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post #31 of 41 Old 03-04-2020, 11:52 AM
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Wouldn’t it be nice if an intermediate media were introduced for projectors with the tone mapping blended in? I don’t see that happening unless commercial theaters wanted a HDR standard and upped their brightness and then needed a special digital media made for them. You would think commercial theaters would be putting on a major effort to include HDR.

I really haven’t studied the issue in great depths, but I wonder if the great directors are speaking out on their feelings about HDR and front projection.

Yes I could go back to the mirror setup I had great success with that for 3 years with 720p resolution. Like an A-lens adding anything to the light path has to be up for the 4k challenge. I would really wonder how much more perfect a mirror setup would have to be given 4k. I haven’t heard of anyone doing it yet.
Honestly I think you'll see more 4K projectors adopting the same strategy JVC has: dynamic tone mapping. This eliminates the reliance of media creators to encode things correctly (they surprisingly do make mistakes here) and works with any source, streaming or physical.

I haven't heard them speak out one way or the other, but they are approving transfers. So they must at least be OK with it. I think one of the things that impresses me most is how good older films that see a 4K HDR makeover look. Apocalypse Now DC, Alien and Blade Runner '82 look absolutely stunning on the format. Better than they every have. The 70mm model work mastered in 4K on Blade Runner is just jaw dropping for something filmed almost 40 years ago.

I'm fairly sure I've read about a couple owners doing a mirror to increase throw distance with 4K. Don't recall any issues. Really a shame Ultra Short Throw doesn't get more attention.

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post #32 of 41 Old 03-04-2020, 12:49 PM
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Honestly I think you'll see more 4K projectors adopting the same strategy JVC has: dynamic tone mapping. This eliminates the reliance of media creators to encode things correctly (they surprisingly do make mistakes here) and works with any source, streaming or physical.

I haven't heard them speak out one way or the other, but they are approving transfers. So they must at least be OK with it. I think one of the things that impresses me most is how good older films that see a 4K HDR makeover look. Apocalypse Now DC, Alien and Blade Runner '82 look absolutely stunning on the format. Better than they every have. The 70mm model work mastered in 4K on Blade Runner is just jaw dropping for something filmed almost 40 years ago.

I'm fairly sure I've read about a couple owners doing a mirror to increase throw distance with 4K. Don't recall any issues. Really a shame Ultra Short Throw doesn't get more attention.
I guess there is two ways of looking at it. One could see it as something like the colorization of B&W movies. Technology made that possible and there were a lot of people that said it was a great improvement over B&W. Others argued it was not what the movie was supposed to look like and the director never had that intent. But then again they are around and not speaking out against conversion to HDR so that could be taken as a sign of approval as we know a lot of directors didn’t like pan n scan and that was something also similar where they were “making it better for TV”.

I agree 4k trends in projectors will follow trends down thru the years with projectors and the things the marketplace likes will trickle down into the lower cost machines. One thing is with resolution getting better they must assume people will want greater immersion if anything and that should compute to larger screens thus shorter throw distances. There is no logical reason why anyone should ever need a mirror setup when you think about it. I don’t think many people want a projector hung in front of them so I would say make throws starting directly over head and then go back from there. I can see longer throws for multi rows and that has kind of been the classical divide in long throw and medium throw for HT. The new UST for me are TV replacement projectors and wont do things like CIH that theater folks want. I do see slightly shorter throws coming along with prices coming down. They have in all the previous techs.

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post #33 of 41 Old 03-04-2020, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again for all the advice and input. As an update on my process, here is where I landed:

I went with the JVC RS1000 and Denon X6500h.
Edit: I also jumped in on the pre-order special for the Paladin-C DCR lens. I realize @Joshz thought I'd be fine without it but I figure I can get setup using the Zoom method and once the new lens ships, I be able to do a comparison. I figured having the full 4K image on the screen can't be worse and with the current pre-order deal, I didn't want to miss out on the special pricing. I will also look to move my seats a few feet closer.
I am looking forward to getting both setup (they already arrived super quick and on Saturday) and installing 4 new speakers in the ceiling. I am now shopping around for an Oppo UDP 203 to serve as my 4K video source.

Thank you and I am looking forward to checking out the new setup.

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post #34 of 41 Old 03-05-2020, 08:10 AM
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I guess there is two ways of looking at it. One could see it as something like the colorization of B&W movies. Technology made that possible and there were a lot of people that said it was a great improvement over B&W. Others argued it was not what the movie was supposed to look like and the director never had that intent. But then again they are around and not speaking out against conversion to HDR so that could be taken as a sign of approval as we know a lot of directors didn’t like pan n scan and that was something also similar where they were “making it better for TV”.
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HDR simply expands the color palette and allows headroom for objects that would naturally be brighter without blowing out the compostiion. It's not fundamentally changing the presentation as colorization does or completely butchering the film like Pan and Scan did. Blu Ray increased the amount of color we could reproduce and the resolution we watched it in. 4K HDR is a very similar next step, I don't really see how anyone could view at as at all similar to colorization or destroying the framing of a film.

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post #35 of 41 Old 03-05-2020, 02:46 PM
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HDR simply expands the color palette and allows headroom for objects that would naturally be brighter without blowing out the compostiion. It's not fundamentally changing the presentation as colorization does or completely butchering the film like Pan and Scan did. Blu Ray increased the amount of color we could reproduce and the resolution we watched it in. 4K HDR is a very similar next step, I don't really see how anyone could view at as at all similar to colorization or destroying the framing of a film.
Take a movie like The Wizard of OZ (1939), all the actors are gone the director is gone and most of the people that saw it in theater are now gone. It plays on TV and the enhanced 4k HDR version is by all reviews touted as a version improved way beyond what anyone could have ever seen in 1939. It has been converted from a movie to a piece of media to compare to anything digital media could do and is intended to be played on the latest flat panel light emitting TV sets. It is by all accounts beautiful and soap opera like in quality. Colors and luminance never seen in 1939.

It might well be better but there is no denying it is greatly altered both in image and sound. The measure of is it better is in the eyes of the beholder it is like polishing a valuable antique and removing all the patina. Some would say colorization applies something new and not part of the original content in the same way.

What matters to all movie properties is that they make money and continue to make money for as long as they can. Here is a movie 81 years old and still making money. The side effect is it is still bringing people happiness and people want to view it polished up and on big flat screen TV sets.

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post #36 of 41 Old 03-05-2020, 08:38 PM
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Take a movie like The Wizard of OZ (1939), all the actors are gone the director is gone and most of the people that saw it in theater are now gone. It plays on TV and the enhanced 4k HDR version is by all reviews touted as a version improved way beyond what anyone could have ever seen in 1939. It has been converted from a movie to a piece of media to compare to anything digital media could do and is intended to be played on the latest flat panel light emitting TV sets. It is by all accounts beautiful and soap opera like in quality. Colors and luminance never seen in 1939.



It might well be better but there is no denying it is greatly altered both in image and sound. The measure of is it better is in the eyes of the beholder it is like polishing a valuable antique and removing all the patina. Some would say colorization applies something new and not part of the original content in the same way.



What matters to all movie properties is that they make money and continue to make money for as long as they can. Here is a movie 81 years old and still making money. The side effect is it is still bringing people happiness and people want to view it polished up and on big flat screen TV sets.


Have you seen the 4K UHD Blu-ray of The Wizard of Oz? The HDR is subtle - certainly not over done. It is not “ soap opera like “ at all. It really looks great.


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post #37 of 41 Old 03-06-2020, 06:10 AM
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Have you seen the 4K UHD Blu-ray of The Wizard of Oz? The HDR is subtle - certainly not over done. It is not “ soap opera like “ at all. It really looks great.


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Craig: I have seen the 4k HDR version of The Wizard of OZ and I watched it on a friends new large flat panel TV with the full HDR WCG intact. I have not seen it with 4K projection with proper tone mapping in place. The TV version is a beautiful piece of eye candy and I think the methods used are similar to what IMAX is doing with IMAX Enhanced. My point really wasn’t if they somehow destroyed the original only that anyone comparing the two presentations 81 years apart would clearly see that some “improvements” have taken place. The original was 1.0 audio if I’m not mistaken and the video was state of the art Technicolor of the day.

The reviews written of the process talk about how far they wanted to go and how they left grain or manufactured it in the Kansas B&W / sepia parts of the movie to retain the old feeling and then expanded the WCG where they wanted to show more range than was possible in 1939, along with added detail in fabrics and textures and such that the technology couldn’t have captured 81 years ago. The curators of the process have worked on all the updates and were very careful not to overstep what they felt was making it too new looking.

I was only trying to point out it is clearly more than just cleaning up scratches and removing dust. There was actual altering happening. I agree it could be good and most people feel it was good. There are also people that feel coloring a B&W movie makes it appeal to more people today. Yes it may not be the same level of change but it is change and it is done for profits.

It is a slippery slope.

I guess I can enjoy the 4k HDR version in one way and also enjoy the closest to original film version I can get in other ways.

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post #38 of 41 Old 03-06-2020, 09:51 AM
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Craig: I have seen the 4k HDR version of The Wizard of OZ and I watched it on a friends new large flat panel TV with the full HDR WCG intact. I have not seen it with 4K projection with proper tone mapping in place. The TV version is a beautiful piece of eye candy and I think the methods used are similar to what IMAX is doing with IMAX Enhanced. My point really wasn’t if they somehow destroyed the original only that anyone comparing the two presentations 81 years apart would clearly see that some “improvements” have taken place. The original was 1.0 audio if I’m not mistaken and the video was state of the art Technicolor of the day.

The reviews written of the process talk about how far they wanted to go and how they left grain or manufactured it in the Kansas B&W / sepia parts of the movie to retain the old feeling and then expanded the WCG where they wanted to show more range than was possible in 1939, along with added detail in fabrics and textures and such that the technology couldn’t have captured 81 years ago. The curators of the process have worked on all the updates and were very careful not to overstep what they felt was making it too new looking.

I was only trying to point out it is clearly more than just cleaning up scratches and removing dust. There was actual altering happening. I agree it could be good and most people feel it was good. There are also people that feel coloring a B&W movie makes it appeal to more people today. Yes it may not be the same level of change but it is change and it is done for profits.

It is a slippery slope.

I guess I can enjoy the 4k HDR version in one way and also enjoy the closest to original film version I can get in other ways.
Ah, but which version is exactly like watching a first run print when the movie first was shown in theaters ? You and I can never know. But I like to think that the 4K UHD disc as seen on my RS4500 with the Lumagen doing the DTM for HDR is about as close as possible. Watching this on a flat panel would not be my preferred method. Actually watching anything on a flat panel is not my preferred method - I don't like the look.
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post #39 of 41 Old 03-06-2020, 01:56 PM
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Ah, but which version is exactly like watching a first run print when the movie first was shown in theaters ? You and I can never know. But I like to think that the 4K UHD disc as seen on my RS4500 with the Lumagen doing the DTM for HDR is about as close as possible. Watching this on a flat panel would not be my preferred method. Actually watching anything on a flat panel is not my preferred method - I don't like the look.
I think we are in agreement and I mainly misspoke suggesting it was embellished to soap opera levels. But surely there is the potential to go there if wanted. It is also true it was taken past what you could have seen at the premier in 1939 even with the best Technicolor film copy made. Color film and sound were amazing feats of the day in movies but nothing like HDR as a color gamut.

All 4k HDR media is primarily a product intended for home consumption and to be played on TVs with 4k HDR abilities The methods of DTM for projection are evolving and most agree projector setups using it are at least double the brightness of SDR projections and SDR projection has always tried to hold on to motion picture film standards.

I didn’t see The Wizard of OZ in a theater in 1939 and if I was that old I doubt my eyes would see the same now. I also don’t doubt the new version is something most will enjoy not knowing the difference.

I personally like you want as close to original film reproduction as I can get and when I read reviews saying see the emerald city in hues of emerald never before possible it makes me think we could be going a little too far.

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post #40 of 41 Old 03-06-2020, 02:25 PM
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I think we are in agreement and I mainly misspoke suggesting it was embellished to soap opera levels. But surely there is the potential to go there if wanted. It is also true it was taken past what you could have seen at the premier in 1939 even with the best Technicolor film copy made. Color film and sound were amazing feats of the day in movies but nothing like HDR as a color gamut.

All 4k HDR media is primarily a product intended for home consumption and to be played on TVs with 4k HDR abilities The methods of DTM for projection are evolving and most agree projector setups using it are at least double the brightness of SDR projections and SDR projection has always tried to hold on to motion picture film standards.

I didn’t see The Wizard of OZ in a theater in 1939 and if I was that old I doubt my eyes would see the same now. I also don’t doubt the new version is something most will enjoy not knowing the difference.

I personally like you want as close to original film reproduction as I can get and when I read reviews saying see the emerald city in hues of emerald never before possible it makes me think we could be going a little too far.
That thinking has been shown to be incorrect. You really don't need the large brightness increases for projection. Lets just say Kris Deering " opened my eyes " - and the shadow detail and black scenes look much better as a result. In fact, HDR should not look wildly different for SDR - except the color looks better and everything looks more realistic. it's taken 5 years of HDR / 4K evolution to get here though - I was watching at 45 foot lamberts not too long ago !
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post #41 of 41 Old 03-06-2020, 02:59 PM
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That thinking has been shown to be incorrect. You really don't need the large brightness increases for projection. Lets just say Kris Deering " opened my eyes " - and the shadow detail and black scenes look much better as a result. In fact, HDR should not look wildly different for SDR - except the color looks better and everything looks more realistic. it's taken 5 years of HDR / 4K evolution to get here though - I was watching at 45 foot lamberts not too long ago !
I’m far from an expert in HDR and trying to learn as I go here.

My understanding is that there are two components to HDR and in total they want to occupy a greater percentage of what human vision can resolve. One direction is in the WCG aspect enlarging on the area bound by the RGB triangle the other direction is the intensity of the range between white and black throughout the expanded WCG (brightness).

If you strictly go by what is encoded the brightness spec falls way short with projector technology. From all I can read and understand on the subject that’s where DTM comes in and it tries to break the encoded data down and reconstruct it to do best with what any given projector is capable of. Most of what I’m reading is saying one component the data is assigned to is the WCG and the other is some increased brightness mainly reserved for highlights.

If this can be done without extra brightness and only WCG this is the first I have heard this and I would agree it could well be a finer degree of film-like viewing.

I don’t know. I think even flat panel TVs use some DTM based around room light levels. In the old days TVs had brightness control that made everything between white and black brighter. I gather DTM is an advanced form of control.

Learn something every day is my motto.

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