HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 358 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10711 of 11804 Old 05-22-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
If you’re remeasuring, might as well include the Near Black.
Is that the near black gray scale?
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post #10712 of 11804 Old 05-22-2018, 01:12 PM
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Here's a 20 point gray scale with near black scale as well.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-BD...ew?usp=sharing
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post #10713 of 11804 Old 05-22-2018, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyClown View Post
Here's a 20 point gray scale with near black scale as well.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-BD...ew?usp=sharing
The measurements confirm the black crush. The 1% level is at the same as black (0.033 nits). Even 5% is at <70% of the target value.
EDIT: Assuming you have the i1D3, it can read down to 0.003 nits. Your black level is more than 10 times higher so the readings would not have been limited by the meter.
- http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_EyeOneDisplay3.shtm

The readings are consistent with your visual observation. Try increasing the Brightness slightly to bring up the near black values, hopefully without lifting the black.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 05-22-2018 at 07:18 PM.
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post #10714 of 11804 Old 05-22-2018, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The measurements confirm the black crush. The 1% level is at the same as black (0.033 nits). Even 5% is at <70% of the target value.

Try increasing the Brightness slightly to bring up those values, hopefully without lifting the black.
Not necessarily. If the colorimeter reading for 1% is lower than it can accurately get a reading, then the returned value will not be accurate.
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post #10715 of 11804 Old 05-22-2018, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
EDIT: Assuming you have the i1D3, it can read down to 0.003 nits, so your reading would not have been limited by the meter.
Actually, varying from unit to unit, the i1D3 can report readings well below 0.003 nits, however it is only rated to be accurate to luma 0.1 nits. The accuracy below that will vary from unit to unit. The only way to know for sure how accurate the meter is would be through a reference comparison

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post #10716 of 11804 Old 05-23-2018, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by CraftyClown View Post
Here's a 20 point gray scale with near black scale as well.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-BD...ew?usp=sharing
Any updates on the calibration?

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 05-23-2018 at 11:05 AM.
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post #10717 of 11804 Old 05-23-2018, 12:17 PM
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I've just got in from work and will probably do another calibration tonight before I go to bed. I have to pick my moment as my fiance is getting increasingly annoyed by my constant tinkering

You were in fact correct Dom that it was a brightness issue. I was being an idiot and incorrectly using the built in white and black generators. Instead of adjusting until I could just see the 1% bar I adjusted until I could just see the 2% bar which was in turn crushing at both ends. I'm pretty sure with this error out of the way I should now be on my way to a decent calibration, however I won't count my chickens until they've hatched.

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post #10718 of 11804 Old 05-23-2018, 12:51 PM
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Tried a dab at a calibration of my Epson 6040 and I'm pleased with the results thanks to the excellent guides written by members and helpful tips from other users. Round of applause to everyone. But there's a few things in the back of my mind that I know aren't perfect and are niggling me. I measured gamma at Bt 1886, managed to get an average of 2.10 but it drops to 2.027 at 60%. How big of an issue is this ? (White decor room with a 2.1 grain grey screen). On the PJ there's a custom gamma setting with 9 points. How, can or even should I use this to get better results ? I might just be looking for things to fiddle with when I don't need to and just sit back and enjoy the picture! Many thanks.
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post #10719 of 11804 Old 05-23-2018, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JumpDontThink View Post
Tried a dab at a calibration of my Epson 6040 and I'm pleased with the results thanks to the excellent guides written by members and helpful tips from other users. Round of applause to everyone. But there's a few things in the back of my mind that I know aren't perfect and are niggling me. I measured gamma at Bt 1886, managed to get an average of 2.10 but it drops to 2.027 at 60%. How big of an issue is this ? (White decor room with a 2.1 grain grey screen). On the PJ there's a custom gamma setting with 9 points. How, can or even should I use this to get better results ? I might just be looking for things to fiddle with when I don't need to and just sit back and enjoy the picture! Many thanks.
Multi-point gamma adjustment is described in the HCFR tutorial (see 1st post for link).
There were also discussions in the Epson 5040ub thread on how to adjust the gamma using the Epson controls, e.g.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-dig...l#post55105566
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post #10720 of 11804 Old 05-23-2018, 02:41 PM
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Many thanks Dominic! One step in the right direction at a time!
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post #10721 of 11804 Old 05-24-2018, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Any updates on the calibration?
Okay, so here's the latest run...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-Fz...ew?usp=sharing

I can get nearly all of my 10 point grayscale down to around 0.1 nits, but my near blacks are still only around 70% of what they should be, no mater how much pushing and pulling back and forth I do.

Am I fighting an impossible battle here and and what point are these differences imperceptible?

I'm also curious about a couple of the internal patterns in HCFR. How much of the shadow clipping, highlight clipping and near black patterns should I be able to see once properly calibrated?
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post #10722 of 11804 Old 05-24-2018, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by CraftyClown View Post
I can get nearly all of my 10 point grayscale down to around 0.1 nits, but my near blacks are still only around 70% of what they should be, no mater how much pushing and pulling back and forth I do.
Am I fighting an impossible battle here and and what point are these differences imperceptible?
This is definitely better than the previous result.
Actually, your near black levels are already higher than a Gamma 2.2 curve even with black compensation. The 70% is relative to BT1886.
Since you don't have a control point at 5%, this is probably as close as you can get.

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I'm also curious about a couple of the internal patterns in HCFR. How much of the shadow clipping, highlight clipping and near black patterns should I be able to see once properly calibrated?
The 1% pattern should be barely visible if you stand close to the TV, but that requires a totally black viewing environment.

Looks like you didn't measure the Near White, but that's mostly to ensure that you are not clipping prematurely (which may also lead to discoloration of the highlights). As long as they follow the target curve, you may or may not be able to see each step individually.
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post #10723 of 11804 Old 05-24-2018, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
This is definitely better than the previous result.
Actually, your near black levels are already higher than a Gamma 2.2 curve even with black compensation. The 70% is relative to BT1886.
Since you don't have a control point at 5%, this is probably as close as you can get.
I am trying to calibrate to BT1886. Are you saying that's quite possibly as close as I'll get with 10 point controls?


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The 1% pattern should be barely visible if you stand close to the TV, but that requires a totally black viewing environment.
Are you referring to all three of those patterns? (shadow clipping, highlight clipping and near black)

With shadow clipping I can just about see the 1 column if I stand right next to the screen.
With highlight clipping I can see up to about 253 on blue and then up to 255 on some of the other colours. Does that mean my highlights are very slightly clipped?
With Near black I can see all the squares except for maybe the four in the very top left corner.

Are these kind of differences usually considered imperceptible? Or do I still have some tweaking to do?
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post #10724 of 11804 Old 05-24-2018, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by CraftyClown View Post
I am trying to calibrate to BT1886. Are you saying that's quite possibly as close as I'll get with 10 point controls?
To adjust near black you need a control at 5%. Typically with 10 point controls you don't have that.

Quote:
Are you referring to all three of those patterns? (shadow clipping, highlight clipping and near black)

With shadow clipping I can just about see the 1 column if I stand right next to the screen.
With highlight clipping I can see up to about 253 on blue and then up to 255 on some of the other colours. Does that mean my highlights are very slightly clipped?
With Near black I can see all the squares except for maybe the four in the very top left corner.

Are these kind of differences usually considered imperceptible? Or do I still have some tweaking to do?
I haven't seen your Near White measurements, so can't comment on that.
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post #10725 of 11804 Old 05-24-2018, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
To adjust near black you need a control at 5%. Typically with 10 point controls you don't have that.



I haven't seen your Near White measurements, so can't comment on that.
Thanks Dom. I've done another run with near white measurements. As far as I can tell they look ok.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-Ht...ew?usp=sharing

I also tried to do some work on my primaries and secondaries. I thought I was making headway until I saw what green now looks like on my display!

I clearly still have a lot to learn
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post #10726 of 11804 Old 05-24-2018, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by CraftyClown View Post
Thanks Dom. I've done another run with near white measurements. As far as I can tell they look ok.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-Ht...ew?usp=sharing

I also tried to do some work on my primaries and secondaries. I thought I was making headway until I saw what green now looks like on my display!

I clearly still have a lot to learn
There is no sign of Blue clipping right up to 255.



For Primaries and Secondaries you need to run the Colour Saturation sweeps. Do not just focus on the boundary point. Using 75% saturation as the starting point would help, in most cases.
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post #10727 of 11804 Old 05-24-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
There is no sign of Blue clipping right up to 255.



For Primaries and Secondaries you need to run the Colour Saturation sweeps. Do not just focus on the boundary point. Using 75% saturation as the starting point would help, in most cases.
Thanks Dominic, so essentially it looks like I may be pretty close to getting the best I can with this display grayscale wise?

I will do colour saturation sweeps for my primaries and secondaries next then.

I must confess I am still a little confused about manipulating colour. Am I right in thinking that for each colour I adjust the brightness controls to match the expected Y and the saturation and hue controls to match the expected x and y. Is that correct? How do I work out what the correct x, y and Y targets for my primaries and secondaries are?
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post #10728 of 11804 Old 05-24-2018, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by CraftyClown View Post
I must confess I am still a little confused about manipulating colour. Am I right in thinking that for each colour I adjust the brightness controls to match the expected Y and the saturation and hue controls to match the expected x and y. Is that correct?
Yes.

Quote:
How do I work out what the correct x, y and Y targets for my primaries and secondaries are?
The Y target is shown in the "grid", as well as the measured Y.

For xy, it's actually easier to display the CIE diagram at the bottom of the screen as it will show whether the error is in the hue or in the saturation. Watch the movement of the point as you adjust the saturation and hue controls. You can also watch the delta xy at the same time to minimize it.
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post #10729 of 11804 Old 05-25-2018, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Yes.


The Y target is shown in the "grid", as well as the measured Y.

For xy, it's actually easier to display the CIE diagram at the bottom of the screen as it will show whether the error is in the hue or in the saturation. Watch the movement of the point as you adjust the saturation and hue controls. You can also watch the delta xy at the same time to minimize it.
Ok so I tried calibrating my primaries and secondaries and in most cases I can get things pretty good for 25, 50 and 75% however 100% is off in most cases, especially in the green which seems miles off the mark. Is this normal? Am I just seeing the limitations of my telly?

Cheers


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-I...WX6JrhoMqAhVWT
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post #10730 of 11804 Old 05-25-2018, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by CraftyClown View Post
Ok so I tried calibrating my primaries and secondaries and in most cases I can get things pretty good for 25, 50 and 75% however 100% is off in most cases, especially in the green which seems miles off the mark. Is this normal? Am I just seeing the limitations of my telly?
It doesn't look right.
Do you have the measurement before you adjusted CMS?
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post #10731 of 11804 Old 05-26-2018, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It doesn't look right.
Do you have the measurement before you adjusted CMS?
So it appears the problem was my display being in native mode. I thought I had read it was advised to always calibrate in native mode, however as your saw from my results it made a calibration next to impossible.

Putting the display in auto mode and going back to the CMS gave much better results this time and after much tweaking I have this...

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-K...8-MfaD8OB5zqpL

As you suggested I used the saturation sweeps to adjust the CMS and got much better results when focusing on 75% and below. I also went backwards and forward from the sweeps to the colour checker trying to get the best results for all other important colours. The colour checker finished with everything under a delta E of 2, apart from Orange and Orange/Yellow that were under 3.

!00% red and 100% green were way off the mark, but apart from that I'm pretty pleased.

I'd really appreciate you taking a last look if you have a moment free and giving me your opinion.

Thanks again
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post #10732 of 11804 Old 05-26-2018, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CraftyClown View Post
As you suggested I used the saturation sweeps to adjust the CMS and got much better results when focusing on 75% and below. I also went backwards and forward from the sweeps to the colour checker trying to get the best results for all other important colours. The colour checker finished with everything under a delta E of 2, apart from Orange and Orange/Yellow that were under 3.

!00% red and 100% green were way off the mark, but apart from that I'm pretty pleased.

I'd really appreciate you taking a last look if you have a moment free and giving me your opinion.
Have you tried using the 75%/75% colour space? (You may not want to re-adjust CMS, but at least take the measurements).
For green I would reduce saturation a bit, and adjust the hue "clockwise". That should also help with the magenta.
For red and yellow I would reduce Y a bit.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 05-26-2018 at 10:10 AM.
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post #10733 of 11804 Old 05-26-2018, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Have you tried using the 75%/75% colour space? (You may not want to re-adjust CMS, but at least take the measurements).
For green I would reduce saturation a bit, and adjust the hue "clockwise". That should also help with the magenta.
For red and yellow I would reduce Y a bit.
Ok so I did some measurements at 75/75 an I must confess I'm a little confused.

I haven't changed any settings on the display itself, however my colour readings actually seem improved and my grayscale now seems slightly worse.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how the 75%/75% works? I thought it just scales things down, making things easier for people with displays that struggle to reach the full Rec709.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-L...N4ZkGEa8N73mb9
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post #10734 of 11804 Old 05-26-2018, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CraftyClown View Post
Ok so I did some measurements at 75/75 an I must confess I'm a little confused.

I haven't changed any settings on the display itself, however my colour readings actually seem improved and my grayscale now seems slightly worse.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how the 75%/75% works? I thought it just scales things down, making things easier for people with displays that struggle to reach the full Rec709.
The 75%/75% only affects the primary and secondary colours. For grey scale the targets are exactly the same as Rec709, so any differences you noticed are either due to the drift in the TV itself or measurement repeatability. Even the saturation sweeps are the same.
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post #10735 of 11804 Old 05-26-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The 75%/75% only affects the primary and secondary colours. For grey scale the targets are exactly the same as Rec709, so any differences you noticed are either due to the drift in the TV itself or measurement repeatability. Even the saturation sweeps are the same.
Ok, so I think I'm finally there

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-O...PEnYJQvz4UqgTz

The only things that aren't great are 100% primaries and the colour orange/yellow (I'm guessing that's because it contains red?

Other than that I think everything else looks pretty good, unless there's anything else you think could do with tweaking?
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post #10736 of 11804 Old 05-26-2018, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CraftyClown View Post
Ok, so I think I'm finally there

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-O...PEnYJQvz4UqgTz

The only things that aren't great are 100% primaries and the colour orange/yellow (I'm guessing that's because it contains red?

Other than that I think everything else looks pretty good, unless there's anything else you think could do with tweaking?
Yes, looks good. What changes did you make from the "previous final"?
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post #10737 of 11804 Old 05-27-2018, 05:08 AM
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@zoyd


FYI-- Had an odd blow-up yesterday just after doing a 2084 gray scale run. For whatever reason the program appeared to have a refresh glitch (program window "flashed") and in doing that it changed the target MaxL box to something like 0.xxxx on its own. Since Override Targets was unchecked the box was was greyed out. The program kept asking me to put in a correct target MaxL number (1 - 10,000) but since it was greyed out I couldn't and it wouldn't let me out of that loop (cancel/apply didn't work, it was hung on looking for a correct range entry that I couldn't enter). Had to kill the program, delete the ini file and then everything was back on track.
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post #10738 of 11804 Old 05-27-2018, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Yes, looks good. What changes did you make from the "previous final"?
Nothing major. I did some work on the grayscale to tighten it up a little and then with the CMS it was just a case of some minor alterations.

To be honest it was something you said that made me thing about it differently. You mentioned adjusting the green hue clockwise and that was the first time I really thought about calibrating in a more visual way, using the CIE diagram to pull everything into position rather than get so hung up on the numbers.

Once everything was in the best place I could get it I tweaked the Ys to get everything locked into place. It seemed to work a charm


Never one to sit back and enjoy the fruits of my labour, I've thrown myself straight into getting the HDR mode as close to calibrated as I can. I'm not expecting miracles as this is a fairly budget TV however I figure it's at least worth a go to try and get the best out of it.

I do have a couple of initial questions before I get started if that's cool?

1. Under references I'm using the Rec2020/P3 profile is that correct for a basic HDR capable display?

2. I'm selecting SMPTE 2084 and ticking BT2390. Should I also select override targets and set my target MinL and target MaxL?

3. Is there anything else I should change under preferences?

4. After that is it just the same process as calibrating for REC709?
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post #10739 of 11804 Old 05-27-2018, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CraftyClown View Post
To be honest it was something you said that made me thing about it differently. You mentioned adjusting the green hue clockwise and that was the first time I really thought about calibrating in a more visual way, using the CIE diagram to pull everything into position rather than get so hung up on the numbers.
I don't consider it "casual" to use the CIE diagram. HCFR only displays dE and d-xy, not d-x and d-y separately, so the CIE diagram actually provides more precise information regarding the dE. and in most cases can achieve lower dE in the end.

EDIT: I misread “visual” as “casual”!

Quote:
1. Under references I'm using the Rec2020/P3 profile is that correct for a basic HDR capable display?
Yes, although if your TV has limited gamut, Rec2020/Rec709 may work better.

Quote:
2. I'm selecting SMPTE 2084 and ticking BT2390. Should I also select override targets and set my target MinL and target MaxL?
Yes, assuming your TV lets you access the 10-pt gamma control for HDR.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 05-27-2018 at 10:48 AM.
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post #10740 of 11804 Old 05-27-2018, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I don't consider it "casual" to use the CIE diagram. HCFR only displays dE and d-xy, not d-x and d-y separately, so the CIE diagram actually provides more precise information regarding the dE. and in most cases can achieve lower dE in the end.

EDIT: I misread “visual” as “casual”!


Yes, although if your TV has limited gamut, Rec2020/Rec709 may work better.


Yes, assuming your TV lets you access the 10-pt gamma control for HDR.
Thanks Dominic,

My 10 point controls do seem to work in HDR mode

How limited a gamut would yous suggest warrants the Rec2020/Rec709 profile and what is the difference between that and Rec2020/P3?


Here's my pre calibration report

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-O...HBXyrtQu9ZSRBR
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