HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 155 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4621 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
I only uncheck BT.1886. That is what is royally confusing me. I want my gamma function to adhere to BT.1886 function so I'm at a lost now!

Help! :-)
So just check it. If you have a FALD set turn it off.

If you have the FALD "ON" at 0% the 1886 curve looks like Gamma 2.4 (if I remember correctly). The curve is totally based upon the 0% output of the screen.

Last edited by AMS67067; 10-14-2014 at 06:02 PM. Reason: backlights to FALD
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post #4622 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 04:31 PM
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Is there a guide for using the GCD disc in conjunction with HCFR? I just read about this disc earlier in this thread and have burned it. Just looking to find out how to use it as part of an HCFR workflow. Thanks
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post #4623 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by carillon View Post
Is there a guide for using the GCD disc in conjunction with HCFR? I just read about this disc earlier in this thread and have burned it. Just looking to find out how to use it as part of an HCFR workflow. Thanks
I use the HCFR downloadable disk. It has the patterns for all, calman, HFCR .....
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post #4624 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AMS67067 View Post
So just check it. If you have a FALD set turn it off.

If you have the backlights ON at 0% the 1886 curve looks like Gamma 2.4 (if I remember correctly). The curve is totally based upon the 0% output of the screen.
Example: Target 1886 is white dashed. 1st thumbnail is FALD off, second FALD on (no light output at 0%, completely dark screen). Notice the target is flat 2.4 with FALD on.

The 1886 is a strange beast. There is a excel spreadsheet on this thread that you can use to calculate targets and you can input 100% and 0% values and the 1886 curve target get calculated (see OP and look for the spreadsheet. HCFR just does this automatically.
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post #4625 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
You and orion aren't being clear! :-)


The rest I think I got. I need to now go back and match Y values to my reference which is determined by my gamma function and my grayscale sweeps.

Please correct me if the above is wrong or unclear.

)
Correct, match your Y measured values to the target Y that HCFR generates for the Gamma you selected.

easy, peasy

The Gamma chart I shown was after 1 pass, after a second pass it should be dead on. Just make sure you adjust brightness between passes becaue adjust the 10% or 5% and make changes to the brighness level (black level).
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post #4626 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMS67067 View Post
So just check it. If you have a FALD set turn it off.

If you have the FALD "ON" at 0% the 1886 curve looks like Gamma 2.4 (if I remember correctly). The curve is totally based upon the 0% output of the screen.
Ok, so I want CIE2k, that makes sense. And if I want BT.1886 curve, check that and leave the reference gamma at 2.22. But do the calibration with FALD off.

Is that correct?
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post #4627 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
Ok, so I want CIE2k, that makes sense. And if I want BT.1886 curve, check that and leave the reference gamma at 2.22. But do the calibration with FALD off.

Is that correct?
Do you have a Vizio P? Read the total Vizio Tread on P or M with FALD. They said calibrate with FALD off. I think Buzz even said that in the vizio thread. Ask Him on that thread.

My sammy has dimming so I have to keep dimming off to may a 1186 curve. Again 1886 is good for lights off viewing. 2.4 is good for dark viewing also, 2.2 is good for bright room.


I do NOT have a Vizo, but I read every post on the P and M with FALD since I was thinking about getting a Vizio P.

Like I said with 0 light at 0% is a flat gamma of 2.4 with FALD on since their is NO light output at 0%.

I don't think reference gamma means anything with 1886 selected. The reference is 1886 not a power gamma. Just my thinking.

Last edited by AMS67067; 10-14-2014 at 06:44 PM. Reason: added gamma talk
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post #4628 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMS67067 View Post
I use the HCFR downloadable disk. It has the patterns for all, calman, HFCR .....
You keep saying this. I presume you mean the AVS disc:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...libration.html

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #4629 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 09:03 PM
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It took a few hours, but here are my new graphs/measurements for color and gamma.

Target was BT.1886/CIE2000 (why is this not the default?).

Call me crazy, but my gamma is pretty darn sexy now, right?

I guess my last issue (I hope) is with Yellow and Cyan. For the life of me, I can't get them where I think they should be (<=0.5 dE).

For color tuning, I'm just using the CMS settings and matching the delta E's on the 75% Saturation patterns.

What is REALLY throwing me off is that on the CIE chart, I can line up the 75% saturation square with Cyan but the dE is higher than if I just play with it to get it down to 0.9 dE. Why? Is that color luminance screwing me up again?

What am I doing wrong?
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post #4630 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMS67067 View Post
Do you have a Vizio P? Read the total Vizio Tread on P or M with FALD. They said calibrate with FALD off. I think Buzz even said that in the vizio thread. Ask Him on that thread.

My sammy has dimming so I have to keep dimming off to may a 1186 curve. Again 1886 is good for lights off viewing. 2.4 is good for dark viewing also, 2.2 is good for bright room.


I do NOT have a Vizo, but I read every post on the P and M with FALD since I was thinking about getting a Vizio P.

Like I said with 0 light at 0% is a flat gamma of 2.4 with FALD on since their is NO light output at 0%.

I don't think reference gamma means anything with 1886 selected. The reference is 1886 not a power gamma. Just my thinking.
I did ask Buzz, he is the one that gave me the tip of turning of FALD (him and zoyd actually).
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post #4631 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
It took a few hours, but here are my new graphs/measurements for color and gamma.

Target was BT.1886/CIE2000 (why is this not the default?).

Call me crazy, but my gamma is pretty darn sexy now, right?

I guess my last issue (I hope) is with Yellow and Cyan. For the life of me, I can't get them where I think they should be (<=0.5 dE).

For color tuning, I'm just using the CMS settings and matching the delta E's on the 75% Saturation patterns.

What is REALLY throwing me off is that on the CIE chart, I can line up the 75% saturation square with Cyan but the dE is higher than if I just play with it to get it down to 0.9 dE. Why? Is that color luminance screwing me up again?

What am I doing wrong?
Nice job with the grayscale. Looks spot on. Now it's time to focus on colors and your CMS.

As I mentioned earlier, the Luminance targets for colors also matter and the luminance graph, saturation graph and CIE chart all provide different info that is relevant for the color calibration. The discrepancy you are seeing is very likely due to color luminance issues.

My suggestion would be to run a full saturation sweep for all primary and secondary colors. Then focus on each color, starting with a primary like red. See if you are over or under luminance targets. Also look at the CIE chart to see where your red targets for 25,50 and 75% saturation lie. Your goal should be to minimize dE for 25-75% saturations. If this requires compromising on accuracy for 100% saturation of the color of interest, that is okay. Refer to this post of mine for the logic behind tweaking CMS settings to achieve a good color calibration: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post27925474

Not sure if the Vizio CMS settings are RGB or Hue, Sat, Luminance. Either ways, the post should give you an idea of what you should be looking to do.

One quirk to keep in mind - When using saturation sweeps in HCFR, you cannot use spot/free measures for particular colors at specific saturation levels. After making any CMS sweep for a color, you need to remeasure a saturation sweep for that color. This can be a bit tedious if pulling up patterns manually, but this approach is worth the effort. Once you are done with your calibration, your CIE chart should ideally show all measurements very close to the chromaticity targets. In addition, the luminance graph should show all saturation levels matching well with target luminance and overall dE should be low for all colors and saturation levels.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recommended calibration settings for Samsung PN60F5300B
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post #4632 of 11933 Old 10-14-2014, 11:16 PM
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Can anyone remember the discussion that someone used a microphone stand for their iD3? and if so which it was?
I don't know the thread you reference but I think you need one of these to adapters to attach a colorimeter to a mic stand:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/deta...FQuOaQodlQEAow

My Home Theater/Video Gaming/HTPC/2 Channel rig (Mitsubishi, MartinLogan, Marantz, DIYMA, and others)

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post #4633 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 12:21 AM
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One quirk to keep in mind - When using saturation sweeps in HCFR, you cannot use spot/free measures for particular colors at specific saturation levels.
Well ... actually you can, it just won't update the saturation grid data. If you select, 'show free measures,' on the CIE Gamut chart you can still track the measures into the target box(es.) And of course, if you're using the "75% of 709," you'll still have those "primary/secondary" points.

Lot's of ways to tackle this, and probably more than a few ways to get into trouble. On my last PJ calibration, I actually used the 50% saturations to set the Hues and went on from there. ... YMMV
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post #4634 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Nice job with the grayscale. Looks spot on. Now it's time to focus on colors and your CMS.

As I mentioned earlier, the Luminance targets for colors also matter and the luminance graph, saturation graph and CIE chart all provide different info that is relevant for the color calibration. The discrepancy you are seeing is very likely due to color luminance issues.

My suggestion would be to run a full saturation sweep for all primary and secondary colors. Then focus on each color, starting with a primary like red. See if you are over or under luminance targets. Also look at the CIE chart to see where your red targets for 25,50 and 75% saturation lie. Your goal should be to minimize dE for 25-75% saturations. If this requires compromising on accuracy for 100% saturation of the color of interest, that is okay. Refer to this post of mine for the logic behind tweaking CMS settings to achieve a good color calibration: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post27925474

Not sure if the Vizio CMS settings are RGB or Hue, Sat, Luminance. Either ways, the post should give you an idea of what you should be looking to do.
Ok, I understand this again as I did last night (though I ran out of time - it was 12:30AM and I was getting tired).

Buzz told me that this TV only works using 75% saturation sweeps (no 100%). Fine, how do I know what is my target luminance value for REC709 75%? The guide doesn't really outline that nor do I see anything obvious within HCFR on what my target luminance values are for each color at 0-25-50-75% saturation targets.
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post #4635 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 04:28 AM
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Well ... actually you can, it just won't update the saturation grid data. If you select, 'show free measures,' on the CIE Gamut chart you can still track the measures into the target box(es.) And of course, if you're using the "75% of 709," you'll still have those "primary/secondary" points.

Lot's of ways to tackle this, and probably more than a few ways to get into trouble. On my last PJ calibration, I actually used the 50% saturations to set the Hues and went on from there. ... YMMV
THIS is what I tried first and then went back and looked at my dEs. The problem is I don't see how to figure out Y for each saturation target?
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post #4636 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 04:32 AM
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So I'm buying a colorimeter to replace my i1 display 2, already have i1 pro as ref spectro. Any recommendation? i1 display pro is a bit pricey I would like to go for cheaper options like colormunki display (same as i1 display pro ?) or spyder 4.

What's the pros & cons of those? main calibration softwares are HCFR, dispcalGUI & ArgyllCMS.
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post #4637 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 04:44 AM
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So I'm buying a colorimeter to replace my i1 display 2, already have i1 pro as ref spectro. Any recommendation? i1 display pro is a bit pricey I would like to go for cheaper options like colormunki display (same as i1 display pro ?) or spyder 4.

What's the pros & cons of those? main calibration softwares are HCFR, dispcalGUI & ArgyllCMS.
Just a suggestion: You can get the i1D3 used on eBay and Amazon. I bought mine for about $180 new.
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post #4638 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
Lot's of ways to tackle this, and probably more than a few ways to get into trouble. On my last PJ calibration, I actually used the 50% saturations to set the Hues and went on from there. ... YMMV
This is why we need a wiki!
Won't the one at sourceforge work (i.e., as far as having a place to put it)?

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #4639 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 06:09 AM - Thread Starter
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post #4640 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 06:52 AM
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Alright, I found a spreadsheet here. Can I zonk in my ftL on top and then use those saturation target numbers (including Y) for each color?

AHA! OK, GCD has a spreadsheet with the targets. But is it possible to use the AVS709 disc as well by using the following formula for the 75% color saturation targets:

75% saturation x= .75*(Cx-whitex)+whitex = Targetx
75% saturation y= .75*(Cy-whitey)+whitey = Targety

Where C = color of choice (primary and secondaries) and xy are my Hue/Saturation free measurements?

I can then do this for 0%, 25%, and 50% as well. Right? But of course, I'm still confused on how to set target luminance (Y). I suppose I may have to go with zoyd's GCD disc and spreadsheet. Be nice if I can use the AVS709 CD though too.

Last edited by pisymbol; 10-15-2014 at 08:10 AM.
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post #4641 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 07:07 AM
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Just a suggestion: You can get the i1D3 used on eBay and Amazon. I bought mine for about $180 new.
Yea, will do that. It would be the best but not easy to find one.
I already have i1 pro, the colorimeter will be profiled anyway, so I wouldn't mind cheaper option as long as it's reliable and fast.
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post #4642 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 08:33 AM
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I don't believe that HCFR gives you the Y targets for the colors but it does list a % value of how much you are off the target luminance value. Just increment/decrement accordingly and do another sweep. I think Excel sheets also work as long as there aren't any issues with the calculations in the sheet and the right inputs are provided.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recommended calibration settings for Samsung PN60F5300B
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post #4643 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I don't believe that HCFR gives you the Y targets for the colors but it does list a % value of how much you are off the target luminance value. Just increment/decrement accordingly and do another sweep. I think Excel sheets also work as long as there aren't any issues with the calculations in the sheet and the right inputs are provided.
Should I start at 75% and go back, or start from 0% and go forward, or does it even matter?
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post #4644 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
Should I start at 75% and go back, or start from 0% and go forward, or does it even matter?
Not sure I understand your question. Unlike Grayscale, with color, you only have one CMS control for each color, so you have no individual control to match luminance and chromaticity for each saturation value of a color.

So your options are to either:
1) Select a specific saturation value (typically 100% or 75%) of a color, and use the CMS controls to minimize dE for that color by matching chromaticity and luminance as well as possible

2) Perform a saturation sweep (25 - 100% saturation) for a given color. Then tweak the CMS control for that color with a view to minimizing dE for 25-75% saturations as a whole rather than targeting the dE for a specific saturation target. This may require compromises on accuracy of 100% saturation reading or even across all saturation targets in order to achieve an overall lower dE across the 25-75% saturation targets.

If you are doing option 1, then you don't need to even do saturation sweeps for the tweaking/calibration. Looks like you have 75% selected, so just use the relevant patches when doing your primary/secondary measurements and minimize dE accordingly. Btw, does AVS709 have 75% Saturation, 75% Luminance patterns? AFAIK, the 75% color patterns are 75% saturation at 100% luminance?

If you are doing option 2, then make a full sweep measurement first. Then examine the CIE chart and the % luminance target values in the table and determine the next iteration of hue, saturation and luminance (brightness) tweaks to apply for that color. Make small increments, then redo the sweep. Note if you made improvements and try to minimize average dE across 25-75% saturation targets.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recommended calibration settings for Samsung PN60F5300B
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post #4645 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
75% saturation x= .75*(Cx-whitex)+whitex = Targetx
75% saturation y= .75*(Cy-whitey)+whitey = Targety
The above only works in CIE31 space (x,y,Y) ... do not attempt this in CIE76 ... In fact, I'm not sure it works for anything other than power-law with gamma=2.22 even in CIE31.

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But of course, I'm still confused on how to set target luminance (Y).
This is gamma dependent ... to be honest, I'm not sure how well Zoyd has baked in gamma in the saturation grids ... particularly so for BT1886. With my previous "victim" there wasn't much do be done for the saturation or luminance, only the hue adjustment was worthwhile. Thus, I haven't had the opportunity to fully investigate/test HCFR on this task.

Edit: In theory, if you're using the "75% of 709" Primary/Secondary measures you would just adjust the CMS saturation and "brightness" controls until you get the S(saturation) and V(roughly luminance) bars balanced as close to 100% as you can.

Last edited by HDTVChallenged; 10-15-2014 at 10:09 AM.
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post #4646 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
option 1, then you don't need to even do saturation sweeps for the tweaking/calibration. Looks like you have 75% selected, so just use the relevant patches when doing your primary/secondary measurements and minimize dE accordingly. Btw, does AVS709 have 75% Saturation, 75% Luminance patterns? AFAIK, the 75% color patterns are 75% saturation at 100% luminance?
They are, but I thought I could use 75% saturation at 100% luminance with the 100% white image.

I need to stare at the GUI some more to see where that target Y % is displayed.
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post #4647 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Not sure I understand your question. Unlike Grayscale, with color, you only have one CMS control for each color, so you have no individual control to match luminance and chromaticity for each saturation value of a color.

So your options are to either:
1) Select a specific saturation value (typically 100% or 75%) of a color, and use the CMS controls to minimize dE for that color by matching chromaticity and luminance as well as possible

2) Perform a saturation sweep (25 - 100% saturation) for a given color. Then tweak the CMS control for that color with a view to minimizing dE for 25-75% saturations as a whole rather than targeting the dE for a specific saturation target. This may require compromises on accuracy of 100% saturation reading or even across all saturation targets in order to achieve an overall lower dE across the 25-75% saturation targets.

If you are doing option 1, then you don't need to even do saturation sweeps for the tweaking/calibration. Looks like you have 75% selected, so just use the relevant patches when doing your primary/secondary measurements and minimize dE accordingly. Btw, does AVS709 have 75% Saturation, 75% Luminance patterns? AFAIK, the 75% color patterns are 75% saturation at 100% luminance?

If you are doing option 2, then make a full sweep measurement first. Then examine the CIE chart and the % luminance target values in the table and determine the next iteration of hue, saturation and luminance (brightness) tweaks to apply for that color. Make small increments, then redo the sweep. Note if you made improvements and try to minimize average dE across 25-75% saturation targets.
Am I looking at the Saturation Luminance graph and trying to get the horizontal lines to converge on the 75% target?

When you say "examine the CIE chart and the % luminance target values in the table" - what table? I don't see a table, what table are you referring too? There are the boxes with xy values for each saturation target, xy. What about Y (luminance)?
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post #4648 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post
The above only works in CIE31 space (x,y,Y) ... do not attempt this in CIE76 ... In fact, I'm not sure it works for anything other than power-law with gamma=2.22 even in CIE31.



This is gamma dependent ... to be honest, I'm not sure how well Zoyd has baked in gamma in the saturation grids ... particularly so for BT1886. With my previous "victim" there wasn't much do be done for the saturation or luminance, only the hue adjustment was worthwhile. Thus, I haven't had the opportunity to fully investigate/test HCFR on this task.

Edit: In theory, if you're using the "75% of 709" Primary/Secondary measures you would just adjust the CMS saturation and "brightness" controls until you get the S(saturation) and V(roughly luminance) bars balanced as close to 100% as you can.
What luminane bars are you talking about? Are you talking about the horizontal lines on the saturation luminance graph?

What has me confused right now is what luminance targets am I shooting for given my gamma.
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post #4649 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
They are, but I thought I could use 75% saturation at 100% luminance with the 100% white image.

I need to stare at the GUI some more to see where that target Y % is displayed.
Yes, that should be fine. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of the difference and that you need to use the corresponding white image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pisymbol View Post
Am I looking at the Saturation Luminance graph and trying to get the horizontal lines to converge on the 75% target?

When you say "examine the CIE chart and the % luminance target values in the table" - what table? I don't see a table, what table are you referring too? There are the boxes with xy values for each saturation target, xy. What about Y (luminance)?
The Excel like table that normally has your grayscale readings. At the top of that sub-window, there is a drop-down menu (red box in the image below). Select the corresponding color to then view the saturation sweep measurements for that color in the cell table. The bottom most row should be the luminance target (in percentage). Alternatively, you could also look at the Luminance Graph. Right click the graph and ensure that luminance targets are also selected as being visible. However the graph can be harder to work with for smaller % errors in luminance.



Edit - Just found this image on the Sourceforge page that shows the luminance bar and the delta Luminance row in the table:

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Recommended calibration settings for Samsung PN60F5300B
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post #4650 of 11933 Old 10-15-2014, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Yes, that should be fine. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of the difference and that you need to use the corresponding white image.


The Excel like table that normally has your grayscale readings. At the top of that sub-window, there is a drop-down menu (red box in the image below). Select the corresponding color to then view the saturation sweep measurements for that color in the cell table. The bottom most row should be the luminance target (in percentage). Alternatively, you could also look at the Luminance Graph. Right click the graph and ensure that luminance targets are also selected as being visible. However the graph can be harder to work with for smaller % errors in luminance.



Edit - Just found this image on the Sourceforge page that shows the luminance bar and the delta Luminance row in the table:
As usual, thank you!

So delta luminance should approach 0% correct for all my saturation sweeps?

EDIT: Oh, I didn't even notice the Luminance bar. Ok, I think I know what to do. Hopefully I can come to you O with a much better grasp of color calibration.

Last edited by pisymbol; 10-15-2014 at 01:54 PM.
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