HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 385 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11521 of 11720 Old 05-01-2019, 12:50 PM
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This is going to sound like a stupid question, but... How do I perform a 20 point reading in HCFR? Do I have to do it with an external pattern generator, and just use the continuous readings? Or is there some sort of setting in the program I am missing that changes the graph and patterns to 20 point?
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post #11522 of 11720 Old 05-01-2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TheModestGun View Post
This is going to sound like a stupid question, but... How do I perform a 20 point reading in HCFR? Do I have to do it with an external pattern generator, and just use the continuous readings? Or is there some sort of setting in the program I am missing that changes the graph and patterns to 20 point?
Under Measures | Parameters you can change the number of measurement points.
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post #11523 of 11720 Old 05-01-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by engelba View Post
So, have what I think is a simple question. I've read thru and searched a bunch of messages in this thread and just want to make sure of something.

About to calibrate my old Epson 8500 projector.... it's been a long time..... :-).


I purchased Ted's patterns disk but want to use the automatic patterns in HCFR for speed/ease.

To ensure my laptop's HDMI is outputting a "clean" signal, I would just setup the meter (i1D3) run thru the grayscale measurements with the automatic patterns then run thru the same patterns off the blu ray disk and make sure they match (pretty close anyways).

If they do, I'm good... right? Or do I need to do primaries, sats etc...?
I would check the 100% primary colours in addition to grey scale.

Make sure HCFR is set for 16-235, and the graphics card 0-255.
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post #11524 of 11720 Old 05-01-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dwander View Post
Anyone with a new JVC have a recommendation between calibrating with a spyder5 elite+ or JVC autocal. I have to either buy the elite+ software or a cheap PC to run JVC autocal. Trying to find out whichever is the better way to go.
The Spyder software may be for presentation (computer display) rather than home theatre applications.

If you’re using a Mac computer you can run HCFR and JVC Autocal in a virtual PC.
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post #11525 of 11720 Old 05-01-2019, 02:13 PM
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The spyder elite is for projector display as well. But virtual PC is an option I hadn’t considered. I used it way back in the day and it was terrible but I’m sure it’s improved since 1996. Going to look into it. Thanks

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post #11526 of 11720 Old 05-01-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
I think I should profile my new i1 Display Pro against my actual display using a spectrophotometer.
You used to be able to rent an i1 pro spectro from a place called hippotech but they are gone. I see however that lensrentals.com rents an "i1 studio" (the picture looks a lot like a colormunki to me?) Is it reasonable to expect what they send me will be accurate enough to actually improve *my* accuracy? Or could this be a waste of time?
Am I missing anything?
I got no response, but apparently I *am* missing something.
I paid lensrentals.com to borrow an “i1 studio”
In addition to the fact that I don’t understand how the physical hardware is even supposed to work (How do you even point it? Where’s the hole where the light goes in?), I can’t get HCFR to recognize it.
I installed ArgyllCMS and it seems to recognize the meter. If I just type into a command prompt

C:> spotread

I get a great interactive session and it seems to be taking measurements and is generally happy.

But when I launch HCFR my only choice in the sensor drop-down is “Simulated Sensor”. (If I plug in my i1 pro colorimeter, that choice appears as expected, so I’m not completely dead.)

What am I doing wrong?
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post #11527 of 11720 Old 05-01-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
I got no response, but apparently I *am* missing something.
I paid lensrentals.com to borrow an “i1 studio”
In addition to the fact that I don’t understand how the physical hardware is even supposed to work (How do you even point it? Where’s the hole where the light goes in?), I can’t get HCFR to recognize it.
I installed ArgyllCMS and it seems to recognize the meter. If I just type into a command prompt

C:> spotread

I get a great interactive session and it seems to be taking measurements and is generally happy.

But when I launch HCFR my only choice in the sensor drop-down is “Simulated Sensor”. (If I plug in my i1 pro colorimeter, that choice appears as expected, so I’m not completely dead.)

What am I doing wrong?
I installed the driver from the HCFR "Drivers" folder, which is not the latest ArgyllCMS driver. HCFR recognizes it. (In my case I have a Colormunki spectro, but the i1 Studio should be the same.
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post #11528 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I installed the driver from the HCFR "Drivers" folder, which is not the latest ArgyllCMS driver. HCFR recognizes it. (In my case I have a Colormunki spectro, but the i1 Studio should be the same.
I believe I did that, as described in post 1 of this thread. I uninstalled/reinstalled/updated a few times and definitely navigated to the HCFR drivers folder. The driver installation seems to work and the OS is not complaining. I just don't see the device in HCFR. I'll try a couple more things today.



[Even if I get it recognized I still don't know how to find a manual that explains how an i1studio physically works. X-rite's website doesn't have one that I can find. There's a software installer (which doesn't work on my XP machine), just no PDF manual. But that's not really an HCFR issue]
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post #11529 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
I believe I did that, as described in post 1 of this thread. I uninstalled/reinstalled/updated a few times and definitely navigated to the HCFR drivers folder. The driver installation seems to work and the OS is not complaining. I just don't see the device in HCFR. I'll try a couple more things today.
What I meant was that you should NOT install the Argyll Color Management executable (which may load a different version of driver). If you have Windows 10 you will need to disable the Driver Signature Enforcement before installing the driver in HCFR folder.

Does the Device Manager show it installed with the ArgyllCMS driver?

EDIT: Just noticed you mentioned Windows XP, so that may be different.

Quote:
[Even if I get it recognized I still don't know how to find a manual that explains how an i1studio physically works. X-rite's website doesn't have one that I can find. There's a software installer (which doesn't work on my XP machine), just no PDF manual. But that's not really an HCFR issue]
There's a wheel on the side that you turn. The first position (sensor facing bottom hole) is for measuring monitors in contact mode; the next position (sensor covered) is for calibrate. The third position has a range allowing you to adjust the sensor to face the projector screen, and the last one (sensor under diffuser) is for ambient light measurements.
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post #11530 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nordo View Post
I've spent over 20 hours trying to calibrate my Epson PJ using an old Colormunki Display.
I have been struggling to get passed White Balance.
I was often getting erratic readings, and being a beginner, I thought that was normal.
I now realise (with a bit of research) that the erratic readings are due to the Colormunki being connected to a USB 3.0 port instead of a USB 2.0 port (which I don't have).

I eventually found a suggestion from X-Rite who said that several users have solved the problem by using a powered USB 2.0 hub.
BTW, I didn't find this information on their website, I found by an independant google search.
https://www.xrite.com/service-suppor...s_with_usb_3_0

I have ordered a Belkin 4 port powered USB2.0 hub.
I'll let everyone know if this solves my problem, But I thought I would post this here in case others are having the same problem.

EDIT : I have also found other comments where users believe that the problem wasn't so much the USB 3.0, but the fact that many colorimeters need 6 volts, whereas most USB ports in laptops, etc. only provide 5 volts.
UPDATE : My powered USB 2.0 hub arrived a couple of days ago.
Have done about 6 hours calibrating with the Colormunki/hub combination and so far the Colormunki seems to be behaving.

However, I am slowly coming to the conclusion that my old Epson EMP-TW2000 projector is not the easiest projector the calibrate.
Just setting the grayscale takes hours, and even then the RGB graph is no-where close to what others are achieving (there are always one or two levels where dE is over 3).
Don't even get me started on Gamma.
Colour calibration is just a distant dream.
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post #11531 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 02:54 PM
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Yeah, I'm pretty stumped.


My device manager looks just like yours.



If you just do a clean install of HCFR, the stock HCFR Argyll inf file won't work (go ahead, open that inf file, the word 'studio' does not appear anywhere in it). If you point to it, the OS reports 'device not installed' and the yellow exclamation point remains.



But if you rename the one installed by HCFR and put the latest one from Argyll in this location, the driver installs fine. (i even replaced the HCFR libusb.sys in the bin directory with the argyll one, same results).



The OS recognizes it, and Argyll executables recognize it. But HCFR does not seem to recognize it.


And lastly I'll just repeat, HCFR still works with other meters: I can still use my i1 pro colorimeter. HCFR just doesn't let me select the i1 studio.



$70 wasted on the rental I guess.
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post #11532 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
Yeah, I'm pretty stumped.


My device manager looks just like yours.



If you just do a clean install of HCFR, the stock HCFR Argyll inf file won't work (go ahead, open that inf file, the word 'studio' does not appear anywhere in it). If you point to it, the OS reports 'device not installed' and the yellow exclamation point remains.



But if you rename the one installed by HCFR and put the latest one from Argyll in this location, the driver installs fine. (i even replaced the HCFR libusb.sys in the bin directory with the argyll one, same results).



The OS recognizes it, and Argyll executables recognize it. But HCFR does not seem to recognize it.


And lastly I'll just repeat, HCFR still works with other meters: I can still use my i1 pro colorimeter. HCFR just doesn't let me select the i1 studio.



$70 wasted on the rental I guess.
I don’t think HCFR works with V2 ArgyllCMS drivers.
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post #11533 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I don’t think HCFR works with V2 ArgyllCMS drivers.
Ha, I would have liked to have known that earlier I guess. (Which is why I asked here if this was going to work *before* i rented it.)

I do thank you for the prompt replies while I tried to figure it out, however. That has been very helpful.

I don't suppose there is any way to *force* the OS to treat the hardware like an older colormunki?
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post #11534 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
Ha, I would have liked to have known that earlier I guess. (Which is why I asked here if this was going to work *before* i rented it.)

I do thank you for the prompt replies while I tried to figure it out, however. That has been very helpful.

I don't suppose there is any way to *force* the OS to treat the hardware like an older colormunki?
I only have a Colormunki so can’t actually try it, but usually you can “force” Windows to used drivers meant for another device by manually installing it, and then select it in manually in Device Manager.
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post #11535 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
The OS recognizes it, and Argyll executables recognize it. But HCFR does not seem to recognize it.
Right, because HCFR hasn't been updated to use the latest ArgyllCMS instlib code. Updating the .inf file is only doing part of what's needed.
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post #11536 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I only have a Colormunki so can’t actually try it, but usually you can “force” Windows to used drivers meant for another device by manually installing it, and then select it in manually in Device Manager.
Except that it isn't the system driver that is the problem. It hasn't changed, although the .inf file needed changing to attach the i1Studio USB VID/PID to the existing ArgyllCMS/libusb system driver. But the system driver just gives access to the USB interface - the actual instrument driver is user mode code in ArgyllCMS libinst. So HCFR needs re-compiling with the latest ArgyllCMS libinst to get things like the i1Studio and SpyderX going.
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post #11537 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 04:59 PM
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Except that it isn't the system driver that is the problem. It hasn't changed, although the .inf file needed changing to attach the i1Studio USB VID/PID to the existing ArgyllCMS/libusb system driver. But the system driver just gives access to the USB interface - the actual instrument driver is user mode code in ArgyllCMS libinst. So HCFR needs re-compiling with the latest ArgyllCMS libinst to get things like the i1Studio and SpyderX going.
Thank you Graeme, always a privilege to hear direct from the source.



I don't think it's likely I'll be able to compile a working HCFR executable on the setup I have before I have to send the meter back.


Which brings me back to where I was a couple weeks ago: if I wanted to rent a spectro to profile my colorimeter, does anyone have any suggestions? I've established lensrentals.com does not have a suitable spectro for HCFR users. It seems like the Seattle area is a hotbed of calibration expertise. Not sure why there aren't spectros for rent at every Starbucks but my google searches turned up nothing.


Or does anyone think it might be possible to accomplish my goal using a free/demo version of a different software package, eg does chromapure do 30 day eval periods? I mean HCFR certainly makes it easy, but surely it's not the only way to get the nine numbers to put in an XYZ offset matrix. And this matrix should be totally compatible across all calibration apps, right?
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post #11538 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 05:41 PM
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I don't think it's likely I'll be able to compile a working HCFR executable on the setup I have before I have to send the meter back.
Why don't you just profile your i1Display Pro against the i1Studio using DisplayCAL or Arygyll, and then use the correction in HCFR?
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post #11539 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post

Why don't you just profile your i1Display Pro against the i1Studio using DisplayCAL or Arygyll, and then use the correction in HCFR?
Good question. I hadn't considered those programs - I guess I assumed the learning curve would be steeper and there would be less support (which as you can see is often necessary with my old 32-bit laptop) than other GUI's. I'll have a look and report back.
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post #11540 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
Good question. I hadn't considered those programs - I guess I assumed the learning curve would be steeper and there would be less support (which as you can see is often necessary with my old 32-bit laptop) than other GUI's. I'll have a look and report back.
DisplayCAL is GUI, and uses ArgyllCMS 2.x drivers so you should be able to "see" the i1Studio.
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post #11541 of 11720 Old 05-02-2019, 11:34 PM
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If there is a discussion thread for Argyll command line stuff, somebody point me to it, it's not really my intention to overload this discussion with the details of my detour into making a correction file without actually using HCFR.


I ran ccxxmake from the command line and got a plausible looking offset matrix when using the meters physically in contact with the laptop's built in LCD display. But my goal is to profile my colorimeter against the spectra produced by my projector, not my laptop.



Tomorrow I'll try connecting a VGA cable between my ancient laptop and the projector. Hopefully this connection is adequate to give accurate results. HDMI is not an option and I'm not going to start learning even more new technologies (like chromecast or whatever) just to complete what is ultimately a very preliminary step towards the real goal of *calibrating* the projector using my colorimeter and HCFR.



(I realize VGA is not ideal and I would prefer to do this "untethered" (using my lumagen video processor as a pattern generator) but I couldn't figure if this is possible to get the sequence/timing right with the command line executable and it got late.)


Anyway, I just thought I'd report it's sort of working. Applying the XYZ matrix I generated tonight to a previous calibration run does seem to remap the gamut on the CIE chart in HCFR with a subtle but noticeable twist. So I think this profiling exercise will have value ultimately.
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post #11542 of 11720 Old 05-03-2019, 11:39 AM
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Quick question as I continue my 'HCFR discussion takeover' :


How repeatable should successive profiling runs be?


I compare the matrices I get (using DisplayCal now - excellent GUI! Totally sending a donation!) on successive runs, and they are close, but I mean these values have 8 places of precision and supposedly identical measurements aren't even consistent to the second decimal place.



Quote:
Example A
0.983996 -0.000405378 0.00331407
-0.0111110 0.980471 0.00920574
0.0117246 -0.00863519 0.985419

Example B
0.945797 0.0131258 0.00318868
-0.0241155 0.970060 0.00695095
0.0109322 -0.00496013 0.964160


These were computed using the same meters on the same display using the same technique 3 minutes apart.


The results of applying the matrices to a measurement file in HCFR are not dramatically different, visually, so I guess the matrix multiplication is not that sensitive to deviations even if the values appear rather different at first glance.


It brings to mind the old saying "A man with one watch knows what time it is; a man with two watches is never quite sure..."
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post #11543 of 11720 Old 05-03-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
How repeatable should successive profiling runs be?
I don't know the answer to this, but you can check the raw readings to see if the fluctuations are caused primarily by the i1Studio or the i1Display Pro. Presumably you can use the average values.

It's normally recommended to use the meters in non-contact mode, even for flat-panels displays.
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post #11544 of 11720 Old 05-04-2019, 04:07 AM
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I'm sorry to ask here, but could someone please tell me how to work on 30/80, high low in HCFR?
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post #11545 of 11720 Old 05-04-2019, 05:39 AM
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I'm sorry to ask here, but could someone please tell me how to work on 30/80, high low in HCFR?
The first post contains links to guides and tutorials. In particular, read the Curtpalme one.
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post #11546 of 11720 Old 05-05-2019, 05:21 PM
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I'm sorry to ask here, but could someone please tell me how to work on 30/80, high low in HCFR?
Basically make sure that the settings in preferences under advanced is absolute w/o gamma when doing 2-point. Try to minimize the dE for RGB on the gray scale by adjusting the offset with 20/30 and gain with 80/100. After you minimize the gray scale error, then you can move on. Also, if reading the full gray scale in between, try to minimize the middle of the gray scale as first priority, then the low end, then the high end. If you have to have errors, the high end of gray scale is preferred.

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The first post contains links to guides and tutorials. In particular, read the Curtpalme one.
Another decent one is the Huffman tutorial.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...-enhanced.html
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post #11547 of 11720 Old 05-07-2019, 09:55 AM
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Ok I spent some time using DisplayCal (because I could not use HCFR for this) to profile my i1 Pro colorimeter against an i1 Studio spectro.

I determined an XYZ offset matrix. (I averaged many comparison runs to converge on the final values.)

I then did a Full Tilt measurement run with JUST THE COLORIMETER because I could not get the spectro to work with HCFR (recall that Argyll 2 is not supported). I am posting that file. I also applied the XYZ correction matrix to see what the difference might be. I have posted that file also. Select one as 'reference' while viewing the other and you will see the effect of the correction.

Basically, it looks like the i1 Pro measures white about 1.7 dE76 off from what it should be. (At least according to a rental spectro of dubious accuracy that may have been dropped a hundred times etc etc). So that was a lot of work for a modest benefit.

I've also attached a ccss I produced with DisplayCal for fun.

Lastly a screenshot showing a graph of the spectrum contained in the ccss file.

Question: Is there anything else I can profitably be doing while I still have the i1 Studio? I have to return it at some point so please let me know if you think I need to re-do anything.

Many thanks for everyone's help on this.
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post #11548 of 11720 Old 05-07-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
Ok I spent some time using DisplayCal (because I could not use HCFR for this) to profile my i1 Pro colorimeter against an i1 Studio spectro.

I determined an XYZ offset matrix. (I averaged many comparison runs to converge on the final values.)

I then did a Full Tilt measurement run with JUST THE COLORIMETER because I could not get the spectro to work with HCFR (recall that Argyll 2 is not supported). I am posting that file. I also applied the XYZ correction matrix to see what the difference might be. I have posted that file also. Select one as 'reference' while viewing the other and you will see the effect of the correction.

Basically, it looks like the i1 Pro measures white about 1.7 dE76 off from what it should be. (At least according to a rental spectro of dubious accuracy that may have been dropped a hundred times etc etc). So that was a lot of work for a modest benefit.

I've also attached a ccss I produced with DisplayCal for fun.

Lastly a screenshot showing a graph of the spectrum contained in the ccss file.

Question: Is there anything else I can profitably be doing while I still have the i1 Studio? I have to return it at some point so please let me know if you think I need to re-do anything.

Many thanks for everyone's help on this.
I haven't reviewed your file yet. Make sure you are only using the CCSS and not the CCMX meter correction part.

Since you will need to return it at some point, I'd say make both CCSS and CCMX files for all displays. With the CCSS increasing the accuracy of the colorimeter, having it for all displays you own is needed. The reason that other than spectral correction is wanted, but maybe not going to be used is, as you mentioned, the accuracy of the rented device is in question. It may get the spectral sample fairly accurate, but the meter correction other than the spectral sample can introduce further errors into the reading.

This means you may want to try with and without the meter correction, but use the spectral correction (the list by display type should have the spectral sample in it; CCSS), that way to see which seems to be more accurate. Obviously it would be nice to have like a Klein K10-A as a reference colorimeter to make a meter correction file, but that is one more task that may or may not be available to you.

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ajc9988 is offline  
post #11549 of 11720 Old 05-07-2019, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
Yeah, I'm pretty stumped.


My device manager looks just like yours.



If you just do a clean install of HCFR, the stock HCFR Argyll inf file won't work (go ahead, open that inf file, the word 'studio' does not appear anywhere in it). If you point to it, the OS reports 'device not installed' and the yellow exclamation point remains.



But if you rename the one installed by HCFR and put the latest one from Argyll in this location, the driver installs fine. (i even replaced the HCFR libusb.sys in the bin directory with the argyll one, same results).



The OS recognizes it, and Argyll executables recognize it. But HCFR does not seem to recognize it.


And lastly I'll just repeat, HCFR still works with other meters: I can still use my i1 pro colorimeter. HCFR just doesn't let me select the i1 studio.



$70 wasted on the rental I guess.
So, to install the Argyll driver, you may need to special boot the OS disabling driver signature enforcement. After that, then try to install the driver for the device from your Argyll V2.1.1 folder.
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post #11550 of 11720 Old 05-07-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ajc9988 View Post
So, to install the Argyll driver, you may need to special boot the OS disabling driver signature enforcement. After that, then try to install the driver for the device from your Argyll V2.1.1 folder.
Hcfr does not work with Argyll V2 drivers.
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