What does it mean when I have to use lens shift when zooming from 16:9 to 2.35:1? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 28 Old 12-25-2014, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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What does it mean when I have to use lens shift when zooming from 16:9 to 2.35:1?

Okay, so I'm using a scope screen with an Epson 5010, which means I have to manually zoom/focus by hand when switching between ratio's. But in addition to zoom/focus, I also have to use lens shift, and I'm just wondering if that's normal. If it's not normal, I'd like to know what it means.

Here's what happens if I have the image setup for 16:9, and then remove the masks and zoom out for scope:



So by the time I have it zoomed at the appropriate size to fill the scope screen, the image has shifted down about 10% and to the right about 3-4%.

I've been thinking about switching to a projector with lens memory, such as the Panasonic ae8000u, but my understanding is that the lens memory only uses the zoom and focus, not the shift. So if the same thing happens with the 8000, then it would still not be an automatic process switching back and forth. The zooming and focusing by hand isn't nearly as annoying as having to shift the image every time, since the shift controls aren't all that precise and can be a bit jumpy.

So is the shifting of the image normal during zoom? Or does this mean there is some kind of an issue (perhaps with my screen/projector placement?)

Thanks!

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post #2 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 06:34 AM
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It's normal unless you have your projector mounted such that it's in the exact center of your screen. The fact that it's also shifting to the right means it must be off center as well?
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post #3 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JDLIVE View Post
It's normal unless you have your projector mounted such that it's in the exact center of your screen. The fact that it's also shifting to the right means it must be off center as well?
So if I switch to a PT-AE8000U and want to use the lens memory feature, will I still be stuck having to fiddle with the screen shift controls every time I switch ratios, unless I have the projector mounted exactly in the vertical and horizontal center of the screen???

I guess getting it exactly horizontally centered wouldn't be a big deal, but it would have to hang down quite a ways to be vertically centered. If that's the case, then I probably won't bother switching to a model with "lens memory".

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post #4 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 08:39 AM
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IIRC the lens memory controls will automatically do the zoom and lens shift, so if you can get it centered horizontally then you should be good to go. I agree not many people will have it centered vertically, that's usually not practical. Most will have it mounted above center, but that causes the zoom to shift the picture and thus the need for the vertical shift to get it re-centered.
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post #5 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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If somebody who actually owns or has used the PT-AE8000u can confirm that the lens memory feature also includes lens shift, that would be greatly appreciated!

EDIT: Bad news. I just found the following information in the "Sound and Vision" review of the PT-AE8000u:

"On a 100-inch-diagonal (87-inch-wide), 16:9 screen, the Panasonic’s minimum and maximum throw distances are 117 and 236 inches. The lens has motorized zoom and focus, with six available memories for different settings. But the lens shift is manual. When you alter the zoom setting, the center of the picture shifts vertically and must be manually readjusted. This makes the lens memories less than useful for their two most obvious applications: to accommodate a 2.35:1 screen for a constant-height setup without the need for an anamorphic lens, and for use with two different screens (such as one for 2D and a separate, highergain model for 3D)."

That's a serious bummer, and I'm surprised it's not mentioned more prominently in other reviews when discussing the lens memory feature. To me, it makes the lens memory feature little more than a gimmick. I've never cared for Panasonic's joystick lens shift control when I've used it on an older model, but I've never used an 8000.

So it looks like there's no point in going to the Panasonic. I know there are some other projectors out there with lens memory, but they are much more expensive, and I don't know if they include motorized lens shift in the lens memory feature.

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post #6 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 10:22 AM
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I have the Panasonic 8000 and it works fine. I never have to readjust when it automatically changes from 16x9 to 2:35:1. You have to set each setting originally and then save it. But after that it works great.
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post #7 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by roland13 View Post
I have the Panasonic 8000 and it works fine. I never have to readjust when it automatically changes from 16x9 to 2:35:1. You have to set each setting originally and then save it. But after that it works great.
Thanks for chiming in. I wonder why Sound & Vision would have had a different experience?

What is your projector placement like? Centered horizontally and/or vertically?

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post #8 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 02:33 PM
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I too have the Panasonic 8000. The way it works, and it really does works well, is when you are in 16x9 the image of the 2.35 image is in the middle of the 16x9 frame. But when you zoom to the 2.35 frame the image needs to be moved up so that it is no longer in the middle of the 16x9 frame but rather at the top of that frame. To clarify When you zoom you are still producing a 16x9 output but the top and bottom of the image is just black bars. The Panasonic will allow you to move the centered image up into the black bars so that it matches the top of your screen. However, your issue of moving to the right is going to be an issue that you will need to correct by centering your lens with the screen more.
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post #9 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post
I too have the Panasonic 8000. The way it works, and it really does works well, is when you are in 16x9 the image of the 2.35 image is in the middle of the 16x9 frame. But when you zoom to the 2.35 frame the image needs to be moved up so that it is no longer in the middle of the 16x9 frame but rather at the top of that frame. To clarify When you zoom you are still producing a 16x9 output but the top and bottom of the image is just black bars. The Panasonic will allow you to move the centered image up into the black bars so that it matches the top of your screen. However, your issue of moving to the right is going to be an issue that you will need to correct by centering your lens with the screen more.
So when you switch back and forth between 16:9 content and 2.35:1 content using lens memory, do you still have to manually shift your picture up/down?

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post #10 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 03:46 PM
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Nope, the projector does everything for me. It even detects the ratio and switches to 2.35 or 16x9
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post #11 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post
Nope, the projector does everything for me. It even detects the ratio and switches to 2.35 or 16x9
Okay, that sounds great. I just wonder why Sound & Vision didn't report the same thing. They very clearly state "When you alter the zoom setting, the center of the picture shifts vertically and must be manually readjusted."

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post #12 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 04:57 PM
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Maybe they missed that feature in the settings. It does take a bit of setting up the first time and you have save your settings in order for it to work. Once dialed in, you'll ask why don't all projectors do this.
@Archaea did a write up of how to set it up correctly because there has been some confusion.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-dig...l#post24731062
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post #13 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the link. So the key piece of information I was missing is that when zooming out to 2.35:1, you can use the digital image shift feature to shift the image up on the LCD panels, and the projector will remember that setting.

Of course, this will cut the top of the 16:9 image off, but since it is just black bars at that point, it doesn't matter. Cool!

So it sounds like the Panasonic will indeed work for me. I hear the Epson may have the tiniest edge in picture quality, but I think it may be worth the trade-off since it's kind of annoying adjusting the projector all the time for different ratios.
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post #14 of 28 Old 12-26-2014, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgar_in_Indy View Post
Thank you for the link. So the key piece of information I was missing is that when zooming out to 2.35:1, you can use the digital image shift feature to shift the image up on the LCD panels, and the projector will remember that setting.

Of course, this will cut the top of the 16:9 image off, but since it is just black bars at that point, it doesn't matter. Cool!

So it sounds like the Panasonic will indeed work for me. I hear the Epson may have the tiniest edge in picture quality, but I think it may be worth the trade-off since it's kind of annoying adjusting the projector all the time for different ratios.
Yep, now you got it. I recently upgraded from an Epson 8500 to the Panasonic and have seen just about every model of Epson in person. Other than the new lasers. They are more the same than different but the newer epsons (5030/6030) have a bit better black levels that give the image just a bit more pop. However, the trade offs are so close you would have to have them both in the same room side by side to really know theres a difference. Room and screen make a pretty big difference in your overall image as well. However, if you are interested in CIH than the Panasonic is a no brainer.
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post #15 of 28 Old 12-27-2014, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgar_in_Indy View Post
Thank you for the link. So the key piece of information I was missing is that when zooming out to 2.35:1, you can use the digital image shift feature to shift the image up on the LCD panels, and the projector will remember that setting.

Of course, this will cut the top of the 16:9 image off, but since it is just black bars at that point, it doesn't matter. Cool!

So it sounds like the Panasonic will indeed work for me. I hear the Epson may have the tiniest edge in picture quality, but I think it may be worth the trade-off since it's kind of annoying adjusting the projector all the time for different ratios.
Just be aware that, from what I recall, you need your projector placed no higher than your screen edge for this to work. If your screen is higher than the edge of the screen this doesn't work.
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post #16 of 28 Old 01-05-2015, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post
I too have the Panasonic 8000. The way it works, and it really does works well, is when you are in 16x9 the image of the 2.35 image is in the middle of the 16x9 frame. But when you zoom to the 2.35 frame the image needs to be moved up so that it is no longer in the middle of the 16x9 frame but rather at the top of that frame. To clarify When you zoom you are still producing a 16x9 output but the top and bottom of the image is just black bars. The Panasonic will allow you to move the centered image up into the black bars so that it matches the top of your screen. However, your issue of moving to the right is going to be an issue that you will need to correct by centering your lens with the screen more.
I presume that this applies to any zoom "level"? E.g. this would work for keeping CIH for 1.85:1, 2.35:1, and 16x9? I would love that because I want to paint the black bars on a 2.35:1 aspect ratio "screen" (which is my wall) because I just can't get over it, and I'm willing to accept the tradeoff of having a smaller than necessary screen for 1.85:1 or 16x9 for CIH as long as I don't have to do any vertical lens shifting when changing aspect ratios. I don't mind horizontal shifting since CIH will mean that the 1:85:1 and 16x9 images fall within the 2:35:1 screen.
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post #17 of 28 Old 01-08-2015, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by impetigo View Post
I don't mind horizontal shifting since CIH will mean that the 1:85:1 and 16x9 images fall within the 2:35:1 screen.

Correct the 16:9 image doesnt need to be perfectly centered since it has the wide freedom of the 2.35:1 screen to play with (unless the screen has side masking).


So horisontal shifting is for 2.35:1 image since the image must be centered on the horizontal plane. But can be digital adjusted on the vertical.


And vertical shift is used for the 16:9 image since it must be centered on the vertical plane but can shift horizontal on the 2.35:1 screen.
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post #18 of 28 Old 02-16-2015, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgar_in_Indy View Post
So the key piece of information I was missing is that when zooming out to 2.35:1, you can use the digital image shift feature to shift the image up on the LCD panels, and the projector will remember that setting.
Correct, although the digital image shift feature has a relatively limited range (240 pixels for 2.40:1 aspect ratio). If the projector is mounted higher than the top of the CIH screen, the vertical shift when switching between 16:9 and 2.40:1 would exceed that range, and you would need to use the (manual) lens shift.

The newer JVC projectors include power zoom, power focus and power lens shift and will allow the projector to be mounted close to the ceiling.
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Since starting this thread, I have switched to the Panasonic AE8000u and the lens memory features are working great for my scope screen.

I believe the original problem of having to shift my image horizontally when zooming was corrected by aiming the projector a little more to the left.

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post #20 of 28 Old 03-24-2019, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgar_in_Indy View Post
Since starting this thread, I have switched to the Panasonic AE8000u and the lens memory features are working great for my scope screen.

I believe the original problem of having to shift my image horizontally when zooming was corrected by aiming the projector a little more to the left.
Hi Edgar, I too have the Panny 8000 and am renovating my theater at the moment and considering upgrading my screen to a 2.35. How high is your Panny installed in relation to the top edge of your screen? I want to ensure I'm understanding this correctly. The post above from @stanger89 has me concerned as my projector will indeed be installed a bit above the top edge of my screen.

Did you follow the last post that @Archaea posted and it works for you as well? Hoping that's the case and I'm worrying over nothing.

Thanks in advance for the info!

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post #21 of 28 Old 03-24-2019, 03:11 PM
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Hi Edgar, I too have the Panny 8000 and am renovating my theater at the moment and considering upgrading my screen to a 2.35. How high is your Panny installed in relation to the top edge of your screen? I want to ensure I'm understanding this correctly. The post above from @stanger89 has me concerned as my projector will indeed be installed a bit above the top edge of my screen.

Did you follow the last post that @Archaea posted and it works for you as well? Hoping that's the case and I'm worrying over nothing.

Thanks in advance for the info!
The AE8000 does not have motorized lens shift. The electronic shift simply slides the 2.35 image up/down within the 16:9 area, so it has limited range. The mounting limit is very close to the top of the 2.35 screen.

If you already have the projector mounted you should be able to try it out even without the 2.35 screen.
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What does it mean when I have to use lens shift when zooming from 16:9 to 2.35:1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The AE8000 does not have motorized lens shift. The electronic shift simply slides the 2.35 image up/down within the 16:9 area, so it has limited range. The mounting limit is very close to the top of the 2.35 screen.



If you already have the projector mounted you should be able to try it out even without the 2.35 screen.

Thanks, but I’m renovating my theater so my projector is in the box. I’ll check the manual to see what the range/limit is for the electronic shift.

Did you follow the above link to Archana’s post? In it he expressed that he got it working ...

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Originally Posted by texpilot View Post
Did you follow the above link to Archana’s post? In it he expressed that he got it working ...
Yes, I read that post. The process itself no doubt works, as long as the projector height does not exceed the limit. He didn’t mention how high his projector is, relative to the screen.

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
He didn’t mention how high his projector is, relative to the screen.

That is the pearl of wisdom I hope to learn from him soon soon soon!
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Originally Posted by texpilot View Post
That is the pearl of wisdom I hope to learn from him soon soon soon!
Everything I seen so far indicates that the projector needs to be mounted no higher than the top of the screen.
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post #26 of 28 Old 03-29-2019, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by texpilot View Post
That is the pearl of wisdom I hope to learn from him soon soon soon!
That’s what he said in the AE8000 thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaewa View Post
You cannot have your projector mounted geographically above the screen border and still have the auto zoom and focus and masking overthrow functions as intended — rather as another poster stated -- you have to have the projector actually be mounted lower than the top of the projection screen to use it properly. That's in the manual. The outside requirements changes a bit with throw distance - but inside the projector screen's physical dimension of height is required. I had to lower my projector ceiling mount with a longer pole to make it work - and struggled at first trying to make it work otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That’s what he said in the AE8000 thread:
Dominic, many thanks for finding and posting this. Looks like I'm going to have to lower my projector hush box even further if I'm going to make this work. But it might wind up having to be "too low" for the rear seats ...

Maybe I'd be better off upgrading to a 4K JVC projector ... will have to look into the installation requirements to make CIH work with another unit before I decide what to do.

Again, many thanks for the help.
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post #28 of 28 Old 03-30-2019, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texpilot View Post
Dominic, many thanks for finding and posting this. Looks like I'm going to have to lower my projector hush box even further if I'm going to make this work. But it might wind up having to be "too low" for the rear seats ...

Maybe I'd be better off upgrading to a 4K JVC projector ... will have to look into the installation requirements to make CIH work with another unit before I decide what to do.

Again, many thanks for the help.

The JVC projectors have +/-80% vertical lens shift. From screen centre to screen top is 50%, so another 30% over that. Note that the “top” refers to the 16:9 screen, which is higher than the scope screen.

Howeve, they don’t have automatic detection of aspect ratio like the Panasonic does.
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