HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 217 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6481 of 11928 Old 08-25-2015, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceberg86300 View Post
Just your observations though. Unless you have a grey or white card to calibrate your camera's white balance it could be wildly changing images. Even with a good camera it could be mucking things up.
Even with an "accurate" grey card, you will still need to have a calibrated D65 light source. If you use light from the projector to illuminate the grey card, that will mask the errors that your trying to measure.

The only assessment you can make from posted photographs, is whether the colour temperature changes significantly throughout the range (which the OP's TV seems to do).
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post #6482 of 11928 Old 08-25-2015, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Even with an "accurate" grey card, you will still need to have a calibrated D65 light source. If you use light from the projector to illuminate the grey card, that will mask the errors that your trying to measure.

The only assessment you can make from posted photographs, is whether the colour temperature changes significantly throughout the range (which the OP's TV seems to do).
Very true. However, I was just talking about simply using a grey card to set the custom white balance of the camera (if it has one) in whatever the calibrations viewing conditions are.

I guess accurate is the wrong word, apologies. It should be repeatable.


This would provide photos for us to check out for comparison from shot to shot only, and only when the camera is set for manual exposure.

If this is done conclusions can be made from photos that are taken at different adjustment values, and the direction of settings changes need to be noted.

In actuality, a grey card WB balance correction isn't even needed. The camera just needs to have WB correction set so it doesn't change from photo to photo (outdoor, incandescent, florescent, ect doesn't matter, just so long as it's fixed) and exposure needs to be locked as well.

Of course you can't calibrate from photos, but if trends can be seen by the use of multiple photos @ different settings better advice can be given.

Regards,

Steve
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post #6483 of 11928 Old 08-25-2015, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You do not enter any value for the expected gamma when using BT.1886. The "effective gamma" is calculated automatically based on the measured white point and black point.


You don't normally need to use Override black, unless you find it difficult to get a consistent black level reading, or if you prefer a gamma curve different from the one calculated from the measured black point.
Thanks.

Devo
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post #6484 of 11928 Old 08-25-2015, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceberg86300 View Post
This would provide photos for us to check out for comparison from shot to shot only, and only when the camera is set for manual exposure.
I think we are in general agreement, except for a few minor quibbles. (Presumably you meant manual WB, rather than manual exposure).

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The camera just needs to have WB correction set so it doesn't change from photo to photo (outdoor, incandescent, florescent, ect doesn't matter, just so long as it's fixed)
Maybe in theory, but in practice that's not quite true. The human eye is far more sensitive to the difference between 0 (neutral) and 1% blue, than between 30% blue and 31% blue. Correct WB for the reference is very important.

However, we are getting off topic. The real question is why his TV has such a strong blue bias.
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post #6485 of 11928 Old 08-25-2015, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I think we are in general agreement, except for a few minor quibbles. (Presumably you meant manual WB, rather than manual exposure).


Maybe in theory, but in practice that's not quite true. The human eye is far more sensitive to the difference between 0 (neutral) and 1% blue, than between 30% blue and 31% blue. Correct WB for the reference is very important.

However, we are getting off topic. The real question is why his TV has such a strong blue bias.
Yeah, I agree on the agreeing LOL. Actually, I meant both. Anything but auto WB and also use manual exposure. Same ISO, same shutter, same aperture.

Definitely agree on the human eye. Also goes for camera's, which is why you want to kill all auto processing.

Just shoot it in raw LOL.

Basically, even a $5k camera with tons of adjustments will never be an accurate tool for calibrating TV's. But when used correctly it can be a valuable tool to convey certain problems to people on the net.

But yeah, back on topic.

This particular problem may require a venture into the service menu to knock out some blue, shifting the range for adjustment a bit. If that's even possible. Not familiar with this particular set.

Regards,

Steve

Last edited by Iceberg86300; 08-25-2015 at 04:43 PM.
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post #6486 of 11928 Old 08-25-2015, 08:31 PM
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Does it make sense to use BT.1886 gamma for video games on IPS monitors? It seems to only make sense to use for FILMS, not video games. We don't know which gamma is used during film mastering and even if we do, we cannot always re-create that image due to difference between mastering TV's black levels and viewer TV's black levels. This is why BT.1886 gamma makes sense for film viewing/playback.

HOWEVER, almost all AAA games are exclusively developed on IPS monitors with ~1000:1 contrast ratio and power-law gamma 2.22 after calibration*. By using power-law gamma 2.22 to view video games, you actually WOULD get to see the image was it was developed. Therefore, BT.1886 is only useful for film viewing and possibly TN monitors with contrast ratio below 1000:1...

*Some game studios do not calibrate their monitors at all, in which case, it really doesn't matter which gamma curve tone is used - you're not going to see the game as it was developed as it is possible that each graphics designer saw the image differently due to lack of standardization...
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post #6487 of 11928 Old 08-25-2015, 09:34 PM
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Minor bug latest version

Hi Zoyd,

I found a minor bug. The colour checker on the measures page has a broken delete button and the button mouseover popup is using the text from the go button.
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post #6488 of 11928 Old 08-27-2015, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceberg86300 View Post
In regards to external sources, they should all output the same.

In reality they often don't, but this depends on what sources you have chosen as well as the TV.

I haven't really done any more calibrating, but thought I would do a little testing on how different devices handled the greyscale, with interesting results. Originally I would have sworn I could see differences when using different devices to run through the same test patterns, but all were pretty much in line with each other. This includes my Pioneer BD player, my Humax 4Tune PVR, and my Xbox One.

But when measuring the greyscale using my laptop connected directly via HDMI (to the same input source), the measured curve was noticeably higher. Additionally, the actual reference curve also seems to sit higher, so would there be a difference in the way the HCFR auto patterns are measured? Would my Windows theme settings (already calibrated via ColorMunki Display software) have an impact?

I have attached my greyscale checks for each device, as well as two images highlighting the difference between my regular sources and my laptop (HCFR Laptop via HDMI vs Pioneer BD player HDMI). Any thoughts on this? Note that the measurements were taken of Movie mode, uncalibrated with colour temp set to Low.

Cheers!
Attached Thumbnails
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ID:	910074   Click image for larger version

Name:	Graph - AVSHD USB via Pioneer BD.png
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File Type: zip Movie - Low Temp - Uncalibrated greyscale checks.zip (59.9 KB, 13 views)
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post #6489 of 11928 Old 08-27-2015, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemery76 View Post
But when measuring the greyscale using my laptop connected directly via HDMI (to the same input source), the measured curve was noticeably higher.
Is your TV set for full range (0-255) or limited range (16-235)? The "Laptop - HDMI direct - HCFR Auto" measurement shows a much higher black point and a lower white point, which usually indicates a range mismatch.

Quote:
Additionally, the actual reference curve also seems to sit higher, so would there be a difference in the way the HCFR auto patterns are measured?
Since you're using BT.1886, the reference curve will vary depending on the measure black point and white point.

Quote:
Would my Windows theme settings (already calibrated via ColorMunki Display software) have an impact?
If you have calibrated the display previously using the ColorMunki Display software, that will modify the test values being sent to the TV, unless you disable the loading of the LUT during startup.
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post #6490 of 11928 Old 08-27-2015, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chchrlam View Post
Hi Zoyd,

I found a minor bug. The colour checker on the measures page has a broken delete button and the button mouseover popup is using the text from the go button.
Another minor issue: the "Override black" option is not being saved or compared for Preference Mismatch.
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post #6491 of 11928 Old 08-28-2015, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Is your TV set for full range (0-255) or limited range (16-235)? The "Laptop - HDMI direct - HCFR Auto" measurement shows a much higher black point and a lower white point, which usually indicates a range mismatch.


Since you're using BT.1886, the reference curve will vary depending on the measure black point and white point.


If you have calibrated the display previously using the ColorMunki Display software, that will modify the test values being sent to the TV, unless you disable the loading of the LUT during startup.

Movie mode does provide two Colour Gamut options: Standard or Extended. Would these basically translate to 16-235 vs 0-255? Perhaps that is whats going on.
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post #6492 of 11928 Old 08-28-2015, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemery76 View Post
Movie mode does provide two Colour Gamut options: Standard or Extended. Would these basically translate to 16-235 vs 0-255? Perhaps that is whats going on.
The signal range should be independent of the Gamut options. In most cases, the "PC mode" uses 0-255, while other video modes use 16-235.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-28-2015 at 06:26 AM.
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post #6493 of 11928 Old 08-28-2015, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Another minor issue: the "Override black" option is not being saved or compared for Preference Mismatch.
This was intentional because use of the black override option is meant for a particular hardware set-up (probe + display) in which blacks can't reliably be measured. It's not a sharable preference like gamut options.
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post #6494 of 11928 Old 08-28-2015, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
This was intentional because use of the black override option is meant for a particular hardware set-up (probe + display) in which blacks can't reliably be measured. It's not a sharable preference like gamut options.
I had it set for my own TV. When I opened someone else's chc file, HCFR "inherited" all of his preferences but retained my black override, which of course "distorts" the target values.

I guess I just need to keep this behaviour in mind.
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post #6495 of 11928 Old 08-28-2015, 01:16 PM
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When checking gray scale, what is an acceptable difference between Y target and measured Y? For example, at 40% I've got Y target = 22.449 and I'm measuring 22.182 with a Delta E of 0.7

Should I try and get the Y closer or will I not really see much difference?
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post #6496 of 11928 Old 08-28-2015, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dstay22 View Post
When checking gray scale, what is an acceptable difference between Y target and measured Y? For example, at 40% I've got Y target = 22.449 and I'm measuring 22.182 with a Delta E of 0.7

Should I try and get the Y closer or will I not really see much difference?
Rule of thumb is <2.0 is not visible. 0.7 is good/very good, <0.5 is very good/excellent.

If you have a 10 pt. white balance control you might consider taking 20 pt. measurements. Typically spikes occur between 10 points and those can be smoothed using the 10 pt. controls.
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post #6497 of 11928 Old 08-28-2015, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bmcn View Post
Rule of thumb is <2.0 is not visible. 0.7 is good/very good, <0.5 is very good/excellent.

If you have a 10 pt. white balance control you might consider taking 20 pt. measurements. Typically spikes occur between 10 points and those can be smoothed using the 10 pt. controls.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but doesn't dE only give us the xy measurement. Luminance isn't taken into account for dE, correct? What I was trying to find out is: what is the acceptable difference between target Y and measured Y. Once again, using my example above, for 40% gray scale, I've got Y target = 22.449 and I'm measuring 22.182. I believe that's a little over 1% difference. It it worth making adjustments when we're within that range?

Thanks for your help.
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post #6498 of 11928 Old 08-28-2015, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dstay22 View Post
I believe that's a little over 1% difference. It it worth making adjustments when we're within that range?

Thanks for your help.
Have a 4% difference between measured and target Y at one point on my most recent cal that was termed 'near perfect', so I wouldn't sweat it.
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post #6499 of 11928 Old 08-28-2015, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dstay22 View Post
Maybe I'm mistaken, but doesn't dE only give us the xy measurement. Luminance isn't taken into account for dE, correct?
That is indeed the default, but HCFR provides the option to include gamma in the calculation of dE, which would factor in the luminance.
Advanced->Preferences->Advanced->Gray Scale dE Handling
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post #6500 of 11928 Old 08-28-2015, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemery76 View Post
Movie mode does provide two Colour Gamut options: Standard or Extended. Would these basically translate to 16-235 vs 0-255? Perhaps that is whats going on.
No not at all. Some have had good luck calibrating Extended while others find it easier to use Standard. I believe the Sharps exclusively use the Color Gamut for the additional yellow sub pixel they employed.
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post #6501 of 11928 Old 08-29-2015, 03:14 AM
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Hi Guys - I am the owner of a LG 65UB950v which i have tried to calibrate (with the help of BlueChris).
Main issue is that no matter what i do, i can't seem to hit the 2.2 Gamma curve. I have tried to alter my Contrast, Brigtness, Backlight, RGB values and it seems to have no or limited effect.

Test setup: Spyder3 + HCFR - Test patterns on USB played directly on TV.
The TV is placed in a mainly bright living room, so i'm basically aiming for a luminance of above 115-120.

I have attached my HCFR file.

Can you see what i'm doing wrong?

Settings:
Backlight 49
Contrast 80
Brightness 52
H-sharpness 9
V-sharpness 9
Color 57
Tint G4

Red S:T:L = -18:15:30
Green S:T:L = -14:-20:-30
Blue S:T:L = -7:-12:17
Cyan S:T:L = -13:14:-13
Magenta S:T:L = -23:30:30
Yellow S:T:L = -21:-20:-15

White Balance
--------------
Colour Temperature: Warm2

Method: 2 point control
Point : High | R30 | G29 | B-15
Point : Low | R-2 | G-4 | B-2

Method: 20 point control
Luminance 130
IRE5 | R0 | G0 | B0
IRE10 | R-5 | G0 | B-7
IRE15 | R3 | G2| B4
IRE20 | R-1 | G-4 | B-3
IRE25 | R-12 | G-12 | B-10
IRE30 | R-12 | G-16 | B-15
IRE35 | R-15 | G-19 | B-19
IRE40 | R-17 | G-22 | B-22
IRE45 | R-16 | G-24 | B-25
IRE50 | R-12 | G-20 | B-23
IRE55 | R-7 | G-11 | B-18
IRE60 | R0 | G-5 | B-8
IRE65 | R2 | G-5 | B-4
IRE70 | R1 | G2 | B2
IRE75 | R3 | G0 | B2
IRE80 | R0 | G0 | B0
IRE85 | R0 | G0 | B0
IRE90 | R0 | G0 | B0
IRE95 | R0 | G0 | B0
IRE100 | R0 | G0 | B0
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post #6502 of 11928 Old 08-29-2015, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higate View Post
Hi Guys - I am the owner of a LG 65UB950v which i have tried to calibrate (with the help of BlueChris).
Main issue is that no matter what i do, i can't seem to hit the 2.2 Gamma curve. I have tried to alter my Contrast, Brigtness, Backlight, RGB values and it seems to have no or limited effect.
1. Have you tried selecting a higher preset value of gamma? [Note: some manufacturers may use non-standard terms to denote higher/lower gamma]
2. Have you checked for clipping? If there's clipping, decrease the contrast
3. Decreasing the R/G/B values in the range 70-90 IRE should boost the gamma, and yet your controls are all at or near 0.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-29-2015 at 05:11 AM.
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post #6503 of 11928 Old 08-29-2015, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higate View Post
Green S:T:L = -14:-20:-30
In my limited experience with my own sets, I've found that green affects gamma more than the others, and you've got yours dropped down dramatically (why?). Raising that level and recalibrating may help.
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #6504 of 11928 Old 08-29-2015, 08:16 AM
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@higate i don't know if everyone agrees here but here is what i would do
1. Recheck the black and white clipping, 80 contrast seems high in our set at least 75 to me was in the limit.
2. Reset the color management numbers and the 20pt numbers and with the 2pt high try to alter it and in hcfr watch what @LastButNotLeast told you by watching 70-90 ire to drop down at 2.2 gamma no matter what the whole scale do.
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post #6505 of 11928 Old 08-30-2015, 07:30 AM
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Ok i did a quick calibration again -
1) Checked for Clipping = No Clipping
2) Reset CMS = had no effect on results at all
3) Lowered my Contrast to 75 and Backlight 45 for testing = had a small effect but basically the gamma curve just moved from 2.3-1.8 to 2.5-2.0.
4) Used Gamma 2.4 = had a small effect but basically the gamma curve just moved from 2.3-1.8 to 2.5-2.0.
5) Tried to alter RGB for 70-90 IRE = Has no effect at all - this is actually also the same for 45-100 IRE if 2point calibration has been performed.

The weird thing is, that i can alter RGB for 70-90 IRE so they are almost spot on - but as soon as i jump out of the Greyscale menu all measurements show the same as prior to altering RGB.
I know that the LG has a bug in its menu, so basically all measurements has to be done without MENU being open, since it brightens all of the picture. But why in the world my alternings has no effect at all for 45-100IRE when 2 point has been used, does not give any sense.

This is whats happening:

Within greyscale menu for IRE 70:
RGB=0/0/0
x=311
y=327
Y=70.300

I jump out of the menue:
x=310
y=324
Y=60.213

I go back withing menu again:
RGB=-25/-30/-40
x=313
y=328
Y=56.500

I jump out of the menue:
x=310
y=324
Y=60.213

The above example is the same for 45-100 IRE. For below 45IRE it works fine.
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post #6506 of 11928 Old 08-30-2015, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higate View Post
5) Tried to alter RGB for 70-90 IRE = Has no effect at all - this is actually also the same for 45-100 IRE if 2point calibration has been performed.
Yes, it does seem to indicate a bug in the firmware.
With my 4-year old LG TV, the 2-point and 10-point adjustments are mutually exclusive, i.e., they override each other, rather than supplement each other.
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post #6507 of 11928 Old 08-30-2015, 08:36 AM
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@higate question m8. If you put my numbers what is your grayscale and gamma? Can you do that and save the hcfr session? I wanna see it but put everything exactly as i have them everything.
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post #6508 of 11928 Old 08-30-2015, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
@higate question m8. If you put my numbers what is your grayscale and gamma? Can you do that and save the hcfr session? I wanna see it but put everything exactly as i have them everything.
Here you go m8...

I also did CMS measurement just for the panel comparison sake :-)
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post #6509 of 11928 Old 08-31-2015, 01:33 AM
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Hi All,

yesterday i tried to calibrate my TV Samsung LE46A786 using HCFR (Spyder5), Teds Disc and Curt Palmes guide (old version) after some help from Ted i could calibrate greyscale quite good. According to the guide it is calibrated near to excellent right now but somehow i do not really believe it

Gamma for example is nearly perfect at 2.2 ... according to my measurements after setting the TV s gamms setting to zero and adjusting greyscale.

I can post my results later on.

I used Mediaplayer Classic to display the patterns and set the output to "untouched as input"
The nvidia card is set to output RGB at Full Range 0-255
LAV video filter is used to setup the output of the player.

Going on with the Primary and secondary Color calibration i would need your help:
Which patterns on the disc are best to use ?
Which settings do i have to change within HCFR if i use Chromapure patterns as recomended?

My first try resulted in completly way of primary colors after trying to calibrate CYAN according to Curt Palmes guide... without doing the secondary colors primary's look quite good (unfortunately i can post results now i will do s later this afternoon)

Are there any new tips to calibrate colors with HCFR, Spyder 5 and Ted`s disc?

Greetings

Felix
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post #6510 of 11928 Old 08-31-2015, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higate View Post
Here you go m8...

I also did CMS measurement just for the panel comparison sake :-)
Ok i watched your results and what i see is strange. Till now i had put my 950 settings in 2 850 tv's with minor differences not more than 2-3% but what i see in yours is pretty big. I dont know if the gurus here have seen so much difference in almost identical TV's. Did you ever change anything in Service menu in grayscale numbers? and if yes can you tell me what are your numbers now?. A strange thing also is that with this settings i get 124Y in 100IRE and you get 112Y so this is big difference to me. Are you sure that your Spider3 is in good condition?

I assume that everything is right so i go to the results now... i will try to explain some things as an examble to try.
If you see the gamma scale its almost straight (ignoring the differences in the 3 colors) even though gamma is going high slowly above 60IRE till 100. Now if you click in measures the 80Ire you will see in middle left in the 3 RGB bars this
Red 87,8
Green 104,7
Blue 89.3
Also HCFR tells you according your 100 ire that in 80IRE the Y target must be 68.395 and you have now 70.107. This is exactly what is shown in the gamma result screen.. you see there that you are going in 3 colors from 2 to 2.1 gamma. Now to me you need to go to 2pt high and try to fix the 3 bars in 80IRE, as i see it you need to lower the Green slowly and then free measure only the 80IRE till you see it dead straight at 2.2. If lowering the green is not enough to make the gamma at 2.2 then after you equalize them then reduce them equal till you achieve the 2.2
One problem is that the 20pt numbers that you had put interfere to the overall gamma so better reset the 20pt (for me also reset the CMS values) then do in 2pt high what i explained above.. if you understand how the grayscale even if it is ΔΕ=0 affects the gamma thats my main goal for you atm.
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Last edited by BlueChris; 08-31-2015 at 11:40 AM.
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