HCFR - Open source projector and display calibration software - Page 91 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2701 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchX View Post

When I try to create a correction file for my i1Display Pro using my CCFL LCD TV, it shows me the default matrix without any corrections present. Does that mean that my colorimeter does not really need a correction file for LCD displays?

You can only create a matrix correction with a reference spectrometer.
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post #2702 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I have updated the code to 3.1.0.3


Changelog


Merged ArgyllCMS 1.6.2 meter code and some minor wording changes. Also added color highlighting to the pattern labels and removed the silly "awesome ..." messages. No new features at the moment.


I did check that the internal pattern generator animated black and white scrolling bar patterns are working correctly at both 0-255 and 16-235 settings. These are available as separate selections under Advanced->Test patterns and as Contrast and Brightness Tools unders Advanced->Display Patterns. The "black level test" and "white level test" available in the Display Patterns are full range patterns only since they are picked up as files and not generated internally, so how they appear will be dictated by your video card settings.
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post #2703 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Is that the Plasma edr correction (.ccss)? I think that is what he is interested in.

Here is the full story. Done on my 60VT60 in the bedroom with abour 200 hours.

D3 with no profile correction



D3 with my profile correction



D3 with generic plasma profile correction



D3 with edr ccss selected



I didn't have time to do any color gamut runs.

edit: HCFR version 3.1.0.2 used for measurements.


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post #2704 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 08:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

You can only create a matrix correction with a reference spectrometer.

"Build Manually Using Reference Colorimeter" - I thought I could use that to create my own...

What I am ultimately asking is whether I actually need a correction file. Do I need it for each display type? I think i1Profiler software already came with correction files for each display type because they pop up in dispcalGUI and HCFR.
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post #2705 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 08:23 PM
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Thank you Larry! That's what I wanted to see:edr vs your correction matrix. Although it's holding quite well with edr, it's obvious that the errors are visible with the eyes since deltaE's are higher than 3! In this case d3 colorimeter are not as accurate with plasma as some thoughts. Very disappointed!
Lowering red and blue to get wb will push green so that's what I get when calibrating with edr:a green picture.
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post #2706 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 08:31 PM
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Andrie,

Keep in mind that this is for my D3. I was only looking a variations among various correction methods. I was not evaluating the D3 meter.

Comparing my uncorrected D3 to my D3 using the edr configuration, the uncorrected data are a teeny tiny bit better than the edr data -- at least at the high end.


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post #2707 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 08:34 PM
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Even though all probes are unique you can try if someone else´s matrix work for you.
You can find all matrixes posted in this thread from here.
Those are .mhc (older HCFR version) so you have to save them as .thc
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post #2708 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 08:40 PM
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Yes Larry. But without the possibility to corrrct id3 with a spectro and considering that the variations among them are minimal (so they say) an unprofiled d3 in my opinion wil not get wb with errors that can't be visible with the naked eyes. And remember, latest hcfr versions have a gentle aproach with delta E.
Youmay have a 80blue 100green 110 red and still get deltaE under 1.Why is that it's beyond me.
Thanks Make. But guessing or using some matrixes that makes you get a picture that you like has nothing to do with calibration.
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post #2709 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Thanks Make. But guessing or using some matrixes that makes you get a picture that you like has nothing to do with calibration.

That´s true, only way is pay for calibrating your meter against reference or buy meter like this one wink.gif
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post #2710 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 08:52 PM
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Make, in a country where minimal salary is 150 € (that of course is not my case but just to get an idea) and a d3 is 250 € you may see what's the investment in this case. With no isf calibrators, so hard to find a spectro it's obvious that I'm stuck with their marvellous colorimetet. In all those years since d3 it's out there they couldn't do a better job with edr's for panasonic plasmas?
Or Larry's is a special one and all the others are better..
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post #2711 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Make73 View Post

That´s true, only way is pay for calibrating your meter against reference or buy meter like this one wink.gif

An i1 Pro spectro is quite sufficient to use as a reference for profiling a D3.

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post #2712 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post

Thank you Larry! That's what I wanted to see:edr vs your correction matrix. Although it's holding quite well with edr, it's obvious that the errors are visible with the eyes since deltaE's are higher than 3! In this case d3 colorimeter are not as accurate with plasma as some thoughts. Very disappointed!
Lowering red and blue to get wb will push green so that's what I get when calibrating with edr:a green picture.
I have nothing against the i1pro (I own both a D3 and i1pro), and don't get me wrong, the i1pro will generally be more accurate on more display types because it's a spectro; BUT, keep in mind that it's not considered a reference level spectro. The only way to compare the accuracy of the i1pro and D3 is to compare it to a reference level spectro (ie a Jeti, Konica Minolta or Photo Research spectro).
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post #2713 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 09:03 PM
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Read this one.
I don´t know how reliable that review is but it tells variables between different i1D3 units are quite small.

If you can see bigger than dE3 with eye and variables are so small, I don´t see any harm to try those matrix corrections whis is posted here.
Of course you can stick with generic corrections with HCFR but is that any better, it´s still guessing and your results are not reliable because you don´t have reference meter?!
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post #2714 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 09:14 PM
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Here are a few more that you can add to the list. Although I'm not quite sure what you will do with them. smile.gif

using RGB profile patterns from Masciola's disk

1.0023900.0291370.000931
-0.0213291.0528300.006868
0.014627-0.0108871.011654
```````````````````````````````````````````````````
using full calibrations

1.003569-0.006691-0.002640
0.0099740.979086-0.001154
0.000883-0.0001580.987296
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````
D3_generic_plasma.thc (from HCFR)

1.065062-0.011152-0.016198
0.0370900.983341-0.006101
-0.0013440.0101160.970379
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````

1.0290930.016632-0.000275
-0.0178601.0587190.006241
0.014117-0.0132581.024590
````````````````````````````````````````````````````

Larry
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post #2715 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 09:18 PM
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Thank you very much all you guys! Your help is much appreciated!
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post #2716 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Make73 View Post

Read this one.
I don´t know how reliable that review is but it tells variables between different i1D3 units are quite small.

If you can see bigger than dE3 with eye and variables are so small, I don´t see any harm to try those matrix corrections whis is posted here.
Of course you can stick with generic corrections with HCFR but is that any better, it´s still guessing and your results are not reliable because you don´t have reference meter?!
I'm a little suspicious of the results in that article, but what do I know. Tom Huffman's results comparing the D3 and i1pro with his Jeti showed that the D3 (uncorrected) and i1pro are fairly close, with the i1pro being a bit more accurate on certain displays.

CCSS/EDRs are the more reliable corrections vs a generic correction matrix/profile because CCSS/EDRs basically create a unique correction specifically for your meter. A generic matrix/profile may be a bit better, but it might be worse. Profiling your D3 to an i1pro or reference spectro will obviously be better than both.
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post #2717 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 09:36 PM
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I don't think Tom got all that info with plasmas but I might be wrong. How unique is that correction with edr and how good it actually is I think we can see in Larry's measurements!
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post #2718 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 10:00 PM
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I asked him how the uncorrected D3 was on PDPs and he said that errors were just a bit higher than on the LCDs he tested.

edit: Sorry browsed over your second question.

How EDRs work from gwgill:
Quote:
Each display 3 (and Spyder 4) type meter has it's own spectral characteristics measured and programmed into it's firmware at the factory. This accounts for meter to meter variation.

By supplying the spectral characteristics of the display (ie. EDR or .ccss file), the instrument driver software can create a calibration matrix for that instrument on that display.

And again, Larry's post just shows how much different the D3 is in respect to the i1pro. The i1pro is most likely the more accurate meter (especially on PDP), but it is not a comparison with a reference level meter.
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post #2719 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 10:13 PM
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I think he never used edr's because I remember asking him in that thread. Without them I'm pretty sure d3 was a mess with plasmas.
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post #2720 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 10:22 PM
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https://www.avsforum.com/t/1487208/colorimeters-and-spectrographs-questions#post_23658985

From the sound of it, it wasn't a 'mess', but it was 'worth correcting'.
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post #2721 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

I agree with zoyd... It's probably the display and its settings, or the anomaly is in the movie itself. Man of Steel is pretty bit-starved (only ~20Mb/s bitrate) considering that it's fairly grainy... this can cause banding (or not so smooth gradients) from compression. Raising the gamma at low video levels is probably just masking it. Considering that you only see this in Man of Steel leads me to believe that it's the movie itself. I don't think that it's HCFR's fault and it's not making your gamma brighter than it 'should be'. If you use a spreadsheet that actually includes BT.1886, you'll see that the numbers should be the same as HCFR's gamma Y targets. If you're not happy with how your set performs using BT.1886, use display gamma and set your desired target.

Seems doing a 20pt calibration then adjusting the 2pt and tweaking the 10pt again rectified it. There's only a very faint piece of banding visible but no speckle like splotches. You don't really see it until you pause. It's also helped neutral my blacks. I've never seen Batman 89 and Returns look like charcoal blacks as well as the deepness. All the different shades through his rubber suit is really something.

c1fs.jpg

The only thing I did use from the spreadsheet was the luminance for the 75% CMS. More so the blue. I couldn't find a sweet spot for blue without the spreadsheet. Blue dE 2.17. It looks gorgeous on Sky Sports News.
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post #2722 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I have updated the code to 3.1.0.3
Merged ArgyllCMS 1.6.2 meter code and some minor wording changes.

Any changes according to this that would affect anything to your knowledge?

I souped his up from Argylls Changelog that could be worth mentioning:
  • 1.6.2 > 1.6.1 Changed i1d3 driver to be more forgiving of EEProm checksum calculation, so that it works with the latest release "A-02" rev. i1 display pro & colormunki display instruments, as well as improving its robustness in the face of errors.
  • 1.6.1 > 1.6.0 Fix oeminst to work with a wider range of i1d3 install files.
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post #2723 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

The correction matrix HCFR calculates uses either 3 (no white) or 4 (with white) depending on your preference selection. Both work very well but I use the 4 color so that Y white luminance is matched between my i1pro2 and d3. If you are building one from the Chromapure report I would try both and see what the differences are for grayscale, primaries/secondaries. If they agree within perceptual error limits than you don't have to worry about it, if they don't then you'd need to investigate why.
Thanks! I'll look into it.
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post #2724 of 11718 Old 11-19-2013, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Make73 View Post

Even though all probes are unique you can try if someone else´s matrix work for you.
You can find all matrixes posted in this thread from here.
Those are .mhc (older HCFR version) so you have to save them as .thc
I tried renaming them and they show up, but when selecting them I get an error. Wrong schema or something. Doesn't work at all unfortunately.
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post #2725 of 11718 Old 11-20-2013, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xvfx View Post

BT.1886 shouldn't be showing an anomaly in that scene?… it should be a smooth gradient. Isn't that what the Movie industry is using? unless Man of Steel has been made with a flat line of gamma 2.2? I don't know but for it to not show a low gradient in that space scene isn't right.

A "flat" display gamma does not mean gradients are flat. The graph is a power curve which scales luminosity according to a formula. The actual gradients difference between ire values can be easily seen as they are unscaled in the luminosity graph.

The BT1886 gamma formula is different from the "display gamma" one and shows a slope. Those values are still not the true luminosity values, check the luma graph to see how luma reference changes in reality with both variants. BT1866 allows more low end brightness and helps avoid crushing black but also pushes higher ire to higher gamma (darker).

I guess you know this, just making sure... wink.gif
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post #2726 of 11718 Old 11-20-2013, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Barsk View Post

I tried renaming them and they show up, but when selecting them I get an error. Wrong schema or something. Doesn't work at all unfortunately.

Just renaming don´t do the trick, you have to type those values to HCFR and after saving file you have .thc matrix correction file smile.gif
(Open .mhc with 3.0.4.0 or older and then go to Advanced-->Meter Correction file-->Manually edit XYZ matrix)
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post #2727 of 11718 Old 11-20-2013, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Make73 View Post

Just renaming don´t do the trick, you have to type those values to HCFR and after saving file you have .thc matrix correction file smile.gif
(Open .mhc with 3.0.4.0 or older and then go to Advanced-->Meter Correction file-->Manually edit XYZ matrix)
Ok, a way around the problem. Awkward, but manageable. Would still be good if it could be fixed so one can load these files in current version. I guess there are some such files around...
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post #2728 of 11718 Old 11-20-2013, 04:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Here is the full story. Done on my 60VT60 in the bedroom with abour 200 hours.

Larry

Thanks Larry, I suspected the xrite bundled plasma EDR would not work particularly well on the VT/ZT60 due to the more saturated red primary. If you would be so kind, could you create a VT60 .ccss and I will package with HCFR? (Advanced->matrix corrections->create .ccss)
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post #2729 of 11718 Old 11-20-2013, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Thanks Larry, I suspected the xrite bundled plasma EDR would not work particularly well on the VT/ZT60 due to the more saturated red primary. If you would be so kind, could you create a VT60 .ccss and I will package with HCFR? (Advanced->matrix corrections->create .ccss)

Zoyd and Larry

Great idea on a spectral edr for the ZT,VT60 as I have my eyes set on either one in a couple of months and this would come in handy...

Aww,no more "Awesome calibration" wording,I thought we were going the Playstation route with Trophy's next for good calibrations...

Gold for de < 0.9
Silver for de 1 - 2.5
Gold for de 3-5

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post #2730 of 11718 Old 11-20-2013, 07:59 AM
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I can't select the array XYZ presentation in the Display section of the Gray Scale windows, instead it always returns to the xyY form.
Is there an other option to select before?

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