HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 389 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11641 of 11708 Old 05-18-2019, 04:09 AM
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By irrelevant I meant as far as HCFR is concerned, as it is taking readings only at 16 through 235 when 16-235 is selected. Does this mean I should not be doing 16-235/0-255/16-235 for watching TV from my HTPC? You threw me a little saying that the TV uses 0-255 for things...TV receiving 0-255 only set to display 16-235, so 01-15 and 236-255 are using the back employee entrance to the TV to get to work?

I redid my HDR calibrations at 16-235/0-255/16-235 8 bit RGB...was that not correct? I was doing it Ycrbr 10 bit 4:2:2 limited GPU, but in Ycrbr my GPU is not capable of selecting full range, and I don't see a selection for 10 bit in HCFR. My TV has only 2 and 10 point WB, no CMS, so HDR is basically just rubbing RGB a bit down low and adjusting TV gamma and contrast so the luminance curve matches...assuming with the current state of HDR roll-off and high black levels that it probably doesn't matter to be bit perfect?

Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
Yes, correct:

GPU RGB 0-255 (full range)
HCFR (or calman, or media player, madVR etc.) 16-235 (limited)
TV/projector 16-235 (limited)

= bit-perfect video signal (if GPU driver settings for video optimization are disabled).

The ranges from 0-15 and 236-255 are not irrelevant! TVs and projectors use these areas for calculations within their image processing (overflow, rounding). That is very signifcant and leads to a much lower noise and reduces artefacts (compared and tested with several TVs and HT projectors) compared to a complete 0-255 signal chain.

MadVR guides are misleading and recommend 0-255 for the whole signal chain. This would be correct if we could assume a perfect RGB display (computer monitor) with zero image processing.

GPU RGB 0-255 only in resolution/output settings. Leave GPU video settings at default (16-235/limited) to prevent additional conversion.

With customer GPUs for SDR leave color resolution at 8 bit (not 12 bit) to prevent additional dithering. With HDR it is different.

Sony X900F SDR and HDR Calibrations https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552
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post #11642 of 11708 Old 05-18-2019, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It doesn't look like the laptop is actually running in Full Range. Run the madLevelsTweaker utility to confirm.
Dominic or anybody familar with madLevelsTweaker:


I have tried running the Tweaker app, but don't think it is doing anything. I went to the Doom9 forums to ask how to use this but I have no clue what is going on with my account on Doom9. I have not used my account in years, but I am able to log in, but can't see any forum threads when logged in. There is no way to contact an admin, as they have the contact us disabled for email. So I created a new account this morning to ask a question on the madVR thread. Turns out I am not allowed to post for 5 days from creating the account. Great.

Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated. The post I tried to post is below:

I am trying to calibrate my TV using HCFR software. I have my laptop set to output FULL vs LIMITED, but I am being told from my scans that it appears I am not actually getting FULL from the laptop and to run the madLevelsTweaker application. So I have downloaded it, extracted it, and run it.

The initial time I ran it, it popped up on the laptop screen, I checked the box for "Force PC Levels" and hit "Apply". The red message popped up on the bottom of the screen stating a reboot was required, so I did.

Ran the same scans in HCFR and nothing changed.

I run the application again, and realized I didn't read the message at the top stating "Please move this window to the target monitor." So I did, but the "Force PC levels" box was already picked. So, I unchecked it and hit Apply. Then checked it and hit apply. Rebooted.

Ran the same scan in HCFR and nothing changed.

I am looking for help on how to make this work, and validate it worked. Which registry value gets changed in the registry path shown in the app? And what is the value originally, and what does it get changed to?

Thanks
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post #11643 of 11708 Old 05-18-2019, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsnov73 View Post

I run the application again, and realized I didn't read the message at the top stating "Please move this window to the target monitor." So I did, but the "Force PC levels" box was already picked. So, I unchecked it and hit Apply. Then checked it and hit apply. Rebooted.

Ran the same scan in HCFR and nothing changed.
Set HCFR GDI to 0-255 and measure the white luminance. Then change it to 16-235 and re-measure the luminance. Is the first reading ~20% higher than the second? If so, which of the two is closer to the value you measured using Chromecast?
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post #11644 of 11708 Old 05-18-2019, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Set HCFR GDI to 0-255 and measure the white luminance. Then change it to 16-235 and re-measure the luminance. Is the first reading ~20% higher than the second? If so, which of the two is closer to the value you measured using Chromecast?
Yes, with GDI set 0-255 I get Y=106.712. Set 16-235 I get Y=89.086. Chromecast gets 106.210.
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post #11645 of 11708 Old 05-18-2019, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
By irrelevant I meant as far as HCFR is concerned, as it is taking readings only at 16 through 235 when 16-235 is selected. Does this mean I should not be doing 16-235/0-255/16-235 for watching TV from my HTPC? You threw me a little saying that the TV uses 0-255 for things...TV receiving 0-255 only set to display 16-235, so 01-15 and 236-255 are using the back employee entrance to the TV to get to work?

I redid my HDR calibrations at 16-235/0-255/16-235 8 bit RGB...was that not correct? I was doing it Ycrbr 10 bit 4:2:2 limited GPU, but in Ycrbr my GPU is not capable of selecting full range, and I don't see a selection for 10 bit in HCFR. My TV has only 2 and 10 point WB, no CMS, so HDR is basically just rubbing RGB a bit down low and adjusting TV gamma and contrast so the luminance curve matches...assuming with the current state of HDR roll-off and high black levels that it probably doesn't matter to be bit perfect?

Paul
Yes, regarding HCFR you are right. With 16-235 as GDI setting for the HCFR pattern generator, white IRE0 is RGB 16/16/16 and white IRE100 is 235/235/235. The same for every other external pattern generator.

If you set the GPU to RGB 0-255 (full range) the GPU will (usually) not alter the transmitted video data. To give the TV enough headroom for image processing you send the video data unaltered as 16-238 (limited). To get correct black and white levels and to enable the TV to use that headroom you set the TV to 16-235.

YCbCr is always limited (16-235) by definition. That's why the usual DVD/BluRay player has no problems because they usually output YCbCr by default. Only HTPC users have to fiddle around with these settings.

All GPU calculations lead to RGB data stored in the GPU RAM. If you select YCbCr for your GPU output it has to convert from RGB to YCbCr, which might be of lesser quality than letting the TV/projector do the conversion.

I am talking about SDR. HDR is a different matter. I have not much experience with HDR. I am waiting for the next final firmware for my 65C8 which should correct the gamma problem. Then I will do a HDR calibration. I use YCbCr 422 10 bit for HDR. But I am not certain wether this is the best HTPC setting for HDR.

Warm regards,
bejoro
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post #11646 of 11708 Old 05-18-2019, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Set HCFR GDI to 0-255 and measure the white luminance. Then change it to 16-235 and re-measure the luminance. Is the first reading ~20% higher than the second? If so, which of the two is closer to the value you measured using Chromecast?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsnov73 View Post
Yes, with GDI set 0-255 I get Y=106.712. Set 16-235 I get Y=89.086. Chromecast gets 106.210.
So based on what you replied to my post the other day this shows I’m not getting Full out of my laptop, right? I can’t seem to get madLevelsTweaker to change anything. Is there another option I can use to force FULL from the laptop?
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post #11647 of 11708 Old 05-18-2019, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsnov73 View Post
So based on what you replied to my post the other day this shows I’m not getting Full out of my laptop, right? I can’t seem to get madLevelsTweaker to change anything. Is there another option I can use to force FULL from the laptop?
What laptop do you have...does it have discrete AMD or Nvidia GPU or Intel AMD iGPU?

Paul

Sony X900F SDR and HDR Calibrations https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552
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post #11648 of 11708 Old 05-18-2019, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
What laptop do you have...does it have discrete AMD or Nvidia GPU or Intel AMD iGPU?

Paul
It's a Dell XPS15. It has an internal Intel HD 530 and a GeForce GTX 960M, but all output comes from the Intel HD 530. There are no controls within the nVidia control panel.
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post #11649 of 11708 Old 05-18-2019, 03:34 PM
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We discovered JD's issue...he was adjusting the VIDEO range not the HDMI range, BUT, when he went to his HDMI range, it was already at FULL. The problem was with the xvYCC setting, a special Sony only Bluray wide gamut non RGB toggle, that when enabled, will force LIMITED when the HDMI quantization master setting is FULL. Once that was disabled, his TV screen blinked and switched into actual FULL levels.

Paul
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post #11650 of 11708 Old 05-18-2019, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
We discovered JD's issue...he was adjusting the VIDEO range not the HDMI range, BUT, when he went to his HDMI range, it was already at FULL. The problem was with the xvYCC setting, a special Sony only Bluray wide gamut non RGB toggle, that when enabled, will force LIMITED when the HDMI quantization master setting is FULL. Once that was disabled, his TV screen blinked and switched into actual FULL levels.

Paul
Thanks Paul!!
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post #11651 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 12:29 AM
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I would like to calibrate HDR10 of my LG OLED 65C8.

What are the correct settings for HCFR?

What I found so far:

4% recommended Image Area (window size) for 2018 LG OLED?
Only 2P-High at/below roll off point IRE60?

o Reference Color:
- Rec2020/P3
- SMTPE 2084
- HDR On
- BT.2390 Tone mapping On
- Master MinL 0.05 cd/m²
- Master MaxL 4000 cd/m²
- Content MaxL 2000 cd/m²
- Moy. MaxL : 400 cd/m²
- Color Checker Patterns: BT2020HDR_50_50

o Advanced
- deltaE Color Diff. Formula : CIE2000 (not recommended)
- Gray scale dE handling : Avsolute Y w/gamma

Warm regards,
bejoro
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post #11652 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 12:43 AM
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Any reason only 2 point? When I did my 2 + 10 on my Sony LCD, I made sure to concentrate on matching the luminance curve up to 50% with my 10p, then just balancing the RGB above that and not trying to fight whatever rolloff my TV wanted to do, just keeping the white from going off. If an LG is anything like a Sony, the 10/20 points on the TV will not align with the HCFR references...I had to make a huge single color adjustment to each point and make a chart of what the TV's controls actually were adjusting, point for point.

Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
I would like to calibrate HDR10 of my LG OLED 65C8.

What are the correct settings for HCFR?

What I found so far:

4% recommended Image Area (window size) for 2018 LG OLED?
Only 2P-High at/below roll off point IRE60?

o Reference Color:
- Rec2020/P3
- SMTPE 2084
- HDR On
- BT.2390 Tone mapping On
- Master MinL 0.05 cd/m²
- Master MaxL 4000 cd/m²
- Content MaxL 2000 cd/m²
- Moy. MaxL : 400 cd/m²
- Color Checker Patterns: BT2020HDR_50_50

o Advanced
- deltaE Color Diff. Formula : CIE2000 (not recommended)
- Gray scale dE handling : Avsolute Y w/gamma
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Sony X900F SDR and HDR Calibrations https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552
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post #11653 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 12:58 AM
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I have a couple of questions regarding the settings in Advanced/Preferences/References.

My display is a LCD 1080p projector and I want to calibrate the projector to each of my sources using BT.1886.
My questions are :-

1. Does the BT.1886 formula in HCFR correctly allow for the 0% "black" level, or does it use a simple (naive) offset?

2. Has anyone forced the gamma to 2.4 at 50%, or is it best to stick to the standard BT.1866?

3. Regarding the "% input offset", I assume that the default setting of 100% means that all of the 0% "black" level reading is used to generate the target graph?
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post #11654 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
Any reason only 2 point? When I did my 2 + 10 on my Sony LCD, I made sure to concentrate on matching the luminance curve up to 50% with my 10p, then just balancing the RGB above that and not trying to fight whatever rolloff my TV wanted to do, just keeping the white from going off. If an LG is anything like a Sony, the 10/20 points on the TV will not align with the HCFR references...I had to make a huge single color adjustment to each point and make a chart of what the TV's controls actually were adjusting, point for point.

Paul
Hi Paul,

I found your and webdove's posts:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57508948

Very helpful! Thank you! I will try it that way.

Regarding your question:
Dominic Chan recommended to use only the 2-point adjustment with the LG OLEDs because of side effects of the 20-point adjustments with HDR and the high level of difficulty with less gain in visual accurateness. Another professional calibrator recommended to use only 2-point High setting because of black level side effects with 2-point Low.

The LG 2018 OLED panels (mine is a 65C8) seem to be quite linear, already well factory calibrated and need only slight adjustments (with SDR mine is very easy to calibrate with very few adjustments, but that's just my panel, maybe I was lucky). Maybe it will not be perfect but if the visual differences are very small between a simple 2-point and a very difficult 20-point and I can reduce unwanted side effects as far as possible I choose the 2-point as recommended by the pros.


I am still not sure which setting I should use for my nVidia GPU for HDR, YUV 10 bit or RGB full 12 bit. I think ConnecTEDDD recommended RGB full with 12 bit for HDR.

Warm regards,
bejoro

Last edited by bejoro; 05-21-2019 at 01:28 AM.
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post #11655 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post
I have a couple of questions regarding the settings in Advanced/Preferences/References.

My display is a LCD 1080p projector and I want to calibrate the projector to each of my sources using BT.1886.
My questions are :-

1. Does the BT.1886 formula in HCFR correctly allow for the 0% "black" level, or does it use a simple (naive) offset?

2. Has anyone forced the gamma to 2.4 at 50%, or is it best to stick to the standard BT.1866?

3. Regarding the "% input offset", I assume that the default setting of 100% means that all of the 0% "black" level reading is used to generate the target graph?
It appears that your 3. already answers 1.

As for 2., if you force the gamma 2.4 at 50%, the average will be higher than 2.4 unless you have absolute black. Not sure if there’s any advantage in doing that.
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post #11656 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 04:56 AM
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@Dominic Chan
Please, could you answer my question regarding the correct settings for HDR calibration of my LG OLED 65C8?
Are these HCFR settings correct? Thank you.

o Reference Color:
- Rec2020/P3
- SMTPE 2084
- HDR On
- BT.2390 Tone mapping On
- Master MinL 0.05 cd/m²
- Master MaxL 4000 cd/m²
- Content MaxL 2000 cd/m²
- Moy. MaxL : 400 cd/m²
- Color Checker Patterns: BT2020HDR_50_50

o Advanced
- deltaE Color Diff. Formula : CIE2000 (not recommended)
- Gray scale dE handling : Avsolute Y w/gamma

Warm regards,
bejoro
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post #11657 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 05:59 AM
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I have learned from ConnecTEDDD that BT.2390 is for projectors only.
So my screenshot should be the correct settings for HDR with an LG OLED C8.

Is it correct that HCFR inserts the correct/measured target values (Diffuse White, Target MinL/MaxL) automatically after the first gray scale run?

I thought I read about that somewhere in this thread, but I am not sure.

Or do I have to insert these values manually (Override Targets)? Diffuse White is the luminance value at 50%, correct?

Help would be appreciated.
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post #11658 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
If an LG is anything like a Sony, the 10/20 points on the TV will not align with the HCFR references...I had to make a huge single color adjustment to each point and make a chart of what the TV's controls actually were adjusting, point for point.
SDR: The 20P of my LG 65C8 matches the 20P gray scale of HCFR perfectly, very easy to handle. But OLED in general is a bit more difficult to calibrate (image area, black frame insertion, settling time etc.).
HDR: 20P so far not tested and not recommended (OLED HDR calibration behavior is very much different from an LCD - like ConnecTEDDD wrote, OLED HDR calibration is an art).

Warm regards,
bejoro
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post #11659 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
I would like to calibrate HDR10 of my LG OLED 65C8.
The guys here will probably have higher quality answers than me but, as we share the same panel, I will tell what I did for HDR with HCFR. Once you have HCFR set up correctly, measure 100%, then measure 70% and adjust High. Measure 20% and adjust Low. Allow the screen to settle for at least 10 seconds between each measurement, particularly after 70%/100%. I found tone mapping kicks in after 70%; some will advise using 65% but the lower you go for the High point the more you lose peak brightness. I also calibrated with Dynamic Tone Mapping off, enabling it only afterwards.

I think you're probably using madTPG. My chain was: GPU RGB Full, madTPG TV levels (16-235), TV black level Low.

Honestly, I don't know myself if I did everything right. I tried HDR 20pt several times but gave up as you need to use custom triplets and I think the gains would be marginal. One thing I've never been sure about is whether to use constant or individual measure. With HDR it made more sense to me to trust individual measures as it drifts in the top end when running constants. I also couldn't manage BT2020HDR_50_50 for the CMS. This was probably user error but it seemed to introduce some strange effects on content, so I left it at default.
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post #11660 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 11:37 AM
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I thank you very much for your very useful answer. I will try it that way. Yes, I use madTPG with the same signal chain as you. The 10 seconds settling time between measurments is interesting, I will definately try that. I did not intend to use the 20p, only 2P with HDR, but it is good to have your confirmation.

Please, could you show me your HCFR preferences settings? I think I have it together already but just to make sure that I am not measuring in the wrong direction.

Warm regards,
bejoro
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post #11661 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
I thank you very much for your very useful answer. I will try it that way. Yes, I use madTPG with the same signal chain as you. The 10 seconds settling time between measurments is interesting, I will definately try that. I did not intend to use the 20p, only 2P with HDR, but it is good to have your confirmation.

Please, could you show me your HCFR preferences settings? I think I have it together already but just to make sure that I am not measuring in the wrong direction.
Here you go. Looks to be the same as yours apart from the Color Space. The 0/4000/4000/400 I am not sure about with regard to what madTPG sends. I also measured 10% windows with madTPG (as for SDR). 4% might be better? Not sure if there's an agreed standard here. FWIW I measured 730~ nits for peak highlights with this method.

Again though, not certain everything is correct - learning as I go! I've had SDR down pat for a few years now, still getting to grips with HDR.
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post #11662 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 01:24 PM
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Thank you very much again. It is a good starting point. The 4% image area comes from an experienced calibrator.
I am also well experienced with SDR calibration for many years but like you with HDR I am also still learning.
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Warm regards,
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post #11663 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
I have learned from ConnecTEDDD that BT.2390 is for projectors only.
Im not sure why Ted said that. Tone mapping is required whenever the MaxL of the source material exceeds the display’s peak luminance, otherwise the highlights will be clipped. Projectors are an obvious example as they typically can only produce 100-150 nit peak; even with a scaling factor of 5 that’s still only
500-750 nits.

Quote:
Is it correct that HCFR inserts the correct/measured target values (Diffuse White, Target MinL/MaxL) automatically after the first gray scale run?
HCFR automatically inserts Target MaxL.

Quote:
Or do I have to insert these values manually (Override Targets)? Diffuse White is the luminance value at 50%, correct?
Diffuse white is the luminance at 50%, but it’s not inserted automatically as in many cases (especially projectors) you need to enter a target value and adjust for it.
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post #11664 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It appears that your 3. already answers 1.
Not really.
There have been reports that there are some calibration software that in their BT.1886 target curve, simply offset the 2.4 gamma curve by the amount of the 0% "black" reading, without re-adjusting the slope of the target graph. The correct graph should effectively have the Y axis re-positioned along the X axis, so that the "black" reading is taken into account. The slope of the graph would then be correct for the relevant IRE, and with the graph reaching 100%IRE at the 100%white reading. This has to be done mathematically, not simply offsetting the standard curve by the reading of the "black" level.
My question 3 relates to result of using 100% (or another setting) in the "% input offset".

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
As for 2., if you force the gamma 2.4 at 50%, the average will be higher than 2.4 unless you have absolute black. Not sure if there’s any advantage in doing that.
I was really only curious as to why anyone would want to change the BT.1886 curve if you were trying to calibrate to BT.1886.
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post #11665 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post
Not really.
There have been reports that there are some calibration software that in their BT.1886 target curve, simply offset the 2.4 gamma curve by the amount of the 0% "black" reading, without re-adjusting the slope of the target graph.
There are only 4 calibration software packages I know about; I don’t believe any of those four used that approach for BT.1886. That is what HCFR calls “power law with black compensation”.
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post #11666 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Im not sure why Ted said that. Tone mapping is required whenever the MaxL of the source material exceeds the display’s peak luminance, otherwise the highlights will be clipped. Projectors are an obvious example as they typically can only produce 100-150 nit peak; even with a scaling factor of 5 that’s still only
500-750 nits.

Diffuse white is the luminance at 50%, but it’s not inserted automatically as in many cases (especially projectors) you need to enter a target value and adjust for it.
Thank you very much, Dominic. Sorry for the beginner's questions. I am familiar with SDR calibration but HDR is new to me.
I am searching and reading a lot but some information are ambiguous.

Ted's explanation:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57380552

Should we enable BT.2390 in HCFR preferences for LG OLED calibration?
Should I manually insert the value of Diffuse White after the first run?

Warm regards,
bejoro
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post #11667 of 11708 Old 05-21-2019, 11:12 PM
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Should we enable BT.2390 in HCFR preferences for LG OLED calibration?
Should I manually insert the value of Diffuse White after the first run?
My own preference is to turn it on always. If the TV doesn’t need it, turning it on will make no difference to the EOTF.

For direct view TVs the diffuse white is usually kept at the standard value of 94 nits. For projectors a much lower value (15-25 nits) is used.
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post #11668 of 11708 Old 05-22-2019, 12:05 AM
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hi,


sorry for my english, come from germany and its not my main language.


Question, which is the right thing for hcfr?
RGB or ycbcr?


My panasonic ubd 900 can only maky ycbcr output, and all movies coming with this, but i read that i must make it in rgb?



I would like to make a dauermessung, but that's only about the Zusschubung with the panasonic, but the values ​​are in the gray stairs other than the values ​​measured in RGB with the internal pattern generator of hcfr, need help here urge. Preferably in German ..
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post #11669 of 11708 Old 05-22-2019, 10:09 AM
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Laptops most of the time are only bit accurate for rgb full range.

With the internal pattern generator choose full range for your hdmi output and 16-235 in hcfr and on your tv (limited range).

Panasonic OLED55FZW 804
i1 Display Pro OEM 2018 profiled by Jeti 1501
i1 Pro 2, DVDo AVLab TPG, HD Fury Integral
Oppo UDP203
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post #11670 of 11708 Old 05-22-2019, 10:31 AM
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What is the difference between using a meter correction file and manually entering XYZ offset matrix values?

Specifically, when I open old .chc files I have made, sometimes it’s not clear whether XYZ corrections were used and if so what the values were.

Sometimes the checkbox toggle that lets you switch back and forth between viewing results with and without corrections does not even appear even though I know corrections were used.

What is the best practice? How can I avoid this confusion?
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