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post #11461 of 11477 Old 04-15-2019, 08:29 PM
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Finding 2.2 Gamma

How do you get 2.2 gamma or close to it on an Epson 5040UB ? I ran an 11 point grayscale test and fell from 1.8 all the way down to 1.6
The current gamma setting on the Epson is number 2. It's menu is setup as -2,-1,0,1,2
Any idea would be of great help. Thanks
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post #11462 of 11477 Old 04-15-2019, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cinema-Scope) View Post
How do you get 2.2 gamma or close to it on an Epson 5040UB ? I ran an 11 point grayscale test and fell from 1.8 all the way down to 1.6
The current gamma setting on the Epson is number 2. It's menu is setup as -2,-1,0,1,2
Any idea would be of great help. Thanks
Are you using the internal patterns? If so, you need first check that the range setting is correct (see recent posts).

If you're using disc patterns, make sure the player is in Standard mode (not modifying the gamma).

IIRC, the Epson gamma settings vary depend on the picture mode. Some use relative scales like you listed, others use actual gamma values such as 2.2 or 2.4.
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post #11463 of 11477 Old 04-15-2019, 10:07 PM
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As you can see here, everything seems okay for the most part, but gamma is really off. I had to use -2 on the epson's gamma setting to start off with a high arc, then it just rapidly falls down.
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post #11464 of 11477 Old 04-15-2019, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Are you using the internal patterns? If so, you need first check that the range setting is correct (see recent posts).

If you're using disc patterns, make sure the player is in Standard mode (not modifying the gamma).

IIRC, the Epson gamma settings vary depend on the picture mode. Some use relative scales like you listed, others use actual gamma values such as 2.2 or 2.4.

I'm using Rec 709 patterns from the HD basics disc. It contains IRE patterns 0 - 100.
Sony UHD UBP-UX80.
Sony has some pretty basic settings, so I can't adjust any gamma from there.

On the Epson 5040UB I have Cinema Bright mode. High power, auto iris is off. brightness 52, contrast 48
gamma is -2, color temp is 5 (6500K)
Screen is curved, color is silver, and it has very small pores. Unsure of the brand. 88" tall, 206" wide.
Projector is placed roughly 28ft away from the screen.

I'm using a xrite colormunki display meter.
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post #11465 of 11477 Old 04-16-2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cinema-Scope) View Post
I'm using Rec 709 patterns from the HD basics disc. It contains IRE patterns 0 - 100.
Sony UHD UBP-UX80.
Sony has some pretty basic settings, so I can't adjust any gamma from there.

On the Epson 5040UB I have Cinema Bright mode. High power, auto iris is off. brightness 52, contrast 48
gamma is -2, color temp is 5 (6500K)
Screen is curved, color is silver, and it has very small pores. Unsure of the brand. 88" tall, 206" wide.
Projector is placed roughly 28ft away from the screen.

I'm using a xrite colormunki display meter.
You'll want to change your gray scale targets "with gamma", so that when you adjust the 11-pts you can aim for the correct luminance.
First do a run with the different gamma settings (-2, -1, 0, etc..) to see which one is naturally the closest to the gamma target.

Good luck,
CFC

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post #11466 of 11477 Old 04-16-2019, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFC View Post
You'll want to change your gray scale targets "with gamma", so that when you adjust the 11-pts you can aim for the correct luminance.
First do a run with the different gamma settings (-2, -1, 0, etc..) to see which one is naturally the closest to the gamma target.

Good luck,
CFC
IIRC, the Epson does not have independent RGB controls in the Gaama adjustments screen, so “RGB w/Gamma” will provide no more info than the gamma curve, although some may find it easier to understand.
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post #11467 of 11477 Old 04-16-2019, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
IIRC, the Epson does not have independent RGB controls in the Gaama adjustments screen, so “RGB w/Gamma” will provide no more info than the gamma curve, although some may find it easier to understand.
Understood, but couldn't he still work the 11-pts to meet the targets w/gamma?
Perhaps I misunderstood since he said he ran the 11-pt test, and assumed that he has those available to adjust in the Epson menu.

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post #11468 of 11477 Old 04-16-2019, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cinema-Scope) View Post
I'm using Rec 709 patterns from the HD basics disc. It contains IRE patterns 0 - 100.
Sony UHD UBP-UX80.
Sony has some pretty basic settings, so I can't adjust any gamma from there.

On the Epson 5040UB I have Cinema Bright mode. High power, auto iris is off. brightness 52, contrast 48
gamma is -2, color temp is 5 (6500K)
Screen is curved, color is silver, and it has very small pores. Unsure of the brand. 88" tall, 206" wide.
Projector is placed roughly 28ft away from the screen.

I'm using a xrite colormunki display meter.
Is there a reason that you are using Cinema Bright? Generally "Natural" is a very easy mode to calibrate and it looks great.

I would say that you probably are getting the proper results given your setup. Depending on the room (wall and ceiling colors, ambient light, etc.) and the screen material you can easily get results such as this.

I recommend working through the manual gamma adjustment (adjust via graph). There is no straightforward procedure for this but I can at least tell you how I do it:

1. Calibrate 2-point greyscale using 11-point measurement and CIE2000 de w/gamma
2. Enable live measurement (the green arrow) and click the column corresponding to the 90% measurement values. Then manually choose the corresponding pattern on the AVS disc. You will need to adjust the gamma slider furthest to the right until your Y matches the target Y.
3. Repeat this for each greyscale level while moving left on the gamma slider graph. You will notice that some levels are affected by multiple gamma sliders on the 5040. You will just have to play with it until it is close.
4. After getting your gamma close you should re-do the 2-point greyscale (it should still be very close - at least this is what I have seen on my 6040).
5. Calibrate CMS, if necessary

Calibrating gamma using the graph sliders is a bit tricky at first but you will get it eventually. You should be able to get a nearly flat gamma (I can do it in my imperfect environment at 2.35 - just where I want it).

Remember these tips:
1. Graph sliders move the Y up and down for IRE levels increasing from left to right.
2. They do not correlate perfectly with 10% levels, and the x-axis is not linear (the sliders furthest right affect many levels, the sliders on the left affect less levels - they have more granularity). This gives you more control at the lower end of the IRE scale, which is where gamma is very important
3. Lower gamma = higher Y at a given IRE. Move the sliders down if you want the gamma to go up
4. When you go into the gamma adjust screen on the 5040 the current displayed image is frozen. Changing the pattern will not be reflected on the screen. So choose your IRE pattern before going into the gamma adjustment. This makes things awfully tedious.
5. When you first choose a slider every part of the displayed image that is within its IRE range will blink to indicate that you have found the proper slider(s). This is useful but also annoying. You must start to move a slider to stop this blinking and thus get a proper measurement.

Epson 6040ub
Denon AVR-X3400H + Mirage OMD-5 surrounds
Home-made Hybrid PCB Electrostatic Floorstanding L+R Speakers (with built-in DSP + amps)
Home-made sub with 15" Ultimax woofer, Dayton SA1000 Amp
Sony PS4, Sony UBP-X800

Last edited by jt7272; 04-16-2019 at 08:43 AM.
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post #11469 of 11477 Old 04-16-2019, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt7272 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cinema-Scope) View Post
I'm using Rec 709 patterns from the HD basics disc. It contains IRE patterns 0 - 100.
Sony UHD UBP-UX80.
Sony has some pretty basic settings, so I can't adjust any gamma from there.

On the Epson 5040UB I have Cinema Bright mode. High power, auto iris is off. brightness 52, contrast 48
gamma is -2, color temp is 5 (6500K)
Screen is curved, color is silver, and it has very small pores. Unsure of the brand. 88" tall, 206" wide.
Projector is placed roughly 28ft away from the screen.

I'm using a xrite colormunki display meter.
Is there a reason that you are using Cinema Bright? Generally "Natural" is a very easy mode to calibrate and it looks great.

I would say that you probably are getting the proper results given your setup. Depending on the room (wall and ceiling colors, ambient light, etc.) and the screen material you can easily get results such as this.

I recommend working through the manual gamma adjustment (adjust via graph). There is no straightforward procedure for this but I can at least tell you how I do it:

1. Calibrate 2-point greyscale using 11-point measurement and CIE2000 de w/gamma
2. Enable live measurement (the green arrow) and click the column corresponding to the 90% measurement values. Then manually choose the corresponding pattern on the AVS disc. You will need to adjust the gamma slider furthest to the right until your Y matches the target Y.
3. Repeat this for each greyscale level while moving left on the gamma slider graph. You will notice that some levels are affected by multiple gamma sliders on the 5040. You will just have to play with it until it is close.
4. After getting your gamma close you should re-do the 2-point greyscale (it should still be very close - at least this is what I have seen on my 6040).
5. Calibrate CMS, if necessary

Calibrating gamma using the graph sliders is a bit tricky at first but you will get it eventually. You should be able to get a nearly flat gamma (I can do it in my imperfect environment at 2.35 - just where I want it).

Remember these tips:
1. Graph sliders move the Y up and down for IRE levels increasing from left to right.
2. They do not correlate perfectly with 10% levels, and the x-axis is not linear (the sliders furthest right affect many levels, the sliders on the left affect less levels - they have more granularity). This gives you more control at the lower end of the IRE scale, which is where gamma is very important
3. Lower gamma = higher Y at a given IRE. Move the sliders down if you want the gamma to go up
4. When you go into the gamma adjust screen on the 5040 the current displayed image is frozen. Changing the pattern will not be reflected on the screen. So choose your IRE pattern before going into the gamma adjustment. This makes things awfully tedious.
5. When you first choose a slider every part of the displayed image that is within its IRE range will blink to indicate that you have found the proper slider(s). This is useful but also annoying. You must start to move a slider to stop this blinking and thus get a proper measurement.
Thanks a lot for this. I will try these settings when I get home.
The reason for using bright cinema is because it’s the brightest mode out of the box without producing too much green energy in Dynamic mode.

The screen is large, so I need to find the brightest mode possible. Out of the box, natural looks pretty dark on my screen.
My home theater is dark, no windows. Walls are painted matte grey/blue.
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post #11470 of 11477 Old Yesterday, 02:03 AM
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These might seem like dumb questions, but I need to ask.
Please feel free to correct me if my logic is wrong.

I want to calibrate my Epson TW2000 projector.
It is part of my HTPC system, so I want to run the calibration through the whole system i.e computer/receiver/display.
This would mean having the test patterns and HCFR in the computer, displaying on the same screen.
Is this a problem?

I have already initially calibrated my Black and White levels by running "Black Clipping" and "White Clipping" through Kodi/Computer/Receiver/Projector.
I also set the basic Colour and Tint by looking through a Blue filter at the "Flashing Color Bars". All of these patterns are from the AVS HD709's Basic Patterns.
I viewed these patterns through this Kodi/PC/projector chain because Kodi (my video player) is set to Limited (16-235), the GPU to Full (0-255) and the projector to Limited (16-235).
This is the recommended set-up of video levels in the processing chain (https://kodi.wiki/view/Video_levels_and_color_space).

When using HCFR, I would also like to run the test patterns through the same chain.
I guess this means I would not be able to use the internal signal generator as the patterns would not be passing through Kodi.
Would the HDFR test patterns from AVS HD709 be OK, or would madTPG be better?
I can place the required patterns in folders that I would then access using Kodi.
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post #11471 of 11477 Old Yesterday, 09:12 AM
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Is everyone else able to resize the windows so that the CIE chart has equal scales for x and y? I don’t have a screen shot handy, but in the background of the CIE chart is a gray grid on a black background. I can never make the cells of this grid square. My CIE charts are always ‘squished flat’.

I seem to remember it did it for me once, so I wonder what I did differently that time?

Windows XP laptop with 1280x800 native resolution, if that has anything to do with it..
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post #11472 of 11477 Old Yesterday, 09:18 AM
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Is everyone else able to resize the windows so that the CIE chart has equal scales for x and y? I don’t have a screen shot handy, but in the background of the CIE chart is a gray grid on a black background. I can never make the cells of this grid square. My CIE charts are always ‘squished flat’.

I seem to remember it did it for me once, so I wonder what I did differently that time?

Windows XP laptop with 1280x800 native resolution, if that has anything to do with it..
I don't believe there's any way to change the aspect range of the CIE chart, other than resizing the window itself.
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post #11473 of 11477 Old Yesterday, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post
When using HCFR, I would also like to run the test patterns through the same chain.
The best way would be to use madTPG for test patterns, and use madVR as renderer in Kodi.
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post #11474 of 11477 Old Yesterday, 09:28 AM
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EDIT

It does have to do with the laptop’s current display resolution. If I choose a different one, such as 1920x1080, I can now drag the corner of the window farther “down” which stretches things vertically more, as desired. Of course with my old laptop, choosing display resolutions that exceed the native resolution of the panel results in the entire OS behaving in a sort of pan-and-scan way, but anyway, it *can* work. What I’m gathering is HCFR has hard coded a certain minimum number of pixels in each dimension below which it won’t scale certain things. 800 pixels top-to-bottom is not enough for it to do what I want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I don't believe there's any way to change the aspect range of the CIE chart, other than resizing the window itself.
Ok, thanks. If I resize the entire HCFR window, it simply cuts off part of the chart in the current calibration file window. There’s a minimum size below which it won’t scale, it just crops, and the x scale is still wider than 1:1. Annoying..

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post #11475 of 11477 Old Yesterday, 11:02 AM
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Question !
Should color be calibrated before adjusting gamma to 2.2 ?
And when I say color, I mean the settings for RGB Gain & Offset.


Thanks,
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post #11476 of 11477 Old Yesterday, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The best way would be to use madTPG for test patterns, and use madVR as renderer in Kodi.
Thanks.
I should have also mentioned that I am using the MP4 version of AVS HD709.
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post #11477 of 11477 Old Yesterday, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cinema-Scope) View Post
Question !
Should color be calibrated before adjusting gamma to 2.2 ?
And when I say color, I mean the settings for RGB Gain & Offset.


Thanks,
Yes, especially for displays that use 10/20pt RGB controls to adjust gamma.
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