HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 375 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1441Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #11221 of 12072 Old 01-03-2019, 12:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,416
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3273 Post(s)
Liked: 4056
Quote:
Originally Posted by jowicrt View Post
I can see the Y and the Y-target now, but how do i change this? If i do a grayscale measurement now, i don't even get a nice straight line at 100%, but a bulge, 60% level at 10% white, 120% at 50% white and 100% at 90% white?
According to your measured Black/White patches and your selected target gamma, the 10-90% Y targets will be calculated.

If you see that your measured Y is higher then reduce equally all RGB controls of that step to reduce Y (luminance) for that grayscale step, if there lower Y, then increase RGB controls of that grayscale step.

Before doing parametric adjustments of xx-Point of RGB balance controls you have, you can measure all your gamma presets of the picture mode you are using to find out which preset is closer to your target gamma, so later it will require less adjustments from your side. (re-do contrast/brightness also)

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #11222 of 12072 Old 01-03-2019, 12:24 PM
Advanced Member
 
jowicrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Posts: 903
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 704 Post(s)
Liked: 208
I can't set RGB for each gray bar/step; i only have gain and offset for r,g and b for the total grayscale.
But i've played around with this a bit; i now do have an average gamma of just a tad below 2.1...
The gamma in the settings is set to BT.1886, is that correct btw?

pdf was too big; grabbed pics instead:

Arcam AVR850 • Pioneer KURO KRP-600M • KEF Reference Model 4/2/200c •• Velodyne DD15 •• HDI Dune 4K Solo • Logitech Squeezebox Radio/Duet • Wyrewizard Dreamcaster & Spellbinder (by Nordost) • JVC D-ILA-X7500 • HDFury Vertex

Last edited by jowicrt; 01-03-2019 at 02:33 PM.
jowicrt is offline  
post #11223 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 01:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,416
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3273 Post(s)
Liked: 4056
Quote:
Originally Posted by jowicrt View Post
I can't set RGB for each gray bar/step; i only have gain and offset for r,g and b for the total grayscale.
But i've played around with this a bit; i now do have an average gamma of just a tad below 2.1...
The gamma in the settings is set to BT.1886, is that correct btw?
Hi, use gamma 2.4.

Since you are using a Dell monitor, its not having parametric RGB balance controls like consumer TV's are equipped.

Since these results you post are the best you can do using your limited display controls, you can continue by installing i1Profiler or DisplayCAL to calibrate your VCGT (VideoCardGammaTable, which is multiple point of RGB Balance/Gamma, 1D LUT), so your gamma will be calibrated perfectly using that procedure and your RGB balance also.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #11224 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 02:10 AM
Member
 
Roland.Online's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Hi all

I've just recalibrated my Samsung UE40ES7000 which is an older 2012 model LCD HDTV. Last time I did so was about 3 years ago, so felt it was overdue for another go.

Calibration was done using an i1 Display Pro, profiled to the display using an i1 Pro (rev D). Software was HCFR 3.5.1.4 (thanks @zoyd for another quality release ) and AVS HD 709 patterns. Display controls used were 2-pt, gamma (to obtain adjustment headroom), 10-pt and CMS.


My normal viewing is night-time, with fairly low-level lighting, measuring approx 4.1 lux at the observer, and occasionally dim lighting measuring approx 2.1 lux.


I'm fairly pleased with the numerical results, based on a BT.1886 with 2.2 effective @ 100% ref, and 0.05 cd/m^2 black override, but I need to watch more material to see if I've got the reference right for my viewing.

The grayscale and EOTF/gamma both track really well, and overall white balance dE is ok. I was really impressed with how well the 10-pt controls were able to tighten up the EOTF tracking. Gamut and saturation tracking is not so great, with red in particular being problematic, and some weird kink in magenta - not sure what I can do there.

The CMS adjustments were made using 100% saturation patterns for both primaries and secondaries. I've not tried calibrating 75% saturation, as I have no idea how to (going to ask about this in a separate post).

Any thoughts on improving what I've got, or how to address the gamut and saturation tracking?

Many thanks
Roland
Attached Files
File Type: zip 2018-12-27_UE40ES7000_full.zip (49.4 KB, 5 views)
Roland.Online is offline  
post #11225 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 04:07 AM
Member
 
Roland.Online's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Hi again

I've just done a calibration of my Samsung UE40ES7000, latest results here.

I'd like to explore a tweaking the gamut at 75% saturations using CMS controls, but I have no idea how to go about it.

I've read various (zoyd) posts (Dominic Chan) on this forum, but I've not found a clear, reliable workflow.

What I'd like to know is:
1. when "REC 709 (75%/75%)" color space is selected, how does this affect any existing measures, targets or dEs?
2. does this affect how an existing gamut is represented or what is shown in the CIE diagram?
3. similarly, how does this affect any new measures?
4. which measures can or should be performed when this color space is selected?
5. which measures should not be performed (or are invalid or meaningless if performed)?
6. when should "REC 709 (75%/75%)" be chosen in a workflow around other principal calibration (ie. 2-pt, 10-pt, etc.)

Also, I understand why the patterns use 75% saturation, but unclear why also 75% amplitude - what's the thinking behind that amplitude; why not 100%?

In terms of workflow, what is the process?

I would assume:
1. create a new capture file, with "REC 709" color space is selected.
2. measure primaries, secondaries and saturations - this should show errors and targets in the "correct" color space.
3. switch to "REC 709 (75%/75%)".
4. for each primary and secondary, choose the saturation scale, and adjust the CMS controls in continuous capture with the 75% column selected, with the "modified" Y target based on the lower 75% luminance.
5. switch back to "REC 709" and remeasure primaries, secondaries and saturations.
6. presumably, the actual color dEs whilst in "REC 709 (75%/75%)" might be slightly different from dEs remeasured in "REC 709"?

Is this correct?
Should this be done *after* grayscale and white balance?
Should I also remeasure grayscale in "REC 709" in case there's a shift due to CMS adjustment?

What else am I missing?

Many thanks
Roland
Roland.Online is offline  
post #11226 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 05:05 AM
Member
 
Roland.Online's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Hi @zoyd

I have a question about the parameters used to tweak BT.1886 curve behaviour.

I've read your / various / posts about this, but given the EOTF function described in ITU-R BT.1886 I would be grateful if you could share exactly how the "effective", "% input offset" and "override black" adjustment parameters affect the published EOTF.

It would be great if you could explain how, mathematically, you've modified the reference BT.1886 EOTF function to incorporate these parameters .

Many thanks
Roland
Roland.Online is offline  
post #11227 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 07:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,416
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3273 Post(s)
Liked: 4056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland.Online View Post
Hi all

I've just recalibrated my Samsung UE40ES7000 which is an older 2012 model LCD HDTV. Last time I did so was about 3 years ago, so felt it was overdue for another go.

Calibration was done using an i1 Display Pro, profiled to the display using an i1 Pro (rev D). Software was HCFR 3.5.1.4 (thanks @zoyd for another quality release ) and AVS HD 709 patterns. Display controls used were 2-pt, gamma (to obtain adjustment headroom), 10-pt and CMS.

The CMS adjustments were made using 100% saturation patterns for both primaries and secondaries. I've not tried calibrating 75% saturation, as I have no idea how to (going to ask about this in a separate post).

Any thoughts on improving what I've got, or how to address the gamut and saturation tracking?
Hi Roland,

Since you are using AVSHD, it has a mismatch to grayscale patterns (see more details reading the ''3'' here), this can be fixed from inside HCFR with a software offset, see here what you can do to fix the issue: LG 2017 OLED Calibration Thread and Settings

Also the 4-Point Saturation of AVSHD is not compatible with HCFR (and there no fix about this), for example:

AVSHD 50% Red Saturation Pattern has RGB Triplet 190.95.95 but HCFR's Color Engine needs/calculates errors from RGB Triplet 191.96.96, it's 0.42 dE2000 error.

AVSHD 75% Magenta Saturation Pattern has RGB Triplet 203.100.203 but HCFR's Color Engine needs/calculates errors from RGB Triplet 202.99.202, it's 0.36 dE2000 error.

AVSHD for Color Gamut calibration it has 100% Color patterns (which means 100% Saturation with 100% Luminance level) and 75% Color patterns (which means 100% Saturation with 75% Luminance level).

There no 75% Saturation patterns where you can use/test. Usually with Samsung LCD's, it calibrates better the CMS with 75% Saturation patterns.

Your Samsung UE40ES7000 also, something newer models don't have available, feature an additional calibration control called 'Flesh Tones'.

After having performed a full CMS calibration using the available RGBCMY controls of Samsung, measure the ColorChecker SG Fleshtones patterns with HCFR to see how it performs with Skintones accuracy. The Samsung Fleshtone slider is changing the hue specifically to the area where typical skin tones shades are located. The + or - values are moving the Skintones shades towards to green or blue. That's why you have to measure the +-1,2 values there to see which performs better.

I have posted more details about this here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56670668
Roland.Online likes this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
post #11228 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 08:44 AM
Member
 
Roland.Online's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Since you are using AVSHD, it has a mismatch to grayscale patterns, this can be fixed from inside HCFR with a software offset.

Also the 4-Point Saturation of AVSHD is not compatible with HCFR.
Hi Ted, thanks for flagging the bit-rounding issue, that might explain the tracking kinks in the saturations!

I do have both GCD and Mascior's discs, so I'll probably give it another go with one of those.

NB: I notice in HCFR that sometimes that the rounding option is disabled (and defaults to unchecked) - any idea why?

Quote:
There no 75% Saturation patterns where you can use/test. Usually with Samsung LCD's, it calibrates better the CMS with 75% Saturation patterns.

Good to know that for the Samsungs. For the 75% CMS calibration, that's where I'm unsure of workflow-wise; see my follow-up post here.

Quote:
Your Samsung UE40ES7000 also, something newer models don't have available, feature an additional calibration control called 'Flesh Tones'.

Yeah I couldn't be bothered doing a ColorChecker SG scan, as it all takes a while with manual patterns but I did notice that control on my display: I'm normally wary of such things, as you have no idea what they might do to upset all the rest of your carefully crafted calibration, but I'll certainly do a ColorChecker scan and have a play once I've reworked the 10-pt and CMS @ 75%.

Thanks again.
Roland
Roland.Online is offline  
post #11229 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 08:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,951
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4885 Post(s)
Liked: 1849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland.Online View Post
I notice in HCFR that sometimes that the rounding option is disabled (and defaults to unchecked) - any idea why?
The rounding error is only an issue when using AVSHD and DVE disc patterns. The intended behaviour is to have the rounding option disabled when you're using an automatic pattern generator. Have you seen anything different?
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #11230 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 11:40 AM
Member
 
guida74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 13
JVC X35 gamma calibration

Hello to all,

Perhaps someone can shed some light on my recent attempt to calibrate my JVC X35 projector.

I purchased a brand-new OEM i1D3 and have taken measurements both facing the screen (telephoto mode) and facing the projector (ambient mode) with extremely close readings for xyY. I have also used the AVS HD 709 disc as well as the internal pattern generator in HCFR with like readings also.

After multiple sweeps to find the greyscale/ gamma (my target 2.3) I settled on the Custom 3 picture slot, had to reduce contrast to -7 to reduce the overall luminance errors with Custom Gamma 2.5 selected on the projector.

The original bulb is nearing 1,200 hrs. and running multiple greyscale sweeps for 6500K, 7000K, 7500K is revealing a green push which is linear across 10% to 100% IRE. I had to reduce the green gain to -39 (is this normal?) to achieve R=G=B, red is the weakest colour and blue is extremely high in the lower IRE range and at 100%.

I achieved a fairly linear grayscale, but I am struggling with the low gamma. I have been reading/ researching as to how to use the multipoint gamma to adjust the RGB at each point in the JVC’s custom gamma settings but not sure if I fully understand how to use these controls. There are adjustable multiple gamma points 5% up to 95% (12 point) with controls to adjust each primary. There is also white point adjustment which I think lowers/ raises all three primaries equally (luminance?). I though +/- green was used to adjust to Y target, then adjust blue & red +/- to match.

I have attached my post calibration file for reference but I can’t figure out why there is so much blue at 10% IRE, I tried putting up the 10% white field and reducing blue and it doesn’t respond to the gamma controls. Should I start at the higher IRE’s and work my way down or it doesn’t matter?
Could the green push and excessive blue at 0% & 100% be a result of the aging bulb? Any comments/ suggestions on how to calibrate the gamma would be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks
Attached Files
File Type: zip Color Measures1 (JVC X35).zip (11.1 KB, 7 views)
guida74 is offline  
post #11231 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 12:35 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,416
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3273 Post(s)
Liked: 4056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland.Online View Post
Good to know that for the Samsungs. For the 75% CMS calibration, that's where I'm unsure of workflow-wise; see my follow-up post
You will use 75% Saturation with 75% Luminance patterns and you will select as target color space the REC.709 75/75 from HCFR Preferences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland.Online View Post
Yeah I couldn't be bothered doing a ColorChecker SG scan, as it all takes a while with manual patterns but I did notice that control on my display: I'm normally wary of such things, as you have no idea what they might do to upset all the rest of your carefully crafted calibration, but I'll certainly do a ColorChecker scan and have a play once I've reworked the 10-pt and CMS @ 75%.
You will not measure the ColorChecker SG (96 patches), but only the CalMAN’s Color Checker SG Fleshtones (19 Colors) or ChromaPure’s Color Checker Skin Tones (19 Colors). Both are not available to Mascior's or GDC.

Adjusting Flesh tone will not un-do your CMS calibration, it can improve it only since the average Caucasian skin tone resides well away from any grey scale, or primary/secondary colors. The cube image below shows a standard grey scale and primary RGB calibration, with skin tone added to show its approximate location.

Roland.Online likes this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
post #11232 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 12:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,416
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3273 Post(s)
Liked: 4056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland.Online View Post
Hi again

I've just done a calibration of my Samsung UE40ES7000, latest results here.

I'd like to explore a tweaking the gamut at 75% saturations using CMS controls, but I have no idea how to go about it.

1. when "REC 709 (75%/75%)" color space is selected, how does this affect any existing measures, targets or dEs?

Also, I understand why the patterns use 75% saturation, but unclear why also 75% amplitude - what's the thinking behind that amplitude; why not 100%?
The display internal CMS controls have 1-Point per Primary (RGB) and Secondary (CMY) Colors to calibrate the whole gamut, so you have to find out which will be that one point you will use as pattern to handle better the whole gamut.

Lets say you have 1-Point grayscale and you want to calibrate using 10-Point Grayscale patterns, you have to find out what pattern you will use which will provide you better overall performance.

If you will use 100%, then mid and low end will be very off, if you use 50% then the mid range will be good and the both ends will be off.

Think that 75% Luminance of a color with gamma 2.2 for example has the half luminance of the 100% Luminance of a color, so when you calibrate using 75% patterns you have better balance of the whole colorchannel, but this works to some display and don't work to others.

Using 100% Saturation/100% Luminance level, you are calibrating only the edge of the gamut (max saturation level) colors that not commonly used in movies, but some display are calibrated better using these patterns.

Unless you perform your own tests, nothing is clear....each display is different.

For more details see there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post56663808
Roland.Online likes this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
post #11233 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 01:28 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,416
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3273 Post(s)
Liked: 4056
Quote:
Originally Posted by guida74 View Post
Perhaps someone can shed some light on my recent attempt to calibrate my JVC X35 projector.

I purchased a brand-new OEM i1D3 and have taken measurements both facing the screen (telephoto mode) and facing the projector (ambient mode) with extremely close readings for xyY. I have also used the AVS HD 709 disc as well as the internal pattern generator in HCFR with like readings also.
Hi, use Display Type: Projector, Reading Type: Display (Telephoto selection is for ColorMunki Spectro users, i1Display PRO don't support that mode). The ideal meter placement is by facing the projector screen, when the meter is matching the same angle you have from your sitting position eye's height towards to the center of the screen, for more details see at the mid-end of that post: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57368096

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
post #11234 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 01:45 PM
Member
 
guida74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, use Display Type: Projector, Reading Type: Display (Telephoto selection is for ColorMunki Spectro users, i1Display PRO don't support that mode). The ideal meter placement is by facing the projector screen, when the meter is matching the same angle you have from your sitting position eye's height towards to the center of the screen, for more details see at the mid-end of that post: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57368096
Hi Ted,

I have taken measurements facing the screen (4" to 6") angled upwards so that sensor is not reading it's shadow and obtained the same results using Display Type: Projector, Reading Type: Display. Are you not supposed to position the sensor so that it obtains the highest Y value before taking measurements?

In the link you referred to the person positioned their meter 6 feet from the screen? I thought the intent was to be as close to the screen without reading the shadow of the sensor.

Last edited by guida74; 01-04-2019 at 01:52 PM.
guida74 is offline  
post #11235 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 01:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,416
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3273 Post(s)
Liked: 4056
Quote:
Originally Posted by guida74 View Post
I have taken measurements facing the screen (4" to 6") angled upwards so that sensor is not reading it's shadow and obtained the same results using Display Type: Projector, Reading Type: Display. Are you not supposed to position the sensor so that it obtains the highest Y value before taking measurements?
To match the same angle as you watch is most important, and when you use window patterns you meter FOV to be inside the measuring area.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
post #11236 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 01:58 PM
Member
 
guida74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
To match the same angle as you watch is most important, and when you use window patterns you meter FOV to be inside the measuring area.
Hi Ted,

So you think that my meter position is the reason why I am getting the excessive green push?

So I should be using window patterns not full fields at say 12'-0" distance which is my seating position?

What is "FOV"? Field of View?
guida74 is offline  
post #11237 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 02:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,416
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3273 Post(s)
Liked: 4056
Quote:
Originally Posted by guida74 View Post
Hi Ted,

So you think that my meter position is the reason why I am getting the excessive green push?

So I should be using window patterns not full fields at say 12'-0" distance which is my seating position?

What is "FOV"? Field of View?
FOV is Field of View, the area of your meter optics see, the 'virtual circle'.

The projection screen reflects differently the light when you will measure with different angles, the same is happening with your eyes. For the green push, it can be responsible large adjustments of RGB balance controls, or colorimeter accurancy issue measuring the specific projector (which can be improved by creating a meter correction table matrix using a spectro, if you can rent, buy or hire a pro for meter profiling only)

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
post #11238 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 02:44 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Is it normal for HDR grayscale ramps to look very compressed after you've had to make large adjustments to get Y to match Y targets? On the display's factory setting's it's a fairly consistent gradient but after calibration it had large light and dark areas with most of the grays squished into a small range in the middle.
mondayyyyy is offline  
post #11239 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 02:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
jowicrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Posts: 903
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 704 Post(s)
Liked: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, use gamma 2.4.

Since you are using a Dell monitor, its not having parametric RGB balance controls like consumer TV's are equipped.

Since these results you post are the best you can do using your limited display controls, you can continue by installing i1Profiler or DisplayCAL to calibrate your VCGT (VideoCardGammaTable, which is multiple point of RGB Balance/Gamma, 1D LUT), so your gamma will be calibrated perfectly using that procedure and your RGB balance also.
Tried to get the basics as good as possible with rgb gain/offset and rgbcmy hue & saturation controls, and i1profiler had a go as well, i'm pretty pleased with the result!
Next on the menu is my Pioneer Kuro (Elite) 600M... that one was professionally calibrated a few years ago, so i guess it will need some tuning...

Arcam AVR850 • Pioneer KURO KRP-600M • KEF Reference Model 4/2/200c •• Velodyne DD15 •• HDI Dune 4K Solo • Logitech Squeezebox Radio/Duet • Wyrewizard Dreamcaster & Spellbinder (by Nordost) • JVC D-ILA-X7500 • HDFury Vertex
jowicrt is offline  
post #11240 of 12072 Old 01-04-2019, 02:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,951
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4885 Post(s)
Liked: 1849
Quote:
Originally Posted by mondayyyyy View Post
Is it normal for HDR grayscale ramps to look very compressed after you've had to make large adjustments to get Y to match Y targets? On the display's factory setting's it's a fairly consistent gradient but after calibration it had large light and dark areas with most of the grays squished into a small range in the middle.
The ST2084 curve is highly non-linear - 100 nit at 50% input, 1000 nits at 75%, 4000 nits at 90%, 10,000 nits at 100%. Tone mapping compresses the top end but below 60% things are not compressed.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #11241 of 12072 Old 01-05-2019, 11:29 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Hi,
I have a problem with my new HDR monitor connected to my PC. Until I was using classic sRGB SDR panel, everything with HCFR seemed easy and consistent.
Display and Windows 10 are set properly, when I'm launching HDR game or HDR movie, there is clear HDR indicator at the top right of the screen.
When measuring white point with HCFR Automatic generator, I'm only getting around 370 nits (255:255:255), but if I play calibration pattern with C940 value, then I'm getting over 500 nits. I believe I have tried every HCFR checkbox and still not getting full HDR output from its generator. Obviously in "Display image paramters" the "Enable HDR10" checkbox is ticked, but there is no difference in measured light output.

Is there an option to automatically generate 10-bit HDR patterns via HCFR? Thanks!
ginger88 is offline  
post #11242 of 12072 Old 01-05-2019, 11:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,951
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4885 Post(s)
Liked: 1849
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginger88 View Post
When measuring white point with HCFR Automatic generator, I'm only getting around 370 nits (255:255:255), but if I play calibration pattern with C940 value, then I'm getting over 500 nits.
Are the patterns the same size from the two sources? Also, have you tried using full range for the HCFR internal generators?
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #11243 of 12072 Old 01-05-2019, 11:55 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Are the patterns the same size from the two sources? Also, have you tried using full range for the HCFR internal generators?
Hi Dominic.
Yes, both are 10% size. Also I have tried both 0-255 and 16-235 ranges.
In fact same thing happens with my LG B8, but I never connect my PC to it, so I made calibration with MP4 files played via my BR player. I believe it proves that it's not the case with my PC display, but HCFR.
ginger88 is offline  
post #11244 of 12072 Old 01-05-2019, 12:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,951
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4885 Post(s)
Liked: 1849
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginger88 View Post
Also I have tried both 0-255 and 16-235 ranges.
Both gave you the same nits?

Does the Master MaxL make any difference?

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-05-2019 at 12:25 PM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #11245 of 12072 Old 01-06-2019, 01:36 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremor View Post
I'd like to calibrate a Samsung UE43NU7400 with an i1Display Pro but I don't know which display type I should choose. For my computer monitors I used the DisplaySpecifications website where it listed "W-LED". But for the TV it only lists "Edge-LED" as backlight type (see https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/5a1f125f) and that doesn't match any type in HCFR.
The TV should have a wide color gamut (called "Dynamic Crystal Colour" by Samsung). What's also complicating the matter is that it seems like Samsung ships this TV with both a VA and an IPS panel.

Anyone an idea which display type would be the correct one?
In case anyone has the same question, it seems like the "RG Phosphor" display type is the correct one.


I have a new question about greyscale calibration with HCFR:
Using 2 point and 20 point settings I could get a quite good greyscale for everything above 10% grey. And all those steps also only needed small adjustments. But for 5% and 10% grey I can't get blue down enough. Even at -50, which is the maximum the TV can do, blue is still at 125% (5% grey) and 110% (10% grey) without gamma.
Should I leave those two steps at -50 blue so that it gets as good as possible? Or would it be better to just ignore those steps because such huge changes could have other bad effects?
cremor is offline  
post #11246 of 12072 Old 01-06-2019, 12:49 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Hi

Could someone please post LC-60LE960X calibration settings if they have them?


I am a total amateur when it comes to TV calibration, and would really appreciate your help.



Thanks
gandalfnz is offline  
post #11247 of 12072 Old 01-07-2019, 05:42 AM
Newbie
 
dutchflea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Question

Guys, perhaps you can help me out.

I keep having some issues with gamma calibration of my tv using HCFR with a Chromecast as pattern generator. Despite my efforts somehow the results differ when I use the automatic measurement of greyscale & gamma (F2 'run greyscale') vs a manual routine (by clicking the 5, 10 etc cells and pressing "measure" every time) with the exact same settings. Below the details.

Pattern generator: Chromecast 3 connected via HDMI2
Meter: i1 Display Pro (latest version) with display type WRGB OLED (LG B7 2017)

TV: LG C8 OLED
TV service menu: TPC (ASBL) off
TV settings: ISF Expert dark mode, BT.1886 gamma, things like energy saving, eye comfort, motion eye care all off

HCFR settings:
20-step greyscale, BT.1886 gamma
10% window pattern, latency 300ms
delta E CIE2000 with absolute Y w/gamma

When I perform a manual 20-point greyscale measurement (which takes me about 100 seconds) the result looks like this:


If after that I immediately perform the same measurement with the exact same settings in automatic mode (60 seconds) the result is different, with a distinct stepping pattern. What you see is that output is going down in 4 steps and then shoots up again in 1 step (f.e. IRE 65 -90). As you can see this is a repetitive pattern.


Here is the result in one picture, with the solid yellow line being the auto mode and the dotted yellow line the manual mode:



Measurement data with the xyY values are available in the attachments for reference.

This process is very repeatable: every time I perform a manual measurement the result is different from the automatic mode with the latter showing that stepping pattern.

I enabled the beep with every measurement so I can clearly see that the pattern is already present on the tv some time before the measurement starts. So no issues there.

I also did a measurement using my pc connected via HDMI to rule out any problem with the chromecast, and there too the same stepping pattern is visible in auto mode.

The ONLY difference I can think of is that in manual mode the chromecast returns to its opening screen shortly between each measurement, while in auto mode the windows are shown without interruption. I tend to think the manual mode is the most correct one, since in this mode the picture is reset in between every measurement and the pixels are heating up less in the process of measuring increasing brightness. I noticed that due to pixel heating the brightness is going up the longer you leave a pattern on the screen, so especially in the higher IRE range it is better to perform measurements quickly and then return to a black or dark grey screen.

It seems as if somehow something does not reset itself correctly in auto mode, although I went through the trouble of disabling every related setting in the normal and service menu of the tv.
I even tried disabling any possible output limiter by pressing the SETTINGS or VOLUME button of the tv at every single measurement step of the auto mode, to prevent any brightness limiter kicking in. But as could be expected in a total measurement time of less than 60 seconds, this did not make a difference.

Does anyone know what is going on here? Of course I would like to rely on auto mode but I can't since the results do not seem correct. You could argue that the result in auto mode is still valid since the differences are small and near gamma 2.4, but I think this stepping should not occur.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	hcfr-cc-auto.jpg
Views:	23
Size:	580.1 KB
ID:	2507122   Click image for larger version

Name:	hcfr-cc-manual.jpg
Views:	23
Size:	570.4 KB
ID:	2507124   Click image for larger version

Name:	hcfr-cc-manual-vs-auto.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	562.1 KB
ID:	2507126  
mo949 likes this.
dutchflea is offline  
post #11248 of 12072 Old 01-08-2019, 12:12 AM
Newbie
 
dutchflea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 4
To follow up on my previous post: perhaps someone is willing to do a regular greyscale run on his tv and followed by a manual greyscale measurement. A LG 2018 OLED would be best. I am still trying to figure out where the problem is, I suspect something in the tv but theoretically it could also be in HCFR. I think I can rule out the chromecast since the results are the same with the pc as pattern generator.
dutchflea is offline  
post #11249 of 12072 Old 01-08-2019, 12:34 AM
Member
 
northrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Finland
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by guida74 View Post
The original bulb is nearing 1,200 hrs. and running multiple greyscale sweeps for 6500K, 7000K, 7500K is revealing a green push which is linear across 10% to 100% IRE. I had to reduce the green gain to -39 (is this normal?) to achieve R=G=B, red is the weakest colour and blue is extremely high in the lower IRE range and at 100%.

I have attached my post calibration file for reference but I can’t figure out why there is so much blue at 10% IRE, I tried putting up the 10% white field and reducing blue and it doesn’t respond to the gamma controls. Should I start at the higher IRE’s and work my way down or it doesn’t matter?
Could the green push and excessive blue at 0% & 100% be a result of the aging bulb? Any comments/ suggestions on how to calibrate the gamma would be sincerely appreciated.

Hi. My x35 was also pushing green with default settings. Are these measurements taken from the screen or straight from projector because max luminance is quite high at 77 ftL considering the lamp is 1200 h old? Also the measured gamma is way off at 1.79 so there are big luminance errors all around (picture: compare Y targets against measured Y).


In my case I´ve chosen to sacrifice the RGB balance of 100 % luminance and concentrated getting grey scale from 0-95 % as good as possible. I have calibrated the 1:1.85 aspect ratio picture using only the adjustable gamma points. I use the same gamma (preset 2.6) for 1:2.35 AR but use also 2 point grey scale adjustment to get it right because RGB balance changes when picture is zoomed bigger.


You could measure different gamma presets (all settings default) to find out which one is closest to your target 2.3. Then measure different color temperature presets to find out if any of them has an acceptable RGB balance at 90 or 95 % luminance and use that preset as a base for further adjustments. Then use the adjustable gamma points to calibrate grey scale. Especially at the dark end with 5, 10, 15 % point you have to check if they interact with each other. Then fine tune gamma (Y values) with white point adjustment. You could also lower the contrast to make 100 % luminance better if there is still enough brightness measured from the screen ( Y 12-16 ftL).


10 % point not responding to adjustment seems weird. In my case every adjustment click is detected by the meter. I think when bulb ages it looses red color the most so excessive blue & green at 100 % may result from that. Lowering contrast may help with this.


There is also a picture of my gamma adjustment. As you see they are quite warped near black and white.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	JVC.jpg
Views:	31
Size:	358.1 KB
ID:	2507552   Click image for larger version

Name:	JVC gamma.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	169.1 KB
ID:	2507554  

LG OLED 55B6V, Finnsat FST03PVR, Toshiba 1T HDD, Genelec 6010B, BK XLS200-DF MK2
JVC DLA-X35BE, PS3, Apple TV3, Yamaha RX-V383, Tannoy Mercury F2, Tannoy Mercury F1, BK Monolith
northrob is offline  
post #11250 of 12072 Old 01-08-2019, 12:40 AM
Member
 
northrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Finland
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchflea View Post
I am still trying to figure out where the problem is, I suspect something in the tv but theoretically it could also be in HCFR. I think I can rule out the chromecast since the results are the same with the pc as pattern generator.
It might be that your pc´s HDMI output is not bit perfect.

LG OLED 55B6V, Finnsat FST03PVR, Toshiba 1T HDD, Genelec 6010B, BK XLS200-DF MK2
JVC DLA-X35BE, PS3, Apple TV3, Yamaha RX-V383, Tannoy Mercury F2, Tannoy Mercury F1, BK Monolith
northrob is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off