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post #9991 of 12699 Old 01-15-2018, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm working on adding the Raspberry PI as a patch generator with @frumenzio which will provide bit perfect test patterns. The Chromecast dithering technique is quite good though and suppresses rounding errors to below perceptual limits. If the Rock64 can be programmed to initiate an HDR connection with a display like what the NVidia cards do, then in theory it could be used as an HDR patch generator.
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post #9992 of 12699 Old 01-15-2018, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I'm working on adding the Raspberry PI as a patch generator with @frumenzio which will provide bit perfect test patterns. The Chromecast dithering technique is quite good though and suppresses rounding errors to below perceptual limits. If the Rock64 can be programmed to initiate an HDR connection with a display like what the NVidia cards do, then in theory it could be used as an HDR patch generator.
Ok, so my thought patterns was already picked up elsewhere. Not the first time.
Well in case that project with frumenzio goes fubar, let me know. Maybe I can pick up the threads and complete, otherwise good luck to you and hope to see the fruits of this soon.

Regarding the Rock64. Seems like a capable hardware, and relatively cheap ( about same price as a raspi). But the software support right now is scarce and lacking in many areas. So, it a matter of wait and see at the moment regarding that device.
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post #9993 of 12699 Old 01-15-2018, 09:42 AM
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frumenzio

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I'm working on adding the Raspberry PI as a patch generator with @frumenzio which will provide bit perfect test patterns. The Chromecast dithering technique is quite good though and suppresses rounding errors to below perceptual limits. If the Rock64 can be programmed to initiate an HDR connection with a display like what the NVidia cards do, then in theory it could be used as an HDR patch generator.
Very good news Zoyd! There a lot LightSpace/CalMAN users which are using frumenzio's solution for many months already and they are satisfied.
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post #9994 of 12699 Old 01-15-2018, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Very good news Zoyd! There a lot LightSpace/CalMAN users which are using frumenzio's solution for many months already and they are satisfied.
That's Right! And works like a charm on CalMAN

A really good news @zoyd thank you really much for this big improvement on HCFR. and of course a really big thanks to @frumenzio (Genius) for this PGenerator it's really user friendly..
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post #9995 of 12699 Old 01-15-2018, 12:23 PM
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Apologies if this is in the documentation (or earlier in the thread) but I'm in a rush and I just wanted to ask if the BasiCColor Discus was now supported by HCFR and if it was possible to use MadVR/MadTPG as a pattern generator with it, as that's the pattern generator I use with Calman/Lightspace.

If the Discus isn't supported, I guess the next best meter I can use for gamma experiment is my Spyder4, but I'd rather avoid that. I also have an i1pro2 but I don't trust it below 15% white when reading off the screen with my JVC PJ.

Thanks!

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post #9996 of 12699 Old 01-15-2018, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Apologies if this is in the documentation (or earlier in the thread) but I'm in a rush and I just wanted to ask if the BasiCColor Discus was now supported by HCFR and if it was possible to use MadVR/MadTPG as a pattern generator with it, as that's the pattern generator I use with Calman/Lightspace.

If the Discus isn't supported, I guess the next best meter I can use for gamma experiment is my Spyder4, but I'd rather avoid that. I also have an i1pro2 but I don't trust it below 15% white when reading off the screen with my JVC PJ.
It does support MadTPG, but not Discus AFAIK. It uses the ArgyllCMS library and the Discus is not on the list of ArgyllCMS supported instruments.
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post #9997 of 12699 Old 01-15-2018, 01:47 PM
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I have a beginner question and dont want to start a new thread..


I got a X-rite i1 display pro and use the HCFR calibration software.


To cut it short.. The calibrated 6500k colour temp very cool for me.. Before that i had a very low colour temp under 5000k that I calibrated with eye balls and grey test pattern.. For comparison I also calibrated the plasma on around 5000k and I really like this picture. I now have 6500k placed on cool and 5000k on warm setting to switch. Grey scale tracking is really good on both..


Are my eyes just not used to this colour temp? Or is it OK to watch with a lower colour temp.. I watch at night with very warm and low light in that room. Maybe that is the reason???


I have attached some pictures. 6500k and the second is 5000k.
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2013 Panasonic TX-P42STW60 PDP
ST60 Settings: Custom Mode, Contrast 60 = 100nits peak brightness aka Filmmaker Mode, Panel Brightness Medium
Gamma 2.2 or 2.4, Gamma settings: 10% -30, 20% -15, 30% -5, 80% +3
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post #9998 of 12699 Old 01-15-2018, 02:14 PM
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I don't know what your eyes are used to but seeing a correctly calibrated picture (movie) for the first time is very different for most people vs what they are "used" to seeing. It often looks duller and dimmer due to the way most displays come from the factory or what you see in a store. Certainly it is OK to watch at whatever you want. That said, if you want to watch at the reference point virtually all commercial films use then D65 is the color of white to calibrate to (i.e., D65 is spelled out in the BD and UHD standard). Of course there is artistic intent and all the rest but that starts with D65 as the base. You'll notice some sets give you several choices going all the way up to D95. If you have that or as you say you have a couple of presets that are calibrated to D65 and D50 then you can always pick what you want that matches your taste and environment knowing that you can have D65 if you want and the confidence that what you are seeing is very close (assuming all the rest of the calibration factors are dialed as well) to what was intended.

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Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post


Are my eyes just not used to this colour temp? Or is it OK to watch with a lower colour temp.. I watch at night with very warm and low light in that room. Maybe that is the reason???


I have attached some pictures. 6500k and the second is 5000k.

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post #9999 of 12699 Old 01-15-2018, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
I have a beginner question and dont want to start a new thread..

I got a X-rite i1 display pro and use the HCFR calibration software.

To cut it short.. The calibrated 6500k colour temp very cool for me.. Before that i had a very low colour temp under 5000k that I calibrated with eye balls and grey test pattern.. For comparison I also calibrated the plasma on around 5000k and I really like this picture. I now have 6500k placed on cool and 5000k on warm setting to switch. Grey scale tracking is really good on both..

Are my eyes just not used to this colour temp? Or is it OK to watch with a lower colour temp.. I watch at night with very warm and low light in that room. Maybe that is the reason???

I have attached some pictures. 6500k and the second is 5000k.
Hi, how old is your meter and what display models are you calibrating? Are you using some specific meter mode of i1Display PRO?

We use D65 (which has been created with specific mixture of RGB...see below) which has 6504K because this is the white point the movies has been mastered (BD/UHD).

Each colorspace (REC.709 for BD / REC.2020 for UHD) while they have the same xy cordinates to create the D65, it's using different mixture of colors...while they have 6504K.

You can have 6504K temperature with different RGB channels mixture.

When you are using a meter/calibration software but you check only the Color Temperature Chart for the Grayscale, while the Color Temperature Graph can be perfect, the same time the RGB Balance Chart can be off.

This is happening because just a number 6504K is not the same as when we say D65 for a specific colorspace.

When you see the RGB Balance Chart of a calibration software and you see the three (R/G/B) Channels Bars at exact 100% = 0 dE; doesn't mean that you have used equal percentage of each color channel.

The calibration software it's doing the normalizing internally according to the selected colorspace target options to give you better presentation for easier calibration.



D65 White Point for REC.709 (BD Movies) Color Space is using Red 21.27%, Green 71.52%, Blue 7.22% which gives 6504K.

REC.601 (PAL...EU DVD) D65: Red 22.20%, Green 70.67%, Blue 7.13% which gives 6504K.

REC.601 (NTSC... US DVD) D65: Red 21.24%, Green 70.11%, Blue 8.66% which gives 6504K.

REC.2020 (UltraHD Movies) D65: Red 26.27%, Green 67.80%, Blue 5.93% which gives 6504K.

All these colorspaces are using D65 as reference white point.

It happens (the most times) that the Warm1/2 of the consumer TVs (because coming not calibrated from their factory) to be closest mode when you have D65 White Point as a target, so for someone without measuring instruments, he is choosing one of those modes, these factory modes as selections are still providing uncalibrated picture.

When you have meters/software, it can happen a loe-grade instrument to report that Warm1 is closer to D65 and a more expensive reference $10.000 instrument to report that Warm2 is closer preset to D65.

Even having only your White Point calibrated perfectly, still doesn't mean that your picture will be good, you can still have sunburned skintones and vivid colors.

If your White looks red-ish tint then it will be a meter issue, it will be improved to look 'more neutral white' if you create a meter profiling table using a spectrophotometer or a higher grade spectroradiometer.
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post #10000 of 12699 Old 01-15-2018, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
Are my eyes just not used to this colour temp? Or is it OK to watch with a lower colour temp.. I watch at night with very warm and low light in that room. Maybe that is the reason???
Ideally the background illumination should also be D65. If you have very warm room light, that indeed will make your calibrated D65 look cool in comparison.

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post #10001 of 12699 Old 01-15-2018, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce2019 View Post
To cut it short.. The calibrated 6500k colour temp very cool for me.. Before that i had a very low colour temp under 5000k that I calibrated with eye balls and grey test pattern.. For comparison I also calibrated the plasma on around 5000k and I really like this picture. I now have 6500k placed on cool and 5000k on warm setting to switch. Grey scale tracking is really good on both..
We adapt to different white points very well, so of all the ways that you could deviate from technically perfect Video calibration, this is the least significant. It is important that other sources of light in your viewing environment be sympathetic to the white point of your display though, since differences can lead to partial adaptation, leading you to see your display as not truly neutral. If you have little other lighting, then it won't matter, but if you have an amount of warm-white lighting (3000K) at night, or have daylight peeking in (D50), you may well find that D50 looks a lot better than D65. You may loose a little brightness, since TV's are often made on the assumption that they will be set to about D65.

Note that the calibration targets need to be adapted from D65 to D50 using a good Chromatic Adaptation matrix, i.e. Bradford matrix. Good calibration & profiling software will do this by default. Bad software may simply scale the XYZ values.

[ In graphic arts, D50 is the standard, and many people doing color critical work will set their displays to D50 to match their printed output/viewing booths. For my computer monitor for instance, I find that D55 is about right for my viewing environment. ]
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post #10002 of 12699 Old 01-16-2018, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
If the Discus isn't supported, I guess the next best meter I can use for gamma experiment is my Spyder4, but I'd rather avoid that. I also have an i1pro2 but I don't trust it below 15% white when reading off the screen with my JVC PJ.
Thanks!
You can use your i1Pro2, which is a very fine instrument used by many professional calibrators for this exact purpose, to create a correction matrix for your spider. That will correct the spider's readings to match the i1pro2 and you can then use the spider for the gamma calibrations. And well, for all calibration on that particular display. A better colorimeter than the spider is the i1 Display Pro, in case you would want to upgrade to top notch gear that is also supported by HCFR.

Here is a guide to how to create a correction matrix. Should be linked from the first page of the forum, but I cannot find it there... @zoyd ?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post26648713
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post #10003 of 12699 Old 01-16-2018, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
You can use your i1Pro2, which is a very fine instrument used by many professional calibrators for this exact purpose, to create a correction matrix for your spider. That will correct the spider's readings to match the i1pro2 and you can then use the spider for the gamma calibrations. And well, for all calibration on that particular display. A better colorimeter than the spider is the i1 Display Pro, in case you would want to upgrade to top notch gear that is also supported by HCFR.

Here is a guide to how to create a correction matrix. Should be linked from the first page of the forum, but I cannot find it there... @zoyd ?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post26648713
Thanks, I profile the Discus to the i1pro2 with Calman and Lightspace all the time. What I meant was I'd rather use the Discus than the Spyder 4, because I just wanted to quickly check something with HCFR and wanted to minimize the time needed to do so. I also used to profile my Chroma5 to my i1pro when I used HCFR more often. Running a profile for a single test isn't very time efficient though.

The Discus, by the way, is far better than the i1d3 (can read black fairly reliably and reads up to 2500nits for HDR, laser to aim, glass filters that don't drift, built like a tank). Combined with the i1pro2, it's one of the best semi-pro solutions around bar moving up to pro reference gear such as Klein K10A/Jeti which are faster and a bit more accurate. It's a shame the Discus is still not supported by Argyll, I requested it years ago but I guess not many people know about it/use it.

In any case, I don't need to do this check anymore so we can close the subject.
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post #10004 of 12699 Old 01-16-2018, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
The Discus, by the way, is far better than the i1d3 (can read black fairly reliably and reads up to 2500nits for HDR, laser to aim, glass filters that don't drift, built like a tank). Combined with the i1pro2, it's one of the best semi-pro solutions around bar moving up to pro reference gear such as Klein K10A/Jeti which are faster and a bit more accurate. It's a shame the Discus is still not supported by Argyll, I requested it years ago but I guess not many people know about it/use it.
You are probably right about the Discus being better, even if not by much compared to the i1d3 (the OEM, 2017 does 2.000 nits). But weighing in price does put the i1d3 in favour. But according to this post it seems like Graeme is willing to put in the work, if someone would donate a Discus to him:
https://www.freelists.org/post/argyl...DISCUS-meter,1
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post #10005 of 12699 Old 01-16-2018, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
You are probably right about the Discus being better, even if not by much compared to the i1d3 (the OEM, 2017 does 2.000 nits). But weighing in price does put the i1d3 in favour. But according to this post it seems like Graeme is willing to put in the work, if someone would donate a Discus to him:
https://www.freelists.org/post/argyl...DISCUS-meter,1
The Discus is not only better in the top end (2500nits vs 2000nits), it's far better in the low end. Try measuring black with an i1d3 facing the screen with a JVC projector and the iris fully closed. It's simply not usable below 5% white, at least if you want to take the screen into account.

Provided you take some precautions, the Discus can measure on/off fairly reliably, even with the DI on (I checked measurements with my Minolta T10), and can be used for a BT1886 calibration with a display with very low black levels. That's something the i1d3 is unable to do. Again, the laser aiming diode is a very useful feature that I wouldn't live without now (select a 2% pattern, aim diode at the centre, revert to pattern size you use, done with meter positioning).

Of course it's more expensive than the i1d3, but it's far less expensive than a Klein K10A, which is overkill for enthusiasts (I'd rather put that kind of money in a better display).

My Discus cost me £250 second hand, so the cost was not an issue to me. Best colorimeter I ever owned. I mine was to fail, I would buy one at full price without any hesitation. I had an i1d2, a Chroma 5 Pro, and tried 3 different i1d3 before sending them back due to the low light issue (that was before HDR) and getting a Discus. Profiled to the i1pro2, it completely cured my lust for a Klein K10A/Jeti combo.

Anyway, this is becoming off topic, let's hope that Graeme will get his hands on one and support it at some point.
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post #10006 of 12699 Old 01-16-2018, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
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Here is a guide to how to create a correction matrix. Should be linked from the first page of the forum, but I cannot find it there...
It's right there, last item under Useful Links:
How to: Use HCFR to profile your colorimiter

We had the same discussion before:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post55124822

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Yes I know . I didn't find it originally, and I didn't find it for Manni01. Searched for all the keywords I could think of, e.g correction and matrix. "Profile" didn't occur to me (albeit correct term). "Correction and matrix" are the words that are used in the application, which put me off twice now.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barsk View Post
Yes I know . I didn't find it originally, and I didn't find it for Manni01. Searched for all the keywords I could think of, e.g correction and matrix. "Profile" didn't occur to me (albeit correct term). "Correction and matrix" are the words that are used in the application, which put me off twice now.
Just add “colorimeter” to the keyword search

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post #10009 of 12699 Old 01-16-2018, 02:42 PM
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Figuring out panel type

I have LeEco UMAX85. I'm not sure, but the best guess on the owner's thread for this model is that this is the actual panel used in it: http://www.panelook.com/V850DK1-QS1%...iew_26685.html

Based on this limited info what would be my best bet as far as what panel type to use in the HCFR software?

Thanks!
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post #10010 of 12699 Old 01-16-2018, 02:43 PM
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Where do I get the driver for I1 Display pro? I plugged it in and nothing happens. Using windows 10
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post #10011 of 12699 Old 01-16-2018, 03:39 PM
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@artistdraw

Doesn't need a driver. Plug it in and restart HCFR.

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Vizio M55-C2 (Ex) | Calibration + Settings
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post #10012 of 12699 Old 01-16-2018, 08:13 PM
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@artistdraw

Doesn't need a driver. Plug it in and restart HCFR.
Technically it will use the built in MSWindows system HID driver...
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post #10013 of 12699 Old 01-17-2018, 10:16 AM
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We adapt to different white points very well, so of all the ways that you could deviate from technically perfect Video calibration, this is the least significant. It is important that other sources of light in your viewing environment be sympathetic to the white point of your display though, since differences can lead to partial adaptation, leading you to see your display as not truly neutral. If you have little other lighting, then it won't matter, but if you have an amount of warm-white lighting (3000K) at night, or have daylight peeking in (D50), you may well find that D50 looks a lot better than D65. You may loose a little brightness, since TV's are often made on the assumption that they will be set to about D65.

Note that the calibration targets need to be adapted from D65 to D50 using a good Chromatic Adaptation matrix, i.e. Bradford matrix. Good calibration & profiling software will do this by default. Bad software may simply scale the XYZ values.

[ In graphic arts, D50 is the standard, and many people doing color critical work will set their displays to D50 to match their printed output/viewing booths. For my computer monitor for instance, I find that D55 is about right for my viewing environment. ]

I have now 6500k, 5500k and 5000k calibrated on my Plasma.. via service menu placed on cool, normal and warm..


And I am just blown away by the 5500k setting. Now in direct comparison 5000k was too warm and 6500k is great for day time viewing.. so I set 5500k to warm (so I have this colour temp on true cinema with is the internal warm setting and I can not change it) and on cinema I have 5500k and 6500k to switch.


Thank you for your reply.

2013 Panasonic TX-P42X60E PDP
2013 Panasonic TX-P42STW60 PDP
ST60 Settings: Custom Mode, Contrast 60 = 100nits peak brightness aka Filmmaker Mode, Panel Brightness Medium
Gamma 2.2 or 2.4, Gamma settings: 10% -30, 20% -15, 30% -5, 80% +3
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post #10014 of 12699 Old 01-17-2018, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
@artistdraw

Doesn't need a driver. Plug it in and restart HCFR.
Nothing happens. Is there a menu that I have to go in to start it?
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post #10015 of 12699 Old 01-17-2018, 02:54 PM
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Nothing happens. Is there a menu that I have to go in to start it?
If it's working you should see a new device listed in the Windows Device Manager, under Human Interface Devices / USB Input Device. If you then restart HCFR and do a File/New, you should see it listed, in addition to Simulated Sensor.

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Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
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post #10016 of 12699 Old 01-18-2018, 11:18 AM
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Dominic-- Thanks for your suggestion. I finally got around to this again and retooled diffuse white down to your suggested 20 - 25 range using 25 with 95 nit peak at both 1,000 and 4,000. For 1,000 I rolled off the high end just a little more than what HCFR generated.. Now all of the Masciola demo clips look pretty good and much better balanced than with the internal curves. What I need to do is a measurement run to determine what the pj's stock application/internal curves are and then a compare. Is there some way in HCFR to do a run in a window and then another run in a different window whereby you can then look at the results for comparison purposes at the same time?

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Here are some pictures comparing UHD Blu-Ray HDR (Custom 2: 20 nits diffuse white, 100 nits peak, 1000 nits master) with the corresponding SDR Blu-Ray. At least for this movie, even 20 nits is too bright relative to SDR.

Note that the camera was in manual exposure mode so the difference in picture brightness reflects the projector output.
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post #10017 of 12699 Old 01-18-2018, 11:27 AM
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Is there some way in HCFR to do a run in a window and then another run in a different window whereby you can then look at the results for comparison purposes at the same time?
That feature has been around for as long as I remember. Just check the Reference checkbox (lower right corner) in one window, and you can compare any other sets of measurements against it.

JVC DLA-X550R; Denon AVR-X3400H; HD Fury Linker / Vertex 2; ATV4K; Sony UBP-X700
JVC Curves; Optimizing HDR;
Creating a basic HDR curve using Arve’s Tool;
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-18-2018 at 11:30 AM.
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post #10018 of 12699 Old 01-18-2018, 12:42 PM
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Thanks..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That feature has been around for as long as I remember. Just check the Reference checkbox (lower right corner) in one window, and you can compare any other sets of measurements against it.
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post #10019 of 12699 Old 01-18-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by The Coolest View Post
@artistdraw

Doesn't need a driver. Plug it in and restart HCFR.
I got it to appear now. SO how do I use this with my software on my projector? I am using Ryan Masciola UHD HDR patterns
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post #10020 of 12699 Old 01-19-2018, 02:16 PM
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I can't seem to find one video on HCFR software. I have everything working now. I want to set up my projector (UHD60 4k) I have connected toXbox one X the software is on my iMac running windows 10. So how am I gonna get the software to adjust the projector when its not even connected to it?
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