HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 390 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11671 of 11714 Old 05-22-2019, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
Laptops most of the time are only bit accurate for rgb full range.

With the internal pattern generator choose full range for your hdmi output and 16-235 in hcfr and on your tv (limited range).
Question is, what is better to calibrate RGB or Ycbcr?


All Time the Signal comes to my projector in Ycbcr
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post #11672 of 11714 Old 05-23-2019, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2907 View Post
Question is, what is better to calibrate RGB or Ycbcr?


All Time the Signal comes to my projector in Ycbcr
I don't know anything about your projector, but most people work in RGB, whether calibrating a TV or a projector.
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post #11673 of 11714 Old 05-23-2019, 02:29 AM
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ITS a Sony 260.

Gesendet von meinem SM-N960F mit Tapatalk
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post #11674 of 11714 Old 05-23-2019, 03:38 PM
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Anyone successful on using a SpyderX? i just got one to replace the Spyder5 but HCFR is not seeing it. I downloaded the updated Argyll 2.1.1.

Thanks for any suggestions. I may return it if I can't get it to work.
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post #11675 of 11714 Old 05-23-2019, 04:23 PM
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Anyone successful on using a SpyderX? i just got one to replace the Spyder5 but HCFR is not seeing it. I downloaded the updated Argyll 2.1.1.

Thanks for any suggestions. I may return it if I can't get it to work.
HCFR will need to be recompiled with Argyll 2 drivers before it will recognize the new meters.
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post #11676 of 11714 Old 05-23-2019, 06:20 PM
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That's what i figured. I probably bet no eta too. I think I'll return it and could buy it again once the update comes out.
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post #11677 of 11714 Old 05-23-2019, 07:51 PM
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That's what i figured. I probably bet no eta too. I think I'll return it and could buy it again once the update comes out.
Or go for an i1 Display Pro.
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post #11678 of 11714 Old 05-23-2019, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
Thank you very much again. It is a good starting point. The 4% image area comes from an experienced calibrator.
I am also well experienced with SDR calibration for many years but like you with HDR I am also still learning.
I had another attempt at calibrating HDR on my C8 tonight. Thanks for the inspiration. This time I used 1% windows and found surprisingly little difference from 10% windows - around +5 nits at 70% and 100%. I do now prefer the smaller window method. So, I did Low/High at 20%/70% and found I still couldn't get 65% and 70% to play nice. I always had to choose between one or the other with only the 2pt method. I decided to adjust some points in the 20pt afterwards, corresponding around the points with the biggest Y errors. I used this post as a template and moved each RGB point by an equal value (only changing Y). The codes may not match for everyone, depending on whether you're using HDMI or a built-in app (as well as what metadata you're sending!) but they're good enough for a general reference.

I also didn't find much difference between 0/4000/4000/400 and 0/1000/1000/400. After re-measuring the patches both charts tracked nicely, but still not sure if MinL should be 0.0005 or 0. BT.2390 I still have no idea about, but I took Dominic's advice and left it on for this run. I had seen the same post as you from Ted recommending to leave it off. 70% would have to be much brighter (613 nits) in the attached image if I had switched it off ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Hope this helps you or someone else. Now, if only I could work out this 50/50 lum/sat business .
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post #11679 of 11714 Old 05-23-2019, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holdemphil View Post
BT.2390 I still have no idea about, but I took Dominic's advice and left it on for this run. I had seen the same post as you from Ted recommending to leave it off. 70% would have to be much brighter (613 nits) in the attached image if I had switched it off
Almost by definition, tone mapping will be reducing the brightness of highlights. I believe that’s why some people recommend turning it off during calibration. However, it would also mean that hard clipping will happen at a lower input level.
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post #11680 of 11714 Old 05-23-2019, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Almost by definition, tone mapping will be reducing the brightness of highlights. I believe that’s why some people recommend turning it off during calibration. However, it would also mean that hard clipping will happen at a lower input level.
I have a feeling, now that you explained it so clearly, that it should be left off with the C8. The dynamic tone mapping feature (off for calibration) already resolves detail up to 1000 nits, not sure additional tone mapping helps any (up to 4000 is clipped in any case). I'll use another picture preset tomorrow and calibrate the same way, leaving it off this time. I hate leaving things to preference; so much about HDR (on current panels) seems to be preference and compromise rather than achievable targets.
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post #11681 of 11714 Old 05-23-2019, 11:03 PM
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Thank you very much @holdemphil and @Dominic Chan . Now I am well prepared to do my own HDR calibration. SDR was no problem.

Two very experienced calibrators recommended, not to use the 2P-low with LG OLED 2018 with SDR and HDR. 2P-low will introduce non-linearity issues and uncorrectable black-level shifts. For SDR they strongly recommend to use 20P instead of 2P-low, for HDR like Dominic only 2P-high. I followed their recommendations for SDR and achieved a smoother result at the low end and a more linear response overall.

I always try to adjust as little as possible to prevent artefacts caused by digital calculations (overflow, clipping, rounding errors, calculation resolution error). The results are much smoother, free of artefacts if you try to get only close to the reference parameters with fewer adjustments than to try to achieve perfect measurements but with a lot of artefacts.

With SDR I achieved a Delta-E of below max. 0.7 with only adjusting 2P-high and 5 lower points of 20P, everything below 1.0 is perfect. I can achieve a max Delta-E of 0.2 with strong adjustments using 2P and all 20P but with banding and artefacts all over the place.

And never use the Luminance setting in 20P (LG OLED), only use the RGB values instead.
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post #11682 of 11714 Old 05-24-2019, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2907 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by baller02 View Post
Laptops most of the time are only bit accurate for rgb full range.

With the internal pattern generator choose full range for your hdmi output and 16-235 in hcfr and on your tv (limited range).
Question is, what is better to calibrate RGB or Ycbcr?


All Time the Signal comes to my projector in Ycbcr
It is better to use the one your source device uses, if the pattern generator and your device are bit accurate with this color space.

If this is not the case the best is to use bit perfect patterns directly played from your source device.

Panasonic OLED55FZW 804
i1 Display Pro OEM 2018 profiled by Jeti 1501
i1 Pro 2, DVDo AVLab TPG, HD Fury Integral
Oppo UDP203
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post #11683 of 11714 Old 05-24-2019, 05:37 AM
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I read here and there, even on the original french forum of ColorHCFR where it all began, plus the fact that HCFR has not been recompiled since almost a year (or is it even more ?) that HCFR relies on the dedication of one person (Zoyd ?), if that is true and whatever the degree of dedication of that person is, it is foreseeable that HCFR will sooner or later be a dead product.
Already there are new devices not supported, and the technology trend will not stop.
Is that true or am I missing something ?
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post #11684 of 11714 Old 05-24-2019, 07:25 PM
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Anyone know what causes such color errors around edges after calibration? I’ve got a pretty nice flat 2.2 gamma curve including in RGB but bright highlights don’t have smooth transitions. First image is ISF calibrated second is Technicolor preset from my LG C8.
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post #11685 of 11714 Old 05-24-2019, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by thepiecesfit View Post
Anyone know what causes such color errors around edges after calibration? I’ve got a pretty nice flat 2.2 gamma curve including in RGB but bright highlights don’t have smooth transitions. First image is ISF calibrated second is Technicolor preset from my LG C8.
You need to post your HCFR data file to allow troubleshooting. Take a 20-pt greyscale sweep as well as saturation sweep.
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post #11686 of 11714 Old 05-24-2019, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You need to post your HCFR data file to allow troubleshooting. Take a 20-pt greyscale sweep as well as saturation sweep.
I dont think I did a saturation sweep at the time but did primaries and 20point greyscale. Will fire it up tomorrow. Anything you can tell from this?
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post #11687 of 11714 Old 05-24-2019, 09:04 PM
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I dont think I did a saturation sweep at the time but did primaries and 20point greyscale. Will fire it up tomorrow. Anything you can tell from this?
That looks good. Did you make any drastic adjustments to greyscale or CMS?
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post #11688 of 11714 Old 05-24-2019, 09:16 PM
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That looks good. Did you make any drastic adjustments to greyscale or CMS?
Come to think of it the Blue color change was fairly extreme. Attached are the settings.
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post #11689 of 11714 Old 05-25-2019, 12:40 AM
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These are really drastic adjustments.

The Luminance setting in 20P of LG OLED causes artefacts/banding.
Use RGB values instead and leave Luminance = 0.


Don't adjust gamma tracking from IRE70 to IRE100, the variations may seem signifcant in the chart but they are barely visible (look at the absolute luminance Y values, the differences are tiny). The measurements of gamma tracking from IRE70 to IRE100 can be faulty because of automatic brightness limiter (ABL) of the OLED panel controller. I would recommend to leave everything above IRE50 alone.

Try different image areas (window size) of 18%, 10% and 5% to get a better feeling for the gamma tracking. Do the measurements for gamma with IRE100 at 100 nits reference level (reduce OLED Light) to get a better feeling for the gamma tracking of your panel. If everything is pretty close to an average reference gamma then you are fine. Extreme jumps can be ignored especially in the higher range of IRE70 - IRE100.

Most LG OLED 2018 panels and factory calibrations are very good. If you achieve a Delta-E (without gamma) of below 1.5 your are very fine and do not adjust any more. Delta-E of 1.5 is already (almost) perfect but you prevent these artefacts. Everything below a Delta-E of 1.0 is reference quality. Every adjustment can cause artefacts.

Do not use the CMS with LG OLED (and almost every other manufacturer).

Perfect measurements charts must not lead to a perfect picture.

Edit:
If you are a very experienced calibrator with extensive experience and knowledge of display technology, device models, manufacurers and how to analyze picture artefacts in detail, then you could achieve a better result. But whether this makes a signifcant visible difference is mostly questionable but maybe desirable. There are TVs, displays and projectors which are very difficult to calibrate and in these cases a professional calibrator makes sense.
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post #11690 of 11714 Old 05-25-2019, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
These are really drastic adjustments.

The Luminance setting in 20P of LG OLED causes artefacts/banding.
Use RGB values instead and leave Luminance = 0.


Don't adjust gamma tracking from IRE70 to IRE100, the variations may seem signifcant in the chart but they are barely visible (look at the absolute luminance Y values, the differences are tiny). The measurements of gamma tracking from IRE70 to IRE100 can be faulty because of automatic brightness limiter (ABL) of the OLED panel controller. I would recommend to leave everything above IRE50 alone.

Try different image areas (window size) of 18%, 10% and 5% to get a better feeling for the gamma tracking. Do the measurements for gamma with IRE100 at 100 nits reference level (reduce OLED Light) to get a better feeling for the gamma tracking of your panel. If everything is pretty close to an average reference gamma then you are fine. Extreme jumps can be ignored especially in the higher range of IRE70 - IRE100.

Most LG OLED 2018 panels and factory calibrations are very good. If you achieve a Delta-E (without gamma) of below 1.5 your are very fine and do not adjust any more. Delta-E of 1.5 is already (almost) perfect but you prevent these artefacts. Everything below a Delta-E of 1.0 is reference quality. Every adjustment can cause artefacts.

Do not use the CMS with LG OLED (and almost every other manufacturer).

Perfect measurements charts must not lead to a perfect picture.

Edit:
If you are a very experienced calibrator with extensive experience and knowledge of display technology, device models, manufacurers and how to analyze picture artefacts in detail, then you could achieve a better result. But whether this makes a signifcant visible difference is mostly questionable but maybe desirable. There are TVs, displays and projectors which are very difficult to calibrate and in these cases a professional calibrator makes sense.
That's a bit disappointing. I didn't notice the issue until I played this baking show with a lot of colorful lights. Zeroing out the Luminance adjustments and CMS adjustments fixed the color errors. So is the only way to properly calibrate the display is to get access to the lookup tables via something like Calman Autocal for LG? Sorry trying to understand if CMS cannot be used what's the point of doing it manually if any?
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post #11691 of 11714 Old 05-25-2019, 11:01 PM
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Because the visual difference between a good manual calibration and an almost perfect 3DLUT is very small (I have compared it at a friend's setup). It is very difficult and needs a lot of work to achieve a perfect 3DLUT with 2018 OLEDs (and 2019) using Calman or Lightspace. Visit the LG OLED 2018 calibration thread and read how difficult it is, that so many things can go wrong (banding, clipping, artefacts) and users had to try a lot, for many, many hours or never achieved a proper auto calibration.

It is possible and not very difficult to achieve a very good manual calibration with LG OLED with almost reference quality (for SDR) using 2P-high and 20P only (with moderate adjustments, knowing what is necessary, as explained).

If you are a perfectionist who only can enjoy movies and TV shows knowing that the measurement charts are perfect you have to invest a lot of money in a professional calibrator or buy software and expensive gear and study and try a lot for a long time (make calibration your hobby).

And even with that huge effort you will never get absolute perfection because of panel and firmware limitations, sensor limitations etc. Calibration is always about trying to achieve the best compromise between reference and equipment limitations.
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post #11692 of 11714 Old 05-27-2019, 06:24 AM
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I'm able to use HCFR with an external (Ted's DVD) source for patterns, but it crashes whenever I try to use my chromecast for auto generation. Running version 3.5.1.4, chromecast gen 1. As soon as I start trying a pattern (via F2, full tilt boogie, etc.) the program closes. I've tried clicking on "debug log" as part of startup but no logs are generated.

Any suggestions? I'd love to take advantage of the auto-generation to speed up the process.
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post #11693 of 11714 Old 05-27-2019, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by wizzy View Post
I'm able to use HCFR with an external (Ted's DVD) source for patterns, but it crashes whenever I try to use my chromecast for auto generation. Running version 3.5.1.4, chromecast gen 1. As soon as I start trying a pattern (via F2, full tilt boogie, etc.) the program closes. I've tried clicking on "debug log" as part of startup but no logs are generated.

Any suggestions? I'd love to take advantage of the auto-generation to speed up the process.
Chromecast seems to be problematic with HCFR on some systems. Have you tried madTPG or direct HDMI output from the laptop?

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post #11694 of 11714 Old 05-27-2019, 09:03 PM
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How to choose display type in HCFR

Hey there, Just spent the last couple weeks going through all the articles about HCFR, calibrating in general and i think I could half way get certified in ISF!!! It's really cool stuff to me and a huge thanks goes out to the people that have shared this info!

With that said I don't understand how to choose display type in HCFR. There is so many? How does one go about finding out what to use for say a vizio m65-c1 which i have which is a LED LCD with local dimming. Or what about a TCL brand. Do I choose just unknown or least LED with wide gamut? Question then though is the vizio is just a VA TN panel so I don't think it has wide gamut.
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post #11695 of 11714 Old 06-07-2019, 01:06 PM
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You should remember from certification that your colorimeter requires spectrometer calibration on the display you calibrate. The profile you are asked to choice are correction embedded in I1D3, unless the last one (The Oled C7 one, taken by Zoyd). You need to generated your own, so the best is starting from the basic one, Non refresh Display. I suggest you validate it after having generated its XYZ matrix correction.

For you measurement you shouls find a way of disabling autodimming, otherwise you are going to have false black levels.

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post #11696 of 11714 Old 06-08-2019, 12:20 AM
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Verifying WRGB Settings on I1pro

I have given a verification on my E8 of @zoyd 's correction (i.e. display type=WRGB OLED) on my I1D3. I have done my matrix using my Jeti 1501 and then checked differences from Jeti <= (My One, Zoyd's, My One and No Refresh Display) and from My One <= ( Zoyd's and No Refresh Display):

Red means that NIST tollerance is more than doubled, green passed and yellow in between.
You can see, even if not perfect (but that's would have been only a lucky case), Zoyd's correction is good on my E8 and it is a good progress to Default.
It might be interesting other ones do similar measurement, to better assess Zoyd's correction.

PS: I have included the data, as read, in attachment.
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post #11697 of 11714 Old 06-13-2019, 12:35 PM
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Use LG patterns in grayscale calibration

I am calibrating a LG B6 OLED in HDR mode. I am using test images that line up with the LG settings, which don't align with the conventional 5, 10, 15,...95, 100% values. The 20 LG patterns go up to a max of 68.5%, presumably because the display's tone mapping clips from there to 100%.

When making the measurements, HCFR calls for the next image, but the targets and displayed values percentages don't align. The luminance graph goes up to 100%, but the 20 measurements only go up to 68.5%, so the graph doesn't align with the target curve.

Is there a way to get HCFR to calculate and display the percentages in the LG patterns?

Thank you in advance...
Ron
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post #11698 of 11714 Old 06-13-2019, 05:55 PM
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Do what I did for my Sony...select each 20 point, make a major max adjustment to a single color, do a full greyscale sweep, and note on a graph which HCFR % matches which 20 point TV adjustment. It was the only way I could figure out how to calibrate my Sony 10 point HDR.

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I am calibrating a LG B6 OLED in HDR mode. I am using test images that line up with the LG settings, which don't align with the conventional 5, 10, 15,...95, 100% values. The 20 LG patterns go up to a max of 68.5%, presumably because the display's tone mapping clips from there to 100%.

When making the measurements, HCFR calls for the next image, but the targets and displayed values percentages don't align. The luminance graph goes up to 100%, but the 20 measurements only go up to 68.5%, so the graph doesn't align with the target curve.

Is there a way to get HCFR to calculate and display the percentages in the LG patterns?

Thank you in advance...
Ron

Sony X900F SDR and HDR Calibrations https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552
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post #11699 of 11714 Old 06-13-2019, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
I have given a verification on my E8 of @zoyd 's correction (i.e. display type=WRGB OLED) on my I1pro. I have done my matrix using my Jeti 1501 and then checked differences from Jeti <= (My One, Zoyd's, My One and No Refresh Display) and from My One <= ( Zoyd's and No Refresh Display):

Red means that NIST tollerance is more than doubled, green passed and yellow in between.
You can see, even if not perfect (but that's would have been only a lucky case), Zoyd's correction is good on my E8 and it is a good progress to Default.
It might be interesting other ones do similar measurement, to better assess Zoyd's correction.

PS: I have included the data, as read, in attachment.
Interesting information. When you refer to Zoyd's "WRGB OLED" correction, do you mean the spectral sample file (.ccss) he made with his Jeti on a C7? Also, is your default meter "I1pro" or is it an i1 Display Pro (i1D3)? The reason I ask is that I didn't think it was possible to use a spectral sample file with an i1Pro spectro (you could use a matrix), but you can use spectral sample with an i1 Display Pro colorimeter.
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Last edited by jdbimmer; 06-13-2019 at 06:05 PM.
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post #11700 of 11714 Old 06-13-2019, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post
Interesting information. When you refer to Zoyd's "WRGB OLED" correction, do you mean the spectral sample file (.ccss) he made with his Jeti on a C7?
I mean what I find in display type as WRGB OLED (LG B7(2017))
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post
Also, is your default meter "I1pro" or is it an i1 Display Pro (i1D3)? The reason I ask is that I didn't think it was possible to use a spectral sample file with an i1Pro spectro (you could use a matrix), but you can use spectral sample with an i1 Display Pro colorimeter.
It is an i1D3. Thanks for spottng. I have fixed it in my post. My understanding is that spectral samples are not supported in HCFR measurements. Some corrections are eventually pre-loaded I1D3 (factory), but this is not the case. What is my guess (but @zoyd may clarify the opposite), is that Zoyd's correction results in a matrix, whose evidence we don't have at user level.

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