HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 393 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11761 of 11804 Old 08-13-2019, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Randomite View Post
Thanks Dominic. Another question if you would be so kind: If I wanted to forego the WCG filter on this projector and just wanted to calibrate without it, would I still use Rec2020/P3, or would I instead use Rec2020 or Rec2020/709?

Thanks again for your insight!
You cannot calibrate to a wider gamut than what the display is capable of. This means one would normally "never" calibrate to Rec2020. With the WCF filter you can probably approach P3, without the filter you should be able to get Rec709 or better.

Keep in mind Rec2020/709 and Rec2020/P3 are just subsets of Rec2020 for calibration. This is similar to using Rec709 75%/75% - you won't be "losing" gamut by doing so, just optimizing the calibration based on those points.
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post #11762 of 11804 Old 08-13-2019, 07:05 AM
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If you have the x-rite software that comes with the meter installed, uninstall it or shut down the process using the task manager.
Hi, yes, that was the problem, user problem has been resolved, all good now : https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post58373942
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post #11763 of 11804 Old 08-13-2019, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You cannot calibrate to a wider gamut than what the display is capable of. This means one would normally "never" calibrate to Rec2020. With the WCF filter you can probably approach P3, without the filter you should be able to get Rec709 or better.

Keep in mind Rec2020/709 and Rec2020/P3 are just subsets of Rec2020 for calibration. This is similar to using Rec709 75%/75% - you won't be "losing" gamut by doing so, just optimizing the calibration based on those points.
That helps, thank you! When I selected Rec2020/709, the measured gamut without the filter exceeded the triangle on the CIE diagram. Does that mean I am covering "more" of the gamut than 709? If so, I should be targeting Rec2020/P3 correct?

If I exceed 709 but can't quite hit P3, what should my goal be? Just getting dE as low as possible for P3 targets?
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post #11764 of 11804 Old 08-13-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 494930 View Post
Is the ChromeCast pattern generator working correctly? When trying to calibrate tonight the Chromecast kept disappearing from the generator list every 10/15mins. Just wondering if its a bug in the software or my crappy laptop.
In case it helps anyone else with this issue, I discovered that toggling the Airplane mode On/Off would cure it without having to close any programs.
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post #11765 of 11804 Old 08-14-2019, 04:47 AM
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That helps, thank you! When I selected Rec2020/709, the measured gamut without the filter exceeded the triangle on the CIE diagram. Does that mean I am covering "more" of the gamut than 709? If so, I should be targeting Rec2020/P3 correct?

If I exceed 709 but can't quite hit P3, what should my goal be? Just getting dE as low as possible for P3 targets?
For SDR there’s no advantage in having a wider gamut than Rec709 unless you prefer oversaturated colours.

For HDR you want the gamut as wide as possible.

If you calibrate in Rec2020/Rec709 colour space you’re not limiting the gamut to Rec709; you’re just using the Rec709 primary colours as the frame of reference for measuring the colour accuracy.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-14-2019 at 05:00 AM.
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post #11766 of 11804 Old 08-14-2019, 10:59 AM
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I have a samsung 50nu7200 (https://www.samsung.com/us/support/o...mart-tv-nu7200) and i'm trying to do some basic measurements, but i'm not sure which display to choose in HCFR?

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post #11767 of 11804 Old 08-14-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
For SDR there’s no advantage in having a wider gamut than Rec709 unless you prefer oversaturated colours.

For HDR you want the gamut as wide as possible.

If you calibrate in Rec2020/Rec709 colour space you’re not limiting the gamut to Rec709; you’re just using the Rec709 primary colours as the frame of reference for measuring the colour accuracy.
OK, I'm not sure what's going on here but I must be doing something wrong right? Check out these HDR saturation results.

1. I used the Rec2020/P3 standard in HCFR.
2. I used the P3 in Rec2020 saturation patterns (2160p 24Hz) from Mehanik's HDR10 pattern set, and a colormunki display to measure them.
3. The patterns were Direct Played over Plex on an Nvidia Shield.
4. The shield Display settings are set to use 4K resolution, YUV 420 10-bit Rec. 2020

Saturation is off all over the place, but the weirdest of all being that the 50%,75% and 100% green fall on more or less the exact same x,y coordinates. They even visually look the same. 75%, 100% saturation on Cyan behaves similarly.

I tried the 50%, 75% and 100% Green saturations on my Samsung KS8000 TV and could at the very least visually tell a difference.

Could this at all be a problem with HDMI bandwidth?

[Edit to tag @NxNW ]
Attached Thumbnails
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Name:	2019-08-14 13_55_11-HCFR Colorimeter - 3.5.1.4 - [HT3550 Cinema 2020-P3 Post-Calibration.chc].png
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Name:	2019-08-14 13_52_00-HCFR Colorimeter - 3.5.1.4 - [HT3550 Cinema 2020-P3 Post-Calibration.chc].png
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Name:	2019-08-14 13_53_18-HCFR Colorimeter - 3.5.1.4 - [HT3550 Cinema 2020-P3 Post-Calibration.chc].png
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Last edited by Randomite; 08-14-2019 at 12:21 PM. Reason: Tagging user
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post #11768 of 11804 Old 08-14-2019, 01:44 PM
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OK, I'm not sure what's going on here but I must be doing something wrong right?
I need to look at the HCFR data file to understand it better, not just a screenshot.
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post #11769 of 11804 Old 08-14-2019, 01:50 PM
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I need to look at the HCFR data file to understand it better, not just a screenshot.
Forum's not letting me attach chc file so I had to zip it. I have also uploaded the chc file to my google drive at this link if you prefer.
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File Type: zip HT3550 Cinema 2020-P3.zip (6.4 KB, 3 views)
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post #11770 of 11804 Old 08-14-2019, 03:15 PM
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Forum's not letting me attach chc file so I had to zip it. I have also uploaded the chc file to my google drive at this link if you prefer.
I have never used Plex server to display test patterns. Not sure if something gets transcoded even if you set it to Direct Play.

Can your projector be placed in HDR mode manually? If so it's much easier to use HCFR's internal pattern generator.
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post #11771 of 11804 Old 08-14-2019, 03:29 PM
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I have never used Plex server to display test patterns. Not sure if something gets transcoded even if you set it to Direct Play.

Can your projector be placed in HDR mode manually? If so it's much easier to use HCFR's internal pattern generator.
Unfortunately, no. The projector only switches to HDR mode when it detects an HDR signal. I tried loading the patterns on to a usb and sticking it in to the projector, but while the projector switched to HDR mode, on the info page it reported a REC. 709 signal instead of the expected BT. 2020 signal.

Could this be a defect with the projector though? Or is it definitely a signal issue? What would even cause all the green saturation points to merge like that?
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post #11772 of 11804 Old 08-14-2019, 03:53 PM
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Could this be a defect with the projector though? Or is it definitely a signal issue? What would even cause all the green saturation points to merge like that?
I don’t have enough information to be able to draw any conclusions, but it’s extremely unlikely that the projector would be so far off. With such gross saturation errors the picture will be unwatchable.

Are these measurements taken with the default projector settings? With or without the P3 filter?
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post #11773 of 11804 Old 08-14-2019, 06:14 PM
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I don’t have enough information to be able to draw any conclusions, but it’s extremely unlikely that the projector would be so far off. With such gross saturation errors the picture will be unwatchable.

Are these measurements taken with the default projector settings? With or without the P3 filter?
These measurements were without the P3 filter. All I did was adjust white balance to balance out the grayscale.

Watching HDR content on Netflix does look pretty saturated, and trees sometimes tends to look closer to neon green.
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post #11774 of 11804 Old 08-14-2019, 06:51 PM
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These measurements were without the P3 filter. All I did was adjust white balance to balance out the grayscale.

Watching HDR content on Netflix does look pretty saturated, and trees sometimes tends to look closer to neon green.
What happens when you turn on the P3 filter? The colours should get even more saturated, in theory.
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post #11775 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 10:05 AM
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What happens when you turn on the P3 filter? The colours should get even more saturated, in theory.
Hey Dominic, so I spent more hours than I care to admit last night in the cave and figured out a few things. The below is calibrating in HDR with the P3 filter on.

1. Previously, my grayscale measurements were somehow limiting the gamut targets in the CIE diagram on default settings. i.e. once I took grayscale readings, the triangle would shrink and distort. To overcome this I had to enable "Override Targets" in the EOTF section of the References menu. This showed me the full gamut targets. Saturation measures done with the gamut set to Rec 2020/P3 made more sense now.

2. I had a hell of a time getting the grayscale under control with the P3 filter on (was much easier with it off). Also 100% White luminance was bad uncalibrated (8 ftL).. but after my fairly drastic adjustments (Red Gain 103, Green gain 84, Blue gain 78) it was worse (5 ftL). I don't know if bad meter placement is playing a part here.

I've attached the Pre-calibration measures and Post calibration measures if you want to take a look.

On the post calibration, can you comment on whether this is a decent result? I feel like the pre-calibration pattern of color saturation tracked better just "shifted" from their targets due to the terrible white point, whereas, post-calibration I lost 3 ftL of peak output and the saturation patterns were impacted.
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File Type: zip HT3550 Cinema 2020-P3 Yes Filter pre-calibration.zip (6.8 KB, 2 views)
File Type: zip HT3550 Cinema 2020-P3 Yes Filter post-calibration.zip (23.1 KB, 5 views)
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post #11776 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 12:24 PM
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Hey Dominic, so I spent more hours than I care to admit last night in the cave and figured out a few things. The below is calibrating in HDR with the P3 filter on.

1. Previously, my grayscale measurements were somehow limiting the gamut targets in the CIE diagram on default settings. i.e. once I took grayscale readings, the triangle would shrink and distort. To overcome this I had to enable "Override Targets" in the EOTF section of the References menu. This showed me the full gamut targets. Saturation measures done with the gamut set to Rec 2020/P3 made more sense now.
Do you have a really large screen? 17 nits peak is very low even for SDR (usually 50 nits), to get any kind of HDR effect you need at least 60, preferably >100 nits. I would use the native WB which gives you 27 nits even though it's overly blue (actually cyan).

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2. I had a hell of a time getting the grayscale under control with the P3 filter on (was much easier with it off). Also 100% White luminance was bad uncalibrated (8 ftL).. but after my fairly drastic adjustments (Red Gain 103, Green gain 84, Blue gain 78) it was worse (5 ftL). I don't know if bad meter placement is playing a part here.
What meter are you using? Typically it should keep it about 2' aways from the screen so that you can optimize the direction without making it read its own shadow.

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I've attached the Pre-calibration measures and Post calibration measures if you want to take a look.

On the post calibration, can you comment on whether this is a decent result? I feel like the pre-calibration pattern of color saturation tracked better just "shifted" from their targets due to the terrible white point, whereas, post-calibration I lost 3 ftL of peak output and the saturation patterns were impacted.
Yes, I agree that the pre-calibration saturation tracks better, ignoring the WB error. Unfortunately HCFR does not allow you to change the WB when using Rec2020/P3. What you can do is probably just use Rec2020 but focus only on the lower saturation point, those that are within the P3 for Rec709 boundaries. You will need to increase the number of saturation point measurements to do that.
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post #11777 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Do you have a really large screen?
120" Silver Ticket 1.0 Gain Gray screen.

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What meter are you using? Typically it should keep it about 2' aways from the screen so that you can optimize the direction without making it read its own shadow.
It's an X-Rite ColorMunki Display. Currently I have it much closer than that, about 6-8 inches. Will 2' work for typical 11.11% window patterns?

I'll take more readings after moving the meter back. I'm also sending my findings to benQ. Your comments on the brightness are in line with my fears. I just want to make sure I'm measuring correctly before submitting the information as proof of an issue. In normal viewing the image doesn't seem too dim, but then again, this is my first projector.
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post #11778 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 03:34 PM
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By the way, Silver Ticket's website claims their neutral white screen has a gain of 1.1

Furthermore they claim their grey product has a gain of 1.0, which I believe was repeated in the post above.

I have the grey screen myself.

It's not very grey, but when I put an ordinary sheet of white paper on the screen it's not hard to see how much darker it is. Meanwhile the surface appears to be be perfectly "Lambertian" , with no preferential direction of scattering. Light leaving the surface is perfectly diffuse, just like the sheet of paper.

Based on my understanding of the very nature of the word "gain" , I doubt either of the manufacturers claimed figures above could possibly be accurate.

But don't take my word for it, the Wirecutter people measured the hell out of it and, although they still chose this screen as their #1 pick for the best all around screen, they were careful to point out the white material fell well short of it's claimed "1.1" gain, measuring more like 0.95 by their calculations.


https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/be...jector-screen/ (link still points to an article about silver ticket as of late 2019)

Given that Silver Tickets own website, and even a simple test like the sheet of paper test described above, shows that the grey material must have significantly less gain than white, there's simply no way I would believe their claim of perfect "unity" gain for an obviously grey, obviously non-retro-reflective surface.

Combining the Wirecutters findings about white (0.95) with Silver Tickets publicly acknowledged difference between white and grey (-0.1), it might be more realistic to use a value of 0.85 in your calculations. Or at the very least into your expectations.
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post #11779 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 03:35 PM
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120" Silver Ticket 1.0 Gain Gray screen.



It's an X-Rite ColorMunki Display. Currently I have it much closer than that, about 6-8 inches. Will 2' work for typical 11.11% window patterns?

I'll take more readings after moving the meter back. I'm also sending my findings to benQ. Your comments on the brightness are in line with my fears. I just want to make sure I'm measuring correctly before submitting the information as proof of an issue. In normal viewing the image doesn't seem too dim, but then again, this is my first projector.
Your readings seem to be very low. The Projector Central review shows 120 nits with WCG off and BC on, on a 90" screen. A 120" would give you about 65 nits for white, or 60 nits for grey, with the same settings.
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post #11780 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 03:43 PM
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Your readings seem to be very low. The Projector Central review shows 120 nits with WCG off and BC on, on a 90" screen. A 120" would give you about 65 nits for white, or 60 nits for grey, with the same settings.
Could having the meter so close to the screen cause the low readings? Chris Eberle got 90 nits in HDR mode with the WCG on when measuring off of a 92" 1.3 gain screen.

In his review he mentions "Luminance readings were taken with a Spectracal C6 tri-stimulus colorimeter facing a 92” diagonal Stewart Filmscreen Luminesse with Studiotek 130 material, gain 1.3, from a 10-foot distance." Does that mean the colorimeter was 10 ft away from the screen - cause I assumed it meant the PJ was 10ft away.
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post #11781 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 04:17 PM
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Could having the meter so close to the screen cause the low readings? Chris Eberle got 90 nits in HDR mode with the WCG on when measuring off of a 92" 1.3 gain screen.

In his review he mentions "Luminance readings were taken with a Spectracal C6 tri-stimulus colorimeter facing a 92” diagonal Stewart Filmscreen Luminesse with Studiotek 130 material, gain 1.3, from a 10-foot distance." Does that mean the colorimeter was 10 ft away from the screen - cause I assumed it meant the PJ was 10ft away.
Distance itself should not make a difference, assuming it’s aiming at the correct angle, not reading outside the pattern window, and not reading its own shadow.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-15-2019 at 06:53 PM.
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post #11782 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 04:18 PM
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Could having the meter so close to the screen cause the low readings? Chris Eberle got 90 nits in HDR mode with the WCG on when measuring off of a 92" 1.3 gain screen.

In his review he mentions "Luminance readings were taken with a Spectracal C6 tri-stimulus colorimeter facing a 92” diagonal Stewart Filmscreen Luminesse with Studiotek 130 material, gain 1.3, from a 10-foot distance." Does that mean the colorimeter was 10 ft away from the screen - cause I assumed it meant the PJ was 10ft away.
Dominic beat me to it: all the meters we're talking about so far (yours, both reviewers mentioned) work best close to the screen. There are some meters that look like rifle scopes, very telephoto, very narrow field of view. You can set them up way across the room. Every once in awhile you might really mess up meter position I suppose but probably not a factor here. Does your setup basically look like this?
http://www.curtpalme.com/images/HCFR_Spyder2.jpg
If so you're probably fine...
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post #11783 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 06:36 PM
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Does your setup basically look like this?
http://www.curtpalme.com/images/HCFR_Spyder2.jpg
If so you're probably fine...
Here is what my setup looks like. There is a bit of a reflection of the top of the colorimeter onto the screen, note those two bright spots above the shadow of the meter.

Also wanted to confirm: Is the "Y" value reported in HCFR when I read a 100% white pattern the peak luminance in nits?

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post #11784 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
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Here is what my setup looks like. There is a bit of a reflection of the top of the colorimeter onto the screen, note those two bright spots above the shadow of the meter.

Also wanted to confirm: Is the "Y" value reported in HCFR when I read a 100% white pattern the peak luminance in nits?
Y unless otherwise stated is nits.


Your setup doesn't look like you're catching much shadow if any.



Honestly you could just try resetting ALL of your HCFR preferences. I seem to remember there was a pretty blunt technique that involved deleting (sorry! renaming! always rename, don't actually trash it!) some .ini file in the HCFR program folder. Resetting could help you a lot: Any time you're touching something that says "Override Targets" you've gone into very tall grass. You need a lot of experience to find your way out.


In the file you uploaded titled P3 Yes Filter post.. the Gray Scale view shows level 100 measuring at 17 nits. But if you switch to Primaries and Secondaries view you also measured "White" at 42.8 nits in the very same file.


Try to recall what you did to make those two readings. If the appearance of the two different test pattern generation events didn't look crazy different to your eyes, there must be a weird preferences issue somewhere.


And let's remember Dominic's point is very salient here, this device does not in any way actually *possess* the attribute of "high dynamic range". It's an SDR device. There's a lot of secret sauce baked into the HT3550's tone mapping for this reason, as Chris Eberle put it "BenQ’s HDR-PRO processing which takes few liberties with saturation tracking to create an HDR effect better-suited for projectors." Go easy on yourself. Spending a long time trying to achieve the same response displayed by your flat panel is not realistic.
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post #11785 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 08:52 PM
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Also wanted to confirm: Is the "Y" value reported in HCFR when I read a 100% white pattern the peak luminance in nits?
Yes, assuming the HDMI range is set correctly.
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In the file you uploaded titled P3 Yes Filter post.. the Gray Scale view shows level 100 measuring at 17 nits. But if you switch to Primaries and Secondaries view you also measured "White" at 42.8 nits in the very same file.
The 42.8 nits looks like some kind of initialization value; i.e., not a real measurement.
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post #11787 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post

The 42.8 nits looks like some kind of initialization value; i.e., not a real measurement.
Whoa. I didn't know HCFR would do such a thing.

And I thought I was so clever to look there 😞
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post #11788 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 09:52 PM
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Yes, assuming the HDMI range is set correctly.
My output device (Sony X700) is sending YCbCr 4:2:2 with "Deep Color Output" set to Auto and "HDMI mode" on the projector is set to Auto (other values include RGB Full, RGB Limited, YUV Full, YUV Limited).

Peak Luminance measured in Rec. 709 Cinema mode was around 38 nits which also seems quite low. I'm trying out the free version of Lightspace tonight to see if there's any difference. Wish me luck!
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post #11789 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 09:52 PM
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Whoa. I didn't know HCFR would do such a thing.

And I thought I was so clever to look there 😞
Haha and I was thinking there was a ray of hope for my brightness woes!
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post #11790 of 11804 Old 08-15-2019, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
Honestly you could just try resetting ALL of your HCFR preferences. I seem to remember there was a pretty blunt technique that involved deleting (sorry! renaming! always rename, don't actually trash it!) some .ini file in the HCFR program folder. Resetting could help you a lot: Any time you're touching something that says "Override Targets" you've gone into very tall grass. You need a lot of experience to find your way out.
I'll rename the ini and give it a shot, thanks for the tip!

Honestly before I clicked "override targets" all the saturation targets on the CIE diagram got compressed for some reason but the projector kept giving saturation readings that coincided better with the full gamut saturation targets.
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