HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 71 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2101 of 11943 Old 06-17-2013, 06:32 PM
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That is an excellent result. What doesnt look right in the picture?
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post #2102 of 11943 Old 06-17-2013, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

That is weird, something in madVR is shifting the red, do you have the 3dlut or any color correction active? Unless there is some measurement synchronization issue, try increasing the iris time to see if that has any effect.

I have a 3dlut active which is created using ArgyllCMS. It makes no difference if I disable 3dlut

increase iris time has an effect ... Tried to 300 ms, but must be close to 3000 ms before I get a correct result. Meter Xrite i1 DisplayPro

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post #2103 of 11943 Old 06-17-2013, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k View Post

That is an excellent result. What doesnt look right in the picture?

More info added to post for people who are not inside my head tongue.gif

Is it possible to bring the gamma down to the target of 2.2 with 2 point control ?
Also what's going on towards the end when all the colours split up
I assume its not right
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post #2104 of 11943 Old 06-17-2013, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Yes, check 0-255 levels for patterns through madVR.

Hmmmm... Don't you force 0-255 when using madVR for test patterns? The madVR ShowRGB() is defined to have black at 0.0 and white at 1.0 at all times. So a 0-255 vs. 16-235 switch for test patterns doesn't make sense when using madVR for test pattern generation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post

increase iris time has an effect ... Tried to 300 ms, but must be close to 3000 ms before I get a correct result. Meter Xrite i1 DisplayPro

Interesting! Does this problem only occur when letting madVR draw the test patterns? Or does it also occur with the HCFR built in test images?
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post #2105 of 11943 Old 06-17-2013, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Interesting! Does this problem only occur when letting madVR draw the test patterns?

Yes

I have not tried with HCFR built in test images, but compared to madVR / AVSHD

madVR test patterns ... Notice cyan and yellow



madVR AVSHD


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post #2106 of 11943 Old 06-17-2013, 11:57 PM
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Please compare to the built in HCFR test patterns, just to be safe. Thanks.
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post #2107 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Please compare to the built in HCFR test patterns, just to be safe. Thanks.

I do not know how to compare on my HTPC ... I have HCFR installed on my laptop. I made a measurement on my laptop and I do not need to raise the latency with HCFR images

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post #2108 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 02:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillycargt4cs View Post

More info added to post for people who are not inside my head tongue.gif

Is it possible to bring the gamma down to the target of 2.2 with 2 point control ?
Also what's going on towards the end when all the colours split up
I assume its not right

You can't adjust gamma with a 2 pt., all you can do is change display gamma presets if it has them but that won't alter the shape. Your dE is probably pretty low at the high end so that separation is not going to be noticeable, you might tighten it up a bit by lowering contrast.
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post #2109 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 03:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Hmmmm... Don't you force 0-255 when using madVR for test patterns? The madVR ShowRGB() is defined to have black at 0.0 and white at 1.0 at all times. So a 0-255 vs. 16-235 switch for test patterns doesn't make sense when using madVR for test pattern generation.

I was wrong about always needing to send 0-255 (it's better if you do though). You can use either 0-255 or 16-235 since they are normalized and HCFR knows which fractional levels are being sent, you'll get the same answer just at two different resolutions.
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post #2110 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 03:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post

I do not know how to compare on my HTPC ... I have HCFR installed on my laptop. I made a measurement on my laptop and I do not need to raise the latency with HCFR images

When I've done this comparison I have madVR/HCFR on the same laptop and things match-up perfectly (in windowed mode, see below) so there seems to be some latency issue when the two are on different computers. The way HCFR works is:

send patch request->wait latency time->take measure->repeat

I can imagine a slightly longer latency required with two machines involved by why it would be 3 seconds I don't know. You should actually be able to see a delay before the first patch displays if it's that long.


edit: I did find another oddity with madVR, HCFR and madVR windowed mode are the same within probe error but there is a shift in blue luminance error and a 6% increase in peak white in FSE mode. This generates the largest dE in cyan via an xy shift. Why does FSE mode change the display response?

HCFR


madVR windowed mode


madVR exclusive mode



maybe this is the source of MSL_DK's mismatched readings as well?
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post #2111 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

When I've done this comparison I have madVR/HCFR on the same laptop and things match-up perfectly (in windowed mode, see below) so there seems to be some latency issue when the two are on different computers. The way HCFR works is:

send patch request->wait latency time->take measure->repeat

I can imagine a slightly longer latency required with two machines involved by why it would be 3 seconds I don't know. You should actually be able to see a delay before the first patch displays if it's that long.


edit: I did find another oddity with madVR, HCFR and madVR windowed mode are the same within probe error but there is a shift in blue luminance error and a 6% increase in peak white in FSE mode. This generates the largest dE in cyan via an xy shift. Why does FSE mode change the display response?

maybe this is the source of MSL_DK's mismatched readings as well?

There is no delay when the first pattern appears. I do not use FSE mode, I use ReClock and madVR exclusive mode.

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post #2112 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I can imagine a slightly longer latency required with two machines involved by why it would be 3 seconds I don't know. You should actually be able to see a delay before the first patch displays if it's that long.

The latency over LAN might be ever so slightly larger, but it shouldn't be more than a couple milliseconds, I would imagine...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I was wrong about always needing to send 0-255 (it's better if you do though). You can use either 0-255 or 16-235 since they are normalized and HCFR knows which fractional levels are being sent, you'll get the same answer just at two different resolutions.

What does "different resolution" mean exactly? Do you mean different accuracy? So test patterns will have the correct levels, but have slightly different values? Or what do you mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

edit: I did find another oddity with madVR, HCFR and madVR windowed mode are the same within probe error but there is a shift in blue luminance error and a 6% increase in peak white in FSE mode. This generates the largest dE in cyan via an xy shift. Why does FSE mode change the display response?

It should not. That probably means that your GPU is doing some additional processing, either at windowed mode or at exclusive mode. Maybe the GPU gamma ramps are still not cleared properly in either mode?
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post #2113 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 04:12 AM
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I have no idea what MadVR is. I never even heard of CalmVR or SomewhatIRK-edVR.

Guess I'll go google it because with a thousand posts discussing it in this thread it may be significant.
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post #2114 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 04:38 AM
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Any info on what exactly the new build improves upon or how it's different than the previous, maybe in layman's terms? smile.gif I'm just curious.

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post #2115 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

You can't adjust gamma with a 2 pt., all you can do is change display gamma presets if it has them but that won't alter the shape. Your dE is probably pretty low at the high end so that separation is not going to be noticeable, you might tighten it up a bit by lowering contrast.
I will post up my dE & graphs later but yes they are very low
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post #2116 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheYC View Post

Any info on what exactly the new build improves upon or how it's different than the previous, maybe in layman's terms? smile.gif I'm just curious.

The new version will only be of interest to those that use the internal pattern generator either by itself or in conjunction with the madVR video rendering application that is used in HTPC set-ups.

Changes to internal pattern generator v3.0.4.3
-added user setting for background stimulus gray level (so patch windows can be displayed on elevated background).
-added user setting for intensity of primary/secondard patterns (so you calibrate at 75% stimulus for example, or any level you want).
-added support for sending internal patterns to madVR for calibration of HTPC system.
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post #2117 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 05:36 AM
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Zoyd,I notice when choosing IBT-U-1886 you did not grey out the 2.22 box this time around...

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post #2118 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

The latency over LAN might be ever so slightly larger, but it shouldn't be more than a couple milliseconds, I would imagine...

yes I agree, any differences measured must be due to video card issues (exclusive vs. windowed for example) or differences in levels sent (AVHSD mp4 file vs. HCFR generator). I get exact 1:1 matching between HCFR internal vs. HCFR->madVR as long as I stick to windowed output.
Quote:
What does "different resolution" mean exactly? Do you mean different accuracy? So test patterns will have the correct levels, but have slightly different values? Or what do you mean?

I was wrong about this, I thought the 16-235 switch sent different level spacing (that's what I meant by resolution) but it turns out it has no effect for madVR. This switch is for the internal generator when sending RGB values to the video card, either full or video range.
Quote:
It should not. That probably means that your GPU is doing some additional processing, either at windowed mode or at exclusive mode. Maybe the GPU gamma ramps are still not cleared properly in either mode?

I agree a GPU effect but not gamma ramps because those generate much larger errors in gray scale which I don't see, it's something subtle about what it does with 1.0, hence the 6% increase in white.
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post #2119 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 08:20 AM
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Hmm ... This is so weird. I have lowered the latency to 200 ms and no longer experience this problem eek.gif

LL

But experiencing the problem of yellow and cyan.

LL

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post #2120 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post

Hmm ... This is so weird. I have lowered the latency to 200 ms and no longer experience this problem eek.gif

The latency issue was a red herring, there should be no problem with latency over your LAN.
Quote:
But experiencing the problem of yellow and cyan.

HCFR is a pure digital signal generator, it sends a [1, 0, 0] to madVR and madVR will display a 100% red so that is as pure as you can get. If some other source like an mp4 of AVSHD patterns gives you a different answer then it is one of two things:

1. The video pipline between disk file encode and decode to display is not perfect, something is happening in the authoring (RGB -> mp4) or rendering (mp4->RGB) which is giving a slightly different answer than a pure [1,0,0] triplet does. Have you tried with/without dithering active, or changing some of the upsampling switches?

2. Depending on display technology it can generate slightly different luminances depending on pattern geometry (plasma in particular).

Can you post the actual primary/secondary measures page (like I did above) for the HCFR and AVSHD measurements? In the end the whole point of having madVR generate it's own patterns is so you don't have to worry about issues like this because it cuts out all the in-between steps in the video source->display chain.

By the way, I have done the same comparison measurements that you have done between PS3 generated AVSHD patterns and HCFR/madVR patterns and they match.
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post #2121 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 11:52 AM
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I think I found the cause of my problem. My Samsung TV was adjusted and calibrated for Colour Space: Auto, I changed it to Native, then ArgyllCMS and tested with HCFR / madVR ... It is not quite good, so will try with ArgyllCMS +2000 patterns ... However, cyan and yellow are solved

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post #2122 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 12:55 PM
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right as promised my graphs for advice & criticism
these are from a samsung es8000 in standard mode preset with only 2 point balance available







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post #2123 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillycargt4cs View Post

right as promised my graphs for advice & criticism
these are from a samsung es8000 in standard mode preset with only 2 point balance available

Very very nice grayscale tracking as well as gamma. You're CIE graph doesn't actually have the colors on it, so I'm guessing you forgot to test the colors. wink.gif

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post #2124 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 04:30 PM
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I have dtp94 4 or 5years. When use it for grayscale reading then I think it is OK but not for CMS specially for reading red color. So I am thinking about get EODIS3 i1Display Pro or CMUNDIS ColorMunki Display. Which one is good for plasma TV? Does HCFR support it? Thank a lot all input.
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post #2125 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillycargt4cs View Post

right as promised my graphs for advice & criticism
these are from a samsung es8000 in standard mode preset with only 2 point balance available

looks very good, a click or two on the cuts while displaying a 10% pattern will clean up the lower end if your meter is stable down there.
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post #2126 of 11943 Old 06-18-2013, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL_DK View Post

I think I found the cause of my problem. My Samsung TV was adjusted and calibrated for Colour Space: Auto, I changed it to Native, then ArgyllCMS and tested with HCFR / madVR ... It is not quite good, so will try with ArgyllCMS +2000 patterns ... However, cyan and yellow are solved

Did you try custom? That usually gives you native + a ton of adjustments! smile.gif
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post #2127 of 11943 Old 06-19-2013, 03:42 AM
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I'm just curious..
Why are people posting 10pt grayscale instead of 20pt?
Isn't it better to check with 20pt?

Because as you can see from my graph last time, even if I get <1 dE average with 10pt, the 20pt shows massive error in the in-between 5% high end grayscale (8+ dE).
I did check if this is visible or not using 20pt greyscale steps pattern and greyscale ramps pattern. It's clearly visible.

Or is my result is actually out of the ordinary?
And generally 10pt greyscale is enough to assume that the in-between 5% is actually flat?
Even if the contrast is jacked up to the max?

The graph, same calibration, but different check points:
10pt

20pt


Thanks~!
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post #2128 of 11943 Old 06-19-2013, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlix View Post

I'm just curious..
Why are people posting 10pt grayscale instead of 20pt?
Isn't it better to check with 20pt?

Because as you can see from my graph last time, even if I get <1 dE average with 10pt, the 20pt shows massive error in the in-between 5% high end grayscale (8+ dE).
I did check if this is visible or not using 20pt greyscale steps pattern and greyscale ramps pattern. It's clearly visible.

Or is my result is actually out of the ordinary?
And generally 10pt greyscale is enough to assume that the in-between 5% is actually flat?
Even if the contrast is jacked up to the max?
Thanks~!

It's not normal to see large errors in-between the 10% points but it can happen as you show so it's a good idea to do a verification check with a 20pt run. Usually serious errors will be seen in a gray ramp so you can then go back and track them down with measurements.
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post #2129 of 11943 Old 06-19-2013, 06:40 AM
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That 20pt chart looks to me like the TV has broken 10pt white controls. It's also interesting that the readings at the 10,20,30 etc levels do not match between the 10pt measure chart and 20pt measure.
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post #2130 of 11943 Old 06-19-2013, 12:54 PM
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Hello again, i have 2 laptops. On one laptop i got the hcfr version 2.1 with windows 7 ultimate edition and i1 pro works fine.With my other laptop i have Windows XP with service pack 3 and i1 pro doesn't work. I have done the same setup on both laptops. I would like to know if somebody knows what is causing this. The error i get is about eyeone.dll.
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