Is old panamorph lenses enough for 4k projectors? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 24 Old 02-04-2020, 02:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Is old panamorph lenses enough for 4k projectors?

What do you think about the combination of adding panamorphs older lenses like the u480 to a the new Sony 4k projector or to Epson's 5050ub faux 4k projector, does the lens take away the benefits of 4k HDR, I read in a blog post that going the zoom options resulted in better picture quality, have you tried both options?

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post #2 of 24 Old 02-04-2020, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Challe77 View Post
What do you think about the combination of adding panamorphs older lenses like the u480 to a the new Sony 4k projector or to Epson's 5050ub faux 4k projector, does the lens take away the benefits of 4k HDR, I read in a blog post that going the zoom options resulted in better picture quality, have you tried both options?
The UH480 cannot pass 4k detail. You need a newer (and more expensive) Panamorph Paladin lens.

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post #3 of 24 Old 02-04-2020, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
The UH480 cannot pass 4k detail. You need a newer (and more expensive) Panamorph Paladin lens.
I’m just curious knowing a little about optics myself.

I’m assuming something comes thru the lens it is not that 4k detail will not pass rather it will have some degree of degradation caused by the degree of purity of the lens system. I would also assume this same degree of degradation was there when the lens was used on a 1080 resolution image, so the edges and spacing of those pixels would have been equally disturbed by the lack of purity. In effect it wasn’t as bad at a pixel level because pixels are double the size.

My question is because it is widely accepted that no one sits adequately close in the era of 4k now to be able to discern a pixel what real downside is there in practical terms to viewing an image produced by one of these lens?

It makes me think about how years ago we used to soft focus or more recently with the 4k pixel shifters the pattern is overlapping.

I know it is a marketing point but is there some real life testing that can be referenced?

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post #4 of 24 Old 02-04-2020, 10:00 AM
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My question is because it is widely accepted that no one sits adequately close in the era of 4k now to be able to discern a pixel what real downside is there in practical terms to viewing an image produced by one of these lens?

It makes me think about how years ago we used to soft focus or more recently with the 4k pixel shifters the pattern is overlapping.

I know it is a marketing point but is there some real life testing that can be referenced?
I used the UH480 with my JVC NX7 and really wanted the lens to work, but it made 4k content I watched visibly softer and duller than not using the lens at all.

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post #5 of 24 Old 02-04-2020, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I used the UH480 with my JVC NX7 and really wanted the lens to work, but it made 4k content I watched visibly softer and duller than not using the lens at all.
Thanks,

When you used to use it with a 1080p projector it looked the same with the lens and without?

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post #6 of 24 Old 02-04-2020, 11:53 AM
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When you used to use it with a 1080p projector it looked the same with the lens and without?
Yes, the UH480 worked fine with a 1080p projector. I used it with my last projector for many years.

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post #7 of 24 Old 02-04-2020, 12:08 PM
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I don’t doubt your review. I just am really wondering what the science is behind it. It is logical putting any additional glass between a projector and the screen at absolute best can only maintain the quality the projector can make on its own and likely as nothing is perfect will have to have some negative effect. What is odd is that that can be selective on how it reacts with one light source and not another.

I wonder if it has something to do with the expanded color gamut of 4k and not really the resolution?

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post #8 of 24 Old 02-04-2020, 01:42 PM
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I believe my ISCO IIIL also softens a little, even when focused, but I find it a pleasant effect as it makes the image that much more like film rather than obviously digital.


There is an artificial sharpness effect created by the existence of pitch between pixels. Like introducing noise tricks you into thinking the picture is sharper... I think a lens may reduce that, losing the illusion of sharpness.

At least that is what helps me sleep at night, not having a Paladin.

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post #9 of 24 Old 02-04-2020, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottAvery View Post
I believe my ISCO IIIL also softens a little, even when focused, but I find it a pleasant effect as it makes the image that much more like film rather than obviously digital.


There is an artificial sharpness effect created by the existence of pitch between pixels. Like introducing noise tricks you into thinking the picture is sharper... I think a lens may reduce that, losing the illusion of sharpness.

At least that is what helps me sleep at night, not having a Paladin.
What you are describing is really what I like about projection well done and that is recreating with digital media and equipment an image that is presented as film-like.

For years and years the goal was to create a film-like setting. I see that changing somewhat with 4k HDR and what I keep reading about expectations for HT and there is now some expectations for what we used to call plasma-like.

I love the images off these new flat panel TVs they are like a glossy photo and are real eye candy, but on the other hand as nice and perfect as they look for TV they don’t remind me at all of a theater experience.

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post #10 of 24 Old 02-04-2020, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottAvery View Post
I believe my ISCO IIIL also softens a little, even when focused, but I find it a pleasant effect as it makes the image that much more like film rather than obviously digital..
^ for the bold part I was going to say "Those are fighting words, sir!" but I do have to agree with you on the second part. The lens gives it a more film like look but I do not think it softens the image "one-damned-bit!".

I have looked at the 4k QBF test image as close to 1" away and I cannot see one bit of softening on my screen. But I did find that one corner of my screen is not absolutely plumb as it goes soft just as it gets to the corner. I loosened the screen and I fixed it but could never get it to stick. Can't see it past 6" away so I drank a shot, or two, of bourbon and totally forgot about it. Until just now...thanks for opening that wound.
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post #11 of 24 Old 02-05-2020, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
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If you are using the zoom method instead does it matter what color the walls has, I'm thinking projecting black bars on a white wall might look distracting?
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post #12 of 24 Old 02-05-2020, 07:29 AM
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If you are using the zoom method instead does it matter what color the walls has, I'm thinking projecting black bars on a white wall might look distracting?
Dark colored walls will do a better job of absorbing the letterbox bars, yes. If painting isn't an option, consider hanging/mounting some black velvet fabric around your screen.
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post #13 of 24 Old 04-26-2020, 11:44 PM - Thread Starter
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bumping this thread again, I read some similar threads where some pointed out that seeing differences in detail has to do which projector they have used the lens with. I have an old optoma hd33 and if I upgrade I plan to upgrade to epson 5050ub and use it together with the lens, have anyone used this combo? I guess the best thing is to use the lens the first time I use the projector, and not comparing it to the picture without the lens ?
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post #14 of 24 Old 04-28-2020, 08:11 AM
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I’m running a old Prismasonic lens I had laying around in a box w/ my Benq 9060 and it works beautifully w/ 4K.
To really get the best 3D image from the 9060 you need to run it w/ the all the chips pixels in play.
No loss of detail or contrast.
Really does the job.
I would imagine each lens has viability thresholds.
Good luck!
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post #15 of 24 Old 05-02-2020, 11:20 AM
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The term "4k anamorphic lens" has about as much meaning as "4k projector screen". It's marketing BS. There are some with a 1.25x stretch instead of 1.33x for actual 4k projectors (I.e. 4096x2160 instead of UHD) but that's all.

There's obviously a quality range too but the difference you find between the cheap and expensive ones are things like edge distortion, chromatic aberrations and light transmission. These would be equally bothersome at 1080p or 2160p.

The vertical stretch on the projector can cause some softening of the image (in 1080p or 4k). Some projectors do this better than others. If someone notices a significantly more blurry image with their anamorphic lens on their new projector, it's most likely to be a compatibility issue. I have an older Panamorph lens and they are tiny. They won't fit a lot of projectors with larger main lenses or ones that have the lens mounted deep into the casing.

I could see my one being an issue on some of Sony's larger 4k models. They're really hard to line up right compared my other larger anamorphic lens.

Incidentally, 4k projectors don't produce more detail than 1080p. More detail comes from higher quality content. There's more detail on a 4k Blu Ray because it runs at over twice the bitrate of a 1080p one. 4k streaming services like Netflix run at half the bitrate of a 1080p Blu Ray. You get significantly more detail watching a 1080p Blu Ray on a 1080p projector than 4k Netflix on a 4k projector.

When 4k came to digital theaters, the sales pitch was "less visible pixels on giant screens". It wasn't about a more detailed image. 2k digital theater movie files run at the same 250mbps bitrate as 4k. UHD Blu Ray has a bit rate of 100mbps VS 40mbps for 1080p Blu Ray VS 15-25mbps for 4K Netflix (depending on how fast your internet connection is and the time of day etc).

If you want to know which version is the highest quality, look at the file size, not the resolution.
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post #16 of 24 Old 05-13-2020, 04:49 PM
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i have tried both the zoom method as well as using my Pro Phoenix to fill a 9 ft Scope screen with my Epson 6040.
No question.
The picture on 4k is sharp as a tack with the A lens and brighter of course.
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post #17 of 24 Old 05-24-2020, 10:28 PM
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i have tried both the zoom method as well as using my Pro Phoenix to fill a 9 ft Scope screen with my Epson 6040.
No question.
The picture on 4k is sharp as a tack with the A lens and brighter of course.
Good to know. How far away from your screen is your 6040?

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post #18 of 24 Old 05-25-2020, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Challe77 View Post
bumping this thread again, I read some similar threads where some pointed out that seeing differences in detail has to do which projector they have used the lens with. I have an old optoma hd33 and if I upgrade I plan to upgrade to epson 5050ub and use it together with the lens, have anyone used this combo? I guess the best thing is to use the lens the first time I use the projector, and not comparing it to the picture without the lens ?
The 5050 doesn't have anamorphic mode. You'd need to upgrade to the 6050 which, at that price point, you may as well go a little more and get the JVC NX5.

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post #19 of 24 Old 05-25-2020, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by john hunter View Post
i have tried both the zoom method as well as using my Pro Phoenix to fill a 9 ft Scope screen with my Epson 6040.
No question.
The picture on 4k is sharp as a tack with the A lens and brighter of course.
I just purchased a refurb 6040. I can't wait to hook it up and do a comparison of lens vs zoom as well. What's your throw distance? Mine will be around 15 feet. I'm going to see what I like better. Realistically, I won't get much $$ for my UH480, so I may as well keep it for those annoying Christopher Nolan movies that constantly change AR. I'm assuming the blacks on the Epson are good enough that the black bars aren't noticeable when you zoom? That would piss me off.

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post #20 of 24 Old 05-26-2020, 03:42 PM
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My throw was about 14ft.
I ran the zoom method for about 3 months until my set up guy was able to run up a mount for the A-lens.
Different fitting from my old Mits.
There was clearly a jump in PQ with the lens.

I also hate those stupid changes in AR.
They just annoy and take you out of the movie.
Good luck.
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post #21 of 24 Old 05-26-2020, 11:29 PM
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My throw was about 14ft.
I ran the zoom method for about 3 months until my set up guy was able to run up a mount for the A-lens.
Different fitting from my old Mits.
There was clearly a jump in PQ with the lens.

I also hate those stupid changes in AR.
They just annoy and take you out of the movie.
Good luck.
Sweet. Yeah, I'll be about the same throw distance once I set things up. Currently I'm using drawer slides to move my lens, but honestly I just keep it in place. When I have 16:9 content, I hit the 4:3 button, and when I have 21:9 content, I hit the lbx button. I'm not sure what the equivalent is on the Epson, but the sharpness is fantastic with the lens in place. What I'm looking forward to is better blacks and the dynamic range compared to my current and very old projector.

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post #22 of 24 Old 05-27-2020, 04:49 PM
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I cannot get the AR settings on the remote to work anamorphically.
You have to go to the menu on the PJ and select anamorphic or horizontal squeeze.
It also has some sort of memory which I have never to able to figure out how it works.
Often a disc menu would come up 16:9 for a 21:9 film which you have played before and when you press start, the PJ changes automatically to Scope.
If you can work it out, let me know
PS. I had some pin cushion effect on one corner.
I cured it with the Epson panel alignment set up.
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post #23 of 24 Old Yesterday, 05:38 AM
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Old enuf fer ya?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...se-review.html



(Panamorph P752 was meant for 4x3 projectors to vertically squeeze down to 16:9. Panamorph II squeezed down 4x3 to 2.35)

Yeah, I had the P752 bought on an AVS Power Buy circa 2001 to use on my Mitsubishi X100 600 lumen XGA 1024x768 pixel LCD. Same pj model used to develop the first Panamorphs here in SE MI
(Shawn Kelly used the Chisolm branded version at the Walled Lake MI facility)

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post #24 of 24 Old Yesterday, 08:58 AM
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Old enuf fer ya?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...se-review.html



(Panamorph P752 was meant for 4x3 projectors to vertically squeeze down to 16:9. Panamorph II squeezed down 4x3 to 2.35)

Yeah, I had the P752 bought on an AVS Power Buy circa 2001 to use on my Mitsubishi X100 600 lumen XGA 1024x768 pixel LCD. Same pj model used to develop the first Panamorphs here in SE MI
(Shawn Kelly used the Chisolm branded version at the Walled Lake MI facility)
Is there any way to recover those linked images? Would love to see how they all looked from almost 20-years ago.
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