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post #12691 of 12716 Old 06-23-2020, 04:16 PM
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I've seen the recommendation when using RPi (Pgenerator), which outputs as RGB Full, to set up patterns to output at 16-235, and place the television to accept video level.
Why is this preferred over setting up the patterns to output 0-255, and have the TV accept full signal?


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post #12692 of 12716 Old 06-28-2020, 04:07 AM
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Hi all,

I'm new here and recently got my LG CX OLED screen. I own i1 Display Pro that I use to calibrate my PC monitors.

I was wondering if there's a simple video guide on how to calibrate the TV for SDR, HDR, and Dolby Vision.
I read as much as I could but there are so many options and settings and steps, that it wasn't clear where to start and how to start.
I have no confidence that I'd be able to do it just by reading. However, I would like to give it a go as I do enjoy a DIY process, but since this TV is also used by other family members, I don't want to screw it up and cannot afford a significant amount of time figuring it out.
Is it even possible to get a relatively quick calibration on this TV?

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post #12693 of 12716 Old 07-02-2020, 08:50 AM
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how do you load custom test patern generators onto hcfr? i have a bunch of files i grabbed from here and want to test using the files but dont know how to incorporate it into hcfr. do i place the files in the HCFR folder?

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post #12694 of 12716 Old 07-02-2020, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohus View Post
how do you load custom test patern generators onto hcfr? i have a bunch of files i grabbed from here and want to test using the files but dont know how to incorporate it into hcfr. do i place the files in the HCFR folder?
You don’t load them onto HCFR. Just play back the pattern files (the same way you play your movies), and measure them using HCFR.
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post #12695 of 12716 Old 07-02-2020, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFC View Post
I've seen the recommendation when using RPi (Pgenerator), which outputs as RGB Full, to set up patterns to output at 16-235, and place the television to accept video level.
Why is this preferred over setting up the patterns to output 0-255, and have the TV accept full signal?


Thanks,
CFC
The cheap Test pattern thread says something different. The rPi has to give RGB full out, in any other output setting the rPi output isn't any longer bit perfect.

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post #12696 of 12716 Old 07-02-2020, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CadH View Post
The cheap Test pattern thread says something different. The rPi has to give RGB full out, in any other output setting the rPi output isn't any longer bit perfect.

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Thanks, I think you misunderstood what I wrote, or maybe I wrote it confusingly.
Code:
rPi: RGB-Full
Pattern software (HCFR, Calman): 16-235
TV: 16-235
vs.
Code:
rPi: RGB-Full
Pattern software (HCFR, Calman): 0-255
TV: 0-255
In either case, rPI remains at RGB-Full

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post #12697 of 12716 Old 07-02-2020, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFC View Post
Thanks, I think you misunderstood what I wrote, or maybe I wrote it confusingly.
Code:
rPi: RGB-Full
Pattern software (HCFR, Calman): 16-235
TV: 16-235
vs.
Code:
rPi: RGB-Full
Pattern software (HCFR, Calman): 0-255
TV: 0-255
In either case, rPI remains at RGB-Full

CFC
Since most video devices output 16-235 you want to make sure the TV is calibrated in the 16-235 mode.
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post #12698 of 12716 Old 07-02-2020, 01:50 PM
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I use usually the RGB full in every part of the chain.
My thought was: If I clip/change the outcoming Signal of the rPi while using RGB video at the projector that the contrast set is incorrect with yuv output.
Would be thankful for your answers!

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post #12699 of 12716 Old 07-03-2020, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CadH View Post
I use usually the RGB full in every part of the chain.
My thought was: If I clip/change the outcoming Signal of the rPi while using RGB video at the projector that the contrast set is incorrect with yuv output.
Would be thankful for your answers!

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If your output device was purly RGB without any processing, RGB full (0-255) for the whole chain would be correct.
But there is always some video processing necessary, at least color space conversion.

The videoprocessor needs some headroom to calculate all the image processing (color space conversion, scaling, sharpening etc.).
For RPi or GPU usage the RGB full (0-255) is only the transport layer for the RGB limited signal (16-235).

The recommended setting for RPi/GPU = RGB full (0-255)
Videoplayer/HCFR/pattern generator = RGB limited (16-235)
TV/projector/monitor = RGB limited (16-235)

I also had RGB full for my complete video chain (madVR).
After changing to RGB limited for my videoplayer and TV/projector I noticed a signifcant improvement in picture quality (sharpness, less noise, more details).

Warm regards,
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post #12700 of 12716 Old 07-04-2020, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
If your output device was purly RGB without any processing, RGB full (0-255) for the whole chain would be correct.

But there is always some video processing necessary, at least color space conversion.



The videoprocessor needs some headroom to calculate all the image processing (color space conversion, scaling, sharpening etc.).

For RPi or GPU usage the RGB full (0-255) is only the transport layer for the RGB limited signal (16-235).



The recommended setting for RPi/GPU = RGB full (0-255)

Videoplayer/HCFR/pattern generator = RGB limited (16-235)

TV/projector/monitor = RGB limited (16-235)



I also had RGB full for my complete video chain (madVR).

After changing to RGB limited for my videoplayer and TV/projector I noticed a signifcant improvement in picture quality (sharpness, less noise, more details).
While I write this text, I check both options. In HCFR I see no difference. I calibrated my pj like this: RPI RGB Full, HCFR RGB Full, PJ RGB Full.
When switching HCFR and PJ to RGB limited, the results stay the same.

Greetings,
Cornelius

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post #12701 of 12716 Old 07-05-2020, 02:28 PM
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Question HCFR calibration help for Epson 8700ub PJ

I'm trying to calibrate my Epson 8700ub and getting strange readings.
My setup is
  • HTPC (HCFR for pattern generation and measurements) > Denon AVR > Epson 8700ub > 140" DIY screen > I1 Display Pro (Rev A 2014 build)
  • Calibrate to Rec 709 and from what I've read about Epson CMS, its better to calibrate for 75% saturation points.

Problem I'm facing are below
  • Measured gamma too low - tried using 2.4 as starting point and even Epson's custom gamma setup using its built in graph. But my Gamma readings are quite low (1.55 avg). With custom gamma, I have to really crank the gamma calibration bars to almost max to get get an average reading of 2.2 but with this, the black details get completely lost
  • To achieve 75% saturation reading in the expected ball park, had to crank up RGBCMY saturation points very high (close to CMS limits supported by Epson) and the colors look weird post calibration.
I'm wondering if my 6yr old I1 Display Pro has drifted too far away and can't be relied on or it a setup issue in HCFR (or another component in the display chain).
Would appreciate any pointers about what to check as at this point, I've spent many hours without much success.
Attached my config and results below
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

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Name:	Basic Settings.jpg
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ID:	2753424  
Attached Files
File Type: zip Dynamic High Lamp-HCFR Results.zip (57.1 KB, 6 views)
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post #12702 of 12716 Old 07-05-2020, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhit View Post
I'm trying to calibrate my Epson 8700ub and getting strange readings.
My setup is
  • HTPC (HCFR for pattern generation and measurements) > Denon AVR > Epson 8700ub > 140" DIY screen > I1 Display Pro (Rev A 2014 build)
  • Calibrate to Rec 709 and from what I've read about Epson CMS, its better to calibrate for 75% saturation points.

Problem I'm facing are below[LIST][*] Measured gamma too low - tried using 2.4 as starting point and even Epson's custom gamma setup using its built in graph. But my Gamma readings are quite low (1.55 avg). With custom gamma, I have to really crank the gamma calibration bars to almost max to get get an average reading of 2.2 but with this, the black details get completely lost
It appears that the Greyscale measurements in the attached file are the Before values, whereas the Saturation measurements are the After values. To be able to make any sense of the results, all the measurements should correspond to the same set of adjustments. Ideally you should post two sets, one for the Before and another for the After measurements. Also, when drastic changes are made you should use at least 20 points for gamma, and 10 points for saturation.

Quote:
[*] To achieve 75% saturation reading in the expected ball park, had to crank up RGBCMY saturation points very high (close to CMS limits supported by Epson) and the colors look weird post calibration.
People use 75% saturation, as using 100% may lead to over-saturation at lower % (if the display cannot match 100%). In your case it's the opposite - the 100% is way over-saturated. As suggested above, having Before and After measurements will allow better assessments to be made.

Quote:
I'm wondering if my 6yr old I1 Display Pro has drifted too far away and can't be relied on or it a setup issue in HCFR (or another component in the display chain).
I don't think the i1DP is the culprit for your results.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 07-05-2020 at 03:32 PM.
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post #12703 of 12716 Old 07-05-2020, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhit View Post
I'm trying to calibrate my Epson 8700ub and getting strange readings.

My setup is
  • HTPC (HCFR for pattern generation and measurements) > Denon AVR > Epson 8700ub > 140" DIY screen > I1 Display Pro (Rev A 2014 build)
  • Calibrate to Rec 709 and from what I've read about Epson CMS, its better to calibrate for 75% saturation points.



Problem I'm facing are below
  • Measured gamma too low - tried using 2.4 as starting point and even Epson's custom gamma setup using its built in graph. But my Gamma readings are quite low (1.55 avg). With custom gamma, I have to really crank the gamma calibration bars to almost max to get get an average reading of 2.2 but with this, the black details get completely lost
  • To achieve 75% saturation reading in the expected ball park, had to crank up RGBCMY saturation points very high (close to CMS limits supported by Epson) and the colors look weird post calibration.

I'm wondering if my 6yr old I1 Display Pro has drifted too far away and can't be relied on or it a setup issue in HCFR (or another component in the display chain).

Would appreciate any pointers about what to check as at this point, I've spent many hours without much success.

Attached my config and results below
Which Model is the UB8700 in Europe? I have a TW9300, I think it'sthe pendant of the 5040.
Strange Gamma Results may because of your HTPC Output. Try to use, when HCFR internal TPG with GDI, to change between GDI 16-235 and 0-255. this could be the reason to get correct results.
If not, install madVR on your HTPC and use mad TPG. Before calibration starts, use the madlevelstweaker, slide the window on the Display of your projector and "force 0-255". Then you change in HCFR the pattern source from GDI to madTPG. This should work correctly.
Second Point: The Dynamic Mode has much light-output, but really bad RGB balance and Colorimetry. For rec.709 use the natural mode.
If your UB8700 has the DCI Filter, use the Digital Cinema Mode to calibrate on BT. 2020/Rec.709.
Usually the white point and maybe the gamma needs a Bit of adjusting. The natural Mode Shows out of the box a relatively nice Gamut and chromaticity is fine too.
In terms of DCI/BT.2020 chromaticity when using the Digital Cinema Mode you have to adjust definitely. Whether bt.2020 directly or P3/rec.709 in Bt.2020, out of the box the Epson (9300/9400) do not perform as good as possible.

I hope my answer help.
The eodis3 should be okay, not for perfect results, but for hobby enthusiast.

Greetings,
Cornelius

Edit: I searched the 8700ub and See that it is a FullHD PJ, without DCI Filter or anything else. But my message is the same, please no dynamic mode. And if you play UHD/HDR Material over the HTPC, you could calibrate the PJ for rec. 709 in bt.2020.

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Last edited by CadH; 07-05-2020 at 03:48 PM.
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post #12704 of 12716 Old 07-05-2020, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoro View Post
If your output device was purly RGB without any processing, RGB full (0-255) for the whole chain would be correct.
But there is always some video processing necessary, at least color space conversion.

The videoprocessor needs some headroom to calculate all the image processing (color space conversion, scaling, sharpening etc.).
For RPi or GPU usage the RGB full (0-255) is only the transport layer for the RGB limited signal (16-235).

The recommended setting for RPi/GPU = RGB full (0-255)
Videoplayer/HCFR/pattern generator = RGB limited (16-235)
TV/projector/monitor = RGB limited (16-235)

I also had RGB full for my complete video chain (madVR).
After changing to RGB limited for my videoplayer and TV/projector I noticed a signifcant improvement in picture quality (sharpness, less noise, more details).
Very new to this, so apologies for newbie questions.
For OLED, do we need to target 235 or 255?
I'm trying to learn how to calibrate my LG CX OLED with HCFR and i1 Display Pro
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post #12705 of 12716 Old 07-05-2020, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil80 View Post
Very new to this, so apologies for newbie questions.
For OLED, do we need to target 235 or 255?
I'm trying to learn how to calibrate my LG CX OLED with HCFR and i1 Display Pro
All TVs are calibrated to the "video" range of 16-235. The catch is that the PCs graphics card automatically (unless manually overridden) scales the output to that range, so in that case HCFR's internal pattern generator (GDI) will have to be set to 0-255, to avoid double scaling.

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post #12706 of 12716 Old 07-05-2020, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
All TVs are calibrated to the "video" range of 16-235. The catch is that the PCs graphics card automatically (unless manually overridden) scales the output to that range, so in that case HCFR's internal pattern generator (GDI) will have to be set to 0-255, to avoid double scaling.
Is there a HCFR guide for calibrating OLED in specific?

Currently, I did manual calibration using my eyes only when I played a white clipping and black clipping test patterns.
I was told that for OLED, the white clipping target should be left to the maximum number in the test pattern, and to not target for 234.
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post #12707 of 12716 Old 07-05-2020, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil80 View Post
Is there a HCFR guide for calibrating OLED in specific?

Currently, I did manual calibration using my eyes only when I played a white clipping and black clipping test patterns.
I was told that for OLED, the white clipping target should be left to the maximum number in the test pattern, and to not target for 234.
235 is just a reference number representing 100% white. It does not correspond to a specific luminance level, at least for SDR. Put it another way - whatever luminance you read for the white pattern corresponds to 235.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
235 is just a reference number representing 100% white. It does not correspond to a specific luminance level, at least for SDR. Put it another way - whatever luminance you read for the white pattern corresponds to 235.
Ok. But is there a guide that helps with a workflow on how to calibrate using HCFR and OLED?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It appears that the Greyscale measurements in the attached file are the Before values, whereas the Saturation measurements are the After values
All values in attached file are after values. I tried correcting the gray scale by using RGB gain at 80% IRE and RGB offsets at 20IRE. Not sure what causes the Red/Blue bump between 40-60IRE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
People use 75% saturation, as using 100% may lead to over-saturation at lower % (if the display cannot match 100%). In your case it's the opposite - the 100% is way over-saturated.
I got the idea of using 75% saturation windows based on Stereomandan's Epson PJ calibration guide. Apparently these Epsons have reduced Y values for 75% sat if calibrated using 100% sat patterns. Perhaps I should try re-calibrating to 100% saturation windows?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CadH View Post
Which Model is the UB8700 in Europe? I have a TW9300, I think it'sthe pendant of the 5040.
This PJ is a bit old. I think EU model was the successor of EH-TW4400. I'm trying to calibrate for a new bulb I got recently. Would like to get another year out of this PJ and then update with whatever JVC/Epson have for NX5 or 5050ub successor.
Quote:
If not, install madVR on your HTPC and use mad TPG. Before calibration starts, use the madlevelstweaker, slide the window on the Display of your projector and "force 0-255
I've set the Epson HDMI range to extended and same on the AVR. Will install madVr and use Mad TPG to ensure HTPC also uses 0-255 range.
Quote:
If your UB8700 has the DCI Filter, use the Digital Cinema Mode to calibrate on BT. 2020/Rec.709.
Usually the white point and maybe the gamma needs a Bit of adjusting. The natural Mode Shows out of the box a relatively nice Gamut and chromaticity is fine too.
The PJ has a THX mode which uses color filter and can achieve 100% Rec709 gamut but with filter it only produces about 450lumens which is quite dim for the 140in screen. Dynamic/Living room modes are quite similar and produce about 1000 lumens so trying get these closest I can to Rec709.
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post #12710 of 12716 Old 07-05-2020, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It appears that the Greyscale measurements in the attached file are the Before values, whereas the Saturation measurements are the After values.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhit View Post
All values in attached file are after values. I tried correcting the gray scale by using RGB gain at 80% IRE and RGB offsets at 20IRE. Not sure what causes the Red/Blue bump between 40-60IRE
The reason for my comment is that the gamma still shows an average of 1.53, whereas you said the custom gamma was close to 2.2. Unless you abandoned custom gamma because of the black crush (which should not be the case).

Two point correction is always a compromise. Instead of getting 20% and 80% to be “exact”, you may want to aim for the best “overall” balance.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 07-05-2020 at 07:45 PM.
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post #12711 of 12716 Old 07-05-2020, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The reason for my comment is that the gamma still shows an average of 1.53, whereas you said the custom gamma was close to 2.2. Unless you abandoned custom gamma because of the black crush (which should not be the case).
This the part of my original question and whats confusing me. Custom Gamma as configured in Menu is expected to be close to 2.3 but actual HCFR measurements show it to be much lower avg of 1.55. If I create a very steep curve using customized Gamma option(even steeper than the image in my previous post), I can achieve an HCFR measured avg of 2.2 but then there is severe black crush. Should I be using a different HCFR calculation which includes black compensation?
Quote:
.
Two point correction is always a compromise. Instead of getting 20% and 80% to be “exact”, you may want to aim for the best “overall” balance.
Thanks, this makes lot of sense. Will redo grayscale for better overall balance.
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post #12712 of 12716 Old 07-05-2020, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhit View Post
This the part of my original question and whats confusing me. Custom Gamma as configured in Menu is expected to be close to 2.3 but actual HCFR measurements show it to be much lower avg of 1.55. If I create a very steep curve using customized Gamma option(even steeper than the image in my previous post), I can achieve an HCFR measured avg of 2.2 but then there is severe black crush. Should I be using a different HCFR calculation which includes black compensation?
There is no reason for black crush with a gamma of 2.2. That’s why I suggested measuring gamma at 20 points to make sure gamma is not excessively high at 5%.

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post #12713 of 12716 Old 07-06-2020, 01:37 PM
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A measured avg of 2.2 does not say that much about overall Gamma. I would try to reset to default gamma setting and first try to find a problem with HDMI out/in. With ChromaPure I've read a while ago about the same gamma problems with direct HDMI out. The reason is, not every laptop is bit perfect. And because of this problem, I prefer the rPi TPG.

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post #12714 of 12716 Old 07-08-2020, 09:21 PM
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Is there a guide that demonstrates how to use HCFR to calibrate an OLED?

I'm looking to calibrate for SDR, HDR and DV.
I'm thinking of buying HDR + DV test patterns from here: https://www.diversifiedvideosolutions.com/products.html

I own i1 Display Pro from 2013 and would like to use that to calibrate my LG CX.

I read many pages at the start of this thread, but since HCFR doesn't have a workflow, I failed to understand how to start and know that I'm setting it up correctly and calibrating to the best of my abilities.
Despite my many readings into this thread, I lack the understanding of the correct workflow and verifications.

Would appreciate your help.
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post #12715 of 12716 Old Today, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil80 View Post
Is there a guide that demonstrates how to use HCFR to calibrate an OLED?

I'm looking to calibrate for SDR, HDR and DV.
I'm thinking of buying HDR + DV test patterns from here: https://www.diversifiedvideosolutions.com/products.html

I own i1 Display Pro from 2013 and would like to use that to calibrate my LG CX.

I read many pages at the start of this thread, but since HCFR doesn't have a workflow, I failed to understand how to start and know that I'm setting it up correctly and calibrating to the best of my abilities.
Despite my many readings into this thread, I lack the understanding of the correct workflow and verifications.

Would appreciate your help.
Check out the video in this thread, I found it very helpful
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...lkthrough.html
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post #12716 of 12716 Old Today, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpbpete View Post
Check out the video in this thread, I found it very helpful
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...lkthrough.html
Thanks. I'll follow it. I just don't know if it's the same for OLED.
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