What is the best way for a 'dummy' to calibrate his new LCD TV - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

dude she's seriously busted, getting old, getting fake and I wouldn't touch her with a 10ft pole at this point.


Lets run with this, certainly she was hot in her younger years, but just a little ageing she can look washed up, like many, and we can tell that. But we can't tell what a oversaturated image looks like, cartoon colors, red-pink push etc? Do we really need a photo research colormeter to confirm this?
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post #62 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Lets run with this, certainly she was hot in her younger years, but just a little ageing she can look washed up, like many, and we can tell that. But we can't tell what a oversaturated image looks like, cartoon colors, red-pink push etc? Do we really need a photo research colormeter to confirm this?

Okay so TV are like women.

My TV has given me two children.

WTF your analogy doesn't hold.
Hotter is subjective.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Reference standards can be measures and calibrated.

You don't need a colorimeter to adjust saturation especially with as far off as it often is OTB but lets look at margin of error:
naked eye
blue filter
colorimeter
spectrophotometer

I guarantee you cannot do better with your naked eye than I can with my colorimeter.

Nobody is saying that out of the box is correct. We are just saying use a reference when eyeballing your set AND that using a reference and doing it yourself will be better than coping someone else's "reference" settings.
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post #63 of 80 Old 03-25-2009, 11:50 PM
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I guarantee you cannot do better with your naked eye than I can with my colorimeter.


You don't need to tell me that, i know that you and many others feel that way. Regardless how the end result picture looks. It's all data and numbers. I guess we will have to agree to disagree as i feel the human eye is the best video calibration tool ever to be devised.
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post #64 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 04:31 AM
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please keep on topic and stop the bickering

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post #65 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

You don't need to tell me that, i know that you and many others feel that way. Regardless how the end result picture looks. It's all data and numbers. I guess we will have to agree to disagree as i feel the human eye is the best video calibration tool ever to be devised.

For brightness, contrast, color/tint and sharpness yes the eye is the best tool you have in your kit but only after you know what to look for, have a bit of experience and a source to create the needed patterns or sample clips. As for white balance, gamma and gamut the eye is to adaptive for it to work and you need other tools be it optical comparators, colorimeters, spectroradiometers and even just a light meter. And now with the manufactures getting on board and making the necessary controls available within the user menus having the correct tools to perform a complete calibration is even more crucial.

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post #66 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

My point is you can get 95% there just choosing correct modes, and brightness and contrast settings, which most people would be 100% happy with.

You see, this is why you are always crossing swords with everybody in this forum. You are obviously trying to promote that if you can reach some mediocre level of performance that is "watchable", and noticably better than how it was out of the box, people should be satisfied with that, instead of striving for the best. Well, the OP of this thread specifically asked for "the best", it says so in the thread title. So, telling him that doing it himself won't be "the best", is perfectly accurate. Who are you to tell people who want the best and actively try to find answers on how to get it, that they should just settle with a mediocre picture?

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post #67 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sotti View Post

That's a really bad way to do it, you know why?

Because your computer monitor could be just as far off as your TV, which one is right?

You've got two monitors neither of them is a reference.

Why is this so hard to understand? Out of the box most LCDs come with all kinds of image "enhancements" cranked to the max, resulting in crushed blacks, blown out whites and unnaturally saturated colors. Computer monitors have no such "enhancements", therefore the image will appear much more natural. Comparing the two simply allows a dummy like myself to realize the picture looks better — and shows more detail — without all of those "enhancements" enabled. Without this simple comparison, I'd have been none the wiser.

I'm just talking about getting the picture in the ballpark here, which is all a "dummy" really needs.
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post #68 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 03:55 PM
 
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Your little homily about other settings getting you 95% of the way to "calibration" is also wildly incorrect. As I said, I routinely see settings that produce errors in the range of 25%. That "pre-calibrated" projector/processor combination I mentioned had errors as large as 40% in some parameters. I don't consider errors that large to be within the realm of 95%/5%, nor should you if you have any integrity.
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post #69 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 05:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spanbauer View Post

Erm, maybe I'm not being clear. What I display on the television is the actual blu-ray disc on pause. What I display on the computer monitor is the same blu-ray still image from a review site such as blu-ray.com. I realize this is not a scientific comparison and there are some variables, but it's a quick and dirty way to see if your television is even in the ballpark. It helped me realize how much detail in the shadows and highlights I was missing with the torch mode that my television originally came in. Before viewing the same frame on a computer screen void of image "enhancers", I was naive and thought dynamic mode and black adjust both set to high looked good.

I realize this is not "calibration", but it helps a dummy get the picture at least in the ballpark, and at no cost.

No, I realize EXACTLY what you are saying. Perhaps you do not realize that I retired after 34 years of supporting, designing, and testing professional imaging products. It is difficult for me to calmly explain -- over and over again -- why what you are doing is so inaccurate. This is the AVScience Forum and the goals here generally lean towards processes and equipment to get the best possible images from home video systems. These forums are not generally "about" getting mediocre images and calling that "good enough".

I have spent, literally, decades, perfecting What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get imaging systems. I know what it takes to do what you are suggesting and I know how inaccurate web images are. Web images are NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate and inconsistent from site to site. You can't trust ANY of them to represent what the real movie frame is supposed to look like. The image you are looking at on your computer could be MUCH too bright or MUCH too dark, or MUCH too yellow, or MUCH too blue... just because it came from some web site doesn't make the image accurate. It can be off as much or more than your TV.

I tried opening some "screen shots" for movies I own on Blu-ray on my laptop (which is calibrated by the way, and yours is not so your laptop is already not a good reference) and the screen shots picked from 3 different sites do not match the appearance of the image on my video display. Now... the image on my video display is calibrated with a meter. My LAPTOP was calibrated as much as it could be (not all that much) with the same meter.

My laptop has an HD DVD drive. If I put an HD DVD in my laptop and capture a frame, then remove the HD DVD and put it in my HD DVD player and look at the same image on my TV - guess what... the laptop and TV match reasonably well. There are still some differences, but the TV I am using has many more calibration controls than my laptop has. Now, bring up the same scene from a web site and the image is quite a bit off in easily observable ways. So you are attempting to use inaccurate images on an inaccurate laptop to make accurate images (from an actual Blu-ray disc) look similar on your inaccurate TV. I assume you have seen how much images can be changed in PhotoShop? You can change ANYTHING about an image using PhotoShop. Websites use PhotoShop or something similar to convert images to appropriate sizes for their web pages and most of the time, the images are messed with in some other way - most often because the person re-sizing the image is not on a computer with a calibrated monitor so they think the image is "wrong" when the capture is probably more accurate than their final result.

I'm just saying that your process is fraught with inaccuracies at every step. And it is not nearly as useful as using a sub-$20 test/setup disc like Digital Video Essentials HD Basics (see amazon.com for the sub-$20 price) for setting the TV's basic controls. The test disc will bypass the inaccuracies of your laptop, the inaccuracies of image you choose to use, and your TV's "issues" and show you without any inaccuracies exactly how to set those controls to make the images look right - regardless of how they look on a laptop. After setting up your TV with the test/setup disc, it will reproduce Blu-ray frames more accurately than the screen shots you look at on your laptop. And once again... these are the AVScience Forums. It's our job to strive for BETTER images with FEWER adjustment errors as much as possible. The first step towards that goal is a well-designed test/setup disc like Digital Video Essentials HD Basics.
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post #70 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 05:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

You don't need to tell me that, i know that you and many others feel that way. Regardless how the end result picture looks. It's all data and numbers. I guess we will have to agree to disagree as i feel the human eye is the best video calibration tool ever to be devised.

That's an astounding statement for someone with no education about human vision (or calibration). There are optical illusions you can access on line that show things like a YELLOW segment of an object appearing to be gray to the human eye. A meter reads the color as yellow, the eye says the color is gray unless you isolate the segment from its surroundings, then it looks YELLOW again. There are MANY other examples including motion illusions like colored dots that literally disappear (which may explain why people fail to "see" emergency vehicles with flashing lights and bright colors and crash right into them way too often). Human vision is HIGHLY flawed as anyone who has ever studied human vision will happily expound on in endless detail.

Yet human vision sets the "rules" for how meters measure color. A meter would be useless if it measured color differently than we see color. A meter that is fooled by optical illusions as human vision is would be worthless so the engineers who design meters avoid that design flaw.

Another illusion happens when you look at a grayscale ramp, especially one with steps above 100% white... it is fairly common to see a color error below 100% or sometimes above 100% you ASSUME that pink tint you see in one step really is a pink tint. In reality, your eye will assume the step with the most BLUE is the White-est step and that can make a nearby step look pink even though the pink step really is an accurate white. Meters are needed to keep from being fooled by things like that. Our vision is a remarkable thing, but it is not "meter quality". The people who design meters don't do so in a vacuum. They first learn how human vision works and how to make meters that replicate what we see (with accuracy and repeatability) and they also make sure that meters are not fooled by the same things that fool human vision.

If I put up 3 window patterns that have different brightness levels, you can tell me which is the darkest and which is the brightest, but you can't tell me which one is 30 fL. You'd be guessing. The meter can tell you which one is 30 fL (or which one is closest to 30 fL) and that turns out to be a pretty useful thing to know when you are calibrating a video display.

Why is someone like you with so little interest in or understanding of science, engineering, education, and the pursuit of excellence so obsessed with twisting the world (and video display accuracy) back into the scientific backwaters? If you were the best the human race could do, we'd never have landed on the moon, developed the computer, made roads, or gotten out of the caves. By your way of thinking, the cave man with the first lathe who could make wheels that were pretty round was just a rip-off artist since your 95%-round wheels (which were really 60% round) were just as good. Your logic would also make interchangeable parts impossible, and when you talk on your cell phone, connecting and staying connected just 60% of the time would be good enough. Email that included just 60% of the characters in the original message would also be good enough - I mean the 60% cell phone service would only cost $15 a month. Who would pay $50 a month for a service that's 99.5% reliable anyway? Nobody but a fool.
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post #71 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Yeah, i don't know why you continue to stalk me. If you have nothing to add except i don't know what i'm talking about then don't keep ALWAYS responding. It's not my problem you will never learn about what a correct image looks like, and have zero confidence in any of your own ability. And your results are nothing more than what a geek squad kid can do.

Ad homenim attacks in lieu of a legitimate answer usually indicate a lack of ability to intelligently respond to a question. For everyone's benefit, I'll re-iterate:

1. You state that calibration is a sham.

2. You state that you know nothing about calibration, nor do you have a desire to learn.

3. You are posting in a calibration related thread, although the content of your posts is eithe personal attacks or non-calibration related - this is tantamount to trolling.

I'm surprised the mods haven't blocked you from posting in this forum all together. You have yet to make a beneficial contribution to any thread here. Are you really that attention starved that you feel the need to disrupt otherwise productive threads for your amusement?

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post #72 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 06:51 PM
 
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree as i feel the human eye is the best video calibration tool ever to be devised.

As doug is far more patient in explaining than I am, this is bulls**t. One of the fundamental behaviors of the human vision system is adaptation to the dominant lighting with regards to color temperature. It is what allows us to see extremely well, and for things to appear normally, across a wide variety of lighting situations, from morning, to noon, to twilight, to incandescent lighting, to flourescents, etc etc. Yet because we adapt to the dominant light sources around us, things usually appear close to neutral white, or something close to it.

It is why it is almost impossible for humans to judge absolute greyscale color temperature with much accuracy, because unless it is grossly, unreasonably colored, if it is the only thing we are looking at then our visual system adjusts our perception so that it appears neutrally white.

It is why you have to white-balance a camera, or do so manually with film or filters in order for things to appear correct on a monitor. Our eyes do that for us automatically. A great benefit for real life viewing, but a great detriment to judging absolute color temperature in isolation without a known reference.

There are certain things that our eyes do incredibly well (seeing across an enormous dynamic range, for instance), but judging absolute color temperature is not one of them, because if we were able to do so, it would significantly cripple our real-world vision.

There are strengths and weaknesses to the human eye. Some of those weaknesses can be taken advantage of (for instance colorwheels on a 1-chip DLP to create the perception of white even though the display cannot output white light at all, or refresh on a CRT or with film to create illusions of smooth motion and a smooth picture).

So, needless to say, your stubbornness, and ignorance continue to astound.
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post #73 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

Ad homenim attacks in lieu of a legitimate answer usually indicate a lack of ability to intelligently respond to a question. For everyone's benefit, I'll re-iterate:


The qeek squad grammar is not impressive.

Let's look at the facts.

Since you can't or are incapeable to judge by your eyes you buy inferior products with horrible accuracy. Then you pay as much as the projector for a device to make it accurate because you where incapeable of knowing it was inaccurate in the first place. Same with sxrd owners you could not tell major oversaturation. I'm positive your judgement in anything you buy there will be problems. You are a perfect candidate.
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post #74 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 11:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Seems you overlooked a couple posts from beachcomber and leeG.

Appears you have overlooked a few as well.

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Not really, since you are trusting your equipment 100%.

OK - I'll make a deal with you.

Get on a plane - fly here.

Sit in front of a TV and 25 times the red, blue or green will be adjusted by 1 click up or down to change the Color Temp.

You will then identify if the color temp went up or down and which color was adjusted in the grey scale.

We will do the same with a meter.

If you get 80% correct (or a better percentage than the meter correct), I will personally pay you $25,000. Get 100% correct and I will pay you $50,000.

If you loose to the meter, you owe me $5000.

Both your cash and my cash will be placed in escrow prior to the test so neither can back out on payment.

A nice profit for a day's work if your eyes are the best calibration meter made, to use your words.

Ready to put up the cash for what should be an easy profit for you if you are as good as you say = as well as prove that your eyes are better than a meter?
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post #75 of 80 Old 03-26-2009, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

Appears you have overlooked a few as well.



OK - I'll make a deal with you.

Get on a plane - fly here.

Sit in front of a TV and 25 times the red, blue or green will be adjusted by 1 click up or down to change the Color Temp.

You will then identify if the color temp went up or down and which color was adjusted in the grey scale.

We will do the same with a meter.

If you get 80% correct (or a better percentage than the meter correct), I will personally pay you $25,000. Get 100% correct and I will pay you $50,000.

If you loose to the meter, you owe me $5000.

Both your cash and my cash will be placed in escrow prior to the test so neither can back out on payment.

A nice profit for a day's work if your eyes are the best calibration meter made, to use your words.

Ready to put up the cash for what should be an easy profit for you if you are as good as you say = as well as prove that your eyes are better than a meter?

I'll take the meter for 5% of the bet.
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post #76 of 80 Old 03-27-2009, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

Appears you have overlooked a few as well.



OK - I'll make a deal with you.

Get on a plane - fly here.

Sit in front of a TV and 25 times the red, blue or green will be adjusted by 1 click up or down to change the Color Temp.

You will then identify if the color temp went up or down and which color was adjusted in the grey scale.


Of'course i would not tell with 1 click. 3 clicks i would take that bet on the content i would pick.
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post #77 of 80 Old 03-27-2009, 06:28 AM
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Seriously now i think about it you could raise red 3 clicks or drop green 3 clicks which would result in not knowing if red was raised or green was dropped. So i would not take it. Regardless, adjusting white balance is not rocket science. You are only fine tuning that extra 5% if it's pushing a little green or red. Blue is easy. Get back to me when you have equipment that's capeable of adjusting the lows. Like my eye can.
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post #78 of 80 Old 03-27-2009, 08:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Seriously now i think about it you could raise red 3 clicks or drop green 3 clicks which would result in not knowing if red was raised or green was dropped. So i would not take it. Regardless, adjusting white balance is not rocket science. You are only fine tuning that extra 5% if it's pushing a little green or red. Blue is easy. Get back to me when you have equipment that's capeable of adjusting the lows. Like my eye can.

Yes, I have equipment that will measure that low and beat your eye - which is the purpose of this test - you have to beat (or tie the meter) so problem solved.

Furthermore, luma would increase or decrease so yes, you could tell if color was added or subtracted.

Balls in your court.
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post #79 of 80 Old 03-27-2009, 09:12 AM
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You're just wasting your time. The lights are on, but no one's home.
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post #80 of 80 Old 03-27-2009, 09:32 AM
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thank you
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