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post #11461 of 11718 Old 04-15-2019, 08:29 PM
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Finding 2.2 Gamma

How do you get 2.2 gamma or close to it on an Epson 5040UB ? I ran an 11 point grayscale test and fell from 1.8 all the way down to 1.6
The current gamma setting on the Epson is number 2. It's menu is setup as -2,-1,0,1,2
Any idea would be of great help. Thanks
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post #11462 of 11718 Old 04-15-2019, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cinema-Scope) View Post
How do you get 2.2 gamma or close to it on an Epson 5040UB ? I ran an 11 point grayscale test and fell from 1.8 all the way down to 1.6
The current gamma setting on the Epson is number 2. It's menu is setup as -2,-1,0,1,2
Any idea would be of great help. Thanks
Are you using the internal patterns? If so, you need first check that the range setting is correct (see recent posts).

If you're using disc patterns, make sure the player is in Standard mode (not modifying the gamma).

IIRC, the Epson gamma settings vary depend on the picture mode. Some use relative scales like you listed, others use actual gamma values such as 2.2 or 2.4.
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post #11463 of 11718 Old 04-15-2019, 10:07 PM
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As you can see here, everything seems okay for the most part, but gamma is really off. I had to use -2 on the epson's gamma setting to start off with a high arc, then it just rapidly falls down.
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post #11464 of 11718 Old 04-15-2019, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Are you using the internal patterns? If so, you need first check that the range setting is correct (see recent posts).

If you're using disc patterns, make sure the player is in Standard mode (not modifying the gamma).

IIRC, the Epson gamma settings vary depend on the picture mode. Some use relative scales like you listed, others use actual gamma values such as 2.2 or 2.4.

I'm using Rec 709 patterns from the HD basics disc. It contains IRE patterns 0 - 100.
Sony UHD UBP-UX80.
Sony has some pretty basic settings, so I can't adjust any gamma from there.

On the Epson 5040UB I have Cinema Bright mode. High power, auto iris is off. brightness 52, contrast 48
gamma is -2, color temp is 5 (6500K)
Screen is curved, color is silver, and it has very small pores. Unsure of the brand. 88" tall, 206" wide.
Projector is placed roughly 28ft away from the screen.

I'm using a xrite colormunki display meter.
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post #11465 of 11718 Old 04-16-2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cinema-Scope) View Post
I'm using Rec 709 patterns from the HD basics disc. It contains IRE patterns 0 - 100.
Sony UHD UBP-UX80.
Sony has some pretty basic settings, so I can't adjust any gamma from there.

On the Epson 5040UB I have Cinema Bright mode. High power, auto iris is off. brightness 52, contrast 48
gamma is -2, color temp is 5 (6500K)
Screen is curved, color is silver, and it has very small pores. Unsure of the brand. 88" tall, 206" wide.
Projector is placed roughly 28ft away from the screen.

I'm using a xrite colormunki display meter.
You'll want to change your gray scale targets "with gamma", so that when you adjust the 11-pts you can aim for the correct luminance.
First do a run with the different gamma settings (-2, -1, 0, etc..) to see which one is naturally the closest to the gamma target.

Good luck,
CFC

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post #11466 of 11718 Old 04-16-2019, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFC View Post
You'll want to change your gray scale targets "with gamma", so that when you adjust the 11-pts you can aim for the correct luminance.
First do a run with the different gamma settings (-2, -1, 0, etc..) to see which one is naturally the closest to the gamma target.

Good luck,
CFC
IIRC, the Epson does not have independent RGB controls in the Gaama adjustments screen, so “RGB w/Gamma” will provide no more info than the gamma curve, although some may find it easier to understand.
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post #11467 of 11718 Old 04-16-2019, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
IIRC, the Epson does not have independent RGB controls in the Gaama adjustments screen, so “RGB w/Gamma” will provide no more info than the gamma curve, although some may find it easier to understand.
Understood, but couldn't he still work the 11-pts to meet the targets w/gamma?
Perhaps I misunderstood since he said he ran the 11-pt test, and assumed that he has those available to adjust in the Epson menu.

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post #11468 of 11718 Old 04-16-2019, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cinema-Scope) View Post
I'm using Rec 709 patterns from the HD basics disc. It contains IRE patterns 0 - 100.
Sony UHD UBP-UX80.
Sony has some pretty basic settings, so I can't adjust any gamma from there.

On the Epson 5040UB I have Cinema Bright mode. High power, auto iris is off. brightness 52, contrast 48
gamma is -2, color temp is 5 (6500K)
Screen is curved, color is silver, and it has very small pores. Unsure of the brand. 88" tall, 206" wide.
Projector is placed roughly 28ft away from the screen.

I'm using a xrite colormunki display meter.
Is there a reason that you are using Cinema Bright? Generally "Natural" is a very easy mode to calibrate and it looks great.

I would say that you probably are getting the proper results given your setup. Depending on the room (wall and ceiling colors, ambient light, etc.) and the screen material you can easily get results such as this.

I recommend working through the manual gamma adjustment (adjust via graph). There is no straightforward procedure for this but I can at least tell you how I do it:

1. Calibrate 2-point greyscale using 11-point measurement and CIE2000 de w/gamma
2. Enable live measurement (the green arrow) and click the column corresponding to the 90% measurement values. Then manually choose the corresponding pattern on the AVS disc. You will need to adjust the gamma slider furthest to the right until your Y matches the target Y.
3. Repeat this for each greyscale level while moving left on the gamma slider graph. You will notice that some levels are affected by multiple gamma sliders on the 5040. You will just have to play with it until it is close.
4. After getting your gamma close you should re-do the 2-point greyscale (it should still be very close - at least this is what I have seen on my 6040).
5. Calibrate CMS, if necessary

Calibrating gamma using the graph sliders is a bit tricky at first but you will get it eventually. You should be able to get a nearly flat gamma (I can do it in my imperfect environment at 2.35 - just where I want it).

Remember these tips:
1. Graph sliders move the Y up and down for IRE levels increasing from left to right.
2. They do not correlate perfectly with 10% levels, and the x-axis is not linear (the sliders furthest right affect many levels, the sliders on the left affect less levels - they have more granularity). This gives you more control at the lower end of the IRE scale, which is where gamma is very important
3. Lower gamma = higher Y at a given IRE. Move the sliders down if you want the gamma to go up
4. When you go into the gamma adjust screen on the 5040 the current displayed image is frozen. Changing the pattern will not be reflected on the screen. So choose your IRE pattern before going into the gamma adjustment. This makes things awfully tedious.
5. When you first choose a slider every part of the displayed image that is within its IRE range will blink to indicate that you have found the proper slider(s). This is useful but also annoying. You must start to move a slider to stop this blinking and thus get a proper measurement.
Agenor likes this.

Epson 6040ub
Denon AVR-X3400H + Mirage OMD-5 surrounds
Home-made Hybrid PCB Electrostatic Floorstanding L+R Speakers (with built-in DSP + amps)
Home-made sub with 15" Ultimax woofer, Dayton SA1000 Amp
Sony PS4, Sony UBP-X800, Panasonic DP-UB820

Last edited by jt7272; 04-16-2019 at 08:43 AM.
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post #11469 of 11718 Old 04-16-2019, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt7272 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cinema-Scope) View Post
I'm using Rec 709 patterns from the HD basics disc. It contains IRE patterns 0 - 100.
Sony UHD UBP-UX80.
Sony has some pretty basic settings, so I can't adjust any gamma from there.

On the Epson 5040UB I have Cinema Bright mode. High power, auto iris is off. brightness 52, contrast 48
gamma is -2, color temp is 5 (6500K)
Screen is curved, color is silver, and it has very small pores. Unsure of the brand. 88" tall, 206" wide.
Projector is placed roughly 28ft away from the screen.

I'm using a xrite colormunki display meter.
Is there a reason that you are using Cinema Bright? Generally "Natural" is a very easy mode to calibrate and it looks great.

I would say that you probably are getting the proper results given your setup. Depending on the room (wall and ceiling colors, ambient light, etc.) and the screen material you can easily get results such as this.

I recommend working through the manual gamma adjustment (adjust via graph). There is no straightforward procedure for this but I can at least tell you how I do it:

1. Calibrate 2-point greyscale using 11-point measurement and CIE2000 de w/gamma
2. Enable live measurement (the green arrow) and click the column corresponding to the 90% measurement values. Then manually choose the corresponding pattern on the AVS disc. You will need to adjust the gamma slider furthest to the right until your Y matches the target Y.
3. Repeat this for each greyscale level while moving left on the gamma slider graph. You will notice that some levels are affected by multiple gamma sliders on the 5040. You will just have to play with it until it is close.
4. After getting your gamma close you should re-do the 2-point greyscale (it should still be very close - at least this is what I have seen on my 6040).
5. Calibrate CMS, if necessary

Calibrating gamma using the graph sliders is a bit tricky at first but you will get it eventually. You should be able to get a nearly flat gamma (I can do it in my imperfect environment at 2.35 - just where I want it).

Remember these tips:
1. Graph sliders move the Y up and down for IRE levels increasing from left to right.
2. They do not correlate perfectly with 10% levels, and the x-axis is not linear (the sliders furthest right affect many levels, the sliders on the left affect less levels - they have more granularity). This gives you more control at the lower end of the IRE scale, which is where gamma is very important
3. Lower gamma = higher Y at a given IRE. Move the sliders down if you want the gamma to go up
4. When you go into the gamma adjust screen on the 5040 the current displayed image is frozen. Changing the pattern will not be reflected on the screen. So choose your IRE pattern before going into the gamma adjustment. This makes things awfully tedious.
5. When you first choose a slider every part of the displayed image that is within its IRE range will blink to indicate that you have found the proper slider(s). This is useful but also annoying. You must start to move a slider to stop this blinking and thus get a proper measurement.
Thanks a lot for this. I will try these settings when I get home.
The reason for using bright cinema is because it’s the brightest mode out of the box without producing too much green energy in Dynamic mode.

The screen is large, so I need to find the brightest mode possible. Out of the box, natural looks pretty dark on my screen.
My home theater is dark, no windows. Walls are painted matte grey/blue.
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post #11470 of 11718 Old 04-18-2019, 02:03 AM
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These might seem like dumb questions, but I need to ask.
Please feel free to correct me if my logic is wrong.

I want to calibrate my Epson TW2000 projector.
It is part of my HTPC system, so I want to run the calibration through the whole system i.e computer/receiver/display.
This would mean having the test patterns and HCFR in the computer, displaying on the same screen.
Is this a problem?

I have already initially calibrated my Black and White levels by running "Black Clipping" and "White Clipping" through Kodi/Computer/Receiver/Projector.
I also set the basic Colour and Tint by looking through a Blue filter at the "Flashing Color Bars". All of these patterns are from the AVS HD709's Basic Patterns.
I viewed these patterns through this Kodi/PC/projector chain because Kodi (my video player) is set to Limited (16-235), the GPU to Full (0-255) and the projector to Limited (16-235).
This is the recommended set-up of video levels in the processing chain (https://kodi.wiki/view/Video_levels_and_color_space).

When using HCFR, I would also like to run the test patterns through the same chain.
I guess this means I would not be able to use the internal signal generator as the patterns would not be passing through Kodi.
Would the HDFR test patterns from AVS HD709 be OK, or would madTPG be better?
I can place the required patterns in folders that I would then access using Kodi.
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post #11471 of 11718 Old 04-18-2019, 09:12 AM
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Is everyone else able to resize the windows so that the CIE chart has equal scales for x and y? I don’t have a screen shot handy, but in the background of the CIE chart is a gray grid on a black background. I can never make the cells of this grid square. My CIE charts are always ‘squished flat’.

I seem to remember it did it for me once, so I wonder what I did differently that time?

Windows XP laptop with 1280x800 native resolution, if that has anything to do with it..
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post #11472 of 11718 Old 04-18-2019, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
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Is everyone else able to resize the windows so that the CIE chart has equal scales for x and y? I don’t have a screen shot handy, but in the background of the CIE chart is a gray grid on a black background. I can never make the cells of this grid square. My CIE charts are always ‘squished flat’.

I seem to remember it did it for me once, so I wonder what I did differently that time?

Windows XP laptop with 1280x800 native resolution, if that has anything to do with it..
I don't believe there's any way to change the aspect range of the CIE chart, other than resizing the window itself.
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post #11473 of 11718 Old 04-18-2019, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post
When using HCFR, I would also like to run the test patterns through the same chain.
The best way would be to use madTPG for test patterns, and use madVR as renderer in Kodi.
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post #11474 of 11718 Old 04-18-2019, 09:28 AM
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EDIT

It does have to do with the laptop’s current display resolution. If I choose a different one, such as 1920x1080, I can now drag the corner of the window farther “down” which stretches things vertically more, as desired. Of course with my old laptop, choosing display resolutions that exceed the native resolution of the panel results in the entire OS behaving in a sort of pan-and-scan way, but anyway, it *can* work. What I’m gathering is HCFR has hard coded a certain minimum number of pixels in each dimension below which it won’t scale certain things. 800 pixels top-to-bottom is not enough for it to do what I want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I don't believe there's any way to change the aspect range of the CIE chart, other than resizing the window itself.
Ok, thanks. If I resize the entire HCFR window, it simply cuts off part of the chart in the current calibration file window. There’s a minimum size below which it won’t scale, it just crops, and the x scale is still wider than 1:1. Annoying..

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post #11475 of 11718 Old 04-18-2019, 11:02 AM
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Question !
Should color be calibrated before adjusting gamma to 2.2 ?
And when I say color, I mean the settings for RGB Gain & Offset.


Thanks,
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post #11476 of 11718 Old 04-18-2019, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The best way would be to use madTPG for test patterns, and use madVR as renderer in Kodi.
Thanks.
I should have also mentioned that I am using the MP4 version of AVS HD709.
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post #11477 of 11718 Old 04-18-2019, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cinema-Scope) View Post
Question !
Should color be calibrated before adjusting gamma to 2.2 ?
And when I say color, I mean the settings for RGB Gain & Offset.


Thanks,
Yes, especially for displays that use 10/20pt RGB controls to adjust gamma.
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post #11478 of 11718 Old 04-20-2019, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The best way would be to use madTPG for test patterns, and use madVR as renderer in Kodi.
This approach opens up a whole new can of worms for me, so I'm going to load all the MP4 "ColorHCFR Fields" into Kodi and run them from there (like I did for the Basic Patterns).
This will mean that the patterns and my videos will be running through the same chain.

Problem is that the more I read, the more confused I get.
I obviously want the patterns to be correctly represented e.g. in the Clipping Patterns, BTB and WTW are correctly located in the 0-255 range.
I can set 0-255 or 16-235 in each of Kodi, the GPU and the Projector.
I have read what combinations gives best output and give minimal scaling.
But what combination would display the patterns the way they were meant to be?
i.e. what video range combinations would have the correct bars flashing to allow adjustment?
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post #11479 of 11718 Old 04-21-2019, 12:57 AM
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I am using madVR for a very long time. For years, I followed the madVR instructions to use RGB full (0-255) through the whole signal chain.
After some discussions and a lot of reading I decided to go with ConnecTed's advice.

madVR/Kodi/Player/HCFR = (RGB limited) 16-235
GPU = (RGB full) 0-255
TV/Projector = (RGB limited) 16-235

It is not a question of taste it is visible and easily explained. With 16-235 used on the TV/Projector you have the headroom needed for the digital signal processing. The improvements in picture quality (noise, color etc.) is clearly visible on most setups. We have tested this on JVC projectors, Sony TVs, LG OLED TVs. The difference was remarkable.

The madVR instructions are more suited for PC monitors which mostly do not have any digital signal processing.

But please be aware, that the "normal" desktop will be displayed too dark. If you want to use your PC with your projector or TV for work or playing you would have to define another profile or change the TV/projector setting to 0-255 for that period (the latter would be the best way).

Warm regards,
bejoro

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post #11480 of 11718 Old 04-21-2019, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
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I am using madVR for a very long time. For years, I followed the madVR instructions to use RGB full (0-255) through the whole signal chain.
After some discussions and a lot of reading I decided to go with ConnecTed's advice.

madVR/Kodi/Player/HCFR = (RGB limited) 16-235
GPU = (RGB full) 0-255
TV/Projector = (RGB limited) 16-235

It is not a question of taste it is visible and easily explained. With 16-235 used on the TV/Projector you have the headroom needed for the digital signal processing. The improvements in picture quality (noise, color etc.) is clearly visible on most setups. We have tested this on JVC projectors, Sony TVs, LG OLED TVs. The difference was remarkable.

The madVR instructions are more suited for PC monitors which mostly do not have any digital signal processing.

But please be aware, that the "normal" desktop will be displayed too dark. If you want to use your PC with your projector or TV for work or playing you would have to define another profile or change the TV/projector setting to 0-255 for that period (the latter would be the best way).
I currently have the same setup (Kodi-Limited; GPU-Full; Projector-Limited).
I am happy with the uncalibrated picture.
However, I just wasn't sure whether this setup would effect information the various patterns are displaying during calibration.
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post #11481 of 11718 Old 04-22-2019, 09:59 AM
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You know how every once in a while one person decides he/she wants to take on the project of calibrating a display and then takes over this thread for awhile? Well, it's my turn. I'm not ashamed



Before doing much more than the few measurement runs I've done to get reacquainted with this whole process, I think I should profile my new i1 Display Pro against my actual display using a spectrophotometer.



You used to be able to rent an i1 pro spectro from a place called hippotech but they are gone. I see however that lensrentals.com rents an "i1 studio" (the picture looks a lot like a colormunki to me?) Is it reasonable to expect what they send me will be accurate enough to actually improve *my* accuracy? Or could this be a waste of time?



My plan is to rent a spectro, measure my DLP projector's attempt at a white somewhere near D65 with both the rented spectro and my colorimeter, use HCFR to compare the two and generate an offset matrix, return the spectro, and then force HCFR to use that matrix with my colorimeter every time going forward.


These are the basic steps right?



I will also repeat this for my plasma. I realize I will have to maintain two different offset matrices depending on which display I am measuring going forward.


Am I missing anything?
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post #11482 of 11718 Old 04-23-2019, 01:24 PM
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Hi guys. Novice @ hcfr.

I just got a cheap vizio, and it has a more involved calibration screen. I've been spoiled by displaycal for the most part.

My question is which of the readout values correspond to These settings.

hue saturation brightness, offset.

The only thing I've used before is gains.

https://imgur.com/ytIfIkW

And also, for the 11 point gamma, it seems the hcfr patterning is from 0% to 100%. how do I add a 5% patch.

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post #11483 of 11718 Old 04-24-2019, 11:53 PM
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Newbie questions:-

Trying to calibrate an Epson TW2000 (similar to a 1080UB) projector in my Windows 10 HTPC.
Running the AVS HD709 (MP4) patterns through Kodi(16-235)/GPU(0-255)/AVR/Projector(16-235).
Colorimeter - X-Rite Colormunki Display.
Running the HCFR on a Windows 10 laptop.

Have set up the black and white levels using the clipping patterns in the Basic Patterns.

My main problem is when I run, say Gray Scale, during and after measuring each level, in the window on the left hand side, I can see the RGB columns change, but there is no information in the Data table.
Also using my Gain and Offset sliders in the projector appears to do nothing (with measure running continuously).

Can anyone see what I am doing wrong.

EDIT : I also need some advice on what Argyll settings for my Colormunki. I wasn't too sure what the settings should be (Colormunki 20" from matt white screen).

I should also add that I have not installed any drivers, software for the Colormunki as I understand that HCFR recognises it as a HID device.

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post #11484 of 11718 Old 04-25-2019, 12:09 AM
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Maybe you did not choose your sensor or it was not recogniced/connected and the simulated sensor is active?

Warm regards,
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post #11485 of 11718 Old 04-25-2019, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
Maybe you did not choose your sensor or it was not recogniced/connected and the simulated sensor is active?
I selected my sensor from the selection options.
However, I wasn't sure what to select in the Argyll settings (see edit in my post above).

When I ran all of the gray scale levels of my existing setup, the results were all recorded on the White Scale table. But at that stage I didn't notice if the data was being listed in the left hand lower window.
With the gray scale measuring, the graphs of the different colours were being recorded in the right hand window so the sensor seems to be doing something.

Last edited by Nordo; 04-25-2019 at 02:34 AM.
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post #11486 of 11718 Old 04-25-2019, 06:27 PM
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Can anyone help regarding my problem with data from my Colormunki not being recorded in HCFR?
PLEASE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post
Newbie questions:-

Trying to calibrate an Epson TW2000 (similar to a 1080UB) projector in my Windows 10 HTPC.
Running the AVS HD709 (MP4) patterns through Kodi(16-235)/GPU(0-255)/AVR/Projector(16-235).
Colorimeter - X-Rite Colormunki Display.
Running the HCFR on a Windows 10 laptop.

Have set up the black and white levels using the clipping patterns in the Basic Patterns.

My main problem is when I run, say Gray Scale, during and after measuring each level, in the window on the left hand side, I can see the RGB columns change, but there is no information in the Data table.
Also using my Gain and Offset sliders in the projector appears to do nothing (with measure running continuously).

Can anyone see what I am doing wrong.

EDIT : I also need some advice on what Argyll settings for my Colormunki. I wasn't too sure what the settings should be (Colormunki 20" from matt white screen).

I should also add that I have not installed any drivers, software for the Colormunki as I understand that HCFR recognises it as a HID device.
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post #11487 of 11718 Old 04-25-2019, 11:08 PM
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Quoting an unanswered question will not make any difference if no one answered in the first place.
Please, you should try to explain your problem more precisely with screenshots and comments within the screenshots what you mean exactly.

Warm regards,
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post #11488 of 11718 Old 04-26-2019, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
Quoting an unanswered question will not make any difference if no one answered in the first place.
Please, you should try to explain your problem more precisely with screenshots and comments within the screenshots what you mean exactly.
Tried my calibration setup again tonight.
The only change I made was to move the colormunki closer to the screen (now 6").
Suddenly everything is working - getting all the data readings.
Carried out a 2 point grayscale calibration, and with a bit of back and forth, have steady dE around 0.2.

Will now do the full 10 point grayscale to check and fine tune.
Just thought I would stop calibrating and post this, so that everyone knows that my previous posts can be ignored.

Not sure why everything is now working, but I'm a happy camper.
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post #11489 of 11718 Old 04-26-2019, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post
Tried my calibration setup again tonight.
The only change I made was to move the colormunki closer to the screen (now 6").
I doubt very much the meter distance was the culprit. As a matter of fact, 6” may be too close as it’s hard to avoid reading (partially) the shadow cast by the meter (unless you tilt the meter).

Now that it is working, I suggest taking continuous readings while gradually moving the meter away the screen. Ideally the meter should be in line with the norm viewing position. Make sure the reading does not drop while doing so.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 04-26-2019 at 04:45 AM.
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post #11490 of 11718 Old 04-26-2019, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I doubt very much the meter distance was the culprit. As a matter of fact, 6” may be too close as it’s hard to avoid reading (partially) the shadow cast by the meter (unless you tilt the meter).

Now that it is working, I suggest taking continuous readings while gradually moving the meter away the screen. Ideally the meter should be in line with the norm viewing position. Make sure the reading does not drop while doing so.
Thanks Dominic, will do.
Currently the meter is tilted up (approx 40deg) aimed at the centre of my 54" x 96" matt white screen.
What am I looking for when moving the meter?
Do I keep moving it back from the screen until the "Y" starts to drop, then place it at the last max "Y"?

Regarding the cast shadow, I tried to find out what the reading angle of the meter's lens was, but X-Rite don't list it.
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