HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 341 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10201 of 11714 Old 02-12-2018, 03:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
That's a bug.
On closer inspection I think it's working properly, expand the scale or put in a large black level to see it.
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post #10202 of 11714 Old 02-12-2018, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
On closer inspection I think it's working properly, expand the scale or put in a large black level to see it.
It may be working, but is not very informative IMHO. For example, a delta-L of 0.02 nits makes a huge difference visually at 5% input, and yet is literally invisible on the graph. Conversely, the graph visually shows a large error in the mid range, but that's not significant in real life. Changing the Y-axis to logarithmic will address both of these issues.

In comparison, the “RGB graph with gamma” provides the equivalent information in a more informative presentation (although greyscale imbalance can be detracting when focusing on delta-L).
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post #10203 of 11714 Old 02-12-2018, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Would it be useful to add a logrithmic switch to all luminance and delta luminance plots? What about RGB:NB and RGB:NW combo plots? Any other combo suggestions?
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post #10204 of 11714 Old 02-12-2018, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Would it be useful to add a logrithmic switch to all luminance and delta luminance plots?
I haven't actually tried it, but if there's a logarithmic luminance plot I may not even both with the delta luminance plot.

Quote:
What about RGB:NB and RGB:NW combo plots? Any other combo suggestions?
I personally may prefer to have the Info window configurable (e.g., select the plots of my choice), although the UI may be more cluttered.
I haven't found the NW plot in its current form very useful for HDR, for the simple reason that the target itself is supposed to be clipped, and what shows up with such small increments is mostly measurement noise. This unlike SDR where clipping is bad.
I'm adjusting NB based on visual patterns more than the NW plot. The existing Gradients and Ramps patterns may need to be updated for HDR.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-12-2018 at 08:28 AM.
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post #10205 of 11714 Old 02-14-2018, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Version 3.5.1 is available via web update or at the previously posted dropbox link, will be uploaded to sourceforge when it's back online.

Updates:
  • Added log(Y) option to luminance graphs.
  • Added multiplot display to info page.
  • Added configurable multiplot option to info page.
  • Save/Restore up to 3 open graph tabs.
  • Final rPi support including test pattern display.
  • Auto maximize workpage on start.
  • Gamma graph now displays delta Luminance in HDR mode.
  • Added near black and near white tuning parameters to BT.2390 EOTF.
  • Improved webupdate stability and added version # display.
  • Bunch of bug fixes.
  • Improved speed of CIE display.

Notes on usage:

BT.2390 parameters
NB Slope: default is 1
Will change the slope of the near black target EOTF when minimum luminance is > 0. Values between 1-4 will lower the black lift and values between 0.1 and 1 will raise it. Suggested value is 2.

NW Slope: default is 0
Will change the slope of the near white target EOTF. There are two parameters for this option, the strength -4.5 - 4.5 with default value of 0 (off) and the % cut-in which drives where in the range between the BT.2390 knee and mastering peak the curve is tapered. Negative values steepen the curve and will provide a harder clip with flat landing (compression) while positive values soften clipping with a steeper slope near the mastering luminance.

Auto fill information area selection
This area will automatically populate the first three open graph tabs in the order they were opened. These tabs will also be automatically saved and restored.

rPi Image display
The entire set of test images has been loaded into the rPi iso that @frumenzio will be publishing. You access the images as you would normally, requires a minimum of 192M GPU memory setting on the rPi.

Last edited by zoyd; 02-14-2018 at 05:17 AM.
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post #10206 of 11714 Old 02-14-2018, 07:44 AM
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Thanks for the new update.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Version 3.5.1 is available via web update or at the previously posted dropbox link, will be uploaded to sourceforge when it's back online.

Updates:
  • Added multiplot display to info page.
  • Added configurable multiplot option to info page.
Are these two the same? I can't seem to find any configuration options.
For people who have been running the various versions of 3.5.0.3, they need to delete the previous ini file, otherwise many of the graphs do not display properly.

It turned out that the Log display is not as useful as I expected (sorry!). The RGB graph with gamma still shows the low end behaviour more clearly (see attached sample Info_Page.png where Log luminance does not visually show the errors, unlike RGB graph).

Some additional issues/requests:
- Identify the various "tabs" in the Info windows (in background?)
- It would be useful to have a "Reset HDR parameters"
- (Old bug) When using Absolute Y, selecting scale of 0-100% is interpreted incorrectly as "0-100 nits" rather than "show entire range"
- Auto-adjust needs further refinement - see attached screen shot AutoScale.png for issues in both the upper portion and lower portion
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-14-2018 at 07:49 AM.
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post #10207 of 11714 Old 02-14-2018, 01:14 PM
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I will be buying my first rPI just for the purpose of having a pattern generator for HCFR. Anything I have to be aware of besides the GPU memory? Specific rPI hardware version needed? Thanks!

Last edited by sidamos; 02-14-2018 at 01:24 PM.
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post #10208 of 11714 Old 02-14-2018, 02:33 PM
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I have tested the generator software on a Raspberry Pi 3 Model B;once the ISO is flashed to sd card, it will be necessary to modify the parameter of the allocated memory gpu if you want to use the HCFR Target/Images/Patterns Function

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post #10209 of 11714 Old 02-14-2018, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Thanks for the new update.


Are these two the same? I can't seem to find any configuration options.
No, there are the static predefined multiplots and then the auto plot page. Which is configurable to the extent that you can define a mixture of 1,2, or 3 of the available graph tabs to appear here.
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post #10210 of 11714 Old 02-14-2018, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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post #10211 of 11714 Old 02-14-2018, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frumenzio View Post
I have tested the generator software on a Raspberry Pi 3 Model B;once the ISO is flashed to sd card, it will be necessary to modify the parameter of the allocated memory gpu if you want to use the HCFR Target/Images/Patterns Function
Cool, thanks! Sounds exciting. :-)

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post #10212 of 11714 Old 02-14-2018, 10:52 PM
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As a newbie, I was disappointed to learn that the Sypder5Pro I just bought couldn't calibrate my TV with it's current software. Then I heard about HCFR. I was excited to see that the source code for the Mac version was going to be worked on as I read in the beginning of this thread. But, I have not been able to find the Mac version. So, did a Mac version ever get produced?
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post #10213 of 11714 Old 02-15-2018, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcrandon View Post
As a newbie, I was disappointed to learn that the Sypder5Pro I just bought couldn't calibrate my TV with it's current software. Then I heard about HCFR. I was excited to see that the source code for the Mac version was going to be worked on as I read in the beginning of this thread. But, I have not been able to find the Mac version. So, did a Mac version ever get produced?
Run it in a VM, like Parallels, that what I do and works v well.

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post #10214 of 11714 Old 02-15-2018, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm doing a little reorganizing of the main page display and need suggestions on what might be useful info to place in the highlighted areas.
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post #10215 of 11714 Old 02-15-2018, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I'm doing a little reorganizing of the main page display and need suggestions on what might be useful info to place in the highlighted areas.
Some possibilities:
  • Remove the row underneath it and transfer the "supplementary description" here.
  • Remove the main description (e.g., "Gray Scale") as it is already shown in the pull-down window next to it.
  • Move the "Editable Window" checkbox and the up/down scroll buttons to the Go and Delete area.
  • Add info such as colour space, HDR etc.
  • Add a "quick access" button for "References".
  • Remove the duplicated Reference checkbox.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-15-2018 at 01:15 PM.
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post #10216 of 11714 Old 02-15-2018, 02:09 PM
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With

- auto scaling graph resolution
- no fixed aspect ratio on the graphs
- a different aspect ratio, depending on what view you choose to look at a graph
- and a presentation that will populate graphs based on recent use (might have that wrong, actually)

- this will become a very "interesting" environment for new users.

Consider this the usual "I liked the previous design better" posting.



That said - I looked at the image above and was struck by two things.

1. I see hardly any benefit I would get from looking at the datafields and those three graphs at once. Last used doesnt mean "want to see it in another view as well".

2. Remembering the days when I first learned to use HCFR I know how important multiple measurements and the representations they had in a graph were for me to getting a feel for results. Changing Aspect ratio and scale, just depending on results and view - would have made that almost impossible.

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post #10217 of 11714 Old 02-15-2018, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
With

- auto scaling graph resolution
- no fixed aspect ratio on the graphs
- a different aspect ratio, depending on what view you choose to look at a graph
- and a presentation that will populate graphs based on recent use (might have that wrong, actually)

- this will become a very "interesting" environment for new users.

Consider this the usual "I liked the previous design better" posting.
Not sure why you feel that way. All the graphs are still available in standalone tabs, and can have fixed scale if you prefer them over auto scale.
As for aspect ratio, the view within the Info Window always had a more "squatty" aspect ratio (short and wide) compared with their standalone counterparts. The new view actually has a closer aspect ratio to the standalone views.
Having said that, the new layout does look more busy and it may be desirable to be able to get a simpler view for new users.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-15-2018 at 05:00 PM.
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post #10218 of 11714 Old 02-15-2018, 07:05 PM
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@zyod - I was wondering how hard it would be to add a color space conversion matrix to the program. In other words, allowing for the new coordinates to remap an existing color space if a person has matrix numbers to give for the remapping, going slightly further than just a custom color space. Just a question.

Also, when the color space is custom, you cannot select the HDR or 10-bit color now. Was wondering if that was intentional?
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post #10219 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajc9988 View Post
@zyod - I was wondering how hard it would be to add a color space conversion matrix to the program. In other words, allowing for the new coordinates to remap an existing color space if a person has matrix numbers to give for the remapping, going slightly further than just a custom color space. Just a question.

Also, when the color space is custom, you cannot select the HDR or 10-bit color now. Was wondering if that was intentional?
Indeed you have already that: Run a new without a correction file. Then go to Advanced => Manual Edit XYZ and in Sensor Matrix you can enter the values you like and then save them.
A little odd that if you have loaded a correction file, the only way to see what you have in (and possibly editing), is to to go through Measures => Sensor => Configure

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post #10220 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 03:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajc9988 View Post
- I was wondering how hard it would be to add a color space conversion matrix to the program. In other words, allowing for the new coordinates to remap an existing color space if a person has matrix numbers to give for the remapping, going slightly further than just a custom color space. Just a question.
Fairly straightforward but why would you need this vs. the manual option? Presumably you have the coordinates already to calculate the matrix.

Quote:
Also, when the color space is custom, you cannot select the HDR or 10-bit color now. Was wondering if that was intentional?
I have not verified yet that this works for HDR so it's greyed out. Also, the 10-bit option has nothing to do with the color space, it's enabled when you are using the manual generator so that you can choose to calculate the gray scale targets in 10 rather than 8 bits to match @mascior 's test disk.
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post #10221 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by viperlogic View Post
Run it in a VM, like Parallels, that what I do and works v well.
Thanks. Just bought my copy of Windows 10 and will do that.

Any suggestion on what DVD would be best to use? (a combination of easiest to use, but comprehensive enough not to leave anything out). This would be for using the Sypder5, for a newbie to this, but I've been an audio and videophile my whole life.

If it means anything, I'm color deficient, so I can't trust myself with any use of my own eyes to calibrate. And, BTW, so are another 8% of everybody trying this as well! lol
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post #10222 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcrandon View Post
Any suggestion on what DVD would be best to use? (a combination of easiest to use, but comprehensive enough not to leave anything out). This would be for using the Sypder5, for a newbie to this, but I've been an audio and videophile my whole life.
I would just start with the AVS HD which you can download and burn on to DVD or Bluray:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...libration.html
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post #10223 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Some possibilities:
  • Remove the row underneath it and transfer the "supplementary description" here.
  • Remove the main description (e.g., "Gray Scale") as it is already shown in the pull-down window next to it.
  • Move the "Editable Window" checkbox and the up/down scroll buttons to the Go and Delete area.
  • Add info such as colour space, HDR etc.
  • Add a "quick access" button for "References".
  • Remove the duplicated Reference checkbox.
thanks for the suggestions. Here is what I currently have as the layout. The references info has been moved to the top line and dE info left in the view title bar. Added references button - moved edit button and added titles to graphs. Still need suggestions for the free space between RGB levels and target on left side.
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post #10224 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Still need suggestions for the free space between RGB levels and target on left side.
You can have two sets of RGB levels, with and without gamma.
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post #10225 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
thanks for the suggestions. Here is what I currently have as the layout. The references info has been moved to the top line and dE info left in the view title bar. Added references button - moved edit button and added titles to graphs. Still need suggestions for the free space between RGB levels and target on left side.
Have there ever been any discussions about creating more of a workflow? Sort of like how Calman walks through the steps and also allows people to share their workflow configurations. I personally don't need this but it would probably have been helpful when I was first learning. The other benefit is that it would allow users to set up the charts and tables to their preference for each step of the calibration process. For those who don't want this there could just be a "HCFR Classic" setting.
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post #10226 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You can have two sets of RGB levels, with and without gamma.
..or would a second set of HSV bars be more useful?
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post #10227 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhn View Post
Have there ever been any discussions about creating more of a workflow? Sort of like how Calman walks through the steps and also allows people to share their workflow configurations. I personally don't need this but it would probably have been helpful when I was first learning. The other benefit is that it would allow users to set up the charts and tables to their preference for each step of the calibration process. For those who don't want this there could just be a "HCFR Classic" setting.


Yes this has been brought up before but it is not something I am interested in.


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post #10228 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
..or would a second set of HSV bars be more useful?
Depending on whether adjusting grey scale or CMS.
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post #10229 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Fairly straightforward but why would you need this vs. the manual option? Presumably you have the coordinates already to calculate the matrix.
So, my thought was having a little sub-run to apply the matrix to saturation points as well as I do not know how those are calculated for custom color spaces. But I am a relative noob compared to the others making better suggestions, so please bear with me in the event I misstate something or do not know something. And, yes, both matrix and coordinates are had.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
I have not verified yet that this works for HDR so it's greyed out. Also, the 10-bit option has nothing to do with the color space, it's enabled when you are using the manual generator so that you can choose to calculate the gray scale targets in 10 rather than 8 bits to match @mascior 's test disk.
I apologize for the insinuation of it having to do with the color space, what I meant is that the newer standards for calibrating the HDR color spaces are greyed out, which you have answered. I was meaning that there are two separate issues, one with the selection of the SMPTE 2084, which you just gave the explanation, and the other being for the bitdepth. I use R. Masciola's disc in my HDR calibrations currently. I use Ted's and Masciola's works, along with a couple others, when doing rec.709. Eventually will get a pattern generator, but will wait until the HDR field settles and more development happens

But, as you said, you are currently working on verifying accuracy, etc. So I do apologize if being an inconvenience. Did not know if that was a bug or not.
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post #10230 of 11714 Old 02-16-2018, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Not sure why you feel that way. All the graphs are still available in standalone tabs, and can have fixed scale if you prefer them over auto scale.
As for aspect ratio, the view within the Info Window always had a more "squatty" aspect ratio (short and wide) compared with their standalone counterparts. The new view actually has a closer aspect ratio to the standalone views.
Having said that, the new layout does look more busy and it may be desirable to be able to get a simpler view for new users.
I've tried to separate feels from my first impression comments, since "feels" were more like - "OMG, what happened here.. " - but thats usually to be expected with any design change..

That auto scale can be disabled in options is good to know/needed/expected - I used it in combination with the aspect ratio argument, to form a rational that the "readability" of graphs in general "suffered".

Aspect ratio on the stand alone screens could always be adjusted by playing with Window size (which then could be saved), so never was too much of an inherent issue - the point I am making being, that you now have two different representations of a graph in one project, with different aspect ratios, and most likely auto scaling - which might become a hard thing for new users to wrap their heads around.

Even just sharing and quickly analysing calibration results, has all of a sudden become a little harder.. (But thats the thing with auto scale, there are pros and cons.)

That aspect ratio is more "true to the cie chart" in the "tile view", at least seems not to be the case in the excample Zoyd shared, where he fullscreened a project in data view.

I also share the general notion, that the data view maybe looks a little busy with three graphs added to it, that dont necessarily need to be seen "at once" for any particular reason (I often have a gamma graph open in addition to the data view, or the CIE chart in addition to the data view - but those two in addition to the greyscale/dE graph are just signal overload).

If users found it hard to transition from the dataview to graphs - there has to be a better way (easier said than implemented.. ) than to all of a sudden play "all the charts on one screen"...

I might also be aesthetically driven in my criticism, because there is only so many ways I can look at a deformed CIE diagram, and say nothing (thumbs up! ) - especially when it comes in poststamp size...

I tried to give rationalisations for my thoughts though.

Last edited by harlekin; 02-16-2018 at 01:35 PM.
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