HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 381 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11401 of 12074 Old 02-22-2019, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaric View Post
However i've also noticed and RGBYMC setting in advanced with Hue/Saturation/Brightness controls. I believe this is to correct the primaries and secondaries. I had a bit of a search and there is a quick calman video about them moving things along the cie chart, though it's pretty small to see in HCFR.
The Target window is essentially a zoomed in view of the CIE.

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So far i've tried moving the sliders whilst in continuous mode viewing a colour, trying to get the lowest dela E for Hue/Saturation
"Delta E" includes the Brightness component of the error. Even though the objective is indeed to minimize delta E, adjusting CMS is easier if you know whether the error is primarily in Hue, Saturation or Brightness (they do interact)

HCFR does not display the Hue and Saturation errors separately. However, for Red delta-x (horizontal error in the CIE diagram) corresponds essentially to Saturation error, and delta-y to Hue error. For Green it's the other way round. "delta xy" shows the combined error in Hue/Saturation.

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and trying to balance out the Y target for brightness.
I find it more convenient to look at "delta-L" for the brightness error.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-22-2019 at 09:14 AM.
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post #11402 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 06:23 AM
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I am going to take some out of box measurements on my new projector and had a couple quick questions since I haven't touched anything outside of 709 yet.

Is there a measurement that will give me the percentage of p3 coverage?I want to see where I fall and if I need to use the filter.

Best setting when taking P3 measurements on Nvidia, does hcfr handle changing it or do I need to default it to 12bit color in the Nvidia control panel?
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post #11403 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
I am going to take some out of box measurements on my new projector and had a couple quick questions since I haven't touched anything outside of 709 yet.

Is there a measurement that will give me the percentage of p3 coverage?I want to see where I fall and if I need to use the filter.
HCFR does not provide any “percent coverage” as such, but you can see in the CIE diagram how close the primary colours are to the P3 target, with and without the filter.

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Best setting when taking P3 measurements on Nvidia, does hcfr handle changing it or do I need to default it to 12bit color in the Nvidia control panel?
You can just manually change the projector Picture Mode one Colour Profile to do the measurements.
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post #11404 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
HCFR does not provide any “percent coverage” as such, but you can see in the CIE diagram how close the primary colours are to the P3 target, with and without the filter.





You can just manually change the projector Picture Mode one Colour Profile to do the measurements.
Thanks Dominic, so it doesn't matter what the source setting on the computer is as far as color bit depth 8 vs 12? Always confuses me that everything hdr is listed as 10bit or higher so wasn't sure if it mattered.
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post #11405 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Thanks Dominic, so it doesn't matter what the source setting on the computer is as far as color bit depth 8 vs 12? Always confuses me that everything hdr is listed as 10bit or higher so wasn't sure if it mattered.
It doesn’t really matter as long as the displayed/measured value and reference value are both based on the bit depth
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post #11406 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 11:49 AM
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Sorry if this already asked, but will there be a Spyder X compatiblity?
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post #11407 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by RioBar4U View Post
Sorry if this already asked, but will there be a Spyder X compatiblity?
HCFR uses ArgyllCMS so support for the Spyder X has to be added there first.
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post #11408 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
HCFR does not display the Hue and Saturation errors separately.
Do we not get that information from the HSL bars on the bottom left, assuming you've ticked the option show HSL vs. RGB for colors?
I've always operated with first bar = hue, second = saturation, and third = lightness.
Is that incorrect?

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post #11409 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CFC View Post
Do we not get that information from the HSL bars on the bottom left, assuming you've ticked the option show HSL vs. RGB for colors?
I've always operated with first bar = hue, second = saturation, and third = lightness.
Is that incorrect?

CFC
In theory, yes, but it doesn't work properly. See the attached where the only error is in L (+11%) and yet the Saturation bar shows 152.7%.

Note that when dE is 0 then HSL do all show 100%.
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post #11410 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 02:07 PM
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Gray scale balance w/o gamma?

Can someone please explain the reason for having the option to display gray scale balance with or without gamma in HCFR? Attached are two gray scale balance graphs for the same measurement data. One is with gamma, the other without. With gamma, there is a prominent peak at 75% white and dip at 85% as well as drop in RGB levels <20%. Without gamma these peaks, dips and drops are gone.

I've always used the with gamma chart to calibrate my TV for SDR. The data I'm using here is from an HDR10 calibration. I'm not sure if that's relevant or not but I'd like to understand if I need to adjust the 75%, 85% and low IRE RGB gains as the first chart suggests, or are my current calibrations actually pretty good, as the second chart shows.

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post #11411 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
In theory, yes, but it doesn't work properly. See the attached where the only error is in L (+11%) and yet the Saturation bar shows 152.7%.

Note that when dE is 0 then HSL do all show 100%.
Interesting. I'll need to pay closer attention now.
Is there an easy way to determine the correct x and y values at different saturation levels? Know them for 100%. Do you have a table for maybe 75, 50 and 25?
It is pretty simple to visualize for red and cyan, likewise green and magenta. Blue and yellow will always be a combination of moving in both directions when adjusting hue or saturation.

In the case where the CMS controls provide RGB, are the bars reliable then?

Thanks for the tip,
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post #11412 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 02:24 PM
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I'm trying to get my JETI 1201 to work with HCFR - It sees the 1201 fine, but every time I try I get an error message that says "config argument" in a little message box titled "init inst" and then HCFR exits. Displaycal also doesn't work, so it seems Argyll related, but as yet not found any good info. Is there some tweak I'm missing or something that commonly trips this up?
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post #11413 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Can someone please explain the reason for having the option to display gray scale balance with or without gamma in HCFR? Attached are two gray scale balance graphs for the same measurement data. One is with gamma, the other without. With gamma, there is a prominent peak at 75% white and dip at 85% as well as drop in RGB levels <20%. Without gamma these peaks, dips and drops are gone.

I've always used the with gamma chart to calibrate my TV for SDR. The data I'm using here is from an HDR10 calibration. I'm not sure if that's relevant or not but I'd like to understand if I need to adjust the 75%, 85% and low IRE RGB gains as the first chart suggests, or are my current calibrations actually pretty good, as the second chart shows.

-phil
"With" gamma considers the luminance level for the delta-E calculation. "Without" doesn't.
Depending on your workflow, you can choose to first adjust "without" to ensure R,G and B are at the same level, and then adjust for the correct gamma together.
Some TV sets have individual point gamma adjustments, where you could use the same strategy of adjusting R,G and B for correct levels, then review "with" gamma to properly dial it in.
The second chart shows that your colors are balanced but, when you view "with" gamma, you'll notice that you have too much luminance for your chosen gamma. This is true for SDR, but the concept of gamma is not quite the same in HDR. I'll defer to the more experienced folks to chime in on that one.

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post #11414 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by CFC View Post
The second chart shows that your colors are balanced but, when you view "with" gamma, you'll notice that you have too much luminance for your chosen gamma. This is true for SDR, but the concept of gamma is not quite the same in HDR. I'll defer to the more experienced folks to chime in on that one.

CFC
Thank you. You bring up a good point about the meaning of Gamma for HDR measurements. That was something that caught my attention but I forgot to ask about in my previous post. I'm sure the nomenclature with and without gamma are just vestiges from HCFR supported Rec2020 measurements but it does seem that the menu options need to be updated to reflect that Gamma doesn't have value in an HDR world.

You said I have "too much luminance for your chosen gamma". Do you mean at the 75% grayscale level specifically, or is that a more broad statement?

Am I correct in inferring that a proper calibratoin should use gamma for the deltaE and grayscale balance measurement?

-phil

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post #11415 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFC View Post
"With" gamma considers the luminance level for the delta-E calculation. "Without" doesn't.
Depending on your workflow, you can choose to first adjust "without" to ensure R,G and B are at the same level, and then adjust for the correct gamma together.
Some TV sets have individual point gamma adjustments, where you could use the same strategy of adjusting R,G and B for correct levels, then review "with" gamma to properly dial it in.
The second chart shows that your colors are balanced but, when you view "with" gamma, you'll notice that you have too much luminance for your chosen gamma. This is true for SDR, but the concept of gamma is not quite the same in HDR. I'll defer to the more experienced folks to chime in on that one.

CFC
The easiest way is to use “w/o gamma” when adjusting the 2-pt controls, and then switch to w/ gamma when adjusting the 10/20 pts.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-27-2019 at 03:03 PM.
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post #11416 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Thank you. You bring up a good point about the meaning of Gamma for HDR measurements. That was something that caught my attention but I forgot to ask about in my previous post. I'm sure the nomenclature with and without gamma are just vestiges from HCFR supported Rec2020 measurements but it does seem that the menu options need to be updated to reflect that Gamma doesn't have value in an HDR world.

You said I have "too much luminance for your chosen gamma". Do you mean at the 75% grayscale level specifically, or is that a more broad statement?

Am I correct in inferring that a proper calibratoin should use gamma for the deltaE and grayscale balance measurement?

-phil
Yes, the hump at 75% would indicate you have too much luminance, and the dips not enough - for SDR readings.
For your final result, yes, you should use gamma.
Just wanted to highlight that there are reasons why you could choose not to use it in certain instances as part of your overall workflow, to explain why it's an option.

I'm still struggling to understand HDR calibration, but my understanding is that the luminance levels are more or less fixed from 0 to about 60 IRE, after which, depending on the set's max luminance level, there's a roll off which follows a given EOTF (ST2084?).

Good luck. This if fun.

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post #11417 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Can someone please explain the reason for having the option to display gray scale balance with or without gamma in HCFR? Attached are two gray scale balance graphs for the same measurement data. One is with gamma, the other without. With gamma, there is a prominent peak at 75% white and dip at 85% as well as drop in RGB levels <20%. Without gamma these peaks, dips and drops are gone.
  • When using “w/o gamma” the RGB curves are relative, so as long as R=G=B HCFR will show 100% for all colours, even if they are all higher or lower than the target value.
  • When using “with gamma”, the RGB curves are shown as percentages of the target value, so 100% for RGB means the luminance as well as the colour temperature are correct.
Note that when the gamma is adjusted correctly there will be no difference between the readings with the two options.

For HDR the peaks and dips over 60% input are not detrimental. With most TVs the Reference Curve itself already departs from the ST.2084 PQ EOTF due to Tone Mapping, so peaks and dips in the RGB curve (with gamma) simply show that you’re following a somewhat different roll-off curve. Below 60% input, however, you should aim for 100% RGB, just like SDR. A 30% value at 5% input would lead to severe black crash.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-28-2019 at 07:25 AM.
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post #11418 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I'm trying to get my JETI 1201 to work with HCFR - It sees the 1201 fine, but every time I try I get an error message that says "config argument" in a little message box titled "init inst" and then HCFR exits. Displaycal also doesn't work, so it seems Argyll related, but as yet not found any good info. Is there some tweak I'm missing or something that commonly trips this up?
Argyll V2.0.1 included a fix for the JETI 1201. What version did you try it with ?

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post #11419 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
HCFR uses ArgyllCMS so support for the Spyder X has to be added there first.
...And is there any news about that?
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post #11420 of 12074 Old 02-27-2019, 11:56 PM
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...And is there any news about that?
I'm looking into it. Being a completely different hardware design, the USB API is also rather different to the previous Spyders, so it could take a little time.

Of course there is still the obstacle of HCFR being updated to the latest ArgyllCMS drivers...
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post #11421 of 12074 Old 02-28-2019, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by gwgill View Post
Argyll V2.0.1 included a fix for the JETI 1201. What version did you try it with ?
In the case of displayCAL I was using 1.9.2 on this machine I believe, will try later with the updated version.

In the case of HCFR I was using whatever is built in to 3.5.1.4. Is it possible for a user to update which version of Argyll is used by HCFR? Edit: I guess from the previous message in this thread that this is not straightforward...
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post #11422 of 12074 Old 02-28-2019, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Is it possible for a user to update which version of Argyll is used by HCFR?
Yes, there is a fair chance it will just work (i.e. I don't often break tool syntax between versions.)
Of course you could just try the ArgyllCMS tools directly (i.e. spotread).
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Edit: I guess from the previous message in this thread that this is not straightforward...
DisplayCAL uses the release ArgyllCMS binaries. HCFR compiles the ArgllCMS instrument driver source code.
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post #11423 of 12074 Old 02-28-2019, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
For HDR the peaks and dips over 60% input are not detrimental. With most TVs the Reference Curve itself is already departing from the ST.2084 PQ EOTF, peaks and dips in the RGB curve (with gamma) simply show that you’re following a somewhat different roll-off curve. Below 60% input, however, you should aim for 100% RGB, just like SDR. A 30% value at 5% input would lead to severe black crash.
Dominic,

Thank you for the explanation. Now I'm concerned about the low IRE roll off that I'm measuring (from ~0% at 20% greyscale to -20% at 5% greyscale). I already have the 5% RGB gains set near the maximum possible so I don't think I have the ability to adjust them any more. Perhaps this is the best that my Vizio PQ65 can do.

Can the roll off be due to me incorrectly using HCFR? HCFR reports a 0% Y of 0.000, but I know this isn't correct as I can see light from the TV when the 0% pattern is used. I assume this is because my iD3 meter isn't sensitive enough to read the low light output. For SDR calibration I use the Override Black setting in the Preferences->References dialog to set the 0% Y to 0.010. Is there any way to override the 0% reading for HDR EOTF calculations?

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post #11424 of 12074 Old 02-28-2019, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Now I'm concerned about the low IRE roll off that I'm measuring (from ~0% at 20% greyscale to -20% at 5% greyscale). I already have the 5% RGB gains set near the maximum possible so I don't think I have the ability to adjust them any more. Perhaps this is the best that my Vizio PQ65 can do.
That is a little surprising, as there shouldn't be any difficulties for the manufacturer to follow the PQ curve in the low end. Is Local Dimming turned off during your measurements?

With some TVs the Brightness control can increase the low end response without lifting the black above the current level.

Quote:
Can the roll off be due to me incorrectly using HCFR? HCFR reports a 0% Y of 0.000, but I know this isn't correct as I can see light from the TV when the 0% pattern is used. I assume this is because my iD3 meter isn't sensitive enough to read the low light output.
You can run a “Near Black” sweep in SDR mode to check the response of the meter. My Rev A i1D3 responds down to about 0.002 nits.

Quote:
For SDR calibration I use the Override Black setting in the Preferences->References dialog to set the 0% Y to 0.010. Is there any way to override the 0% reading for HDR EOTF calculations?
For HDR the MasterMinL setting has a similar effect. Note, however, that will make your low end measurements look even worse, as it will raise the Reference Levels so the same nits readings will correspond to even lower percentages of the reference readings.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-28-2019 at 08:17 AM.
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I am going through each picture mode on my projector and I think I have 2 of 3 source types correct, but not 1.
For SDR - good, everything measures correctly
For HDR using MadVR tonemapping to SDR- I set BT2020/p3 , gamma power 2.2, D65 in HCFR then HDR10 with power law 2.2 in the JVC <-- Measurements look correct

For HDR from an HDR source that triggers the built in profile, this is where I am having issues. I set HCFR to BT2020 (tried normal and p3), SMPTE2084, left the dafaults at 4000 for the metadata. Enabled the HDR flag to kick the projector over. The grayscale measures fine, all around 3 or less, but my primaries and secondaries are way off, so not sure what setting I am missing. I am using HDR color , HDR10 temp, and HDR(PQ) gamma in the JVC.
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
For HDR from an HDR source that triggers the built in profile, this is where I am having issues. I set HCFR to BT2020 (tried normal and p3), SMPTE2084, left the dafaults at 4000 for the metadata. Enabled the HDR flag to kick the projector over. The grayscale measures fine, all around 3 or less, but my primaries and secondaries are way off, so not sure what setting I am missing. I am using HDR color , HDR10 temp, and HDR(PQ) gamma in the JVC.
You should be using Rec2020/P3 as the colour space, not Normal, BT2020 or P3.
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post #11427 of 12074 Old 02-28-2019, 09:05 AM
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You should be using Rec2020/P3 as the colour space, not Normal, BT2020 or P3.
Yeah I tried Rec2020/P3 and had the same issue (I basically tried all the 2020 variations lol). These are the settings I just tried, but same issue.


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post #11428 of 12074 Old 02-28-2019, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Yeah I tried Rec2020/P3 and had the same issue (I basically tried all the 2020 variations lol). These are the settings I just tried, but same issue.
What are the readings when using Rec2020/P3? You can post the chc file here.
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post #11429 of 12074 Old 02-28-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
What are the readings when using Rec2020/P3? You can post the chc file here.
Like 30 or higher Delta e. I must be setting something wrong projector side or in hcfr . I am very accurate in all the non hdr flagged modes including madvr tonemapped to sdr.

When I play games in the hdr flagged mode though colors look fine, I played the game for 2 weeks in sdr on my old projector so I have general idea of what it looked like.
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post #11430 of 12074 Old 02-28-2019, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
Like 30 or higher Delta e. I must be setting something wrong projector side or in hcfr . I am very accurate in all the non hdr flagged modes including madvr tonemapped to sdr.

When I play games in the hdr flagged mode though colors look fine, I played the game for 2 weeks in sdr on my old projector so I have general idea of what it looked like.
Will need more info to troubleshoot. I suspect your “The grayscale measures fine, all around 3 or less” is when you measure “w/o gamma”.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-28-2019 at 09:36 AM.
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