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post #11701 of 11720 Old 06-14-2019, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Almost by definition, tone mapping will be reducing the brightness of highlights. I believe that’s why some people recommend turning it off during calibration. However, it would also mean that hard clipping will happen at a lower input level.
I'd love to get your input on this, because I have a different theory on tone mapping and the use of BT.2390 roll-off by different manufacturers.

Not all manufacturers wind up with an idealized roll-off. If having it off, it should cause a hard clip. But let's say the set employs a roll-off and you do not select it, instead trying to get a hard-clip in the software. This would skew the mfrs tone mapping at the high end.

In the same way, trying to match an idealized roll-off versus one the manufacturer used would potentially change the coordinates of the high end gamma 10/11/20 pt adjustments, which can also skew an employed tone map by the manufacturer.

That being the case, do you think it would be worth it to use the override targets to more closely approximate the roll-off the mfr employed using the NW settings to accomplish this. You'll still get that pop on the EOTF PQ line, but the positioning of the points should be closer to keeping the mfr tone map in place with a bit less distortion.

It's my opinion that if a manufacturer doesn't do a roll-off, then having bt.2390 off and matching as closely as possible is ideal. But if the sets do employ a roll-off, considering there is only so much you can do with the 20pt adjustments to manipulate the angle of the roll-off, rather than fighting the tone map employed, one should, so to speak, turn into the skid so not to skew the mfr. implemented tone curve, which could cause more issues toward the NW tone map.

What are your thoughts on this?
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post #11702 of 11720 Old 06-14-2019, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajc9988 View Post
But if the sets do employ a roll-off, considering there is only so much you can do with the 20pt adjustments to manipulate the angle of the roll-off, rather than fighting the tone map employed, one should, so to speak, turn into the skid so not to skew the mfr. implemented tone curve, which could cause more issues toward the NW tone map.
Have a look at the following post (and the post preceding it):

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57675162

I was essentially doing exactly what you're saying (if I interpret it correctly), i.e., adjust the near white roll-off parameters to match the manufacturer's curve.
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post #11703 of 11720 Old 06-14-2019, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ebr9999 View Post
I mean what I find in display type as WRGB OLED (LG B7(2017))

It is an i1D3. Thanks for spottng. I have fixed it in my post. My understanding is that spectral samples are not supported in HCFR measurements. Some corrections are eventually pre-loaded I1D3 (factory), but this is not the case. What is my guess (but @zoyd may clarify the opposite), is that Zoyd's correction results in a matrix, whose evidence we don't have at user level.
The HCFR spectral sample files are what you select in the Display Type dropdown and you chose Zoyd's WRGB OLED ccss file. The files are normally located in C:\Users\<your windows id>\AppData\Roaming\color.

Your results show that Zoyd's C7 sample for the i1D3 can be very accurate on a C8.

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post #11704 of 11720 Old 06-15-2019, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post
The HCFR spectral sample files are what you select in the Display Type dropdown and you chose Zoyd's WRGB OLED ccss file. The files are normally located in C:\Users\<your windows id>\AppData\Roaming\color.

Your results show that Zoyd's C7 sample for the i1D3 can be very accurate on a C8.
I was looking for ccss in the wrong place .... I agree, If you also take in account the sistematic error you have on red luminance (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...re-update.html), the diffeernce of what read was by Zoyd on his pannel and what I have read on mine is very low. Unlucky it is only a single case.

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post #11705 of 11720 Old 06-15-2019, 12:51 PM
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How do I best balance RGB?

Everybody,

I am trying to calibrate HDR on an LG 2016 OLED. When I do a grayscale measure, and display RGB...

- I see that as IRE increases from left to right, the numbers for RGB increase, as well. What do the numbers represent?
- I often hear advice to simply balance RGB for a given IRE. With three different numbers, how do I best balance them?
- do I try to get them as close as I can to the D65 dashed line?
- do I pick the one that will require the smallest adjustments to the other two, and move them?
- something else

Thank you, in advance...
Ron
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post #11706 of 11720 Old 06-15-2019, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RIppolito View Post
Everybody,



I am trying to calibrate HDR on an LG 2016 OLED. When I do a grayscale measure, and display RGB...



- I see that as IRE increases from left to right, the numbers for RGB increase, as well. What do the numbers represent?

- I often hear advice to simply balance RGB for a given IRE. With three different numbers, how do I best balance them?

- do I try to get them as close as I can to the D65 dashed line?

- do I pick the one that will require the smallest adjustments to the other two, and move them?

- something else



Thank you, in advance...

Ron
You have to make sure you selected the right display profile.

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post #11707 of 11720 Old 06-15-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by RIppolito View Post
Everybody,

I am trying to calibrate HDR on an LG 2016 OLED. When I do a grayscale measure, and display RGB...

- I see that as IRE increases from left to right, the numbers for RGB increase, as well. What do the numbers represent?
- I often hear advice to simply balance RGB for a given IRE. With three different numbers, how do I best balance them?
- do I try to get them as close as I can to the D65 dashed line?
- do I pick the one that will require the smallest adjustments to the other two, and move them?
- something else

Thank you, in advance...
Ron
Depends on 2pt or 10/11/20pt.

For 2pt (offset and gain, which sets can use other names for those), you are trying to balance RGB for the lowest dE WITHOUT gamma included.

For that, you have the 20/80, 30/80, 20/100, 30/100 patches paired to try to reduce it to fully balanced.

What I personally do, because how it is implemented on some sets, is to ONLY change blue and red at the high end, whether with 100 or 80% patterns, as changing green can effect contrast features on some sets and thereby effect the tone map a bit.

For the low end, some say do NOT change the offset because it can throw off your near black significantly! It can also throw off the overall tone map is argued as well.

Personally, what I like to do is to minimize what changes are done at offset, as it can raise black levels and does throw off for HDR anything around the 10% and below mark. But, because I focus on the middle first, then the low end, I do allow the lowest end to go a little further off.

I do full grayscale sweeps. Then do the high end (gain) values for RGB. Then, I do another sweep. I move only one offset color at a time, then do another sweep. Then repeat while trying to maintain low end without overly increasing the errors there (no more than 1.5 dE on 5%) while getting the middle closer. Then rebalance the gain. Continue doing sweeps while monitoring the overall dE average for the grayscale.

Now, that means I WILL have more errors at the near black than others here. Facts ARE facts. But I can, while using dE ICtCp with my set, get it to 0.48 dE across the grayscale before I ever begin the grayscale with gamma using the 10/11/20 point corrections. Most will tell you just let the low end be because you can still correct it out on the 10/11/20 pt with gamma corrections. Probably a better practice overall and what I would do if I was calibrating someone else's display.

In any case, with 10/11/20pt correction, you need to switch it in preferences to include gamma in the dE calculations. Then, you try to balance all three of them (except at 100% where you only change red and blue) to 100% while also matching the Y (luminance) value. By switching on to include gamma with dE, it will automatically include the luminance in the target value.

Now, you should try to adjust the near white slope target values to match whatever your display does. If it hard-clips, leave BT.2390 not selected. If it rolls off at the high-end, then select BT.2390. You may click override targets, then change the NW value and % value until the roll-off target roughly matches the natural curve at the near white for your set. Then you can start your gamma passes. Many like to sweep downward when doing gamma, starting at 100% and moving to 5% when doing gamma. It may take multiple passes to minimize the error values. For my own sets, I target getting under 0.3 dE avg across all of gray scale with gamma. Some sets just can never get that low (and some projectors for sure). If you can get to 0.22 dE with gamma, you are golden. In the 0.15-0.18 range, I have rarely achieved that with my sets, but if you can get it with yours, blessed. That is more than anyone really could ask. Technically, anything under 0.5 dE you could move on to CMS, but try for lower than 0.4 dE if you have the time and patience and your set or projector allows for it with tuning.
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post #11708 of 11720 Old 06-15-2019, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajc9988 View Post
In any case, with 10/11/20pt correction, you need to switch it in preferences to include gamma in the dE calculations. Then, you try to balance all three of them (except at 100% where you only change red and blue) to 100% while also matching the Y (luminance) value. By switching on to include gamma with dE, it will automatically include the luminance in the target value.
Just to elaborate on this point:
You can match Y to Y-Target regardless of “w/ gamma” or “w/o gamma”. The advantage with using the former for 20pt is that you don’t need to look at Y; when R/G/B are all at 100% then Y automatically matches Y-Target.
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post #11709 of 11720 Old 06-16-2019, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Just to elaborate on this point:
You can match Y to Y-Target regardless of “w/ gamma” or “w/o gamma”. The advantage with using the former for 20pt is that you don’t need to look at Y; when R/G/B are all at 100% then Y automatically matches Y-Target.
Thank you both for the helpful suggestions. However, I still have a (basic) question...

For any specific IRE column, when I display the RGB values instead of xyY, I usually have three different values for R, G, and B. With the direction to 'balance RGB', should I...
- adjust all three to the D65 dashed line?
- hold one constant, and adjust the other to it?

Once all three are in balance, do I move all three in unison to adjust luminance?

Thank you in advance...
Ron

PS - what do the numbers for RGB represent? Do they represent the component of that color (in nits) in that sample?
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post #11710 of 11720 Old 06-16-2019, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RIppolito View Post
Thank you both for the helpful suggestions. However, I still have a (basic) question...

For any specific IRE column, when I display the RGB values instead of xyY, I usually have three different values for R, G, and B. With the direction to 'balance RGB', should I...
- adjust all three to the D65 dashed line?
- hold one constant, and adjust the other to it?

Once all three are in balance, do I move all three in unison to adjust luminance?
As mentioned previously, it's much easier to look at the R/G/B percentages in the "Selected color" window. If you use the "w/gamma" option, having all three colours at 100% means you have both the correct white balance, and the correct luminance.
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post #11711 of 11720 Old 06-16-2019, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
As mentioned previously, it's much easier to look at the R/G/B percentages in the "Selected color" window. If you use the "w/gamma" option, having all three colours at 100% means you have both the correct white balance, and the correct luminance.
Thanks, Dominic. I missed the point of using 'with gamma' will get me where I need to be...
Ron
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post #11712 of 11720 Old 06-16-2019, 08:51 PM
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I'm slowly becoming experienced at calibrating my 1080p projector, and have been happy with the results.
I've actually run the calibration about 4 or 5 times now, as I learn more and more with each run, and refine my method.

However, sometime in the future I will be buying a 4K OLED or QLED television, and obviously would like to calibrate it as well.
I have only glossed over the posts regarding modern displays, but it appears that it is not as straight-forward as calibrating based on HD709.

Has anyone written a definitive guide (using HCFR) to calibrating these modern displays?
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post #11713 of 11720 Old 06-16-2019, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RIppolito View Post
Thanks, Dominic. I missed the point of using 'with gamma' will get me where I need to be...
Ron
Most people find that the Green is fairly close, so adjust the Red and Blue around the Green.
With my display (old 1080p projector) it's all a bit of a compromise - so after doing the initial 2 pt, then a full sweep (10 or 20 pt), I fine tune the middle area (say 40 - 70%) to get it as close as I can without stuffing up the low IRE or the high IRE too much.
The general opinion is that the middle area is the most important, followed by low, and then high.
Have fun.
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post #11714 of 11720 Old 06-17-2019, 12:02 AM
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If you adjust 100% with 10/20p you should do it first. This is the reference point for the calculations.

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post #11715 of 11720 Old 06-30-2019, 02:20 AM
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Hi,
Wegen i User the masciola hdr10 patter.,what musst i Change in the settings?
Sorry for my Bad english.

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post #11716 of 11720 Old 07-10-2019, 10:42 PM
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No one?

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post #11717 of 11720 Old 07-11-2019, 12:18 AM
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Normally no one would want to say anything discouraging about poor English, but that post was actually pretty difficult to understand. Maybe try again with different words?
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post #11718 of 11720 Old 07-11-2019, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael2907 View Post
Hi,
Wegen i User the masciola hdr10 patter.,what musst i Change in the settings?
Maybe I can try a better wording : "Because I use the Masciola HDR10 patterns, what settings should I modify ?"
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post #11719 of 11720 Old 07-11-2019, 04:24 PM
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Maybe I can try a better wording : "Because I use the Masciola HDR10 patterns, what settings should I modify ?"
Ok at least the wording is very clear now The question is a big one however: I will have to let a better expert try to answer it ..
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post #11720 of 11720 Old 07-11-2019, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2907 View Post
Hi,
Wegen i User the masciola hdr10 patter.,what musst i Change in the settings?
Sorry for my Bad english.

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Assuming you've set up HCFR for HDR, there used to be one setting that needed to be changed when using Masciola's disc patterns - "Gray levels rounding assumption -> Use 10 bit targets (HDR10 Blu-ray). However, I believe that is no longer necessary with the latest patterns.
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