HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 366 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10951 of 12071 Old 09-10-2018, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi,

A. Display Type: White LED, Reading Type: Display

B. Display Type: Projector, Reading Type: Display (Telephoto selection is for ColorMunki Spectro user, i1Display PRO don't support that mode)

Cheers Ted. Help much appreciated
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post #10952 of 12071 Old 09-10-2018, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
zoyd,
Couple of minor issues:
- Simulation does not work for BBC Hybrid Log-Gamma
@zoyd , I'm not sure it's just the simulation that's incorrect for BBC Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG). I don't understand why the REC.2020/P3 colour space is different for HLG compared to PQ (ST.2084). Looking at the CIE chart, the same colour space is larger when in HLG:
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Surely the colour space should be the same regardless of the EOTF?

This results in significant errors when calibrating HLG with REC.2020/P3:
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The same TV, with the same REC.2020/P3 colour space, but in PQ (ST.2084) gives near-perfect results:
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Last edited by tarbat; 09-10-2018 at 02:44 PM.
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post #10953 of 12071 Old 09-12-2018, 02:46 AM
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Hey.


I am wanting to use the "madVR test pattern generator" with HCFR. I've set the "Display image parameters" to madTPG. But when I go to measure I get a "Test pattern failure".

Have I missed a setting within HCFR I need to alter?

Thanks
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post #10954 of 12071 Old 09-12-2018, 06:26 AM
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I have saved in usercolors.csv targets for B6 HDR adjustment points (annexed, changed to .txt for quick upoad). Then I han run it as color checker.
Terrible dE as the Y target is taken for all the code value from Gray White at 100%. Any way I can fix that? Any way I can have something to whatch like a an RGB level graph?
Starting from defualt I have set SMTP 2084 HDR and UHDTV - Rec 2020. That's all I have done
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post #10955 of 12071 Old 09-12-2018, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post
Hey.


I am wanting to use the "madVR test pattern generator" with HCFR. I've set the "Display image parameters" to madTPG. But when I go to measure I get a "Test pattern failure".

Have I missed a setting within HCFR I need to alter?

Thanks
You have installed madvr right before trying this.?
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post #10956 of 12071 Old 09-12-2018, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
You have installed madvr right before trying this.?

Yep. What is strange (just checked before) is this is also happening on my other HTPC with the older (previously working) version's of HCFR & madVR. So what has changed I have no clue
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post #10957 of 12071 Old 09-12-2018, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post
Yep. What is strange (just checked before) is this is also happening on my other HTPC with the older (previously working) version's of HCFR & madVR. So what has changed I have no clue
Can you manual run madtpg from madvr folder and see if it runs fine?
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post #10958 of 12071 Old 09-12-2018, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
Can you manual run madtpg from madvr folder and see if it runs fine?

This works. I ran it with Agryll to create a LUT this morning
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post #10959 of 12071 Old 09-12-2018, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by magicj1 View Post
This works. I ran it with Agryll to create a LUT this morning
I'm out of ideas. Maybe you haven't closed Argyll and is running behind? You did a restart in pc?
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post #10960 of 12071 Old 09-12-2018, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueChris View Post
I'm out of ideas. Maybe you haven't closed Argyll and is running behind? You did a restart in pc?
No Chris you've been a great help. I just needed someone to bounce an idea or two off. It appears a Windows 7 update was preventing this from working. Update installed. This has fixed the issue.

Cheers, thanks for chipping in

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post #10961 of 12071 Old 09-15-2018, 04:45 PM
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Question on measuring HDR primaries/secondaries

I haven't used HCFR in many years and trying to get back into it. I used the option to measure my primaries/secondaries, and they all had a delta xy under 1, but the delta L was like -99% for each color, with a huge dE, and white was dE of 0.5. This was with BT2020/P3 as the reference gamut. Is there some step I have to prefer prior to measuring the primaries/secondaries for it to gather what it needs for a proper dE.

On a related note - I want to measure P3 within BT2020, to show how much of P3 I cover. Can someone explain how to do that please? Calman gives you your gamut cover and color volume in % of rec-709, P3 or BT2020. But not sure how to get this in HCFR.

Thanks!
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post #10962 of 12071 Old 09-15-2018, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I haven't used HCFR in many years and trying to get back into it. I used the option to measure my primaries/secondaries, and they all had a delta xy under 1, but the delta L was like -99% for each color, with a huge dE, and white was dE of 0.5. This was with BT2020/P3 as the reference gamut. Is there some step I have to prefer prior to measuring the primaries/secondaries for it to gather what it needs for a proper dE.
As I mentioned in the other thread, you need to get the grey scale calibrated (xy, Y) before attempting to measure/calibrate the colours, as those are dependent on the white.
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post #10963 of 12071 Old 09-15-2018, 09:51 PM
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Hello everyone!


I have quick favor to ask. I believe I have properly calibrated my TCL R615 for SDR content. However, while I am at the point where I feel confident calibrating for SDR material, past mistakes have made me weary regarding running an entire calibration with an aspect of HCFR misconfigured. If anyone could give my settings a quick glance and confirm there isn't a glaring error that I missed, I would be extremely appreciative. To give a bit of context:


- I turned off local dimming for the calibration though I will be using when watching content (I have been told to do this when calibrating in the past so I take it as a general rule).
- I made sure the RGB chain was properly set for my GPU, TV, and HCFR per Zoyd's recommendation.
- I used 10% windows to calibrate BT 1886 and was sure to set CIE2000 and use absolute Y w/ gamma


Here is the link to the CHC: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12UC...ew?usp=sharing



Thank you very much!
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post #10964 of 12071 Old 09-16-2018, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by KenJra View Post
Hello everyone!

I have quick favor to ask. I believe I have properly calibrated my TCL R615 for SDR content. However, while I am at the point where I feel confident calibrating for SDR material, past mistakes have made me weary regarding running an entire calibration with an aspect of HCFR misconfigured. If anyone could give my settings a quick glance and confirm there isn't a glaring error that I missed, I would be extremely appreciative. To give a bit of context:

- I turned off local dimming for the calibration though I will be using when watching content (I have been told to do this when calibrating in the past so I take it as a general rule).
- I made sure the RGB chain was properly set for my GPU, TV, and HCFR per Zoyd's recommendation.
- I used 10% windows to calibrate BT 1886 and was sure to set CIE2000 and use absolute Y w/ gamma

Here is the link to the CHC: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12UC...ew?usp=sharing

Thank you very much!
Hi, are you using your PC for content playback? or you used it only for patch generation?

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #10965 of 12071 Old 09-16-2018, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, are you using your PC for content playback? or you used it only for patch generation?

For the set whos CHC file I attached, I only had the PC connected to serve as the patch generator. I will almost exclusively use the built in apps for content playback so I thought it best to use RGB limited on the GPU and TV with HCFR expecting 0-255.



The general rule I adhere to (I hope not erroneously) is to calibrate using full RGB when calibrated for PC content and limited RBG for blu-ray players, consoles, and streaming devices. It appears everything but my PCs default to limited and the content they display is intended for that. If this thinking is incorrect, please let me know.
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post #10966 of 12071 Old 09-16-2018, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by KenJra View Post
For the set whos CHC file I attached, I only had the PC connected to serve as the patch generator. I will almost exclusively use the built in apps for content playback so I thought it best to use RGB limited on the GPU and TV with HCFR expecting 0-255.

The general rule I adhere to (I hope not erroneously) is to calibrate using full RGB when calibrated for PC content and limited RBG for blu-ray players, consoles, and streaming devices. It appears everything but my PCs default to limited and the content they display is intended for that. If this thinking is incorrect, please let me know.
Hi, consumer movie content is delivered in video levels (16-235), to the whole movie industry, for that reason you have to calibrate for video levels.

You have to setup your notebook to output video level patterns, set HCFR to generate 16-235 and VGA output as 0-255, set the TV to expect 16-235 levels. With that configuration you may have accurate output. It's something you have to verify. Playback some video stream patterns from inside your applications you are using and compare the same patterns generated from your notebook and HCFR software generator. If you find agreement (black/white levels, grayscale RGB balance/gamma and color gamut measurements) then you will be safely use your notebook and HCFR software patch generator, if you don't find agreement then you have to do it manually using video stream patterns from inside the application you are using.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #10967 of 12071 Old 09-16-2018, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

@Dominic Chan A few follow up items if you would be so kind:

Please see attached pics of the various HCFR measurements as a reference for these questions:
I’ve moved the discussion here as it really has nothing to do with JVC autocal software.
I can have a better look at your results if you post your HCFR .chc file here (zipped), rather than the screenshots.
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post #10968 of 12071 Old 09-16-2018, 12:49 PM
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I’ve moved the discussion here as it really has nothing to do with JVC autocal software.
I can have a better look at your results if you post your HCFR .chc file here (zipped), rather than the screenshots.
Thanks! Yes that's a much better idea. See attached.
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post #10969 of 12071 Old 09-16-2018, 01:15 PM
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So I've got the HDR test patterns from R.Masciola, how do I go about calibrating HDR10 on my LG OLED B7 using these + HCFR + an i1D3 (retail)?

I've searched around but I haven't found anything up to date. Do I need the list of 8-bit values for the TV, or are these included in HCFR now?
I'm sure there's a magic post in this thread someone can link me to, but nearly 11k posts isn't feasible to read through, and the search function isn't amazing
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post #10970 of 12071 Old 09-16-2018, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Thanks! Yes that's a much better idea. See attached.
You won't be able to measure the colours accurately until you first fix the grey scale (i.e., measured Y matching Target Y in addition to D65 colour temperature).

Also, I thought you were calibrating HDR?

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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Please see attached pics of the various HCFR measurements as a reference for these questions:

1. Manni suggests using the spreadsheet method for BT709 and BT2020, when used with the filter. I'd like to try this for my BT2020F (and not my BT2020NF). Earlier you said I can do the same measurements in HCFR as are being done in the CalMAN workflow. Can you please explain how to measure the 50-100% for R, G, and B in HCFR to get the values needed for the spreadsheet? I see an option to measure the saturations for RGB, but not sure where within HCFR I can measure 50-100% in 10% increments?
As Manni explained (and I’ve said the same), the Rec709 calibration takes care of the BT.2020NF white point, so there’s no need for that.
In the GDI dialog box you can change the stimulus level. I usually use only 2 levels.

Quote:
Can you please explain how to use the CMS to improve things like you said you were able to do (you went from 1.9/3.0 to 1.1/1.9 and my level of error also seems to be in the same 1.9/3.0 range)? I experimented with the brightness, hue, saturation and axis of red and blue for a couple hours. Adding a 1-2 Saturation for these colors did move the dots inside the gamut shown in the HFCR CIE chart from an under-saturated position more into their target "boxes". However the dE for the saturations didn't improve much.
Do not touch the Axis adjustments.
When you adjust hue and saturation based on the CIE diagram, keep an eye on the delta-L. If it changes (most likely it will), adjust the colour brightness and iterate.

Quote:
3. The attached gamma chart was taken with gamma set as Normal, following a gamma autocal which showed a straight white line in its results. Notice how the curve is higher than the 2.2 reference. Is this to be expected, where JVC "normal" actually runs a bit high? I assume this is like a 2.1 gamma, but I wasn't sure in HCFR where it actually shows the gamma average on this chart (it used to in old versions of HCFR) - where I can I find that?
There is an icon for the gamma, next to the luminance. Are all the gamma controls (Picture tone, Dark Levels, etc) all in their neutral positions? Make sure HCFR Reference is set for gamma 2.2, not BT.1886 (the default).

Quote:
4. Although I cannot use a custom profile with BT2020NF to fix up the dE on the colors, can the CMS still be used to fine tune that?
Yes. I have mentioned that already.

Quote:
5. Notice how nice the grayscale dE came out. This was done with the RGB gains measured at 100%. The tweaks required were pretty minimal, OTTOMH it was something like -10 green and -4 red. Again this was measured off the screen with the i1D3, correcting any errors from the Spyder5 plus correcting for color shift caused by the screen itself.
Yes, that is the expected outcome. It’s best to measure 20 points as the anomalies tend to be in the low end, between 5 and 10%. You can also make a Near Black run to check in finer steps.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 09-16-2018 at 05:52 PM.
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post #10971 of 12071 Old 09-16-2018, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You won't be able to measure the colours accurately until you first fix the grey scale (i.e., measured Y matching Target Y in addition to D65 colour temperature).
Thanks. I had asked about this previously. After running the gamma auto-cal, the gamma that was in my last zip file is the gamma I get with gamma set to "Normal" and no other tweaks to it. I don't know what the measurement is because I can't tell how to get that number in HCFR, but I can tell from the graph that it is likely 2.1 or maybe even lower.

I have to change the JVC gamma to Custom with a correction value of 2.4. THEN it measures along that gamma curve perfectly.

Quote:
Also, I thought you were calibrating HDR?
I am. OK, so if you are asking me this then I take it you see something that I do not have set up properly in HCFR? I use BT2020 both for HDR and SDR, as I have other sources like a settop box and Nvidia Shield that output SDR BT2020. In that case the only thing I will change is gamma from Custom/2.4 (SDR) to Custom/Import to get to my custom curve for HDR.

I did notice that the colors measure wacky if I calibrate around the custom import HDR curve. Maybe I have to adjust something in HCFR to tell it to do HDR? Where/what setting is that please? In the meantime I have just assumed that I could calibrate BT2020 with filter and SDR, and when I put it into a gamma mode for HDR everything will still be calibrated, no?

Quote:
In the GDI dialog box you can change the stimulus level. I usually use only 2 levels.
So you change the stimulus level there from 100% to 50%? And you change the "4" levels measure to 10, in order to get the 10% increments, so you can get 50-100% if making the custom profile (the measures needed for Chad's spreadsheet)?

Quote:
Do not touch the Axis adjustments.
When you adjust hue and saturation based on the CIE diagram, keep an eye on the delta-L. If it changes (most likely it will), adjust the colour brightness and iterate.
I spent a lot of time experimenting with the CMS today. Basically I used the CIE chart to gauge if any colors Saturation needed to be increased or decreased, and watched the dE for 0, 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% for RGBCYM and tweaked until I had the dE as low as possible.

Quote:
There is an icon for the gamma, next to the luminance.
Does that icon tell me what the gamma actually measured? I can't find where HCFR provides the gamma measure, only can see the gamma curve itself.

Can you tell me where specifically the gamma icon is? I wasn't sure what you meant by "next to the luminance". I just looked around for a while and don't see what you're referring to.

Quote:
Are all the gamma controls (Picture tone, Dark Levels, etc) all in their neutral positions? Make sure HCFR Reference is set for gamma 2.2, not BT.1886 (the default).
Yes all gamma controls were neutral. But BT1886 was set as the default, and even with it changed to 2.2 as the target, I had to change the JVC gamma setting from "Normal" to "2.4" and then it matched the 2.2 curve. From there the colors measured much better.

Quote:
It’s best to measure 20 points as the anomalies tend to be in the low end, between 5 and 10%. You can also make a Near Black run to check in finer steps.
If there is an anomaly in the low end, is there anything we can do about it anyway?

NEW RESULTS:

After hours of experimenting today, here's where I am:

1. I have completely given up on trying to use BT2020NF. First, my net brightness gain after calibrating each mode to D65 is only 8% without the filter. Even tho I am STARVED for HDR nits, that's just not enough to really make much of a difference. And second, the colors are a mess. The gamut is screwy with BT2020 without the filter, and the success I had with the CMS and excellent dE's is no where in reach in BT2020NF. So especially given its only a 8% net gain for me in nits, its not worth the poor dE (color check 2.5 - 5 for many colors).

2. On the other hand, I had great success getting an excellent calibration for BT2020 with the filter. I did the autocal and then used the RGB gains to dial in 100%, which gave me a grayscale dE of 0 - 1.2ish IIRC. Then I made some tweaks with the CMS and got the color checker to mostly be under 1.0 dE across the board. There are a few color checker points that were maybe 1.5ish but for the most part the results are about as good as when I used to use CalMAN and a Lumagen with 3D LUT on my previous projector VW95 about 4-5 years ago.

Can you please have a look at the attached chc file, which is my latest. This is the i1D3 measuring off the screen, with everything dialed in an the JVC set for a 2.4 gamma. I measured basically everything, including many of the color checker options, grayscale, primary/secondaries/saturations, near black/white etc. I'd love to know if you think I've nailed it or if you think it still needs work.

And there's also the question now I have why you are asking "I thought you are calibrating HDR?" so I am thinking I setup HCFR wrong or perhaps there's a way to set up HCFR so I can use my custom gamma curve with HCFR in the calibration/testing?

Thank you!!
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post #10972 of 12071 Old 09-16-2018, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
So you change the stimulus level there from 100% to 50%? And you change the "4" levels measure to 10, in order to get the 10% increments, so you can get 50-100% if making the custom profile (the measures needed for Chad's spreadsheet)?
I was referring to the colour measurements, which can be measured only one level at a time. If you're measuring white, you can just take numbers from directly from the grey scale measurements, under 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 (however many columns you want).

Quote:
I spent a lot of time experimenting with the CMS today. Basically I used the CIE chart to gauge if any colors Saturation needed to be increased or decreased, and watched the dE for 0, 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% for RGBCYM and tweaked until I had the dE as low as possible.
That's how most people do it, but not me. I aim to minimize delta-xy when adjusting Hue and Saturation, and minimize delta-L when I adjust colour brightness. That gives me better end results than monitoring delta-E alone. Also, ignore 0% which is meaningless for CMS.


Quote:
Does that icon tell me what the gamma actually measured? I can't find where HCFR provides the gamma measure, only can see the gamma curve itself.
Can you tell me where specifically the gamma icon is? I wasn't sure what you meant by "next to the luminance". I just looked around for a while and don't see what you're referring to.
What you call the "gamma curve" is Luminance graph in HCFR. If you hover the mouse pointer over the icons on the top, HCFR tells you what each one is. From the Green triangle icon, the next ones (to the right) are Measures, Luminance, Gamma, RGB Levels, Colour Temperature, CIE Diagram, etc. Your gamma (yellow line) is not flat, it matches BT.1886 curve (dashed white line) almost exactly - see attached figure. Double-check (reset if necessary) your gamma settings as it just doesn't look right if all the controls are in the neutral position.

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And there's also the question now I have why you are asking "I thought you are calibrating HDR?" so I am thinking I setup HCFR wrong or perhaps there's a way to set up HCFR so I can use my custom gamma curve with HCFR in the calibration/testing?
If you're calibrating HDR you should measure the colour gamut when the gamma is set for ST.2084, not 2.2 or 2.4.
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post #10973 of 12071 Old 09-16-2018, 10:33 PM
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What you call the "gamma curve" is Luminance graph in HCFR. If you hover the mouse pointer over the icons on the top, HCFR tells you what each one is. From the Green triangle icon, the next ones (to the right) are Measures, Luminance, Gamma, RGB Levels, Colour Temperature, CIE Diagram, etc.
Thanks. I see where my misunderstanding was now.

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Your gamma (yellow line) is not flat, it matches BT.1886 curve (dashed white line) almost exactly - see attached figure. Double-check (reset if necessary) your gamma settings as it just doesn't look right if all the controls are in the neutral position.
Yes I agree - it sure looks like BT.1886 curve. However I have triple (and more) checked the JVC settings. I've measured with gamma on Normal, as well as gamma set to Custom with a correction factor or 2.2, 2.3, and 2.4. And in all those cases the three sliders (picture tone, bright, dark) were on 0. They all do the same thing with this higher gamma from 10-30 slopping upward. I tried clicking the Reset option in these gamma menus and remeasuring, but they measure exactly the same. Perhaps even worse, Normal gamma and Custom with 2.2 correction actually measures about 1.9 - 2.0 on average! I have to select Custom/2.4 to get a 2.2 result (and even then it still resembles BT.1886).

I am 100% sure I did a gamma+color on the "Reference" color profile with the High Lamp and CMD 0 and iris 0 - same settings I am using now. Except I am using the BT2020 custom color profile, with a color autocal on it. This BT2020 profile is just a default (no profile correction).

Prior to that autocal, I had done a Log reading, and the measured line was bowed upward quite a bit. You may remember the screenshot of it I posted 2-3 days ago in the JVC autocal thread. During that session I ran a gamma+color and when it was done the white line shown in the autocal results was perfectly straight (at a 45 degree angle). When this ran, all 4 settings Profile, Gamma, Color Temp and the other one (can't recall) showed values like Reference, Normal, 6500K etc and none of them had the "-" mark.

What do you think could be going on here? One difference is that I am measuring the gamma in HCFR off the screen with the i1D3, versus the autocal which is using the Spyder5 facing the pj. It is aligned as Manni recommends, with the meter just on the right edge of the box. This is unlikely a Spyder5 error, as those meters may have issues with color but they are pretty reliable in terms of brightness. I don't think the screen itself would be impacting the measures off the screen vs direct from the lens.

What do you think may be going on?

What would you recommend I try in order to reset the gamma? Do you think it would help to rerun a gamma-only autocal with these same settings? If that doesn't work, what would you suggest from there?

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If you're calibrating HDR you should measure the colour gamut when the gamma is set for ST.2084, not 2.2 or 2.4.
Recall that I'm using a totally custom HDR curve, via Arve's Tools and the various params we'd be discussing a week or two ago. How does/will a custom curve effect the color gamut? Am I then supposed to tweak the CMS with HCFR set to ST.2084 and will the CMS settings and results be highly dependent on the how one customizes the curve then?

Thank you!!
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post #10974 of 12071 Old 09-17-2018, 12:21 AM
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You have to setup your notebook to output video level patterns, set HCFR to generate 16-235 and VGA output as 0-255, set the TV to expect 16-235 levels. With that configuration you may have accurate output. It's something you have to verify. Playback some video stream patterns from inside your applications you are using and compare the same patterns generated from your notebook and HCFR software generator. If you find agreement (black/white levels, grayscale RGB balance/gamma and color gamut measurements) then you will be safely use your notebook and HCFR software patch generator, if you don't find agreement then you have to do it manually using video stream patterns from inside the application you are using.

Thank you for the information. Luckily, it appears I will be able to use my PC as an automatic patch generator. I threw some of the MP4-2c patches onto a flash drive and tested them directly connected to my set. Results seemed to be quite similar to the PC patches ( > 0.4 difference in Delta E ). Knowing this, I believe I am set with the calibration I shared earlier assuming nothing else is amiss.



One additional question: Is calibrating with a power law gamma of 2.2 or 2.4 or using BT. 1886 truly a matter of preference as some sources have said? I have used all three over the past year but never got a definitive answer on if one in particular is now considering the most recommended for a controlled lighting viewing environment. My current understanding is 2.4 for dark/dim environments, 2.2 for brighter viewing spaces. Not 100% sure where, if at all, BT 1886 is recommended. I calibrated to that standard simply because it was the default setting for HCFR.
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Thank you for the information. Luckily, it appears I will be able to use my PC as an automatic patch generator. I threw some of the MP4-2c patches onto a flash drive and tested them directly connected to my set. Results seemed to be quite similar to the PC patches ( > 0.4 difference in Delta E ). Knowing this, I believe I am set with the calibration I shared earlier assuming nothing else is amiss.
If your black level, white level, RGB balance, gamma, color gamut tracking is ok, then you can use it, no problem.

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One additional question: Is calibrating with a power law gamma of 2.2 or 2.4 or using BT. 1886 truly a matter of preference as some sources have said? I have used all three over the past year but never got a definitive answer on if one in particular is now considering the most recommended for a controlled lighting viewing environment. My current understanding is 2.4 for dark/dim environments, 2.2 for brighter viewing spaces. Not 100% sure where, if at all, BT 1886 is recommended. I calibrated to that standard simply because it was the default setting for HCFR.
The standards are changing over the years, right now is 2.4 gamma, see here: https://tech.ebu.ch/publications/tech3320

At past they were 2.35, before that 2.2. This means that older movies mastered for difference gamma.
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I am 100% sure I did a gamma+color on the "Reference" color profile with the High Lamp and CMD 0 and iris 0 - same settings I am using now. Except I am using the BT2020 custom color profile, with a color autocal on it. This BT2020 profile is just a default (no profile correction).
If that’s the only difference then remeasure with the “Reference” profile. If that also shows the gamma droop then remeasure both using autocal Log only.

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Prior to that autocal, I had done a Log reading, and the measured line was bowed upward quite a bit. You may remember the screenshot of it I posted 2-3 days ago in the JVC autocal thread.
Perhaps we shouldn’t have moved the discussion here, after all.

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During that session I ran a gamma+color and when it was done the white line shown in the autocal results was perfectly straight (at a 45 degree angle). When this ran, all 4 settings Profile, Gamma, Color Temp and the other one (can't recall) showed values like Reference, Normal, 6500K etc and none of them had the "-" mark.
You didn’t measure BT.2020, the one that’s showing the gamma droop now.

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Recall that I'm using a totally custom HDR curve, via Arve's Tools and the various params we'd be discussing a week or two ago. How does/will a custom curve effect the color gamut? Am I then supposed to tweak the CMS with HCFR set to ST.2084 and will the CMS settings and results be highly dependent on the how one customizes the curve then?
In theory gamma does not affect gamut, but it may affect the measurements in two ways:
  1. For HDR the colour gamut is measured at 50% stimulus level, unlike SDR which typically measures gamut at 100% stimulus
  2. The Y level at 50% stimulus depends heavily on the EOTF, unlike 100% stimulus which is independent of EOTF.
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The standards are changing over the years, right now is 2.4 gamma, see here: https://tech.ebu.ch/publications/tech3320

At past they were 2.35, before that 2.2. This means that older movies mastered for difference gamma.
Hi Ted,

2.2 was commonly used but I don’t think it was ever the standard. Old movies were graded on CRT displays and EBU TECH 3320 says

Quote:
Any new monitor technology should retain the same electro-optical transfer function that has historically been used.
...
It has been found from measurement techniques, progressively refined over several decades, that a correctly designed CRT display has an EOTF gamma of approximately 2.35 [5]. This is part of the ‘immovable legacy effect’ of the CRT.
The document also says there’s no perceivable difference between 2.35 and 2.4. Gamma is now specified to one decimal place only.

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post #10978 of 12071 Old 09-17-2018, 08:25 AM
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Hi Ted,

2.2 was commonly used but I don’t think it was ever the standard. Old movies were graded on CRT displays and EBU TECH 3320 says

The document also says there’s no perceivable difference between 2.35 and 2.4. Gamma is now specified to one decimal place only.
About 2013 or earlier we were calibrating for 2.2 gamma.

As you have seen, even current displays, which designed as gamma based, for example LG OLED's 2018 for example, when you disable tone/gamut mapping, you calibrate for 2.2 gamma, because panels are designed based to 2.2 gamma.

CRT's were 2.2 gamma (it has the default gamma for REC.708 in LightSpace at past), see there: https://www.lightillusion.com/forums...topic=4#msg907

You have to look what older reference papers say to find out (there no only EBU), it will take many hours from me to search to all my PDF's here to find the one which say 2.2

If you generate 2 3D LUT tables, one with 2.35 and one with 2.4, there visible difference which you will switch between them.

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If that’s the only difference then remeasure with the “Reference” profile.
I assume you mean measure with the i1D3. I think I measured Reference and it measured the same, but I can't be sure. So I'll recheck this later today.

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If that also shows the gamma droop then remeasure both using autocal Log only.
If the autocal Log only on both BT2020 and Reference show a straight white line, what would you recommend as a next step? Just trying to plan ahead so I can look into more on the spot, depending on what I find.

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You didn’t measure BT.2020, the one that’s showing the gamma droop now.
What do you mean I didn't measure BT2020? Measure it where? That is the one that is measured in the chc, which reads at like 1.9 - 2.0 if the gamma is set to Normal or 2.2 and the one we've been talking about. So I'm confused why you say I haven't measured it.

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In theory gamma does not affect gamut, but it may affect the measurements in two ways:
  1. For HDR the colour gamut is measured at 50% stimulus level, unlike SDR which typically measures gamut at 100% stimulus
  2. The Y level at 50% stimulus depends heavily on the EOTF, unlike 100% stimulus which is independent of EOTF.
Does that also mean that the 50% points inside the gamut (saturations) are more important for HDR than the edges of the gamut? Or am I confusing stimulus level with saturation level?
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If the autocal Log only on both BT2020 and Reference show a straight white line, what would you recommend as a next step? Just trying to plan ahead so I can look into more on the spot, depending on what I find.
I wouldn't know what to do in that case. That would defy logic.

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What do you mean I didn't measure BT2020? Measure it where? That is the one that is measured in the chc, which reads at like 1.9 - 2.0 if the gamma is set to Normal or 2.2 and the one we've been talking about. So I'm confused why you say I haven't measured it.
I have not seen in your previous posts that you measured the gamma droop and subsequent fix in Autocal using the BT2020 profile.

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Does that also mean that the 50% points inside the gamut (saturations) are more important for HDR than the edges of the gamut? Or am I confusing stimulus level with saturation level?
To avoid the ambiguity, I made sure I said 50% stimulus level, so that it won't be confused with 50% saturation.
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