different versions (A~E) for the UH380~UH480 and I am guessing that applies for this lens as well.

Now compare this to a true cylindrical lens (which I did BTW and why I am sold on the true cylindrical design) with continuous adjustable astigmatism, and you can have the "sweet spot" at ANY point in its operating range. By "sweet spot" I am referring to absolute focus in both plains and the same time. And that "sweet spot" can be dialed in at ANY distance within the lenses' user range.

Mark Techer

I love my Constant Image Height system!
CAVX is offline  
post #23 of 54 Old 02-28-2011, 05:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
Gotchaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 766
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

OK let me put it this way. Prisms don't have a focal length due to their flat surfaces. In fact, a prism pair anamorphic lens can only focus in one plain at one time - either V or H and this is often referred to as astigmatism. You can't have both without the assistance of an astigmatism corrector.

Typically, these are single lenses that have a defined focal length or "sweet spot". Because these are single, fixed optics, there is no adjustments.

If you take the earlier version of this lens, (UH380~UH480), the correction element was specified for certain throws - IE element A: 14.5~17 feet. So where exactly is the true sweet spot for this lens? Is it 14.5 or 17 feet or some where in between?

Outside of this range, you require a different correction lens or the lens may not focus. Panamorph offered 5 different versions (A~E) for the UH380~UH480 and I am guessing that applies for this lens as well.

Now compare this to a true cylindrical lens (which I did BTW and why I am sold on the true cylindrical design) with continuous adjustable astigmatism, and you can have the "sweet spot" at ANY point in its operating range. By "sweet spot" I am referring to absolute focus in both plains and the same time. And that "sweet spot" can be dialed in at ANY distance within the lenses' user range.

That makes sense, so cylindrical lenses are more flexible and accurate. So what will be interesting is too see how the DC-1's sweet spot compares with the ISCO's at the same range, that would be a good test.
Gotchaa is offline  
post #24 of 54 Old 02-28-2011, 07:54 PM
Advanced Member
 
quack724's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 654
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

OK let me put it this way. Prisms don't have a focal length due to their flat surfaces. In fact, a prism pair anamorphic lens can only focus in one plain at one time - either V or H and this is often referred to as astigmatism. You can't have both without the assistance of an astigmatism corrector.

Typically, these are single lenses that have a defined focal length or "sweet spot". Because these are single, fixed optics, there is no adjustments.

If you take the earlier version of this lens, (UH380~UH480), the correction element was specified for certain throws - IE element A: 14.5~17 feet. So where exactly is the true sweet spot for this lens? Is it 14.5 or 17 feet or some where in between?

Outside of this range, you require a different correction lens or the lens may not focus. Panamorph offered 5 different versions (A~E) for the UH380~UH480 and I am guessing that applies for this lens as well.

Now compare this to a true cylindrical lens (which I did BTW and why I am sold on the true cylindrical design) with continuous adjustable astigmatism, and you can have the "sweet spot" at ANY point in its operating range. By "sweet spot" I am referring to absolute focus in both plains and the same time. And that "sweet spot" can be dialed in at ANY distance within the lenses' user range.


Not to hijack or change topic on this thread but is the new Prismasonic "true cylindrical" with continuous adjustable astigmatism?
quack724 is offline  
post #25 of 54 Old 02-28-2011, 08:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CAVX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 8,950
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 374 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotchaa View Post

That makes sense, so cylindrical lenses are more flexible and accurate. So what will be interesting is too see how the DC-1's sweet spot compares with the ISCO's at the same range, that would be a good test.

To make that happen, Panamorph would need to disclose the "sweet spot" so that the tester can make sure the lens is positioned at the correct distance from the screen. See, this is now different to the traditional TR though that still applies.

So assuming someone could acquire both the DC1 and the ISCO III and set them up at the "sweet spot" the DCI requires, there then comes the point of the optical design - prisms Vs cylindrical lenses.

There are three main types of distortions - Chromatic Aberration, Astigmatism and Grid Distortion.

CA is the most offensive and seemly the easiest to correct for - two glass types with different RI (cemented) have been used for years.

Astigmatism is the next and should the DC1 be placed at the "sweet spot" should produce an image with identical sharpness to the ISCO III.

Which leads us to Grid and geometry distortions. A lens like the ISCO III has curved surfaces and these surfaces are not a single radius. This is done to correct for geometric errors as the light is magnified. In other words, even though the lens is designed to be a 1.33x HE, at the edges the image could be 1.42x.

The limit to flat faces on a prisms means that GD can not be corrected for. I believe it is possible to design a prism that has a curved face so that it does not suffer this.

GD can also be corrected by using a curved screen.

Mark Techer

I love my Constant Image Height system!
CAVX is offline  
post #26 of 54 Old 02-28-2011, 08:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CAVX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 8,950
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 374 Post(s)
Liked: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by quack724 View Post

Not to hijack or change topic on this thread but is the new Prismasonic "true cylindrical" with continuous adjustable astigmatism?

Yes it is and it shall be interesting to see how that one pans out.

Mark Techer

I love my Constant Image Height system!
CAVX is offline  
post #27 of 54 Old 03-01-2011, 05:18 PM
Advanced Member
 
Gotchaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 766
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

To make that happen, Panamorph would need to disclose the "sweet spot" so that the tester can make sure the lens is positioned at the correct distance from the screen. See, this is now different to the traditional TR though that still applies.

So assuming someone could acquire both the DC1 and the ISCO III and set them up at the "sweet spot" the DCI requires, there then comes the point of the optical design - prisms Vs cylindrical lenses.

There are three main types of distortions - Chromatic Aberration, Astigmatism and Grid Distortion.

CA is the most offensive and seemly the easiest to correct for - two glass types with different RI (cemented) have been used for years.

Astigmatism is the next and should the DC1 be placed at the "sweet spot" should produce an image with identical sharpness to the ISCO III.

Which leads us to Grid and geometry distortions. A lens like the ISCO III has curved surfaces and these surfaces are not a single radius. This is done to correct for geometric errors as the light is magnified. In other words, even though the lens is designed to be a 1.33x HE, at the edges the image could be 1.42x.

The limit to flat faces on a prisms means that GD can not be corrected for. I believe it is possible to design a prism that has a curved face so that it does not suffer this.

GD can also be corrected by using a curved screen.

CAVX, did some research and asked Panamorph some of these questions, would appreciate your feedback.

It is my understanding that purely cylindrical lenses compensate for astigmatism by balancing the curvatures of their primary elements against the spacing between them for a certain throw distance. If the throw distance in question is different than the designed throw distance, astigmatism requires an adjustment. Since you can’t change the curvatures of the cylindrical elements you can change the distance separating those elements, and that is what the focus ring does

According to Panamorph, the sweet spot for the DC-1 and UH480 is between 14.5 and 17 ft, outside of that is when you need the correctors.

It's my understanding that there is also a sweet spot for a cylindrical lens.

Quote:


Having adjustment of focus, etc, does NOT change the sweet spot of the lens, it compensates for when you operate outside of the sweet spot. The sweet spot of purely cylindrical lenses applies to both the throw distance and lateral alignment.



According to Panamorph, their hybrid technology is less sensitive (ie has a larger sweet spot) both for throw distance (against a fixed cylindrical) and lateral alignment. This is why purely cylindrical solutions need to have the adjustment – it goes out of correction faster than the Panamorph hybrid design.

Quote:


The overriding argument here is that somehow you get a “better” picture with a cylindrical lens because you can adjust the focus to whatever the position of the projector is but because the prismatic/hybrid solution has a broader sweet spot to begin with it essentially amounts to the same thing. On top of that how often will you need to re-focus the lens once it is set in place??

Gotchaa is offline  
post #28 of 54 Old 03-01-2011, 05:26 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Alan Gouger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,941
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by quack724 View Post

Not to hijack or change topic on this thread but is the new Prismasonic "true cylindrical" with continuous adjustable astigmatism?

Yes it is. You also have the option of motorized focus/astig adjustment.
Alan Gouger is offline  
post #29 of 54 Old 03-01-2011, 05:30 PM
Scott Horton, techht.com
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,733
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 225 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monster0 View Post

From what I hear, it's an improvement over the UH480 in performance and in a "blind comparison test" (no pun intended) was chosen over the ISCO III lens.

The should get some reviewers who can see then
GetGray is offline  
post #30 of 54 Old 03-01-2011, 07:01 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Franin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,403
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3191 Post(s)
Liked: 2088
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

The should get some reviewers who can see then

Lol I like that. 80 year old pensioners who are half blind don't count

_________________________

God Bless!
Equipment: Bose Soundbar; 1951 Philco Model 50-T701 Black and White tabletop TV;Projection :HANIMEX ZOOM 8 MM PROJECTOR
Franin is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply 2.35:1 Constant Image Height Chat

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off