2.35 published image in disk? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 14 Old 09-16-2019, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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2.35 published image in disk?

I've been reading around for a while, but can't seem to find a direct answer to a question of mine. The experts live here, so I'm hoping for some clarification.

It's well known that anamorphic on bluray has at least a common publishing format of printing the cinemascope 2.35 image on the disk, surrounded by top and bottom black bars. The projector can mathematically expand to fill the screen vertically, with the lens expanding horizontally to fill out a full 2.35 screen. However, that still means that the source material of the projected resolution originates from the dimensions of that small (810 out of 1020) published frame. The rest of what comes from the projector lens is mathematic enhancement. Might as well stay with standard DVD at that point, which was, what, 720?

So here's the question. As film did so masterfully in handling anamorphic, does bluray ever publish (in a separate file, of course) the full 2.35 image just squeezed horizontally, and plunked onto the *entire* 1.75 frame to be simply re-expanded by an anamorphic lens? Direct and simple.

I'm aware that the publishing arithmetic would probably not come out completely even, but I wouldn't be surprised if the resulting loss of image on the sides to make up for math slop would be tiny, cut off at printing. Betcha less that a half of one percent. The result would still be microscopic closeness to the original 2.35 at full resolution. Probably only the director him/herself would even know. Full frame usage would mean no published black bars, full 1020 resolution with *virtually no original image loss*, and no artificial vertical stretching necessary. Brightness *may* need additional bulb wattage. Low setting, high setting. Maybe. Doubt it, actually.

I'm told that this is how they did it on DVD. (don't know, to be honest: rumors...)

So what's the answer? Does this exist on bluray? True full full frame anamorphic printed on the disk itself? Thanks.
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post #2 of 14 Old 09-17-2019, 11:50 AM
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Nope.

Animorphic encoded DVDs existed but this technology did not follow to Blu Ray.
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post #3 of 14 Old 09-17-2019, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jHenk View Post
Might as well stay with standard DVD at that point, which was, what, 720?


I'm told that this is how they did it on DVD. (don't know, to be honest: rumors...)
Here's my understanding: DVD storage format was 720x480 which is actually 1.5:1, anamorphic or not. It was scaled in the player to fit televisions which were offered in both 4x3 and 16x9 at the time. For 4x3 it was scaled at .91. and for 16x9 scaled at 1.21 (if anamorphic). 4x3 TVs were generally 640x480 and 16x9 was up to 1920x1080, but maybe some lesser scale like 1366x768. If a film was anamorphic on disc it stretched the 1.78:1 image taller to use all the available lines to store image, which allowed more detail when scaled to fit on a higher resolution screen.

Blu-Ray cropped down to 1920x804 still crushes full resolution 720x480 dvd, and even moreso 720x357, which is the actual stored resolution of a 2.39 film on anamorphic dvd. The bluray is 6 times the detail, even not using anamorphic technology. 4k UHD literally quadruples that.
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post #4 of 14 Old 09-17-2019, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Question answered. Thanks Scott. Little late now, but I just think they went a route that could have been a lot better. Think I'll go whine now.
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post #5 of 14 Old 09-17-2019, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, and Brian. Thank you as well.
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post #6 of 14 Old 09-18-2019, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jHenk View Post
So what's the answer? Does this exist on bluray? True full full frame anamorphic printed on the disk itself? Thanks.
As others have said, there is no such thing on Blu Ray.

However, there was a start-up that attempted to persuade the industry to adopt just such a mechanism - Folded Space. It was a great concept, but unfortunately there were just too many moving pieces to make it happen (you'd have to get simultaneous support from studios, publishers, the post production chain, and home theater equipment manufacturers). Decent write-up here at High Def Digest.
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post #7 of 14 Old 09-19-2019, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
As others have said, there is no such thing on Blu Ray.
I don't suppose they cleaned up this omission on 4K disks? (cringe)
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post #8 of 14 Old 09-20-2019, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jHenk View Post
I don't suppose they cleaned up this omission on 4K disks? (cringe)
No anamorphic enhancement on 4k either.

4k already has so much resolution that we've exceeded the point of diminishing returns. Anamorphic enhancement wouldn't gain you much, to be honest.

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post #9 of 14 Old 09-20-2019, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
No anamorphic enhancement on 4k either.

4k already has so much resolution that we've exceeded the point of diminishing returns. Anamorphic enhancement wouldn't gain you much, to be honest.
I agree in terms of resolution with 4k. The biggest driver in terms of anamorphic enhancement at this point in projection HT is the increase in brightness of using the full field. Something of benefit as 4k comes along with HDR. I think it would be a positive for darkening black bars as well.

It might be time for some savvy projector manufacture to add a lens or reflector that puts the full force of the lamp on the scope region of the chip. Making it a selectable mode for when you wish to project IMAX.

It has been done before only the resolution was 1080 and the cost was outrageous.

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post #10 of 14 Old 09-20-2019, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
I agree in terms of resolution with 4k. The biggest driver in terms of anamorphic enhancement at this point in projection HT is the increase in brightness of using the full field. Something of benefit as 4k comes along with HDR. I think it would be a positive for darkening black bars as well.
This can be done now without anamorphic enhancement on the disc using scaling in the projector.

Quote:
It might be time for some savvy projector manufacture to add a lens or reflector that puts the full force of the lamp on the scope region of the chip. Making it a selectable mode for when you wish to project IMAX.

It has been done before only the resolution was 1080 and the cost was outrageous.
IIRC, those 1080p projectors simply masked off the top and bottom of the chip, so the resolution was actually only 1920x800.

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post #11 of 14 Old 09-20-2019, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
IIRC, those 1080p projectors simply masked off the top and bottom of the chip, so the resolution was actually only 1920x800.
No it was the full 1080 tall as they started with a WQXGA chip. They used something they called an integrator rod to vertically compress the light path to just cover the scope area on the chip.

They also had some cool software that would detect the incoming AR and change the projector on the fly between scope the largest AR and keeping all other ARs CIH at 1080.

It was pretty solid IMO except the pricing excluded almost everyone as you could buy something equally as good and an A-lens and still have money in your pocket. Then you had an A-lens to take along to your next projector.

If you truly believe “4k already has so much resolution that we've exceeded the point of diminishing returns.” Then brightness loss is the biggest issue doing the zoom or scaling method of CIH in today’s world of 4k HDR. Then something like this (integrator rod) that could be put in and out of the light path for zooming or just left in for scaling would make a pretty simple CIH solution.

Here is a old video of dVision scope projector and how it worked.


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post #12 of 14 Old 09-20-2019, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jHenk View Post
I don't suppose they cleaned up this omission on 4K disks? (cringe)
I agree with Josh Z in part. With every improvement in resolution we are getting less and less impact on our vision. We that view FP are a pretty small subset of those buying media HD/UHD and we view it most cases more immersive than TV viewers who are in the majority.

Scope TV sets were short lived, and there is something in human nature that feels they need to fill that screen or they are getting ripped off. There is no reason a guy couldn’t buy a 85” 4k HDR flat panel TV and sit 6’ back and have a pretty nice CIH+IMAX viewing experience and at 6’ he could surely share it with one or two others. Then when he has a dozen people for a super bowl party he could pull the couch back and everyone would get a decent image in the room full screen. But no one will do that it is against human nature so they sit back 10’ and watch TV and then complain when a scope movie comes on it is so small in comparison. Scope TV sets failed as everyone thought they were getting ripped off every time they watched TV.

The disc is just a bunch of ones and zeros for the most part and could be formatted a million different ways. The industry for good or bad has painted themselves into a 16:9 corner. So that’s the box everything has to live in. With these amazing resolutions and the ability to zoom as much as I like I no longer care if the box is 4:3 what I would have liked or 2.35:1 that most CIH folks would like. As long as I’m not seeing pixels and can zoom to as immersive as I like and still be as bright as I like, I don’t really worry about what I’m not using.

If there is anything that bothers me anymore it is when a movie like Dunkirk that had a 1.43 AR IMAX theatrical version gets cropped down to 1.78:1 to go on a BD/UHDBD it would fit just fine in my 16:9 projector with black bars to the sides and I could then just zoom it even more for the immersion. I know hardly anyone else in the world would do that so I accept it’s a 16:9 world now and just do what I can.

Bud
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post #13 of 14 Old 09-27-2019, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Had a Mitsubishi HC6800 LCD 1080p projector some years ago that could have a mode selected that would increase the projected image exactly so that the scope image would perfectly fill out the 2.35 area of the same screen used for the original mode 16:9 image (16:9 in the middle, of course) Of course that also meant that the black bars would be projected above and below the scope screen, but fortunately, no-one seemed to notice. Enough black masking above the white, and furniture camouflaging the area below. (whew...) Even considering the resulting low resolution count, it actually didn't look that terrible in a living room with a throw of 10 feet to an eleven foot screen (scope diagonal), all considering...

Will probably be looking for another model that supports the same, but also supports Bluray 3D. I really did enjoy Polar Express when I got to see it in IMAX 3D at the Irvine Edwards IMAX theatre during it's original release. (Irvine, CA) Just wish I could find a way to audition projectors nowadays. Retail outlets with setups besides dumbed-down Magnolias in Best Buys (all without 3D) are gone. Probably rely on reviews, and buy on eBay.
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post #14 of 14 Old 09-28-2019, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
This can be done now without anamorphic enhancement on the disc using scaling in the projector.
IIRC, those 1080p projectors simply masked off the top and bottom of the chip, so the resolution was actually only 1920x800.
Had a Mitsubishi HC6800 LCD 1080p projector some years ago that had a mode that didn't do that, exactly. It would increase the projected 1920x1080 image so that the scope image would perfectly fill out the 2.35 area of the same screen used for the original mode 16:9 image, (16:9 in the middle, of course) But that also meant that the black bars would be projected as well above and below the scope screen Fortunately, no one seemed to notice. Enough black masking above the white, and furniture camouflaging the area below. (whew...) Even considering the resulting low resolution count, it actually didn't look that terrible in a living room with a throw of 10 feet to an eleven foot screen (scope diagonal), all considering...

Will probably be looking for another model that supports the same, but also supports Bluray 3D. I really did enjoy Polar Express when I got to see it in IMAX 3D at the Irvine Edwards IMAX theatre during it's original release. (Irvine, CA) Just wish I could find a way to audition projectors nowadays. Retail outlets with setups besides dumbed-down Magnolias in Best Buys (all without 3D) are gone. Probably rely on reviews, and buy on eBay. Actually, the HC7800D looked pretty good for a 2011 machine. Got pretty good reviews at the time, too.
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