Mastering Movie Audio for the Home - Page 17 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #481 of 545 Old 05-29-2019, 04:05 AM
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All channels are calibrated to; LCR 85 dBC, sub 89-91 dBC and surrounds each to 82 dBC using pink-noise -20 dBFS.
Pre-pro volume level is increased or decreased to achieve crystal clear dialog with music, background effect and action sequences all together in proper balance.
The reference volume level is in my system -15 dB (0 dB is 85 dB). Increased volume level is -13 dB, -9 dB and -7 dB. The audio track in terms of worst mix level in the studio is the title which listening volume level had to be increased to -9 dB (+6 dB) and -7 dB (+8 dB) to achieve crystal clear dialog etc..
The Remastered Atmos/DTS-X/5.1/7.1 titles are (download the file);
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post #482 of 545 Old 05-29-2019, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBJECT View Post
All channels are calibrated to; LCR 85 dBC, sub 89-91 dBC and surrounds each to 82 dBC using pink-noise -20 dBFS.
Pre-pro volume level is increased or decreased to achieve crystal clear dialog with music, background effect and action sequences all together in proper balance.
The reference volume level is in my system -15 dB (0 dB is 85 dB). Increased volume level is -13 dB, -9 dB and -7 dB. The audio track in terms of worst mix level in the studio is the title which listening volume level had to be increased to -9 dB (+6 dB) and -7 dB (+8 dB) to achieve crystal clear dialog etc..
The Remastered Atmos/DTS-X/5.1/7.1 titles are (download the file);
It would be interesting to see how those movies read on the BS.1770 loudness scale, and if there's any correlation to your list.

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post #483 of 545 Old 05-29-2019, 11:08 AM
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To be clear, is this a subjective assessment of loudness based on dialogue clarity? Not an objective measurement (e.g. avg SPL per a meter)?

So, for example, you're saying that vs. your typical personal "reference level" of -15dB, you would have to turn up London Has Fallen by 4dB (to -11dB) to achieve the same level of subjective dialogue clarity as with Fury (-15dB)?

Just want to make sure I understand the parameters.

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post #484 of 545 Old 06-01-2019, 10:01 PM
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Read over the headroom article https://www.bringtheruff.com/referen...-home-theater/
Also read the Netflix article, podcast of diminishing dynamic range. And there is a lot more in my first post.

Channel calibration has nothing to do with diminishing a blu-disc track dynamic range nor has it to do with braking up the headroom. If this are broken a certain channel calibration will not give back the diminished dynamic range.
As used by Sony/Brian Vessa if you put the near-field mix level to his style to -75 dB and apply tweaks to this (EQ etc.), use loudness limiter and use wrong encoder settings you are diminishing the dynamic range.
Example the wrong -27 dBFS encoder setting is as well diminishing the dynamic range. This setting gives a volume level difference of 4 dB. If you use setting -31 dBFS as DTS is by default you are not Attenuating anything.
When the dynamic range is diminished to a certain point it is making a audible effect that you need to lift your pre-pro volume level trying to hear all the missed details in the track. Anyway it will not help and it does not give you a theatrical track because it was already a diminished dynamic range.
For cinemas they do not do it this way because everything is mixed to a certain level in mind which is suitable for the cinema pre-pro level 7.

It is strange that you have not notice this. Because this problem exist with Laserdisc and DVDs.

NEWS. Remastered Toy Story 1-3 this are all mixed for Late Night Viewing. Also all new 4 Batman are leaning toward the same issues. Now I am almost certain that Captain Marvel will also be a Late Night Viewing audio mix experience which of course all this are a shame
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post #485 of 545 Old 06-05-2019, 01:18 PM
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Roger, nice that you are here. We have by the way spoken before back at the time around 1997 2000. We did speak about studio monitors and dial norm.

What could be done to turn this situation other way around. LPCM, theatrical or louder track into blu-disc and for those for whom the tracks are too loud they would just diminish the pre-pro volume level...?
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post #486 of 545 Old 06-05-2019, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBJECT View Post
What could be done to turn this situation other way around. LPCM, theatrical or louder track into blu-disc and for those for whom the tracks are too loud they would just diminish the pre-pro volume level...?
Dialnorm settings, right or wrong, have no bearing on the dynamic range of the track. Nor does the choice of codec. It's a choice of the content creators, and they have the final say.

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post #487 of 545 Old 06-06-2019, 03:50 AM
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I meant in conjunction with a lowered mix level aka 75 dB, apply here EQ tweaks in a studio room with freq. curve +-10-15 dB, use heavy loudness limiting and on top of this the encoder setting -27 dBFS +surround attenuation -3 dB... What is the result of all this?
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post #488 of 545 Old 06-06-2019, 07:32 AM
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Mastering Movie Audio for the Home

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Originally Posted by OBJECT View Post
I meant in conjunction with a lowered mix level aka 75 dB, apply here EQ tweaks in a studio room with freq. curve +-10-15 dB, use heavy loudness limiting and on top of this the encoder setting -27 dBFS +surround attenuation -3 dB... What is the result of all this?

You are making the assumption that those things (mixing at a lower SPL level, mixing on a near field, free field setup, putting a true peak limiter, etc) cause the mixer to start making adjustments from they start.

A majority don’t.

While you’ve certainly given your opinion on remasters you don’t care for, and there certainly have been cases where studios have decided they want to reduce the dynamic range for the hone, or make other changes, the vast majority of mixes that come home sound as subjectively good as they did when mixed for the cinema when played back in a properly setup home environment.

Home theaters were designed from the go to be a translation of the cinema experience, not a replication.

That’s an important distinction.

If you don’t start from that premise there is no discussion to be had.

While we certainly today have the ability to build a home setup that meets or exceeds many cinemas capabilities, that is a rare exception rather than the rule.

Lowering of the SPL level on its own doesn’t change the dynamic range of a mix on its own.

Monitoring in a free field, near field setup doesn’t change the dynamic range of a mix either.

If you lower the surrounds 3db when mixing you actual gain dynamic range.

When you use terms like “heavy loudness limiting” and the like you are being dramatic and mis representing the process.

There are certainly bad mixes. There are certainly questionable choices made by some content creators and providers, and some mixers.

If in the end you don’t like those choices or the results you have a powerful tool at your disposal.

Don’t consume the content and vote with your wallet.

As always. Just my .02.
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post #489 of 545 Old 06-07-2019, 05:42 AM
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Thanx for coming back!

In my first post there are 100 of unanswered questions all from the end users and not only from me. So the majority are we the end users...
Again it was a mistake to say that we would need a 500 seat cinema at home to playback a theatrical track in there.
We are not duplicating the size of the cinema but are duplicating the True Full-Range with better freq. response curve, headroom, spl, 85/82/91 dB calibration and also we duplicate Your near-field sound stage with which You and We can monitor a theatrical track without any single problem!

What type of channel calibration do you use in your near-field?
Could you show us your freq. curve you have in your near-field?
Also why are you lowering the mix level?

It was already proven that you are not including the theatrical mix in the blu-ray disc even You and We can playback a theatrical track in that near-field system. The reason for this is that somebody in that movie studio invented a idea that a theatrical track can not be playback in home!

Count again the titles with which I had to increase the volume level by +4, +6 or even by +8 dB against the amount of titles which I didn't have to to achieve the crystal clear dialog. Also comparing those which are available in Laserdisc. This new Remastered they are leaning towards a Late Night Viewing experience mix.
When you need to increase the volume level to achieve a proper dialog level from -15 to -13 inside the same movie track the difference in dynamics is minor. But there will be a audible difference in the tracks dynamic when you go further in increasing the volume level for that dialog from -15 to -11 compared to how the same track sounded at -15. And the difference increases even further almost double the louder you need to go for this dialog to be crystal clear meaning to -9 and to -7 compared to how this same track sound at -15 and here the difference is huge which is unacceptable!
It should be the other way around meaning a hot loud track not needing to increase the volume level and those who do not want to listen to that loudness they would just diminish the volume level.
Sorry, but all this Remastered titles I took up in purposely have a excellent sound design which could allow them to be extremely hot theatrical in home - but they are not!
It is a waste of time, money and gives a totally wrong misled conclusion what a remastered 7.1/dtsx/Atmos is and should be!

It is strange that you have not notice this huge level differences inside same track and between different blu titles.
In cinemas the level differences is around 4-6 out of 220-230 titles and the directors can include a note...but in home it concerns all the titles!

So what is it then you are doing and including in this disc for what type of end user and sound stage are still unanswered?

...The point in all this is not my wallet because I already own this titles in many forms. It is your wallet against of preserving the original sound design vs. your ability to consult the movie studio to preserve this original sound design meaning a theatrical track in the blu-disc.

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post #490 of 545 Old 06-09-2019, 09:50 AM
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Mastering Movie Audio for the Home

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBJECT View Post
Thanx for coming back!



In my first post there are 100 of unanswered questions all from the end users and not only from me. So the majority are we the end users...

Again it was a mistake to say that we would need a 500 seat cinema at home to playback a theatrical track in there.

We are not duplicating the size of the cinema but are duplicating the True Full-Range with better freq. response curve, headroom, spl, 85/82/91 dB calibration and also we duplicate Your near-field sound stage with which You and We can monitor a theatrical track without any single problem!



What type of channel calibration do you use in your near-field?

Could you show us your freq. curve you have in your near-field?

Also why are you lowering the mix level?



It was already proven that you are not including the theatrical mix in the blu-ray disc even You and We can playback a theatrical track in that near-field system. The reason for this is that somebody in that movie studio invented a idea that a theatrical track can not be playback in home!



Count again the titles with which I had to increase the volume level by +4, +6 or even by +8 dB against the amount of titles which I didn't have to to achieve the crystal clear dialog. Also comparing those which are available in Laserdisc. This new Remastered they are leaning towards a Late Night Viewing experience mix.

When you need to increase the volume level to achieve a proper dialog level from -15 to -13 inside the same movie track the difference in dynamics is minor. But there will be a audible difference in the tracks dynamic when you go further in increasing the volume level for that dialog from -15 to -11 compared to how the same track sounded at -15. And the difference increases even further almost double the louder you need to go for this dialog to be crystal clear meaning to -9 and to -7 compared to how this same track sound at -15 and here the difference is huge which is unacceptable!

It should be the other way around meaning a hot loud track not needing to increase the volume level and those who do not want to listen to that loudness they would just diminish the volume level.

Sorry, but all this Remastered titles I took up in purposely have a excellent sound design which could allow them to be extremely hot theatrical in home - but they are not!

It is a waste of time, money and gives a totally wrong misled conclusion what a remastered 7.1/dtsx/Atmos is and should be!



It is strange that you have not notice this huge level differences inside same track and between different blu titles.

In cinemas the level differences is around 4-6 out of 220-230 titles and the directors can include a note...but in home it concerns all the titles!



So what is it then you are doing and including in this disc for what type of end user and sound stage are still unanswered?



...The point in all this is not my wallet because I already own this titles in many forms. It is your wallet against of preserving the original sound design vs. your ability to consult the movie studio to preserve this original sound design meaning a theatrical track in the blu-disc.
If you refuse to quote people they have no idea that you’ve responded to them.

I’ve answered all your question in multiple posts over the years... I would try a forum search.


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post #491 of 545 Old 06-10-2019, 04:49 AM
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It was not meant to be a Quote it was meant to remind You mixers of this unanswered questions. Over 90% of the earlier questions/quotes, my last one I had a few and in my very last one I had even 4 questions...they are all still unanswered!
Maybe the subject is too close to uncover the Top Secrete Classified Document
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post #492 of 545 Old 06-10-2019, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBJECT View Post
It was not meant to be a Quote it was meant to remind You mixers of this unanswered questions. Over 90% of the earlier questions/quotes, my last one I had a few and in my very last one I had even 4 questions...they are all still unanswered!
Maybe the subject is too close to uncover the Top Secrete Classified Document
Just a friendly advice: If you want answers I think you should try and organize your posts better and have some structure. Or maybe focus on your top 2 questions for starters to have a dialogue going. You are all over the place in a messy wall-of-text which is difficult to keep track of.

I think it is a very interesting topic and as a person who have tried to replicate the cinema-specifications in my room, I would very much like to hear the "target" which is used for consumer-remixes. If a target even exist?
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post #493 of 545 Old 06-10-2019, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
Just a friendly advice: If you want answers I think you should try and organize your posts better and have some structure. Or maybe focus on your top 2 questions for starters to have a dialogue going. You are all over the place in a messy wall-of-text which is difficult to keep track of.
Also that pesky condescension and borderline insults I've found is a great way to get experts to disclose information about how they work. Generally, the more incoherent and patronizing I am, the more I find that expert professionals are happy to share.
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post #494 of 545 Old 06-10-2019, 11:11 AM
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I think it is a very interesting topic and as a person who have tried to replicate the cinema-specifications in my room, I would very much like to hear the "target" which is used for consumer-remixes. If a target even exist?

The “target” is to compensate for the differences between a cinema and hone environment. If you are trying to replicate a cinema in your home the final piece of the puzzle would be getting DCP playback and having access to DCI content.

It’s rare that our temporary near field systems are calibrated EQ wise... we almost always mix in the room where the film was done and have instant access to the cinema print master to compare. While this might seem odd, mixers don’t go in and start making dramatic eq changes to their original stems... that would be 1. Stupid 2. Unprofessional and 3. Mean that something is wrong with the speakers you are monitoring on/you are using the wrong speakers.

It’s not that the Genelec 1031’s a lot of us were using were the end all be all, were excessively flat, etc. it’s just that we all knew what they were and what they sounded like and didn’t try and compensate. They were detailed enough in the top end you could hear things that you couldn’t with an x-curve.

Thankfully we now have access to the JBL 708s and they are very very close subjectively to most large JBL cinema systems.

By setting up your room to meet reference level playback levels without distortion and a flat frequency response you can the playback CONSUMER content with as much certainly (as is possible due to not everyone adhering to strict rules for how they accomplish their hone mixes....) that you are hearing it as intended.

It’s a really impatient distinction.

You aren’t a cinema playing back cinema content.... so to complain we aren’t delving the theatrical print master makes no sense. (This isn’t directed at you btw... it’s just a common complaint from people who spend a lot of money on their rooms... “I have a better room than most movie theaters therefore I should have the same content they do...”)

I think we have failed as an industry to properly educate consumers, and some studios have been very lazy with properly using the tools given to them (measuring dialog norm, setting the theatrical flag for proper surround levels, etc...)

In general we mix at reduced SPL levels vs listening at 85 reference in a mixing stage.

Why?

1. 99% of consumers don’t listen at reference or even close to it.... we aren’t mixing for lowest common denominator. But you can’t ignore variations in level when we don’t have a standard that 99% of consumers don’t follow, can’t follow or that accounts for the myriad of infinite varieties of playback systems said content will be played back on. Even with a cinema reference in place, we find it challenging to make sure those standards are followed in theatrical exhibition.

Again.... The goal isn’t to perfectly reproduce cinema content, it’s to translate it for the intended environment. A hugely important distinction (home theaters, no matter how good, aren’t cinemas and playback different content.) If one can’t get past that conceit they will never be satisfied with any answers I give.

2. Listening at reference to near field monitors a few meters away from you is too loud. You wouldn’t mix content that loud if you had started on near fields.... listening at 85 with a cinema theater speaker system that is 30-40 feet from your ears is a decidedly different experience than listening to a near field monitor free field a 6-10 feet away. Listening to free field monitors allows you to hear the speakers almost entirely by themselves. Large room acoustic will always play into cinema and mix stage playback. Two different environments.... I haven’t seen many home theaters that approach the size of even the smallest of cinema mixing stages I’ve worked on that have full sized 2 or 3 way cinema speaker systems....

3. No x-curve. Since we have to mix through a system with an x-curve, cinema content played back on near fields at 85db reference can be excessively bright. Listening at a reduced SPL helps compensate for that... Fletcher Munson curve anyone?

Moving away from reduced SPL level monitoring... here are some other well established reasons near field mixes are beneficial in translating cinema mixes for the home.

4. Surround speakers a now point source vs arrays... and also are 3db louder than cinemas. It’s not only completely different sound, if you are mixing in 5.1/7.1 the surrounds are not bass managed in a cinema and typically have a reduced frequency typically vs a home setup. Atmos has changed this a bit, but the array vs. point source still applies in 99.9 of cases.

5. Bass management. Doesn’t exist in 5.1/7.1 theaters. Should be monitored to hear unintended bass build up.

So to get a sound that is “perceptually” similar to my theatrical playback I mix my near fields at 80db... some do it at 82, others down to 75... when I work with Brian Vessa I mix at 80 and playback for him at the level he wants, be it 75 or something else.

And as I’ve said countless times in the past, I make such small changes to my mixes. Usually no more than 1-2 dB for any given change, be it EQ or level. It’s almost always raising dialog or background sounds that fall off when play back lower. I also start with my surrounds at unity and let them fly. If they become overpowering they get lowered. I know many other mixers I’ve spoken with do the same. The only limiting I do is so we don’t go over digital zero and hit a true peak of -.01.

In the end we have a unique relationship with directors and editors and they trust us to translate their vision to the home environment.... not every mix is going to be handled the same way. Like every music mixer won’t mix a song the same way.... but IMO there is a lot of hysteria over this practice that is unjustified.

I’ve heard so many cinema mixes in the same environment and can tell you that they are all over the place in terms of levels, frequency content, low end extension, etc... which is awesome IMO. If not they would all sound the same.

The comment from another poster is incorrect. Cinema mixes vary drastically in level... to say otherwise is not based on experience. I know because I work with other mixers all the time.... and my work also varies from film to film. They are all unique.

The films I’ve done for Judd Apatow are vastly different than those I have done for Michael Bay... obvious I know. And each also needs a different types of care when translating them to the hone.

I hope I answered your question in a satisfactory manner. I only speak for myself and my almost 30 years experience.
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Thanks for the explanation. I actually thought more drastic changes were done when re-mixing for the home.

But just so I understand: The remix is done on near-field (6-10 feet) but how is that mix validated for home use? Cinema's have certified screening rooms where frequency response, RT60, reflections etc. are required to meet a certain target. Most high end home theaters are definately smaller than cinemas, but they are indeed larger than a near-field mix setup. So how is that "gap" verified?

Is there no such target for the home?

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post #496 of 545 Old 06-10-2019, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks for the explanation. I actually thought more drastic changes were done when re-mixing for the home.



But just so I understand: The remix is done on near-field (6-10 feet) but how is that mix validated for home use? Cinema's have certified screening rooms where frequency response, RT60, reflections etc. are required to meet a certain target. Most high end home theaters are definately smaller than cinemas, but they are indeed larger than a near-field mix setup. So how is that "gap" verified?



Is there no such target for the home?

There is a target for the home. Flat frequency response, SPL 75db on all channels.

Cinemas do not HAVE to meet many specifications unless they are seeking THX certification (largely a dead program as of today) or are installing Atmos and/or a Dolby cinema (IMAX rooms are a different beast altogether.)

A theater chain usually has an in house department when building theaters that include cookie cutter theater setups and budget requirements.

The bottom mine is that the film industry and SMPTE have come up with a loudness specification for SPL playback levels and desired frequency response (x-curve....)

No one “enforces” that.

It’s been my experience that many theaters do at least tune their rooms, but unfortunately a good majority don’t play back at reference level, and often times their amps (and subs) are not up to the task.

This has indeed changed with many of the newer “premium” venues (IMAX, Dolby Cinema, RPX, AMC Prime, etc....).

There is no way to “validate” or “verify” anything. The gold standard for the way a mix should sound is on the mixing stage where it was mixed and printmastered. When played back in a room set to the proper SPL reference and with the proper tuning, it should translate.... and that’s the goal, not perfect reproduction.... I’ve mixed on two stages right next door to each other... built identically at the same time, same equipment.... they will have certain nuances of difference.

Perfection can’t be the goal. Acoustic science and reproduction technologies get us in the ball park where “good enough” is untouchable in its deficiencies by 99%+ of untrained listeners.
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post #497 of 545 Old 06-11-2019, 03:01 AM
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Stunning that you are here. Thanx again FilmMixer and the rest

"There is a target for the home. Flat frequency response, SPL 75db on all channels."
75 dB is not a standard. 85 dB is. 85 dB is in use when you EQ x-curve, flat response. THX Home EQ is also 85 dB. Where did you get that 75 dB from, RadioSchack?

"It’s been my experience that many theaters do at least tune their rooms, but unfortunately a good majority don’t play back at reference level, and often times their amps (and subs) are not up to the task."
This is correct when I was speaking about our fully custom made cinemas vs. Dolby sub spec 40 Hz response. In this fully custom made they go pipe straight to 20 Hz without a single problem. Acoustic is done differently, as I said etc. This do not use any JBL, Klipch, EAW, or limited Dolby specification etc. IMAX speakers are by the way using 5$ worth "car bass-drivers" and a silly room correction. And China owners of almost all of your multiplexes started a few years back with a goal anything should cost nothing. This is the reason some are not up to task.

"...The gold standard for the way a mix should sound is on the mixing stage where it was mixed and printmastered. When played back in a room set to the proper SPL reference and with the proper tuning, it should translate..."
Are this rooms with +-10-15 dB freq. response?

"Perfection can’t be the goal. Acoustic science and reproduction technologies get us in the ball park where “good enough” is untouchable in its deficiencies by 99%+ of untrained listeners."
Did you mean the end user who bought the soundbar for his TV?

-

" The “target” is to compensate for the differences between a cinema and hone environment."
You should have said it this way, -either you preserve or not preserve the original sound design. Which one is it?
Or are you mixing for certain type of equipment at home which are in use in 99% of homes meaning soundbars, headphones and mobile when you refer to calibration and levels. This equipment do not have proper levels and calibration.
You forgot to say that You, Me and We have the same near-field when it comes to full range speakers.
You do not use this same 1 meter in diameter Horn in that near-field so you should not have any problems with that overly bright x-curve high.

"It’s rare that our temporary near field systems are calibrated EQ wise... we almost always mix in the room where the film was done and have instant access to the cinema print master to compare."
I believe that the movie studios budget is already used to the end in the production that there is nothing left for this NEW Atmos/DTSX Remastering to achieve a Real Remaster.
I believe that they are mixing this Remasters in a Atmos/DTSX room space where they are using Room-Correction and that is translating into the blu-disc. DTS own is using Dirac !
It was proven that this type of Cinema dubbing stages with near-field system in the same room might have a freq. curve of +-10-15 dB. How on earth can you translate a flat freq. curve for home according to this environments. I would not EQ anything and I would not translate anything from this to blu-ray disc.
This +-10-15 dB is with Meyer Acheron and I believe your JBL 708 would have the same issue in that same space.

"Thankfully we now have access to the JBL 708s and they are very very close subjectively to most large JBL cinema systems."
JBL Cinema speakers has nothing in common with good sound or the custom built speakers for custom built cinemas. I suppose you do not have custom cinemas in US, music studios you have.
Worst thing is to duplicate a bad speaker to a other. If you are married with JBL take instead the M2.
Did you ask from JBL the CLF file of 708 and M2 to compare?

"You aren’t a cinema playing back cinema content.... "
We want to play back the original sound design.

"In general we mix at reduced SPL levels vs listening at 85 reference in a mixing stage. Why? 1. 99% of consumers don’t listen at reference or even close to it...."
In this case do not change the original standard. Implement the original sound design in the blu-disc...Who is it this 99% you refer to?

"...I haven’t seen many home theaters that approach the size of even the smallest of cinema mixing stages I’ve worked on that have full sized 2 or 3 way cinema speaker systems..."
You do not need a Horn loaded full range speaker to successfully playback a cinema mix. You can playback a theatrical track with full range studio monitors in near-field with no problem putting the volume level down if it is too loud for somebody.

"3. No x-curve. Since we have to mix through a system with an x-curve, cinema content played back on near fields at 85db reference can be excessively bright. Listening at a reduced SPL helps compensate for that... Fletcher Munson curve anyone?"
X-curve is miss understood in some partys. That X-Curve in far field behind the screen should be totally flat measured from 1 meter distance! But to have it the monitor need to have it own freq. response flat and this proper x-curve roll of comes automatically the further you place the speakers!
So the most accurate X-curve is achieved to make this monitors freq. response total flat +-0,5 dB measured from 1 meter distance and then move this speakers to far field behind the screen and let the room do the rest. But of course you need the woven screen and proper acoustic treatment for that.
Did you read this Fletcher https://www.bringtheruff.com/referen...-home-theater/ ...It is 85 dB!

"4. Surround speakers a now point source vs arrays... and also are 3db louder than cinemas."
Where has this come from that they are louder?

"So to get a sound that is “perceptually” similar to my theatrical playback I mix my near fields at 80 db... some do it at 82, others down to 75... when I work with Brian Vessa I mix at 80 and playback for him at the level he wants, be it 75 or something else."
Is it because of this I mostly need to increase my volume level inside the same movie by +8 dB to achieve the background noise and the dialog in balance?
I am trying to figure it out what have you done to force me to do it.

"It’s almost always raising dialog or background sounds that fall off when play back lower."
This happens also for me if I diminish the volume level back by this 8 dB the dialog and background effects are too weak. To get them back I have to increase the volume level by 8 dB.

"The comment from another poster is incorrect. Cinema mixes vary drastically in level... to say otherwise is not based on experience."
It was me. This is it how it is locally here in our totally custom made multiplexes (4-6 / 220-230 titles). It was not a made up thing. But you kindly skip that section when I said that the level differences are in ALL the blu-disc titles!

"The films I’ve done for Judd Apatow are vastly different than those I have done for Michael Bay..."
The case is not that. The case is what is it when translating them to the home?

"I only speak for myself and my almost 30 years experience."
I am 51 and started when I was 15

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post #498 of 545 Old 06-11-2019, 01:22 PM
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...Where did you get that 75 dB from, RadioSchack?
Radio Shack

For someone with 30+ years experience, it is telling your not aware consumer AVR use -30 dBFS internally generated tone or noise for the same -20 dBFS = 85 dBSPL or dBC SMPTE calibration.

I’m not going to explain dialnorm (dialogue normalization) i’m sure there’s no less than a hundred threads here on AVS (you can search my post if necessary) so you can search yourself when time permits.

FWIW there’s good reason to lower the room calibration “target” on the production end of things. It puts the mix engineer in a setting where he/she is likely to elevate the mix average volume and apply mild dynamic range compression. DR management is powerful tool when properly implemented, most when they hear the term they assume a negative impact....but they are mistaken. Any good mix (music or theatrical) should have some level of DR compression. A good example is average dialogue being too hard to parse and action scenes over emphasized.

Also a HT theatrical remix should be done midfield vs near-field.

Just my $.02

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Also a HT theatrical remix should be done midfield vs near-field.



Just my $.02

Tomas... by definition we are doing our HT mastering mid-field.

We’ve just never referred to it as such... probably because 95%+ of the time we are doing it in the stage where the film was mixed, so everything besides the mains are “near field..”

We’ve (lazily) always refereed to this as near field.... it become such a generic term used for scheduling , labeling and work flow it stuck, if not technically correct.

It’s also why I made a point in my reply to specify general distance of mixer to speaker in a few of my examples .

I also think that people equate the lowering of monitor level with dynamic range reduction... as you know, lowering the SPL of the room changes nothing in terms of dynamic range or printed level unless you make that change manually. When I mix at 82, 80 or 75 I don’t automatically lower the stems 3,5 or 10 dB.
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Nor does mixing at 85 dBSPL guarantee a wide dynamic range. I stand by what i posted, i just don’t know how to make it any more succinct.

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post #501 of 545 Old 06-11-2019, 07:39 PM
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Nor does mixing at 85 dBSPL guarantee a wide dynamic range. I stand by what i posted, i just don’t know how to make it any more succinct.



-Tomas

I’m not sure who that reply is aimed at or who disputed anything you posted.
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FilmMixer, if you really have a Radio Shack 75 dB per channel calibration in near-field mix is wrong (LCR, each surround speaker and 1x SUB).
Your made in Mexico/China 708 does not sound at all the same compared to the JBL Cinema nor does it have the same character either. Did you get them for free?
The latest JBL Nano K8 is now completely made in China. It means good old JBL is totally gone. Instead try out Quested or Procella. If you need assistance and better consultation let me know.

About the 3 dB louder surrounds. You meant that we don't have the amount of surround speakers in one channel as cinema and dubbing stage does. Most of us have one speaker per surround channel. When you lower the mix level by -10 dB you get a result that the surrounds are actually totally gone which means you again have to get it back by increasing the surround level by +3 dB. This is giving a result that it will never be in par with the original surround in the sound design. This type of work done has a name "loudness correction". All this is nonsense and with this you are breaking up the original sound design.

"Fletcher and Munson: For example, let’s refer to the line highlighted in red that reaches 80dB at 1,000Hz. According to that line, a 30 hz bass tone requires an SPL, or volume level, of approximately 90dB to achieve the same perceived loudness as a 1,000 Hz mid-range tone at only 80dB."
You are using this Fletcher Munson trying to compensate the result of the loudness so that you will have at least something left in in the final blu-disc mix. The louder you go the flatter it is heard in our ears. This is the goal in the hole mixing. Meaning the lower you go the more sensitive are our ears to hear this sounds. You are now going the opposite wrong direction what it should be and what the original sound design is. You should agree to this that all this is nonsense and totally wrong done. Photo included.

"Nor does mixing at 85 dBSPL guarantee a wide dynamic range."
Tell me more?

"I also think that people equate the lowering of monitor level with dynamic range reduction... as you know, lowering the SPL of the room changes nothing in terms of dynamic range or printed level unless you make that change manually. When I mix at 82, 80 or 75 I don’t automatically lower the stems 3,5 or 10 dB."
Something is totally wrong with this Remastered blu-ray titles in their level because I have to increase the volume level so heavily. And you also trick the surround level.

"..., it is telling your not aware consumer AVR use -30 dBFS internally generated tone..."
No one should use that it is a band-limited and all AVR use a non calibrated false volume level adjuster. Externally generated full range pink-noise -20 dBFS it should be and with a correct 85 dB volume adjuster.
What about the Room-Corrections what is it they are using and doing?

"I’m not going to explain dialnorm (dialogue normalization)..."
Wrong setting used gives a 4 dB difference in level. Even the reviewer of the blu-ray movie I Am Legend said the track is audibly too weak and has dialnorm -4 dB.

"FWIW there’s good reason to lower the room calibration “target” on the production end of things. It puts the mix engineer in a setting where he/she is likely to elevate the mix average volume and apply mild dynamic range compression."
Then it is not anymore the intact original sound design
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post #503 of 545 Old 06-13-2019, 04:01 AM
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Object: You do know that cinemas calibrate surround channels at 82db, yes? And the remaining speakers 85db.

Home theaters on the other hand calibrate all speakers equally.

So the 'trick' you mention about the surround channels, seems to actually make sense? Or am I misunderstanding something?

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If you have a good dubbing stage loudspeaker it should measure from 1 meter distance in a properly acoustic treated room a flat freq. response within +-1 dB. The further you place this speaker this x-curve roll off comes automatically. To achieve this X-curve roll off 8000 Hz -6 dB this front speakers need a 33 meter distance from the listening point. So you are actually having a flat freq. response speaker at near-field. So the final cinema mix was done in that. So this -10 dB blu-ray mix level is not needed because of this X-curve.

Our ears are too sensitive of handling sounds in levels at different frequency. This 2 photos illustrate that well. Our ears have better of understanding this necessary sounds in the response the louder they come. You the mixers have this same human ears we the home listeners have. This means that you mixers are breaking up this original sound designs levels when you put the mix level down to -10 dB. You are actually fooling your own ears with this!

It would be nice to hear comments from you all, even from Roger Dressler, about what this Dolby calibration 79 dB SPL means vs. 85/82/91 vs. RadioShack 75 dB vs. equalizing a freq. responce https://developer.dolby.com/tools-me...m-calibration/

I forgot to say concerning the movie Life 2017 (Jake Gyllenhaal). This movie gives a reading in my pre pro the volume level -15 dB. I did not have to increase the volume level to achieve good dialog level. This title is supervised by Brian Vessa and this time he made a different choice in level!
Sony Pictures Want To Hear From You https://secure.sonypictures.com/movi...?hs308=4KU003D
Write that you want a theatrical track in them

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post #505 of 545 Old 06-13-2019, 09:36 PM
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Who are you replying to and what context?
You did not respond to my post.

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post #506 of 545 Old 06-14-2019, 12:30 AM
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Lets come to that a bit later... I want to hear comments on that 79 dB SPL issue first! And reminding that the sub level need to bee as Dolby is saying it should be. So, 75 dB SPL per channel and SUB is totally wrong!

Dolby developer is saying that the studio should use full range speakers. Are you mixers doing it, I am as a end user https://developer.dolby.com/tools-me...ss-management/

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post #507 of 545 Old 06-14-2019, 01:11 AM
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Lets come to that a bit later... I want to hear comments on that 79 dB SPL issue first! And reminding that the sub level need to bee as Dolby is saying it should be. So, 75 dB SPL per channel and SUB is totally wrong!

The poster asked me what their reference should be to hear our mix as intended.

AVRs calibrate at 75db per channel... so if he were to do that, with as flat as a response as possible... well that would be a starting point wouldn’t it?

You’re incorrect about so many things you have posted and repeating them doesn’t make them true.

You’re AVS fake news.

You’ve never mixed a film. You’ve never done a near field mix. Nor have you ever been on a film mixing stage or in any professional studio I suspect.

It’s easy to find my credits and hear my work.

If you think it’s subjectively bad and that we “destroyed the original sound design” because we mastered it for home theaters that’s fine. I have many directors and producers who keep coming back so they disagree with you.

Listen to “Fury..”. Or “Power Rangers...”. Or “Dark Tower” and tell me how we messed them up.

You wouldn’t know. So while I try and conduct myself in a professional and appropriate manner on AVS, you’ve gone too far too many times without the slightest bit of civility or respect, or even curiosity or genuine nterest.

Instead you’ve cajoled, insulted and bashed me and many others I know and work with.

You simply live in your own world and want to scream louder than everyone else for who knows what purpose.

I personally know many of the people you keep mentioning in this thread. Roger Dressler. Brian Vessa. The mix teams and sound designers on “Life” and “Backdraft...”.

You don’t really have any questions that need answers. You seem to know how me and my industry should be doing things better than we do.

So I’ll be happy to sit down and chat with you after you get an audio engineering degree, mix over 200 films in a 29 year period and get paid and make a living doing so.

Sorry @OBJECT but I am out of here.

If you’re trying to get a rise out of me I’ve got a much thicker skin than you.

This I know.

You don’t survive almost three decades in Hollywood, and work with some of the people I have, without it.

Best to you... have fun on your crusade.

I don’t have anything else to add here.

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@FilmMixer : Did you mix Power Rangers? The sound was amazing in my home theater!

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post #509 of 545 Old 06-14-2019, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
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So to get a sound that is “perceptually” similar to my theatrical playback I mix my near fields at 80db... some do it at 82, others down to 75... when I work with Brian Vessa I mix at 80 and playback for him at the level he wants, be it 75 or something else.
1. AVRs test tones are -30 dBFS, thus the max level is identical to the cinema standard: 105 dBC.

2. At my home, I follow the cinema standard.

3. If you don't printmaster at Reference Level (105 dBC), all you're doing is fudging up the standard and your mix will make my ears bleed.
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post #510 of 545 Old 06-14-2019, 04:06 AM
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Sorry to hear that you did not like the idea of comparing human ear in Fletcher-Munson vs. the ability to recognize a untouched cinema mix. Mine is nothing different than yours and it recognizes pretty easy the false level differences.

You did not have anything to do with the list of my Remastered tiles ALL with different levels. Sorry to hear that you did not find from my list that Fury was the one with the correct level
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