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post #9601 of 11710 Old 11-29-2017, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valloric View Post
Dominic, are you saying that even if the Smile is not particularly accurate, it will still do a good job in calibrating a uniform grey and nailing down gamma (BT.1886 for me)?

How is that possible? Does the Smile measure greys differently than color?
That’s not what I meant.
If you profile a colorimeter using a spectro, the same correction matrix is applied to all the measurements. Conversely, without the correct profile for a specific display, the same error exists for all measurements. Thus you will get a uniform grey scale, even if the grey is not a perfect (x=0.3127, y=0.3290).
Similarly, the gamma curve is not dependent on the color error, only the relative magnitudes is the grey steps.
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post #9602 of 11710 Old 11-29-2017, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That’s not what I meant.
If you profile a colorimeter using a spectro, the same correction matrix is applied to all the measurements. Conversely, without the correct profile for a specific display, the same error exists for all measurements. Thus you will get a uniform grey scale, even if the grey is not a perfect (x=0.3127, y=0.3290).
Similarly, the gamma curve is not dependent on the color error, only the relative magnitudes is the grey steps.
I think I understand what you're saying. If using the Smile with an LCD correction matrix on the OLED would cause, say, a mild green tint, the grayscale would be uniformly tinted mildly green across the entire intensity range (after calibration) instead of perhaps having various different color tints across the range.

You know, getting a consistent gray and gamma might just be enough. I could just leave color adjustments alone; the B7 is supposed to be pretty good color-wise OOTB (according to the owners thread), it's the gray that's the issue.

Like I mentioned, I'm mainly interested in "pretty good", not perfect. Not sure that chasing perfect is worth another $170 for a different colorimeter.

Thanks for clarifying!

Last edited by Valloric; 11-29-2017 at 09:50 PM.
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post #9603 of 11710 Old 11-29-2017, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
I compared a Smile with a i13d on an OLED of a phone once, and the gamut was completely off.
Depends a bit on your threshold of "completely off".

I just checked my Smile against my i1d3 on a CRT, with the i1d3 set for a custom CRT CCMX against the Smiles two LCD calibration settings, and average dE was 2.5 over all the primaries for both calibration settings. Given the generally poor accuracy of some Colorimeters, and the fact that it doesn't have a CRT calibration, I don't think that's bad at all. But maybe you're right that the Smile is not a good fit for an OLED, given the very low black levels they can produce.
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post #9604 of 11710 Old 11-29-2017, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Depends a bit on your threshold of "completely off".

I just checked my Smile against my i1d3 on a CRT, with the i1d3 set for a custom CRT CCMX against the Smiles two LCD calibration settings, and average dE was 2.5 over all the primaries for both calibration settings. Given the generally poor accuracy of some Colorimeters, and the fact that it doesn't have a CRT calibration, I don't think that's bad at all. But maybe you're right that the Smile is not a good fit for an OLED, given the very low black levels they can produce.
I may do a real comparison soon enough with both the C3 and i1d3 + a i1 Pro as reference on a B7.

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post #9605 of 11710 Old 11-29-2017, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
I may do a real comparison soon enough with both the C3 and i1d3 + a i1 Pro as reference on a B7.
I would love to see the results of such a comparison!
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post #9606 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 04:50 AM
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@Valloric
What I can say right now is that when I got the i1d3 and measured my M55-C2 that I calibrated with the C3 (it's basically a Simple sold by CalMAN), there was too much red, although the white balance was good in regards to linearity. The C3 could only measure luminosity down to about 0.04 nits, and it was at least a few nits off in brighter patterns. It's also considerably slower.
I'll try to do it this weekend, but can't promise anything right now.

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post #9607 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 05:06 AM
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Hi guys, I'm a calibration newbie and and been reading how to start for some time. Very useful links at first page and tried to follow some of the guides there.
I have now borrowed two calibration tools from a friend (i1 display 2+colormunki smile) to begin my amateur calibration.
My plan is to use HCFR+AVSHD 709 to calibrate my LG OLED55B7.
Could someone tell me if I'm the right path or if I missed anything important?

- Installed HCFR on PC
- Installed i1 display 2 USB driver from ArgyllCMS
- Put AVSHD 709 on USB, mounted it on TV
- Go through guide published on curtpalme site (http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457)

Is this a good start? A bit confused so far about starting settings in HCFR, should I consider anything special with my OLED display?
With other words I don't see OLED display as an starting alternative, is LCD the right choice?

Sorry if any dumb questions, trying to learn

Thanks
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post #9608 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 06:00 AM
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@Alfredo_Vic

I'd say that neither of those meters are good enough for calibrating an OLED.
I would recommend against using them.

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post #9609 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 06:30 AM
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Ok, that's unfortunate. I 've seen X-Rite i1Display Pro recommended before, any other good alternatives (prefarable cheaper)?
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post #9610 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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The i1Display Pro (aka i1D3) is the recommended low cost meter. The i1Display 2 (aka i1D2) is not recommended.

I just did a comparison of the Smile to the D3 on an LG B7 and the results were quite good in CCFL mode, and quite bad in White LED mode.

I'll post a summary table later but in White LED mode the probe under reads red by 10%. In CCFL mode max grayscale error was 1.5 dE00 and averaged 0.5 dE00, primary colors averaged 1.2 dE (max 1.9 dE blue), GCD color checkers averaged 0.64 dE, max 1.3 dE orange)

It also followed the luminance very well down to 5% stimulus. (D3 = 0.119 nits, Smile = 0.113 nits) Minimum reading was 0.06 nits on a 4% pattern.

edit: Table of results attached where GS = gray scale, P/S = primaries/secondaries and CC = GCD color checker. I measured against the D3 uncorrected (raw) and corrected to an i1pro. This particular D3 has very small corrections relative to the i1pro so the results are almost identical. Luminance tracking percentages are also shown with the smile measuring slightly less than the D3 but perceptually irrelevant.
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Last edited by zoyd; 11-30-2017 at 09:45 AM.
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post #9611 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 08:55 AM
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@Valloric @Alfredo_Vic

See post above, perhaps I was wrong

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post #9612 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I just did a comparison of the Smile to the D3 on an LG B7 and the results were quite good in CCFL mode, and quite bad in White LED mode.

I'll post a summary table later but in White LED mode the probe under reads red by 10%. In CCFL mode max grayscale error was 1.5 dE00 and averaged 0.5 dE00, primary colors averaged 1.2 dE (max 1.9 dE blue), GCD color checkers averaged 0.64 dE, max 1.3 dE orange)

It also followed the luminance very well down to 5% stimulus. (D3 = 0.119 nits, Smile = 0.113 nits) Minimum reading was 0.06 nits on a 4% pattern.
This is fantastic info, especially the data on which LCD mode is more accurate on an OLED. Thanks a ton!

Man, you guys rock.

@zoyd Sent you a donation over PayPal. The data you shared saved me $170 (don't have to buy a ColorMunki Display); the least I could do is put some of that in your pocket.
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Last edited by Valloric; 11-30-2017 at 09:49 AM.
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post #9613 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
See post above, perhaps I was wrong
It probably depends on the display type you select.
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post #9614 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 09:41 AM
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@The Coolest
What were you wrong about? Don’t follow

@zoyd
Thanks for your reply. For a noob like me, trying to follow your numbers, does this mean smile gives you quite good measurements? Or have I misunderstood the point of your post?

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post #9615 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your reply. For a noob like me, trying to follow your numbers, does this mean smile gives you quite good measurements? Or have I misunderstood the point of your post?
If you choose the CCFL mode for the LG OLED there is no advantage to using a D3 in this test and you would benefit from either for calibration because both are very close to an i1pro spectrometer. Not all meters compare this well though and I don't know if Smile colorimeters are any better or worse in consistency build to build from a D3. But absent a spectrometer I see no reason why you won't get decent results on your display if you use this mode.
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post #9616 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
If you choose the CCFL mode for the LG OLED there is no advantage to using a D3 in this test and you would benefit from either for calibration because both are very close to an i1pro spectrometer. Not all meters compare this well though and I don't know if Smile colorimeters are any better or worse in consistency build to build from a D3. But absent a spectrometer I see no reason why you won't get decent results on your display if you use this mode.
Thank you for your response and effort!
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post #9617 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfredo_Vic View Post
@The Coolest
What were you wrong about? Don’t follow
When I said that the Smile will be way off, apparently it may be quite "on" target.
But it's also possible the unit to unit variations have something to do with the differences I saw.

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post #9618 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
If you choose the CCFL mode for the LG OLED there is no advantage to using a D3 in this test and you would benefit from either for calibration because both are very close to an i1pro spectrometer. Not all meters compare this well though and I don't know if Smile colorimeters are any better or worse in consistency build to build from a D3. But absent a spectrometer I see no reason why you won't get decent results on your display if you use this mode.
So for LG OLED should LCD CCFL be the mode chosen for calibrating when using D3? I went by the generic non-refresh display last time around.
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post #9619 of 11710 Old 11-30-2017, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
So for LG OLED should LCD CCFL be the mode chosen for calibrating when using D3? I went by the generic non-refresh display last time around.
I will need to test that separately to see if there is any benefit.

Edit: I tested the D3 and generic mode was closer to the i1pro than it's CCFL mode.
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post #9620 of 11710 Old 12-01-2017, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I tested the D3 and generic mode was closer to the i1pro than it's CCFL mode.
You mean generic = Non refresh mode in this case?

Also, my LG C7 has a rather inconsistent color uniformity. In the left it reads very much colder than to the right. So, depending on where I put the meter I get different calibration results. Visible ones. As I have read this is quite common on most 2017 LG OLED displays it is worth mentioning as it would affect Zoyds test of the accuracy of meters if not being considered (reading off the exact same spot).

I use an approach of not using contact mode but back off the meter quite a bit to average the readings out and find a spot where it does not read the extremes of the display.

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I've recently bought an Colormunki Photo to be able to profile my i1d3 since I am beginning to doubt it's accuracy. Now I am beginning to doubt the munki... I've tried to find reliable tests on whether that spectro is reliable or not. I found virtually noting other than a test by Dry Creek back in 2011 with a rather small number of devices in the test so the "statistical" outcome may be a bit off. So I am debating myself if to keep it or return it, or buy another i1d3 in case my old one has drifted. An i1pro is not reasonable because of its price. Confused atm...
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Back to plasma calibration woes for a Panasonic VT30. I get frustratingly different readings for grascale depending on what size windows and background APL values I use. This has probably been answered many times, bu my memory does not serve me.

Any recommendations of window size and APL level to use? Different sizes for grascale/gamut and gamma? Using the CC as generator.
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post #9623 of 11710 Old 12-01-2017, 02:54 AM
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Hello everybody,

this is my first post here. But I'm reading since a long time here in different threads.

I've bought a Spyder5pro for my display calibrations (monitor and HDTV). I know it's not suggested/ recommended.
To work in the topic of display calibration I practice with 3 programs: HCFR, Lightspace DSP and displaycal.

Now I've discovered a strange behavior in measuring between these 3 programs:

If I measure RGB white 255,255,255 with:

displaycal --> I receive 120 nits luminance and a whitepoint for D65
lightspace --> I receive 120 nits luminance and a whitepoint for D65

but the measurement with HCFR differs from above results: 145 nits and a whitepoint warmer than D65 (R 100%, G 100%, B 96%).

In my understanding all 3 measurements should be more or less the same result.

(all program settings are identical)

Can anybody explain or help?
Because with this differenz I'm afraid to do a calibration of my HDTV with HCFR if there is a measurement error.

kr

Sven
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post #9624 of 11710 Old 12-01-2017, 03:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
You mean generic = Non refresh mode in this case?
yes

Quote:
Also, my LG C7 has a rather inconsistent color uniformity. In the left it reads very much colder than to the right. So, depending on where I put the meter I get different calibration results. Visible ones. As I have read this is quite common on most 2017 LG OLED displays it is worth mentioning as it would affect Zoyds test of the accuracy of meters if not being considered (reading off the exact same spot).
yes, when comparing meters they need to viewing the same area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
I've recently bought an Colormunki Photo to be able to profile my i1d3 since I am beginning to doubt it's accuracy. Now I am beginning to doubt the munki... I've tried to find reliable tests on whether that spectro is reliable or not. I found virtually noting other than a test by Dry Creek back in 2011 with a rather small number of devices in the test so the "statistical" outcome may be a bit off. So I am debating myself if to keep it or return it, or buy another i1d3 in case my old one has drifted. An i1pro is not reasonable because of its price. Confused atm...
I've tested the munki spectro on a plasma and it was fine, I can repeat the test on an OLED. If you haven't been able to find any negative information on it's performance then I wouldn't worry about until you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
Back to plasma calibration woes for a Panasonic VT30. I get frustratingly different readings for grascale depending on what size windows and background APL values I use. This has probably been answered many times, bu my memory does not serve me.

Any recommendations of window size and APL level to use? Different sizes for grascale/gamut and gamma? Using the CC as generator.
My recommendation for plasmas has always been a smallish window between 5-10% on a gray background of between 10-15% stimulus. And once you decide, stick to it and be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2loud View Post
Hello everybody,

this is my first post here. But I'm reading since a long time here in different threads.

I've bought a Spyder5pro for my display calibrations (monitor and HDTV). I know it's not suggested/ recommended.
To work in the topic of display calibration I practice with 3 programs: HCFR, Lightspace DSP and displaycal.

Now I've discovered a strange behavior in measuring between these 3 programs:

If I measure RGB white 255,255,255 with:

displaycal --> I receive 120 nits luminance and a whitepoint for D65
lightspace --> I receive 120 nits luminance and a whitepoint for D65

but the measurement with HCFR differs from above results: 145 nits and a whitepoint warmer than D65 (R 100%, G 100%, B 96%).

In my understanding all 3 measurements should be more or less the same result.

(all program settings are identical)

Can anybody explain or help?
Because with this differenz I'm afraid to do a calibration of my HDTV with HCFR if there is a measurement error.

kr

Sven
Hi Sven,

Assuming you are using a laptop/PC to display patterns please test a white patch using an external source like a dvd or usb stick. I suspect what you are seeing is related to the video card operation as all these programs have been verified to agree many times.
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post #9625 of 11710 Old 12-01-2017, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2loud View Post
If I measure RGB white 255,255,255 with:

displaycal --> I receive 120 nits luminance and a whitepoint for D65
lightspace --> I receive 120 nits luminance and a whitepoint for D65

but the measurement with HCFR differs from above results: 145 nits and a whitepoint warmer than D65 (R 100%, G 100%, B 96%).

In my understanding all 3 measurements should be more or less the same result.

(all program settings are identical)
What pattern source are you using?
What are the specific settings you use when you said "all program settings are identical"?
Seems like HCFR is using full range if it's reading higher than the other two.
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post #9626 of 11710 Old 12-01-2017, 04:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
What pattern source are you using?
What are the specific settings you use when you said "all program settings are identical"?
Seems like HCFR is using full range if it's reading higher than the other two.
The other possibility is that the video card has gamma ramps loaded and HCFR is disabling them while the other programs aren't.
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post #9627 of 11710 Old 12-01-2017, 04:16 AM
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@zoyd @Dominic Chan

Thanks for quick reply.

I used pattern generator from each program.
i'll check at the WE with external patterns like AVS 709 / burosch.

I meant settings like: display type (white LED LCD), color space (srgb), etc..

Interesting conclusion: HCFR full range vs limited of the other 2 programs --> I'll check.

tHX again, I'll come back with results later.

kr

Sven
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post #9628 of 11710 Old 12-01-2017, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I've tested the munki spectro on a plasma and it was fine, I can repeat the test on an OLED. If you haven't been able to find any negative information on it's performance then I wouldn't worry about until you do.

My recommendation for plasmas has always been a smallish window between 5-10% on a gray background of between 10-15% stimulus. And once you decide, stick to it and be happy.
Thanks Zoyd,
I would appreciate it a lot if you could have a look at the munki on an LG OLED!

Also, when profiling the colorimeter with a spectro, does it matter what window size is used, and which pattern intensity? Or is 100% window, 100% intensity better. I'm speculating if the display being clipped (not having brightness set yet) the resulting correction matrix will be off?
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post #9629 of 11710 Old 12-01-2017, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I've tested the munki spectro on a plasma and it was fine, I can repeat the test on an OLED.
Zoyd,If you don't mind,or when you have the time.

If you happen to test the munki photo on your oled,can you compare it with the i1d3 in non-refresh mode and compare which is more accurate against your reference spectro...Thanks and much appreciated for your efforts.

65 Sony A1E-Oled - Calman Home Ent/C6 HDR2000
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post #9630 of 11710 Old 12-01-2017, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a link to a beta version of 3.4.6 I still have some things I want to add before posting to sourceforge but in the meantime please play around with it and report any bugs. The HDR targets should be fixed when using the Mascior disk and I've added BT.2390 tone mapping along with some other odds and ends. Unzip the files and put the exe and dll in your HCFR folder. The csv file goes into your appdata/color folder if you want to test the 50%/50% sequence from the disk, it will show up as the last color check selection.
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