Here we go...
Should there be in the same blu-ray disc different encoded mix; a headphone mix, a TV mix, original cinema mix... Should you serve all type of end users with different user electronics.
You mixers actually are excusing your self by NOT adding a loud hot and original cinema track to blu-ray disc by saying that "Home theaters aren't cinemas, it is absolutely beneficial to do a near field pass".
I will also include 2 new topic, what pre-settings are you mixers using in youre Loudness Toolkit which has everything to do with decisions not to mess up the original standard and secondly do you have a true dedicate Studio Sound Quality with flat responce when applying EQ tweaks in this tracks?
DIFFERENT END USERS
You mixers are messing up your reasons vs. different size of home rooms vs. what different type of end users there are vs. in reality what type of electronics the end user uses.
When you mixers speak about a loud hot track or cinema track you always refer to a 500 seat monster theater setup which nobody have in a family living room and this is your excuse to not include the above tracks. Occasionally other mixers say, even Brian Wessa at Sony, "yes we mix it the way the most end users have at home". A few other mixers said, "we mix it the way the most home theater are".
There is a flaw in this excuse and decision because in reality THE MOST means a end user who uses mobile phone/tablet, headphone and TV/soundbar. THE MOST regarding a 5.1 system means speakers which are in size of something that is comparable to words like "not visible" and the subwoofer is something around 6" range and this are mainly compatible with Youtube videos. This end users would mainly be unhappy with using the original cinema track.
There is also this post; "Studios don't advertise they are giving you copies of the theatrical print master. You don't have a cinema in your home. You don't have your sub set to the same reference as we do". The excuse is also the same in this lines.
We have use a propper type of home electronics and calibrated system starting from the day THX came to our home systems and this are still compatible with loud hot and cinema tracks. You mixers can monitor very easy this loud hot and the original cinema tracks with your near-field system which means we can do it as well!
So the main question still exist, -for whom are you actually doing this blu-ray home mix for?
LINES FROM OTHER PEOPLE
"Most put limiters so we don't go into clip..."
A cinema mix do not clip in the final mix stage. Those who have this original film projectors at home with cinema speakers or studio monitors do not either end up to a problem. So, why is your near-field system then ending up to clip?
"The fact is when you lower the SPL from 85 to 80 or 75 things can fall off the bottom of the track. Dialog can get lost, backgrounds fade away..."
That is exactly what is happening when you apply a Sony Brian Wessa style 80 dB or 75 dB mix level and to that you apply tweaks into the track meanwhile the original standard mix level is 85 dB. Do not use the Sony/Wessa style because it is destroying the original sound design!
"But usually the most I change the internal balance of the mix is 1db. Mah e 2.... On some of my comedies, I start with all the stems up 3-4 db.... But the internal moves usually consist of raising the dialog another 1 or 2 on the quiet stuff or the backgrounds 1-2. Sometimes I will pull the surrounds back on the backgrounds 1-2 AS NEEDED". One said, "That's very close to the Dialnorm -4..."
When you start to tweak this track with EQ you need to have a proper studio acoustic treatment with monitors having flat freq. response within a range of +-0,5-1,0 dB (X-curve +-3 dB). You can NOT and shouldn't apply ANY equalization to a track if your speakers plot is within the range of +-10-15 dB (like Meyer is approving it).
Applying dial.norm -4 is another issue affecting the level is the encoder setting -27 dBFS which force us to adjust the reference level up by +4 dB to achieve the same level DTS track has (correct setting is always -31 dBFS).
Never ever apply any dial.norm or extra attenuation nor extra loudness limits inside the mix or the encoder, cinema mix don't use this so you mixers shouldn't use it either for blu-ray!...why...
"So, we have BDs with near field and others with theatrical, but one cannot know this unless he e-mails the recording engineer and asks him personally. Where do I set my gain level? 0dB? -4dB? -6dB?". "This is what I want to know, where do I set my volume".
In cinema mixing stage, studio and cinemas the calibration is 85 dBC (LCR, slow), 82 dBC (each surround, back, slow) and 89-91 dBC (sub, slow) also when applying speaker equalization into the channels. Use at all times the full-range -20 dBFS pink-noise. Do not use any band-limited noise nor any automatic room corrections which might apply variable 70-80 dB. Do not use the 75 dBC/slow channel calibration because it is not a standard it was a THX and RadioShack thing. Exactly the same should be done in a blu-ray mix studio and a home system!
I use in my end-user listening room the above calibration, EQ in all channels and reference level is here -15 dB (Classe' pre-pro, Quested V3110/SR6). If I listen to a disc which is too compressed, loudness limit with dynamics half gone I can only point the finger at the mixer who destroyed the blu-ray track of some reason. The only thing I can do is to increase the volume reference level from -15 dB to -11 dB or even -7dB. This is needed to have a crystal clear dialog with background effects, music and sub channel in balance.
All streaming services tracks are so poorly compressed, loudness limit with dynamics totally gone even of the same movie which are available on blu-ray that there is actually nothing left in this tracks and reference level -7 dB will not help to bring back the lost issues. All of them are overly tweaked. There is even one big hit a Netflix movie Triple Frontier which is done totally wrong in everything starting from the sound design and I had to turn the volume up from -15 to even 0 dB (85 dB) but of course that doesn't bring back a good sound design... This means that you mixers did drop the mixing level too low to approx. 70 dB, did apply all the wrong settings in the loudness toolkit the encoder.
By comparing all that to the correct blu-ray disc hotness and some with cinema tracks in them with my reference volume level -15 dB ON the titles are; The Game/Criterion, War of the Worlds, Conan the Barbarian 2011, JJ. Abrahams Overlord, Deepwater Horizon, Rambo, Slamdog Millionare, Casino Royal, Transformers, Hurt Locker, Knowing, The Gunman and the list goes on... Remember the follow this page http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/page/Project-4K77
with their version of Star Wars and Jedi you can playback a original 70MM Six-Track in your home system without any problems. And Jurassic Park LD is as well a good example of a hot cinema track which can be playback in near-field and a home system.
The dynamics in all this tracks are stunning but only 1 disc out of 30 is out there and all others are done totally wrong
All in all you mixers are misled with a invented excuses which are forcing you to NOT follow properly the standard. In cinema mix stage they do not have this kind of level difference problems.
Because you mixers behave like this we the end users are ending up to adjust the reference level all the time up and down because you are messing up the original standard of headroom https://www.bringtheruff.com/referen...-home-theater/
"awediophile", you are absolutely correct. The mixers can easily monitor and playback a untouched un-tweaked theatrical track through their near-field studio monitors without a single problem means that we can also do it!
Some genius human being from the industry said, -it is possible in near-field but not in a near-field home system... Even my system can do it
"Today I measured spl during playback from an old movie (1999) compared to a new one. Turns out peak levels are the same, but rms is much louder on the new one.
Subjectively, and confirmed by the measurements, the "improvement" in movie sound the last 15 years has robbed me of 10dB dynamics."
The mixers are messing up the standard. Overall level difference between the cinema vs. blu-ray and stream services tracks can be at worst astonishing 20 dB.
"Many times the movie will sound better with eq similar to the x-curve".
I have notice the same. But to do it correctly in a studio, mixing stage, home all around move the front speakers to 1m distance from your listening position and adjust with the EQ each speakers freq. response as flat as possible. After this move the speakers back behind the screen and let the room do the rest to achieve the proper X-curve. Never ever apply any automated room correction to your monitors when mixing for cinema or blu-ray and would not do it for home either.
Some mixer said aearlier that you in near-field tweak the track with EQ by 1-3 dB, -are you equalizing this tracks for blu-ray by lifting the high octave and also the low octave, having in mind that X-curve in cinemas is different in different size of room?
"Make sure the surrounds don't become overpowering since they are now raised 3db relative to the theatrical.
There is also in the DTS encoder and Dolby encoder surround attenuation. I hope you do not apply this with your already tweaked 3 dB surround mix. Why on earth are you raising the surround level because our home systems are calibrated 85 dBC (LCR, slow), 82 dBC (each surround, back, slow) and 89-91 dBC (sub, slow)?
"There is a calibration standard for the home"
75 dB vs. 85 dB. Everything is done under the above text. Forget 75 dB it is not a standard it was only a suggestion and used by THX Home licensing. But when it came to THX equalization it is the above 85 dBC etc. And automatic room correction might also apply wrong level.
The Game Criterion... "The original theatrical 5.1 soundtrack was transferred from the 35mm magnetic X-copy master. The track is very dynamic and designed to be played in large rooms at high volume." "This reviewer prefers the near field, which was directly supervised by the director".
Wrong, it can be playback in a near-field and a small room. Means that we do not have any problem of playing back a cinema track in our home systems. Problem might occur with a mobile/tablet, "youtube" speakers or TV/soundbars but not with our properly done calibrated home system!
Those mixers who are believing in this story large rooms high volume story are all falling for the same old trick. And by the way this films sound is done by super names like Boeddeker and Hymns at Skywalker and this has everything to do with the result how the cinema track should sound in home.
"The "near-field" mixes are *still* "way too dynamic" for most consumers". "I am sure that if the theatrical mixes were on the Blu Ray, everyone would be unhappy with the result".
Those with mobile/tablet, youtube speakers, tv/soundbar systems which are the MOST users will end up of being unhappy because they are not compatible with hot and cinema tracks. At a moment you are mixing a blu-ray for that purpose.
dr.sound OZ, Poltergeist and also Drag Me To Hell. It was a bit confusing said but did you mean this blu-disc have the theatrical print-master track in them?
MIXING BLU-RAY AND CINEMA
One did post a photo and video of 2 different dubbing stage freq. responce plot. There is as well plots of cinemas to compare. By looking at this the plots look very similar to each other having huge problems in all their responces.
By analyzing the dubbing, left is having missing high octave because of too much DSP compression, the right one does not have DSP at all, the right is by the way Meyer Acheron and both have the freq. response between +-10-15 dB (FFT)...ups!!! This are positioned to achieve x-curve with front response from 63 Hz -to- 2 k etc.
The other Acheron problem is that it is just a 2-way speaker with a crossover point problem against the size of the horn which is too small. That horn should be in size of 1m WxHxD. Correct size of horns are; https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/4675c.pdf https://www.electrovoice.com/binary/...Data_Sheet.PDF
Meyer Blue Horn might had been a better choice with fixed crossovers (no specs on that) and the freg. response curve in that datasheet is a bit od against the reality and Meyers signal processors don't help you anyway.
What is happening in this studios freq. response curves is that everything is done totally wrong. Acoustic treatment is done wrong with wrong room modes with standing waves which causes every octave to overthrow each other. The sound in both are totally clearly colored!!! You can not either fix this speakers freq. response with EQ without destroying this speakers. You can not mix nor apply EQ tweaking into a track with this kind of freq. response +-10-15 dB.
Never ever tweak a film mix nor a near-field mix on this type of rooms. You should immediately re-build your studio/cinema dubbing if you have this type of problems.
McCarthy could have said it straight where the actuall problem is but didn't
I must say that this acoustic consultants, speaker manufacturers and the calibrators all of them should immediately change profession and go selling Hot Dogs to the streets...
...If I would own this places I would not pay a single dime of this type of consultant and acoustic treatment.
The result of all this is just wrong, misled consulting services is made and this result has nothing to do with real Studio Sound Quality.
"FilmMixer...And there has also been a shift away from the ubiquitous Genelec's that were popular for the last bunch of years... did my last 2 HT mixes on the JBL 708i's"
You are doing mixes with this plastic Samsung speakers. You probably didn't take a look at the speakers CLF file (http://www.clfgroup.org
) which would expose the real story of that speaker. If you need to use JBL because of business reasons you should have gone for M2. But JBL M2 price is a self destruct situation. You should try out Hanz Zimmers Quested.
This is absolutely the best lines... "What would the theater sound world be like if every dub stage and every theater hit the X-curve within +/- 1dB top to bottom? Everybody would hear the same spectral balance, wouldn't they? Pretty much would solve the problem, wouldn't it?"
THE BEST ACOUSTIC TREATMENT IN CINEMAS AND STUDIOS
This days, done already for about 10 years, the best cinemas are totally custom made with own custom made speakers for that acoustic treatment. Done with real-time audio acoustic simulation application and this custom speakers are inside this treatment at all times. This custom made cinemas are in Europe and Scandinavia.
Front speakers are measured installed in-room with almost "pipe-straight" X-curve freq. response within +-3 dB The subwoofers goes pipe-straight to 20 Hz and not the 40 Hz how it is done everywhere else. They are true full-range with sensitivity of 99, true 138 dB SPL, subwoofers in surround/ceiling and done for 600 seats. Everything is done with better components (what ex. IMAX uses) and do not use the lower level of the Dolby Atmos specs. Of course this do not use any room correction like IMAX does because this are already simulated inside the acoustic treatment in real-time for final sound quality. And it still carry super sound quality!
And of course this do not use any "stone age" out of date type of THX crossover and nor has this tech. anything in common with the IMAX speakers "with car speaker drivers", JBL Samsung, Meyer, Klipch, EAW etc. type of boom boxes.
I believe there are not anything like this in the US (?).
All mix dubbing stages, studios, cinemas and home should be done with this real-time audio acoustic simulation process...If you need more info let me know!
NETFLIX ISSUE VS. CINEMA VS. BLU-RAY
In 2018 https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/hom...delivery-specs
Netflix idea of using heavy compression and loudness limiting is to limit the dynamic range which has a effect of downsizing the size of this audio file. Atmos audio file is in size in par with the Dolby Plus track.
Netflix also limit the sound designing by adjusting the budget as low as possible which causes even missing sounds in the action scenes.
And by looking at the Nugen video you can see more channels vs. the final result Netflix is publishing to the stream. Also you can see that Nugen gives you a possibility to choose a result closest to the cinema so there is no need to limit the track to something different.
Netflix also use low bit-rate pseudo Atmos Joint track which is a 5.1. Joint means it is a diluted combined mono object only running inside this 5.1 track. I do not know who invented this at Netflix but it is the most bizare thing to come up with when introducing what Atmos is.
Netflix and Scott Kramer should pay attention to all this. If he invented this Joint track his reputation is immediately flushed down the toilet. By the way your studio is looking like a home hobby with again this plastic JBL Samsung loudspeakers means **** comes in and **** comes out https://www.tomsguide.com/us/netflix...ews-26793.html
The result of all this is just wrong, again same mistakes, misled consulting services is made and this result has nothing to do with real Studio Sound Quality.
All this is against the principals what a good sound designer is doing for cinemas.
Listen to the podcast episode 355 - you are making your track in level too low!
And by looking at the Nugen video this loudness limiter proves that it can enable different pre settings, between different content playback in different size of rooms. Means that it is only upon a silly "mouse click" which can completely destroy your track.
Also you can see that Nugen gives you a possibility to choose a result closest to the cinema so there is no need to loudness limit the track to something different, plus the wrong mix level for EQ tweaks plus the wrong encoder settings, just because you want to be different or you want to implement too many standards which all this are destroying the films original sound design and the standard headroom https://www.bringtheruff.com/referen...-home-theater/
- IMAX is using in cinemas Audussey type of automatic room correction connected to internet... The result is simple, -**** comes in and **** comes out.
- I heard that JBL is on a crusade trying to convince you that X-Curve high octave need to be boosted up by +6dB.
- SMPTE did standardize immersive. It is now called SMPTE Open Source. At a moment mixers out there are now totally lost how immersive should be done.
- Dolby is also in a crusade that it want to dump the cinemas LFE responce to 40Hz... Do you call this a subwoofer?
- try out https://sonarworks.com/
app with headphone, PC and play back a movie through B&K 1974 target curve. Unbitable sound quality! Very interesting is that the B&K curve in highs is very similar to X-Curve.
- look at this video. I had to put it up because this guy defenitly need help