HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 218 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6511 of 11804 Old 08-31-2015, 11:42 AM
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Please keep this in mind:
http://referencehometheater.com/2013...ults-compared/
BlueChris and higate like this.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
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post #6512 of 11804 Old 08-31-2015, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Thx m8 very interesting and the article had the vt60 which came out from a better production line and it was the top notch product and with this in mind i suppose the differencies between our panels with @higate maybe are big its just i cannot accept sooooo big differences. For examble everywhere i looked for the lg lcd's calibrations most people reduce a ton of blue like myne and @higate s suddenly needs very little blue down that's why i ask him about his spyder3 situation and if he altered his numbers of grayscale in his service menu.
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post #6513 of 11804 Old 08-31-2015, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
Ok i watched your results and what i see is strange. Till now i had put my 950 settings in 2 850 tv's with minor differences not more than 2-3% but what i see in yours is pretty big. I dont know if the gurus here have seen so much difference in almost identical TV's. Did you ever change anything in Service menu in grayscale numbers? and if yes can you tell me what are your numbers now?. A strange thing also is that with this settings i get 124Y in 100IRE and you get 112Y so this is big difference to me. Are you sure that your Spider3 is in good condition?

I assume that everything is right so i go to the results now... i will try to explain some things as an examble to try.
If you see the gamma scale its almost straight (ignoring the differences in the 3 colors) even though gamma is going high slowly above 60IRE till 100. Now if you click in measures the 80Ire you will see in middle left in the 3 RGB bars this
Red 87,8
Green 104,7
Blue 89.3
Also HCFR tells you according your 100 ire that in 80IRE the Y target must be 68.395 and you have now 70.107. This is exactly what is shown in the gamma result screen.. you see there that you are going in 3 colors from 2 to 2.1 gamma. Now to me you need to go to 2pt high and try to fix the 3 bars in 80IRE, as i see it you need to lower the Green slowly and then free measure only the 80IRE till you see it dead straight at 2.2. If lowering the green is not enough to make the gamma at 2.2 then after you equalize them then reduce them equal till you achieve the 2.2
One problem is that the 20pt numbers that you had put interfere to the overall gamma so better reset the 20pt (for me also reset the CMS values) then do in 2pt high what i explained above.. if you understand how the grayscale even if it is ΔΕ=0 affects the gamma thats my main goal for you atm.
@BlueChris
First thing I have done today is to order a new sensor instead of the Spyder 3 - because I also suspected the sensor to making errors. Anyways I have ordered the Xrite ColorMunki Display (hope this is a good choose). What I will do as soon as i receive it, is to do a new measurement with your values again, just for comparison. After that i will look into your description above and see if i somehow can make this work.
Two question:
1) Do you use Window pattern or Fields (fullscreen)?
2) Any special settings for HCFR i should know about? (Refresh - Non Refresh display etc.)
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post #6514 of 11804 Old 08-31-2015, 02:58 PM
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I think in latest hcfr version when you open a saved session you get all the settings with it if i understood right from @Zoid updates but i don't have anything special. I have 5% APL, 50% windows and i had raised the reading time in my i1d3 to 0.8s to have better reading under 20 IRE but i use GDI with the embedded hcfr patterns which is the fastest calibration scenario for me since i use a pc to calibrate but i had also tested my calibration with my bluray player with the AVS disk and 10% grayscale window patterns. You know when you use HCFR embedded patterns you dont click nothing for examble in a full grayscale sweep and finishes damn fast with my i1d3 pro, i just click and watch lol. In my early calibrations i needed 5-6 hours straight...now i finish under 3 hours (after i need more than 7 hours for a full 3dlut creation with 11000+ samples but this is happening as i sleep). Btw how much you bought the colormunki? I ask because i1d3 that most people use i bought it from amazon under 200€.

Last edited by BlueChris; 08-31-2015 at 03:04 PM.
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post #6515 of 11804 Old 08-31-2015, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
This was intentional because use of the black override option is meant for a particular hardware set-up (probe + display) in which blacks can't reliably be measured. It's not a sharable preference like gamut options.
Just noticed something "weird" with the RGB Levels graph. If I changed the Reference from "REC 709" to "REC 709 (75%/75%)", the R/G/B graphs change slightly, even though the values in the Measures grid remain unchanged (as they should).
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post #6516 of 11804 Old 08-31-2015, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Just noticed something "weird" with the RGB Levels graph. If I changed the Reference from "REC 709" to "REC 709 (75%/75%)", the R/G/B graphs change slightly, even though the values in the Measures grid remain unchanged (as they should).
Are the scales the same on both graphs?

During more than a few weekly labs attached to a vibrations course in college my group made a few others go bat nuts crazy with this. Everybody usually gets the basic data but we seemed to be the only group that adjusted the defaults in excel so we used up the entire Y axis. Difference was slight, but enough to make others pull their hair out thinking they performed the lab incorrectly.

Just a thought.

Regards,

Steve
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post #6517 of 11804 Old 08-31-2015, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Iceberg86300 View Post
Are the scales the same on both graphs?
I did not switch the graph; only changed the Preference while the graph was being displayed. The scale remained unchanged, but the graphs themselves jumped slightly (e.g., from 95% to 93%).
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post #6518 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
I think in latest hcfr version when you open a saved session you get all the settings with it if i understood right from @Zoid updates but i don't have anything special. I have 5% APL, 50% windows and i had raised the reading time in my i1d3 to 0.8s to have better reading under 20 IRE but i use GDI with the embedded hcfr patterns which is the fastest calibration scenario for me since i use a pc to calibrate but i had also tested my calibration with my bluray player with the AVS disk and 10% grayscale window patterns. You know when you use HCFR embedded patterns you dont click nothing for examble in a full grayscale sweep and finishes damn fast with my i1d3 pro, i just click and watch lol. In my early calibrations i needed 5-6 hours straight...now i finish under 3 hours (after i need more than 7 hours for a full 3dlut creation with 11000+ samples but this is happening as i sleep). Btw how much you bought the colormunki? I ask because i1d3 that most people use i bought it from amazon under 200€.
I started out by using the window also but changed to fields since the local dimming effect was less. I do consider to use the embedded test patterns from HCFR, but need to know what settings i should use on my laptop graphic card so it does effect the results.
Also when i start the HCFR i don't change any settings so basically i'm using at it is.
I purchased the ColorMunki from a danish online shop for around 148€.
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post #6519 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higate View Post
I started out by using the window also but changed to fields since the local dimming effect was less. I do consider to use the embedded test patterns from HCFR, but need to know what settings i should use on my laptop graphic card so it does effect the results.
Also when i start the HCFR i don't change any settings so basically i'm using at it is.
I purchased the ColorMunki from a danish online shop for around 148€.
You got a good price and either way is same hardware for ColorMunki and i1d3 just the ColorMunki doesnt have the ambient sensor and is a bit slower in readings but thats fine.
What graphic card has your laptop? either way i use YcBcR 444 in my Nvidia 970 because there is a bug in our TV and this is that when i had my pc at full RGB in the TV the Black Setting needs to be to HIGH but the problem is that if you close the tv and reopen it then the tv goes to low the black setting even though is showing HIGH... to compensate this i use YcBCr444 and i am totally fine since im only using the TV for movies.
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post #6520 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 05:06 AM
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RGB instead of HLS

Hi Guys,

can anyone tell me if there is a way to change from HLS to RGB in HCFR when calibrating primarys and secondarys?
My Samsung TV has RGB Gamut Controls and not HLS.

Or is there any to match the measurements in order make the right color correction using RGB for every Color?

Best regards

PS:

Am i right its this option? (attached image)
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Last edited by RoninF; 09-01-2015 at 05:53 AM. Reason: possible solution
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post #6521 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
You got a good price and either way is same hardware for ColorMunki and i1d3 just the ColorMunki doesnt have the ambient sensor and is a bit slower in readings but thats fine.
The ColorMunki Display has an ambient configuration. It's the same hardware, just different firmware.
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post #6522 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
The ColorMunki Display has an ambient configuration. It's the same hardware, just different firmware.
Also colormunky display support only hcfr but i1d3 suport all (chroma pure,calman ...)
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post #6523 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by s1andel View Post
Also colormunky display support only hcfr ...
and ArgyllCMS and ColorMeter.
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post #6524 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoninF View Post
can anyone tell me if there is a way to change from HLS to RGB in HCFR when calibrating primarys and secondarys?
My Samsung TV has RGB Gamut Controls and not HLS.
Which version of HCFR are you using? Mine (3.3.5) uses RGB unless the option "Use HSV Level Bars" is manually checked.
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post #6525 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Which version of HCFR are you using? Mine (3.3.5) uses RGB unless the option "Use HSV Level Bars" is manually checked.
When should I check that box? What does it do?
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post #6526 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
When should I check that box? What does it do?
It depends on whether you prefer to look at RGB or HSV values when you calibrate your primarily and secondary colours. One may be easier than the other, depending what your TV CMS controls do.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 09-01-2015 at 02:49 PM.
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post #6527 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Which version of HCFR are you using? Mine (3.3.5) uses RGB unless the option "Use HSV Level Bars" is manually checked.
I am using the latest version meanwhile
But i guess settings have been correct then i was just wondering as Ted told me i might have to change a setting within HCFR to be bale to calibrate color gamut correctly. I thought it might have been the option i showed on the picture in my last post...
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post #6528 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 02:56 PM
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I have now made a complete measurement with my new ColorMunki with @BlueChris settings just for comparison between my Spyder3 and Colormunki. (see attachment)

I followed your description @BlueChris and reset all settings to start with.
I put my Backlight and Contrast so I have luminance 125.
Measuring IRE80 indicated that needed to lower luminance to 77 (currently at 82) - so i did this and changed RGB so i was now measuring 100% on R/G/B including x=313,y=329 and Luminance was spot on. Did the same for IRE30 and went back and forth until everything was spot on.
Now going back to measure IRE100 I see my luminance has dropped to 113 and therefor my IRE80 and IRE30 are too high (since i calibrated this after Luminance 120).
This makes it impossible for me to hit the correct luminance since my changes are having effect on the IRE100.

What am i doing wrong?
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post #6529 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 03:49 PM
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M8 what do you see in gamma? i opened your file and only blue is ok at 80IRE... red and green are total off... all 3 colors must be in there correct.


Last edited by BlueChris; 09-01-2015 at 03:54 PM.
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post #6530 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoninF View Post
I thought it might have been the option i showed on the picture in my last post...
Those options determine what gets displayed in the main grid. The "Selected Color" windows (bottom left) always displays RGB unless you specify the HSV option.
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post #6531 of 11804 Old 09-01-2015, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higate View Post
I put my Backlight and Contrast so I have luminance 125.
Measuring IRE80 indicated that needed to lower luminance to 77 (currently at 82) - so i did this and changed RGB so i was now measuring 100% on R/G/B including x=313,y=329 and Luminance was spot on. Did the same for IRE30 and went back and forth until everything was spot on.
Now going back to measure IRE100 I see my luminance has dropped to 113 and therefor my IRE80 and IRE30 are too high (since i calibrated this after Luminance 120).
You cannot use 2-point controls to change the gamma. They affect 0/100 more than the in-between values (30/80) that you were measuring.
You have to use 10-point so that 30/80 are not affecting 0/100.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 09-01-2015 at 04:58 PM.
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post #6532 of 11804 Old 09-02-2015, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
M8 what do you see in gamma? i opened your file and only blue is ok at 80IRE... red and green are total off... all 3 colors must be in there correct.

The file i attached was with your settings only - I didn't copy/take screenshot of my own settings, that i described unfortunately. I can do this when I get home.
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post #6533 of 11804 Old 09-02-2015, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You cannot use 2-point controls to change the gamma. They affect 0/100 more than the in-between values (30/80) that you were measuring.
You have to use 10-point so that 30/80 are not affecting 0/100.
So your suggestion is to not complete a 2 point to start with and go to (in my case) 20 point instead?
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post #6534 of 11804 Old 09-02-2015, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Those options determine what gets displayed in the main grid. The "Selected Color" windows (bottom left) always displays RGB unless you specify the HSV option.
Got it!!

Thanks for the info.

Can someone maybe have a look at my two measurements for greyscale from yesterday and give me some more tips on how to improve?
Which of these settings would you take for further improvements?

Hardware is as follows:

TV Samsung LE46A786
HCFR Version 3.36
Datacolor Spyder 5

According to several guides one should not use the green value to adjust greyscale... i was not able to get it right without using it.
Is this a noGo or just a if needed you can adjust it ?

I can only adjust greyscale for 2 Points. I this case i used 100IRE and 30 IRE from Teds Disc (Chromapure patterns)

Thanks in Advance

Felix
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Last edited by RoninF; 09-02-2015 at 12:31 AM. Reason: Update
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post #6535 of 11804 Old 09-02-2015, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by higate View Post
So your suggestion is to not complete a 2 point to start with and go to (in my case) 20 point instead?
No, that is not what I'm suggesting, even though with some TVs you can only use 2-point or 10-point, not both.

The "standard" way is to use 2-point to adjust the colour temperature, i.e., use those controls to achieve proper grey balance at these two point (R=G=B), but do not try to use them to achieve a specific luminance level.
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post #6536 of 11804 Old 09-02-2015, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
No, that is not what I'm suggesting, even though with some TVs you can only use 2-point or 10-point, not both.

The "standard" way is to use 2-point to adjust the colour temperature, i.e., use those controls to achieve proper grey balance at these two point (R=G=B), but do not try to use them to achieve a specific luminance level.
OK - Well my grey balance is almost spot on after my 2 point, will only need minor correction with 20 point - so basically only my lumanance is way of at the moment. Will try to forward my measurements later today.

So if I understand you correctly my lumanance should be corrected through 20 point? This is possbile in some degree, though when i hit IRE40++ my changes has little or no effect at all, on the luminance.
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post #6537 of 11804 Old 09-02-2015, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by higate View Post
OK - Well my grey balance is almost spot on after my 2 point, will only need minor correction with 20 point - so basically only my lumanance is way of at the moment. Will try to forward my measurements later today.
Your grey balance may be spot on, but you had also inadvertently reduced the 100IRE luminance from 125 (or 120?) down to 113. You should reset the controls and redo them, only aiming for grey balance this time; i.e., adjust only 2 of the 3 colours to get the correct grey balance, do not adjust all 3 colours.
Quote:
So if I understand you correctly my lumanance should be corrected through 20 point? This is possbile in some degree, though when i hit IRE40++ my changes has little or no effect at all, on the luminance.
Most likely it's due the the "control displacement" that happens with some TVs. When that happens, changes to the IRE80 control may affect the IRE75 point instead (as an example), so it appears that the control has no effect (since you're monitoring IRE80 point during the adjustment.
To confirm that, reset the 20-point controls, and then make some extreme adjustments (e.g., blue set to maximum) to IRE30 and IRE80. Then run a grey scale sweep to see that effects those controls make.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 09-02-2015 at 08:14 AM.
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post #6538 of 11804 Old 09-02-2015, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoninF View Post
Can someone maybe have a look at my two measurements for greyscale from yesterday and give me some more tips on how to improve?
Brightness setting 35 may be a little too high; it has "lifted" the black point. In addition to the usual (visual) adjustment, I find it useful to run the HCFR "Near Black Gray Scale" to confirm that there's no clipping.

Quote:
According to several guides one should not use the green value to adjust greyscale... i was not able to get it right without using it.
Is this a noGo or just a if needed you can adjust it ?
This is mentioned in many guides, but there are no problems adjusting the green value. The reason for the "guideline" is that green has a much bigger effect on luminance than red and blue, but that is not really an "issue".
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post #6539 of 11804 Old 09-02-2015, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The grey balance may be spot on, but you had also inadvertently reduced the 100IRE from 125 (or 120?) down to 113. You should reset the controls and redo them, only aiming for grey balance this time; i.e., adjust only 2 of the 3 colours to get the correct grey balance, do not adjust all 3 colours.

Most likely it's due the the "control displacement" that happens with some TVs. When that happens, changes to the IRE80 control may affect the IRE75 point instead (as an example), so it appears that the control has no effect (since you're monitoring IRE80 point during the adjustment.
To confirm that, reset the 20-point controls, and then make some extreme adjustments (e.g., blue set to maximum) to IRE30 and IRE80. Then run a grey scale sweep to see that effects those controls make.
You are right my friend... in our TV its starting from 10IRE with +5IRE and grows expodentially to 100IRE with +20IRE thats why my 20pt calibration doesnt touch anything above 80IRE.

BTW i want to share something that i had explained to @higate that was a long headache for me and this is the bug that LG Grayscale has when you have open the menu you get +30-40% up in luminance.

My main goal was when i was doing a full sweep and later i wanted to make corrections to the numbers inside the 20pt (2pt also) and that wasnt behave in edits correctly. I mean for examble i see in HCFR that at 60IRE i need a bit of red so i go normally at 20pt grayscale menu and at 60IRE i add a bit of red but i end up changing the 80IRE.

So why this is huppening? well i dont know exactly why LG did that but here is the solution to know exactly where you must edit and what is the LG Logic behind this.

Lets assume you do a full sweep grayscale measure and you see that at 100IRE you get 120Y.
Then you go to grayscale menu and you go to 100IRE and there you open in HCFR a new window and you do a free measure of the 100IRE only and that is higher. So there you will see for examble that Luminance is 195Y. Now in the Luminance setting in there in 20pt you put this exact number 195.
We close the 2nd HCFR session and we are in our old session from the 1st measure so now things are simple. We wanted to alter the 60IRE to have more RED so we see in HCFR the Measured Luminance Value at 60IRE, so this must be 72Y.
Now we open again the 20pt control in the TV and we change the IRE% Number till we see in luminance tab of the same menu in tv a number near the 72Y that will be gray. When we will see that whatever we alter in that specific ire it changes the 60IRE exactly as expected, normally from my experience to alter the real 60IRE you play with the 45-50IRE in the TV Menu

Thats it..... i hope this will help some people that brake their b...s with this LG System.. and if anyone with good english can do a helpfull how to on this i suppose many people will be thankfull.

Last edited by BlueChris; 09-02-2015 at 06:54 AM.
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post #6540 of 11804 Old 09-02-2015, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
My main goal was when i was doing a full sweep and later i wanted to make corrections to the numbers inside the 20pt (2pt also) and that wasnt behave in edits correctly. I mean for examble i see in HCFR that at 60IRE i need a bit of red so i go normally at 20pt grayscale menu and at 60IRE i add a bit of red but i end up changing the 80IRE.
Such a major shift is usually caused by the Contrast setting being reduced too much. Try using the Backlight control, rather than the Contrast control, to set your target luminance.
Quote:
Lets assume you do a full sweep grayscale measure and you see that at 100IRE you get 120Y.
Then you go to grayscale menu and you go to 100IRE and there you open in HCFR a new window and you do a free measure of the 100IRE only and that is higher. So there you will see for examble that Luminance is 195Y. Now in the Luminance setting in there in 20pt you put this exact number 195.
I would normally use the Backlight or Contrast control (see above), not the 20-point control, to set the luminance at 100IRE.
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