HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 419 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12541 of 12713 Old 05-06-2020, 11:41 AM
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Thanks a lot for the replies, much appreciated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
If you are talking about what they mean, the delta xy is calculated from where your measured points lie in relation to the primary and secondary colors specified in the program's colorspace settings. Y target and delta L are calculated from your actual 100% White measurement in the former, and color measurements compared to the calculated targets in the latter.
Sometimes I would improve either of those 3 indicators, yet dE would increase huh?

Do we want them all to be as close as possible to 0 That didn't help dE in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
If you're seeing low Y numbers or color clipping
How do you notice color clipping? I've seen a youtube reviewer doing a Calman demo being told in comments that he should have fixed it and he agreed but unsure what was so very wrong

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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Because gray scale does affect the colors, especially secondaries, it's always best to do grayscale before CMS adjustment.
My gray scale was good but then I messed with gamut and it went all over the place, I guess I'll have to fix both of them a bunch of times.

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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
These are closer to actual content and are easier for the display to meet. Remember that CMS controls only adjust a single point - specified by the software - for each color. The rest will depend on the linearity of the display, which in most cases is iffy at best
Figures, later on I will activate automatic gamut mapping with madVR & PotPlayer based on resolution & frame rate but I'd like the display itself to provide good'ish results on DVB-T and streaming services.

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The ultimate objective is to get the lowest dE, but delta-xy and delta-L provide additional details on what’s contributing to the dE. If your TV’s CMS provides H-S-L controls for each colour, use L to minimize delta-L and H-S to minimize delta-xy. The CIE diagram would further show you whether H or S needs to be adjusted, and in which direction. However, with many TVs there are interactions between them so you need to iterate.
All I have is 0-100 R/G/B sliders for primaries/secondaries such as

I guess all I should care for is dE as these R/G/B sliders aren't accurate enough for the other 3 indicators?

And sorry to ask again but how can I have <3 dE values for primaries/secondaries when my display gamut is quite a bit smaller than REC.709 What happens if those out-of-gamut tints are required? Display will clip them?

I'm also very surprised to see that 0.5dE yellow secondary is outside REC.709 huh :

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post #12542 of 12713 Old 05-06-2020, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by leescratchy View Post
Sometimes I would improve either of those 3 indicators, yet dE would increase huh?
Do we want them all to be as close as possible to 0 That didn't help dE in my experience.
That doesn't seem to make sense. Do you have a specific example?


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All I have is 0-100 R/G/B sliders for primaries/secondaries

I guess all I should care for is dE as these R/G/B sliders aren't accurate enough for the other 3 indicators?
I have not calibrated CMS using RGB controls, but in the lower left corner of the HCFR screen you also see the RGB % indicators. Try using those as a guide to bring everything to 100% using the RGB controls.

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post #12543 of 12713 Old 05-07-2020, 02:10 AM
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I'll come back with examples, Graeme Gill just told me:
Quote:
a lot of the TV calibration programs have a mode where the "delta E" ignores the L* error. What mode is your delta E in with Color.HCFR ?
This might explain indeed.

Good point thanks, I'll try those RGB % indicators but if "delta E" ignores the L* error in Color.HCFR as Graeme Gill suspects, I'm not sure what indicator I should trust?
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post #12544 of 12713 Old 05-07-2020, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by leescratchy View Post
I'll come back with examples, Graeme Gill just told me:

This might explain indeed.

Good point thanks, I'll try those RGB % indicators but if "delta E" ignores the L* error in Color.HCFR as Graeme Gill suspects, I'm not sure what indicator I should trust?
He's talking about de76 vs de2000 I bet. Under preferences .. advanced, select recommended. Or manually select de76 for grayscale and de2000 forCMS adjustments.

If you had de76 for everything it's possible L* was not adequately factored in. Don't use de76 while adjusting color.
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post #12545 of 12713 Old 05-07-2020, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by NxNW View Post
He's talking about de76 vs de2000 I bet. Under preferences .. advanced, select recommended. Or manually select de76 for grayscale and de2000 forCMS adjustments.

If you had de76 for everything it's possible L* was not adequately factored in. Don't use de76 while adjusting color.
OK thanks, I had it set to "recommended" with a clean install, yet getting "delta xy" "delta L" and "Y target" closer to 0 for primaries actually increased dE, also my 0.5 dE yellow secondary is outside of REC.709 so something fishy happening:

I'll be sure to run more tests and report back, but I'll leave it on "recommended" because I can't be hassled constantly switching depending on CMS adjustments or grayscale.

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post #12546 of 12713 Old 05-07-2020, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by leescratchy View Post
OK thanks, I had it set to "recommended" with a clean install, yet getting "delta xy" "delta L" and ”Y target” closer to 0 for primaries actually increased dE,
You should not try to get Y Target close to 0.

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post #12547 of 12713 Old 05-07-2020, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You should not try to get Y Target close to 0.
Fair enough, so all I should care for is dE and disregard the other 3 indicators? What are they here for then?
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post #12548 of 12713 Old 05-07-2020, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by leescratchy View Post
Fair enough, so all I should care for is dE and disregard the other 3 indicators? What are they here for then?
I already answered that question in my previous post.

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post #12549 of 12713 Old 05-07-2020, 01:00 PM
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I don't think you have, anyway a user manual explaining what "delta xy" "delta L" and ”Y target” are and which of them we want as close as possible to 0 would be nice to have as not everyone is a colorimetry expert, most users just want to have their display well calibrated and nothing more
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post #12550 of 12713 Old 05-07-2020, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
If you are talking about what they mean, the delta xy is calculated from where your measured points lie in relation to the primary and secondary colors specified in the program's colorspace settings. Y target and delta L are calculated from your actual 100% White measurement in the former, and color measurements compared to the calculated targets in the latter.

If you're seeing low Y numbers or color clipping, you can try bumping up the main color control 1 click. This can also happen if your 100% White luminance is higher than the rest of the colors can reach. In displays, color luminance and saturation are linked, so adjusting one impacts the other. Another thing to try is patterns with 75% saturation and 75% stimulus. These are closer to actual content and are easier for the display to meet. Remember that CMS controls only adjust a single point - specified by the software - for each color. The rest will depend on the linearity of the display, which in most cases is iffy at best.
Because gray scale does affect the colors, especially secondaries, it's always best to do grayscale before CMS adjustment.
Hi Royce, when you use patterns with 75% saturation and 75% stimulus, what are the xy targets and the Y target (is it for red still 21% of the value from 100% white)?.
Thanks for your help.
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post #12551 of 12713 Old 05-07-2020, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyNZ View Post
Hi Royce, when you use patterns with 75% saturation and 75% stimulus, what are the xy targets and the Y target (is it for red still 21% of the value from 100% white)?.
Thanks for your help.
You do not need to calculate target values when using current versions of HCFR. The program itself calculates those based on the colour space and gamma you choose, and the peak white it measures.

To answer your original question: for 75% saturation / 75% stimulus and gamma 2.2, red is still 21% of white; however, white itself is 57% of 100% white, so red is about 12% of 100% white.

Aren’t you glad HCFR if taking care of all of these?
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post #12552 of 12713 Old 05-07-2020, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You do not need to calculate target values when using current versions of HCFR. The program itself calculates those based on the colour space and gamma you choose, and the peak white it measures.
Hi Royce,
I've been following an old guide, could you explain to me how am I supposed to do it?
Cheers!
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post #12553 of 12713 Old 05-07-2020, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyNZ View Post
Hi Royce,
I've been following an old guide, could you explain to me how am I supposed to do it?
Cheers!
I'm not Royce.

Most of what the old guide describes still applies, but you don't need to calculate the targets as they are either displayed directly (Y Target), or graphically in the CIE diagram (Target xy) as well as numerically in the form of delta-xy.

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post #12554 of 12713 Old 05-08-2020, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by BillyNZ View Post
Hi Royce,
I've been following an old guide, could you explain to me how am I supposed to do it?
Cheers!
Sorry, but I don't own or use HCFR. Others in this thread can advise you on that.

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Hi everyone a simple question : is the luminance target reported in HCFR when you start The grayscale? In the pic attached you can see 26.8fL luminance after calibration but when I started the calibration in the same space there was 30.6, was that the Y target? If so my calibration is too below? Should I remake it with more light output? I hope Domenic you can provide your expertise in this matter. Thank you!
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post #12556 of 12713 Old 05-08-2020, 01:05 PM
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Hi everyone a simple question : is the luminance target reported in HCFR when you start The grayscale? In the pic attached you can see 26.8fL luminance after calibration but when I started the calibration in the same space there was 30.6, was that the Y target? If so my calibration is too below? Should I remake it with more light output? I hope Domenic you can provide your expertise in this matter. Thank you!
The real target for HDR would be 1000 nits or even 4000 nits. Since the projector obviously can’t produce that, HCFR lets you tone map everything down to the projector’s peak luminance. In some cases it will auto-populate that field based on the actual measurement.

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Very interesting thank you Dominic. So ‘how’ does HCFR indicate you the Y reference? At the beginning of the grayscale process as I start the 100% white reading the software reports x and y for white as 313 and 329 and below those last night there was 30.7 fL as for Y, is that the target measured by the software on the basis of the peak of brightness?If I could figure this out I would be finally more comfortable and confident in using HCFR. Thank you
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post #12558 of 12713 Old 05-10-2020, 01:22 PM
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I'm getting inconsistent gamma measurements with 20-point greyscale measures. I'm using an i1 colorimeter. When I run each measure individually I get a pretty consistent gamma line at 2.4. When I run all 20 points at one time I get higher peaks in the upper levels (the average is 2.43 with a max of 2.5). Does this indicate a problem with my device? Is there anything I can do...maybe the individual or full measurement is more reliable than the other?
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I'm getting inconsistent gamma measurements with 20-point greyscale measures. I'm using an i1 colorimeter. When I run each measure individually I get a pretty consistent gamma line at 2.4. When I run all 20 points at one time I get higher peaks in the upper levels (the average is 2.43 with a max of 2.5). Does this indicate a problem with my device? Is there anything I can do...maybe the individual or full measurement is more reliable than the other?
The issue of inconsistent gamma is likely caused by the TV, automatically adjusting the brightness based on what’s on the screen.

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post #12560 of 12713 Old 05-10-2020, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The issue of inconsistent gamma is likely caused by the TV, automatically adjusting the brightness based on what’s on the screen.

Thank you. It would seem this could be caused by the multiple rapid adjustments in the full run. I'll rely on the individual measurements.
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I'm not Royce.

Most of what the old guide describes still applies, but you don't need to calculate the targets as they are either displayed directly (Y Target), or graphically in the CIE diagram (Target xy) as well as numerically in the form of delta-xy.

Hi Dominic, thanks for the reply that was very helpful. When you use external patterns with 75% saturation, do you have to change a setting on HCFR or is it not needed and I should just follow the targets shown?
Cheers!.
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post #12562 of 12713 Old 05-11-2020, 04:50 AM
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Hi Dominic, thanks for the reply that was very helpful. When you use external patterns with 75% saturation, do you have to change a setting on HCFR or is it not needed and I should just follow the targets shown?
Cheers!.
You need to tell HCFR you’re using external patterns (Generator = "DVD Manual"), and also select "HDTV REC 709 (75%/75%)" Color Space Standard.

Of course you also need to ensure the external patterns are 75%/75%; some “75%” patterns are 75% stimulus but 100% saturation.

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post #12563 of 12713 Old 05-11-2020, 11:12 AM
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Guys. I'm intended to buy an i1 Display LT and I do have a green, blue, red filter. I'm thinking of using hcfr colorimeter software (version 3.5.1.4) with the lt. Do you guys think that it is possible to calibrate the sensor offset having a 6500k lamp reflecting through the filters and adjust the gain of the colorimeter for the drift ?
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Guys. I'm intended to buy an i1 Display LT and I do have a green, blue, red filter. I'm thinking of using hcfr colorimeter software (version 3.5.1.4) with the lt. Do you guys think that it is possible to calibrate the sensor offset having a 6500k lamp reflecting through the filters and adjust the gain of the colorimeter for the drift ?
I replied in the other thread. Please don't cross-post the same question in multiple threads, it's considered poor forum etiquette.

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You need to tell HCFR you’re using external patterns (Generator = "DVD Manual"), and also select "HDTV REC 709 (75%/75%)" Color Space Standard.

Of course you also need to ensure the external patterns are 75%/75%; some “75%” patterns are 75% stimulus but 100% saturation.
Great thanks for the clarification. Now the process is going to be much easier for me.
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post #12566 of 12713 Old 05-15-2020, 09:56 AM
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Hello
I want profiling a colorimeter to the i1 Pro spectrometer. The object is to create a correction color matrix which is to be used with the iD3. I would like to use this method.
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Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post
I've been posting this method periodically over the past few years:

For HCFR, profiling a colorimeter to the i1 Pro spectrometer is a simple matter. I'll use the i1 Display 3 as an example. The object is to create a correction color matrix which is to be used with the LT D3. It's explained, not too clearly, in the HCFR Help Menu/Advanced/XYZ Adjustment/Compute section.


1. Set up a calibration DVD to display the primary (red, green, blue) colors and white windows sequentially.
Use a 10% window at 100% amplitude.

2. Put both the D3 and the Pro on the TV panel so the meter sensor holes are vertically in the center of the window and right next to one another. (Or you can do each meter sequentially so that both are reading the same area.)

3. Set up HCFR for the i1 Pro meter and do a normal sensor black level calibration (Measures/Sensor/Calibrate...)

4. Run the primary colors and the white windows reading the data with HCFR set up for the i1 Pro meter. Save the run as something like "pro meter calibration.chc"

5. Set up HCFR for the D3 meter and do a normal sensor black level an 80% white level sync calibration (Measures/Sensor/Calibrate...)

6. Run the primary colors and the white windows reading the data with HCFR set up for the D3 meter. Save the run as something like "D3 meter calibration.chc"

7. Display the i1 Pro results on your computer and check the "Reference measure" box in the upper right hand corner.

8. Display the D3 results and click Advanced/Meter correction file/Create using existing reference measures.

9. Display the D3 results and click Advanced/Meter correction file/Save meter correction file... Save it with a name like "D3 calibration matrix 08-17-2014"

Larry
I don't understand point 5. Can anyone help me ?

Thanks
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Hello
I want profiling a colorimeter to the i1 Pro spectrometer. The object is to create a correction color matrix which is to be used with the iD3. I would like to use this method.


I don't understand point 5. Can anyone help me ?

Thanks
I don't believe that step is required for the i1D3.

Also, you can use the HCFR internal patterns and run Measures -> Primary Colors (F3), instead of using disc patterns. It shouldn’t affect the accuracy of the correction matrix as long as both meters read the same set of patterns.

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post #12568 of 12713 Old 05-15-2020, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Also, you can use the HCFR internal patterns and run Measures -> Primary Colors (F3), instead of using disc patterns. It shouldn’t affect the accuracy of the correction matrix as long as both meters read the same set of patterns.
Thank you for your answer.
I can use the Ted's lightspace disc. There is a target to position the probe on the screen so the probes are positioned in the same place. I make a measurement of the 4 primary colors 10% windows and 100% amplitude with the 2 probes.
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post #12569 of 12713 Old 05-22-2020, 05:04 PM
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Newbie question here. I'm just getting familiar with calibration and I'm trying to create a correction matrix for my i1d3 with my eye one pro 2. I read somewhere on here that using the Advanced -- Meter Correction File -- Build Using Simultaneous Measure was the best way to do this. Whenever I try to do that I get the following error: "To create a correction file, you must define a reference document using a reference colorimeter. Operation Cancelled."

Any idea how to fix this error?

Thanks
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post #12570 of 12713 Old 05-22-2020, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaluza-k View Post
Newbie question here. I'm just getting familiar with calibration and I'm trying to create a correction matrix for my i1d3 with my eye one pro 2. I read somewhere on here that using the Advanced -- Meter Correction File -- Build Using Simultaneous Measure was the best way to do this. Whenever I try to do that I get the following error: "To create a correction file, you must define a reference document using a reference colorimeter. Operation Cancelled."

Any idea how to fix this error?

Thanks
Read the third post up from yours, 12566.

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