Scott and Mark Answer Your Questions on Home Theater Geeks - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 59 Old 07-29-2015, 05:05 PM
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Hi Scott, I WAS WONDERING IF THE NEW 4K BD SPEC WILL ALLOW FOR DOLBYATMOS AND DTS:X TO BE CONVERTED TO PCM BY THE PLAYER AND SENT TO AN AVR/PRE PRO , MUCH LIKE WE CAN DO NOW WITH DD TRUE HD AND DTS MA. (ie player can send a bitstream to a capable avr/pre-pro or the conversion takes place in the player and sends PCM to the avr/pre-pro)


I have an Integra DHC 80.3 and love the sound as well as Audyssey XT 32 room correction, I do not want to buy a new pre pro.


PS. I am on vacation here in Florida and never miss a podcast show.


Thanks


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post #32 of 59 Old 07-29-2015, 06:19 PM
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IPv4, IPv6 and Streaming Devices

The question:

My question in this post concerns streaming devices and IPv6: What have you heard about streaming appliances (such as Roku) and "Smart TVs" implementing IPv6, now that available IPv4 addresses are within two weeks of completely running out?

Background for question:

Maybe it is because of my background of having worked in the Information Technology department of a community college for three decades before I retired, but I have been keeping an eye on ARIN's dwindling IPv4 inventory and the up-tick on the United States of America increase in availability of IPv6 (as reflected by requests being IPv6 to Google services).

As of this writing, 21.46% of United States of America users making requests to Google (Search, gmail, YouTube, etc.) do so using IPv6, so about 4/5ths of the users are still using IPv4 only. On the other hand, ARIN (supplying IP addresses to United States, Canada, and many Caribbean and North Atlantic islands) is running low on IPv4 addresses, as of this post having only 245 256-address blocks to hand out, and a 256-address block is way too small for an ISP or a large company to effectively use, and even those are expected to run out in about two weeks. That means that, as the Internet continues to grow, IPv4 addresses will become more valuable (the old marketing law of supply and demand).

That means more and more residential customers, most of whom don't advertise an IP address, will have their IPv4 addresses end up behind "Carrier Grade NAT" (CGN) (a.k.a., "Large Scale NAT" (LSN)). (Public servers, such as public web sites and the content delivery networks that provide streaming services for Netflix, etc., have to have their own unique IP addresses and, except for smaller hosted sites, cannot be shared.) Most homes with 2 or more Internet-connected devices use NAT for IPv4 devices, so the addition of CGN means double-NATting.

NAT takes the local area network side of addresses and ports and maps them to one public IP address and multiple ports on the Internet side. For one's residence, that might not matter since a computer may kick off multiple IP sessions, each on a different port, and the NAT in the router will map those to one IP address on different ports, there being 65536 ports that can be used. If a computer is using, say, 15 ports for a web browser session, another for automatic updates of some piece of software, and a streaming box is using four streams (downloading video, downloading sound, downloading a thumbnail picture file for FF/RW through the stream, and uploading position information), that doesn't make much of a dent on the 65536 possible ports. Add a couple more computers and Smart TVs, and still no big deal.

But get several hundred such customers aggregated behind a CGN and the NAT table for CGN would have to be quite large and one would have to limit the number of sessions each customer can use or one would exhaust those 65536 ports for the one Internet-side public IP address they are sharing. So with CGN one faces potential performance issues with the large mapping table between customers and the Internet, and the limit of sessions. While this generally isn't much of an issue with general web browsing, three classes of applications can be greatly affected by CGN: streaming quality video streams (and thus my question), gaming, and real-time video calls (e.g., skype). Remember: each packet going from the streaming service would require a lookup at the CGN to see which customer IP : port to send the packet to, and then the customer's router would repeat the lookup to see which private IP : port to send the packet to. With a typical MTU of 1,500 bytes, there are lots of packets that have to be remapped/routed if watching a HD stream.

On the other hand, IPv6 greatly expands the address space to the point where even us lowly residential customers are given a block of 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 addresses (2^64), and that without having to go through NAT at any level.

Over time, as more and more customers find themselves sharing the same IPv4 address behind a CGN, performance issues are likely to get worse. In the meanwhile, those who do have IPv6 will find that their IPv6 devices won't experience the CGN slowdowns that will cause picture degradation or stutters.

While the uptick of IPv6 availability has been rather slow, I expect to see this accelerating in the next few years, and I don't want to pay good money for a device that won't function satisfactorily in a few years just because the manufacturer ignored the IPv4 Exhaustion.

Yet, today, one normally doesn't find any mention of IPv6 on the packaging of streaming devices.
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post #33 of 59 Old 07-29-2015, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post
But get several hundred such customers aggregated behind a CGN and the NAT table for CGN would have to be quite large and one would have to limit the number of sessions each customer can use or one would exhaust those 65536 ports for the one Internet-side public IP address they are sharing. So with CGN one faces potential performance issues with the large mapping table between customers and the Internet, and the limit of sessions. While this generally isn't much of an issue with general web browsing, three classes of applications can be greatly affected by CGN: streaming quality video streams (and thus my question), gaming, and real-time video calls (e.g., skype). Remember: each packet going from the streaming service would require a lookup at the CGN to see which customer IP : port to send the packet to, and then the customer's router would repeat the lookup to see which private IP : port to send the packet to. With a typical MTU of 1,500 bytes, there are lots of packets that have to be remapped/routed if watching a HD stream.
I'd be happy to hear from the boys about this as well.
It should be noted, though, that NATs, especially CGN, can use a heck of a lot more the 65536 ports per public IP. How? They use the destination public IP to help identify returning packets. So you can have 65536 people going to 4.4.4.4 at the same time as another 65536 people going to 8.8.8.8, all under one CGN's public IP.
Popular destinations, like google.com or facebook.com will certainly hit the 65536 faster than less popular, but it isn't a sum across all destinations. Also domains can have multiple A records in round-robin, to multiply the number of possible simultaneous clients.
Hopefully the most popular destinations will be accessed with IPv6, leaving only a few single TCP connections here-and-there that need CGN. (Loading facebook.com opens several (many?) sockets. Streaming services often open fewer sockets because the data needed is more linear.)


Also, I don't think CGNs are going to degrade streaming services as much as you might imagine. NATs are very, very fast. They are a time-tested and well-refined networking system. Properly coded, configured, and implemented NATs have astonishingly low latency and high throughput.
That being said, CGN can't be punched, so it will break P2P applications like gaming and file sharing, as well as basic service hosting like VPN, FTP, or SSH. I look forward to the proliferation of IPv6 to solve that.


Again, I look forward to the possibility of this discussed on the show, and I'm glad you brought it up, Mark.

Last edited by kitti; 07-29-2015 at 07:21 PM. Reason: punctuation, mentioned round-robin
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post #34 of 59 Old 07-29-2015, 07:19 PM
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What do you account for the slow deployment of HDR ready & Dolby Atmos/DTS:X movie theaters in the USA?
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post #35 of 59 Old 07-29-2015, 09:37 PM
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Who are Scott and Mark and what do they know?
They are the rock stars of TV & Audio knowledge! Represent boys!

Here is a link to absorb some YouTube info zgeneral: https://www.youtube.com/user/TWiTHom...erGeeks/videos



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post #36 of 59 Old 07-29-2015, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post
The question:

My question in this post concerns streaming devices and IPv6: What have you heard about streaming appliances (such as Roku) and "Smart TVs" implementing IPv6, now that available IPv4 addresses are within two weeks of completely running out?
This is way outside my area of expertise; I don't know about Mark. I can try to do some research about it, but I probably won't get very far by tomorrow. It's a good topic for an article, though, so thanks for the idea!
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post #37 of 59 Old 07-29-2015, 09:46 PM
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I wouldn't worry about devices in the home using up ipv4 addresses. You should really only have one address that's exposed to the internet, all your internal addresses are 192.168.xxx.xxx.
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post #38 of 59 Old 07-29-2015, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
You should really only have one address that's exposed to the internet, all your internal addresses are 192.168.xxx.xxx.
Yes. That has helped delay the problem thus far. But now we don't have enough addresses to give each house even just one.
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post #39 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post
The question:

My question in this post concerns streaming devices and IPv6: What have you heard about streaming appliances (such as Roku) and "Smart TVs" implementing IPv6, now that available IPv4 addresses are within two weeks of completely running out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
This is way outside my area of expertise; I don't know about Mark. I can try to do some research about it, but I probably won't get very far by tomorrow. It's a good topic for an article, though, so thanks for the idea!
That suggests that it doesn't get much mention in your area of expertise. But at a later date if you do have opportunity to look into it, I'd appreciate hearing what you find out.

Thank you!

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post #40 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 02:32 AM
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I posted this I guess in the wrong thread,I would like to know your opinion about HDR on edge lit displays ,do you guys think that edge lit have the precision to control or modulate different nits on each pseudo zone?edge lit usually have around 8 true zones on the edges

I know that the display can play the files but how about the precision of the pseudo zones.see more below vvvv Thank You guys.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
IMO Edge lit doesn't have the precision to control or modulate the different nits on each pseudo zone, it can only control 8 true zones around the edge.

you either affect the blacks or whites when trying to adjust either one.

law of physics ,IMO a true zone base display like FALD and OLED is the way to go for HDR.

I think Scott is aware of this issue he is been writing articles about HDR since 2007.

when the edge lit display want to send high nits it have to travel trough the diffuser giving a inaccurate form of HDR. also the weakest area of light is the center.
example:
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post #41 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by kitti View Post
Yes. That has helped delay the problem thus far. But now we don't have enough addresses to give each house even just one.
While true, it's not something us end users contribute to, and/or do much about.
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post #42 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 06:56 AM
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Dolby Atmos Question:

Have you had the opportunity to experiment with the number of overhead channels/speakers in your listening environment? 2 Vs 4 or more pros/cons for different listening configurations(one row, two rows, long or short room). Can you get too many? Could two be better than four? What about compatibility with the DTS system?
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post #43 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveMcLain View Post
Dolby Atmos Question:

Have you had the opportunity to experiment with the number of overhead channels/speakers in your listening environment? 2 Vs 4 or more pros/cons for different listening configurations(one row, two rows, long or short room). Can you get too many? Could two be better than four? What about compatibility with the DTS system?
Yes, and I'd love to discuss this topic.

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post #44 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post
Hi Scott, I WAS WONDERING IF THE NEW 4K BD SPEC WILL ALLOW FOR DOLBYATMOS AND DTS:X TO BE CONVERTED TO PCM BY THE PLAYER AND SENT TO AN AVR/PRE PRO , MUCH LIKE WE CAN DO NOW WITH DD TRUE HD AND DTS MA. (ie player can send a bitstream to a capable avr/pre-pro or the conversion takes place in the player and sends PCM to the avr/pre-pro)
I doubt that and here's why:

The bitstream is a bunch of computer data. Part of the object oriented bitstream is the location of the sound in 3D space.

Once you convert that to LPCM that metadata is thrown away and the signal is set at a specific number of channels. Instead of many possible points of origin for the audio you now limit yourself to 7.

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post #45 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 08:22 AM
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My blu Ray collecting is getting out of control.
I have been transferring them to a drive for use on my Apple TV- but drive space is limited.

I am considering surrendering to the stream.

My question:

I am a Mac guy but, Quality is my main concern.

iTunes or Vudu?
From my online research most folks switching over seem to go Vudu.

Thanks
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post #46 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yes, and I'd love to discuss this topic.
In a related topic I'd like to know about Atmos speaker aiming in the home theater setting. My home theater has a 7.1 configuration using in wall speakers from Monoprice and when I add speakers for Atmos I'd like to use one of their in ceiling speaker models. They have tweeters that are "aim-able" and I wonder what is best; do you aim them at the main listening position or do you aim them slightly off axis to make the sound seem more diffused?
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post #47 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 10:22 AM
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The 2015 Denon & Marantz models haven't been on the market long enough yet to really know for certain if their new HDMI 2.0a w/ HDCP 2.2 boards are better, worse, or the same as previous HDMI boards.


But one thing I CAN tell you is that I would definitely have Denon & Marantz at the very top of my consideration list for any AV Receiver purchase this year. They made their feature sets dead simple. EVERY 2015 model has HDMI 2.0a with HDCP 2.2 on every HDMI port. And if it has 7 amps or more, it's got Atmos AND DTS:X. If it's an 'S'-Series model, it's got Audyssey MultEQ. And if it's a 7-channel 'X'-Series model, it's got MultEQ XT. If it can do more than 7 speakers at once, it's got MultEQ XT32!
So they've made it easy to keep it all straight


Yamaha is the only other mass market brand I'd be looking at right now.

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Thanks Rob. That's exactly the kind of advice I was hoping to get!
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post #48 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes View Post
My blu Ray collecting is getting out of control.
I have been transferring them to a drive for use on my Apple TV- but drive space is limited.

I am considering surrendering to the stream.

My question:

I am a Mac guy but, Quality is my main concern.

iTunes or Vudu?
From my online research most folks switching over seem to go Vudu.

Thanks
Drives are cheap. Can you upgrade or add another drive?
If quality is your main concern you want to consider only transfers (ripping) to lossless format. If space is a concern, consider ripping only the main movie (skip the extras, etc.). Check out the free MakeMKV http://www.makemkv.com/ program for ripping your movies. You may also want to try out JRiver Media Center http://www.jriver.com/ ($50, but has free trial period) for organizing and playing your collection (it uses "LAV filters" and "madVR" - considered to be by many, the best in the business). JRiver has a MAC version, but I use Windows so I can't comment on that version.
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post #49 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kitti View Post
Yes. That has helped delay the problem thus far. But now we don't have enough addresses to give each house even just one.
Your router can use an IP6 address for accessing the internet while internally on your intranet can use IP4 addresses...

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post #50 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by player002 View Post

The ju7100 has 2 zones for dimming top and bottom of the screen how effective or Ideal do you find this?

https://youtu.be/LGSKu9YkAYE
Hi Scott and Mark,

I would like to hear your take on effectiveness of JU7100 dimming as well.

Ratings.com states that local dimming on JU7100 is "not effective", and the video that player002 linked is used as evidence.

However, this contradicts CNET review of JU7100 because they state that JU7100 has "true local dimming".

Is the video a good representation of JU71000 dimming effectiveness with real world content?

Is JU7100 only capable of dimming half screen at a time or this varies depending on content?

If JU7100 indeed only has two dimming zones, does this mean that effective dimming can be achieved with only 2 dimming zones as CNET review seems to indicate?

Thanks!

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post #51 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 04:07 PM
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Your router can use an IP6 address for accessing the internet while internally on your intranet can use IP4 addresses...
Incorrect.
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post #52 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 04:26 PM
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Thank guys for answering this questions about edge lit vs FALD HDR ,HDR on edge lit is non buono.
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post #53 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 04:35 PM
 
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Thank guys for answering this questions about edge lit vs FALD HDR ,HDR on edge lit is non buono.
ughhh missed the podcast where it was discussed came in to late.. What are the details you just saying no good is not descriptive what was said specifically?
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post #54 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
This is way outside my area of expertise; I don't know about Mark. I can try to do some research about it, but I probably won't get very far by tomorrow. It's a good topic for an article, though, so thanks for the idea!
I can answer that. Implementing IPV6 on a streaming device would be a waste of time. The deivce aren't modems and don't connect directly to your DSL/Cable provider. You'd have to have your own in house router or cable modem/router combo run out of assignable addresses before that happens.

Leave that for the telcos to sort out. You don't need to worry about it for consumer devices.
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post #55 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by zgeneral View Post
I can answer that. Implementing IPV6 on a streaming device would be a waste of time. The deivce aren't modems and don't connect directly to your DSL/Cable provider. You'd have to have your own in house router or cable modem/router combo run out of assignable addresses before that happens.

Leave that for the telcos to sort out. You don't need to worry about it for consumer devices.
I think you missed the idea of the original question; that several/many telcos already have deployed IPv6, but that many streaming boxes don't support IPv6. Which means that it is the opposite of pointless; it is the one thing we are waiting on, to have IPv6 actually work all the way through.
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Last edited by kitti; 07-30-2015 at 05:13 PM. Reason: added conclusion
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post #56 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
While true, it's not something us end users contribute to, and/or do much about.
Until your xbox stops working because they turned on CGN (like in Mexico). Then you'll be wanting to do something about it.
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post #57 of 59 Old 07-30-2015, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
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Until your xbox stops working because they turned on CGN (like in Mexico). Then you'll be wanting to do something about it.
I don't wanna poop this thread up too much, but I think the overarching point is still being missed.

We can want to do something about it till we're blue in the face, but most of us only have 1 outward facing IP address on the internet, everything else on the end-user's side of their cable modem uses NAT.

It's one of those things like death, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to worry about it. There's nothing you or I can do.
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post #58 of 59 Old 07-31-2015, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
We can want to do something about it till we're blue in the face, but most of us only have 1 outward facing IP address on the internet, everything else on the end-user's side of their cable modem uses NAT.
Most of us end-users in the United States have only 1 outward facing (public) IPv4 address on the Internet, and all the IPv4 devices on the end-user's side are private IPv4 addresses (typically of the form 192.168.x.x, but can also be 10.x.x.x).

About 1/5th of us end-users in the United States have the above for IPv4 addresses plus one or more outward facing (public) IPv6 addresses, typically 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 public IPv6 addresses allocated to each private residence. There are also private addresses (actually, "link local") that are automatically set up.

To pick my setup, my "Smart TV" is IPv4-only and has a private address of 10.0.0.3. My Roku has 10.0.0.4. This PC has 10.0.0.2. The public address (on the WAN side of NAT) is 71.193.x.x (pardon me for not disclosing the last two octets) and, fortunately, is not sitting behind a "Carrier Grade NAT". Just that one IPv4 address (71.193.x.x) has been allocated to me. Since it is not a dedicated address, each time the gateway (cable modem / router) is restarted I may be allocated a different IPv4 address.

On the IPv6 side, I am allocated 2^64 addresses in the block, 2601:1c1:x:x::/64 (pardon me for not disclosing part of the IPv6 address), and this specific PC has been assigned 2601:1c1:x:x:x:x:x:1d59, which is the same address both on my LAN (private) side and on the WAN (public) side. If I had a second device, it, too, would have its own IPv6 address that would be the same on both the LAN and WAN sides. (Note that the block of IPv6 addresses isn't dedicated to me, so a reboot of the gateway may result in a different block of /64 IPv6 addresses being allocated to me.)

The IPv4-only devices communicate to the Internet using only the IPv4 protocol. The IPv6-only devices can communicate to the Internet using only the IPv6 Internet protocol. Devices that have both protocols, such as my PC, and are connected to a network infrastructure that supports both protocols (such as the gateway I am renting from Comcast and the local Comcast network), can communicate over the Internet using either or both protocols.

My first post on this thread was motivated by many streaming devices currently being sold can use IPv4 only, but with ARIN's pool of IPv4 addresses running so low, some ISPs are already using "Carrier Grade NAT" to aggregate the IPv4 addresses of end-users onto fewer public IPv4 addresses, and eventually more ISPs will have to do so with their customers. The result is that IPv4-only streaming devices may experience degraded performance, such as a lower-quality stream or possibly pauses, especially as more streaming IPv4 end-user devices end up being aggregated on fewer public IPv4 addresses. Meanwhile, IPv6 streaming devices, if their network equipment supports IPv6 and IPv6 is provided by their ISP, will continue to enjoy NAT-free end-to-end connection.
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My very humble setup:
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post #59 of 59 Old 07-31-2015, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by player002 View Post
ughhh missed the podcast where it was discussed came in to late.. What are the details you just saying no good is not descriptive what was said specifically?
36:51 on the youtube video.
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