CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 134 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3991 of 6789 Old 09-15-2017, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post
Tyler, any eta for the full Dolby Vision support eg. Custom DV - software patch generation with LG OLED's, (which currently can only be done with the murideo six-g / VF PRO 4K)?


TIA.


In the latest beta you can use CalMAN’s Pattern window and PC HDMI output + HDfury integral/linker to put the 2017 in Dolby Vision mode. Including the custom calibration process. The HDFURY Is required to inject the vendor specific info frame for Dolby Vision.
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post #3992 of 6789 Old 09-15-2017, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
There reports of CalMAN don't show the Luminance errrors. Edit the workflow you are using, and add a Gamut (Absolute) Luminance Chart and then post a screenshot or pre/post....to see the +- of gamut luminance errors you are getting.
Slightly off topic here, but I bought your disc awhile back, but then stopped calibrating at home so I had not spent time with it. Getting warmed up to try my new gear on the 940E tonight and looked your disc over, it is loaded! Great job on patterns!



As far as Calman showing a C6 HDR2000 as a C6, they replied to me from support and said they are aware it is happening on some installs and are looking into it.
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post #3993 of 6789 Old 09-15-2017, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
In the latest beta you can use CalMAN’s Pattern window and PC HDMI output + HDfury integral/linker to put the 2017 in Dolby Vision mode. Including the custom calibration process. The HDFURY Is required to inject the vendor specific info frame for Dolby Vision.
You have to add this to release notes, its so important detail which is not available to new feature list of this beta.
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post #3994 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Slightly off topic here, but I bought your disc awhile back, but then stopped calibrating at home so I had not spent time with it. Getting warmed up to try my new gear on the 940E tonight and looked your disc over, it is loaded! Great job on patterns!
Hi,

It's now a good opportunity now to check the CalMAN 5 workflows I have designed (and you have received to your emails) with my calibration disk. If you will use the Quick Analysis of CalMAN then you can see the instructions about the correct settings per each measurement run for each layout page: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post37866105

If you will use my workflows (Pre-Calibration Tools, Verify Calibration Tools & Color Comparator Comparisons) there no need to change anything to the settings, all layout pages has been configured and ready to measure anything you want


Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
As far as Calman showing a C6 HDR2000 as a C6, they replied to me from support and said they are aware it is happening on some installs and are looking into it.
This is something I have seen other users reporting also to SpectraCAL's forum, all the C6/C6-HDR/C6-HDR2000 are C6 meters, you can see that to your meter serial sticker, it says SpectraCAL C6. There no problem if the software says that you have C6, the capability of the meter to be certified from X-Rite up to 2000nits it's coming from the fact that all OEM or OEM Branded meters X-Rite produce with manufactured date from January 2017 and later, they are all certified for 2000nits. If you see your serial number sticker you will see when it's manufactured.

All meters say C6, so you have manufactured date before January 2017 then it's not C6-HDR2000, and certified up to 1000nits from X-Rite. If you have a certification from SpectraCAL where it says that it can reach ~1300 (+-50) nits then it's a C6-HDR.

If you have C6-HDR2000, the certification has been performed at luminance between 100-200 nits, some meters certified @ 150nit, others at 120nit etc...

SpectraCAL's C6, C6-HDR or C6-HDR2000 instruments serial number have the following format:

SP-yy.r-02.xxxxxx.mm

(SP = SpectraCAL version, yy = short year manufactured, r-02 = hardware revision (A or B) - firmware version (02), xxxxxx = incremental number, mm = month manufactured)
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post #3995 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
In the latest beta you can use CalMAN’s Pattern window and PC HDMI output + HDfury integral/linker to put the 2017 in Dolby Vision mode. Including the custom calibration process. The HDFURY Is required to inject the vendor specific info frame for Dolby Vision.

Tyler, I have an issue that Calman cannot see my connected Linker on my Intel based HTPC, 'USB device not connected' and Error - Source cannot be found, check your USB, RS232 or socket connection! then Calman crashes


Linker is connected (tried USB 2.0 and 3.0 ports) and Linker GUI see's it fine, running Silabs driver Version 4.0.0 and latest 0.23 linker firmware.


Could try my laptop but with the licence function of disable/re-enable, I don't want to use up my licence change allowance credit (I did email support twice about this allowance as I use 2 PC's for cal and verification's via a HTPC and a Laptop but never got a reply).
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post #3996 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Thanks for the link, good stuff. I never would have thought LED BG lol.

I also did read turn off LD during cal, and then turn back on when done. Also two calibrators told me that too.
I don't agree, calibrate as you watch it.

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
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post #3997 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 04:44 AM
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Looks like madVR latest update adds HDR support to madTPG (madVR pattern generator.) Interested to see how Calman interacts.
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post #3998 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 06:37 AM
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Sorry for such a basic question but I really want to purchase the Home Enthusiast set. But I need to really learn well how to use it. I do have basic calibration experience all the way back to Sony 3 Gun days but only as a hobby.

What resources besides this great forum would you recommend to come up to speed with this product and overall what to look for etc. Gamma curves has me going

Thanks so much for your help.

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post #3999 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

If you have C6-HDR2000, the certification has been performed at luminance between 100-200 nits, some meters certified @ 150nit, others at 120nit etc...

SpectraCAL's C6, C6-HDR or C6-HDR2000 instruments serial number have the following format:

SP-yy.r-02.xxxxxx.mm

(SP = SpectraCAL version, yy = short year manufactured, r-02 = hardware revision (A or B) - firmware version (02), xxxxxx = incremental number, mm = month manufactured)
I checked, it is an 8/17 model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I don't agree, calibrate as you watch it.

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk
I don't disagree, so I checked both ways. There was hardly any difference in WB result. Footlamberts dropped a hair (with brightness 10 and it off it read 49, with it on it read 45). All I can say is maybe with auto dim on it could make the way patterns are read wonky, with it dimming other zones as items go on and off in other parts of the screen. With it off you get a more stable screen.

You have to cut auto dim back on to cal HDR anyways, because with it off xtended dyn range is off.

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post #4000 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 08:15 AM
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^^^

"You have to cut auto dim back on to cal HDR anyways, because with it off xtended dyn range is off. "

And there describes the problem with LD on during calibration ^^

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post #4001 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi,

It's now a good opportunity now to check the CalMAN 5 workflows I have designed (and you have received to your emails) with my calibration disk. If you will use the Quick Analysis of CalMAN then you can see the instructions about the correct settings per each measurement run for each layout page: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post37866105

If you will use my workflows (Pre-Calibration Tools, Verify Calibration Tools & Color Comparator Comparisons) there no need to change anything to the settings, all layout pages has been configured and ready to measure anything you want




This is something I have seen other users reporting also to SpectraCAL's forum, all the C6/C6-HDR/C6-HDR2000 are C6 meters, you can see that to your meter serial sticker, it says SpectraCAL C6. There no problem if the software says that you have C6, the capability of the meter to be certified from X-Rite up to 2000nits it's coming from the fact that all OEM or OEM Branded meters X-Rite produce with manufactured date from January 2017 and later, they are all certified for 2000nits. If you see your serial number sticker you will see when it's manufactured.

All meters say C6, so you have manufactured date before January 2017 then it's not C6-HDR2000, and certified up to 1000nits from X-Rite. If you have a certification from SpectraCAL where it says that it can reach ~1300 (+-50) nits then it's a C6-HDR.

If you have C6-HDR2000, the certification has been performed at luminance between 100-200 nits, some meters certified @ 150nit, others at 120nit etc...

SpectraCAL's C6, C6-HDR or C6-HDR2000 instruments serial number have the following format:

SP-yy.r-02.xxxxxx.mm

(SP = SpectraCAL version, yy = short year manufactured, r-02 = hardware revision (A or B) - firmware version (02), xxxxxx = incremental number, mm = month manufactured)
My C6 HDR2000 has no sticker on it. When using CalMAN and searching for the meter it pulls up SpectraCal C6 and serial 001039294 which does not appear to follow what you have described.

Running in debug mode the output of that shows: 000047 = 12:01:20.319 SpectraCal C6 - Version Version: SP-B-02 AIO
So, I'm still uncertain what version of meter I actually was shipped last month for my upgrade.

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post #4002 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post
My C6 HDR2000 has no sticker on it. When using CalMAN and searching for the meter it pulls up SpectraCal C6 and serial 001039294 which does not appear to follow what you have described.

Running in debug mode the output of that shows: 000047 = 12:01:20.319 SpectraCal C6 - Version Version: SP-B-02 AIO
So, I'm still uncertain what version of meter I actually was shipped last month for my upgrade.
See the sticker attached to the counterweight of your meter, there you see the full serial code which is explained to my post above

It's not possible to don't have sticker, X-Rite is shipping meters with sticker.

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post #4003 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
^^^

"You have to cut auto dim back on to cal HDR anyways, because with it off xtended dyn range is off. "

And there describes the problem with LD on during calibration ^^
I of course don't use xt dyn range on sdr, but you have to use with HDR on high, it is designed that way. If you try and read HDR mode results with it (xt dyn range) off, they are terrible.

It has been my understanding from the get go that for HDR mode, xt dyn range is designed to be on.

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post #4004 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I of course don't use xt dyn range on sdr, but you have to use with HDR on high, it is designed that way. If you try and read HDR mode results with it (xt dyn range) off, they are terrible.

It has been my understanding from the get go that for HDR mode, xt dyn range is designed to be on.
^^^
Right so for HDR, for best results, leave everything at default. But what I was saying is XDR is really a brightness limiter adjustment. You can set it to high and turn the brightness down to 15 and it will be the same as setting it to Off and turning the brightness up to 35 or so for example, to get the same luminance. It gives you more fine control over the brightness so as long as you set the luminance to what ever value you want, it really doesn't make a difference what it is set to in SDR. HDR is different why? because in HDR, the tone mapping, the LUT, and everything else in that mode is expecting the panel settings to be as bright as possible.

I hope this makes it clearer.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BondDonBond View Post
Sorry for such a basic question but I really want to purchase the Home Enthusiast set. But I need to really learn well how to use it. I do have basic calibration experience all the way back to Sony 3 Gun days but only as a hobby.

What resources besides this great forum would you recommend to come up to speed with this product and overall what to look for etc. Gamma curves has me going

Thanks so much for your help.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
See the sticker attached to the counterweight of your meter, there you see the full serial code which is explained to my post above

It's not possible to don't have sticker, X-Rite is shipping meters with sticker.
Found it. Says SP-17.B-02.103294.07 and last line is 07.2017 Rev. B-02. (not clear what this last bit means).

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post #4007 of 6789 Old 09-16-2017, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post
Found it. Says SP-17.B-02.103294.07 and last line is 07.2017 Rev. B-02. (not clear what this last bit means).
See above to the formula I posted.

The 'B' is the hardware revision, the '02' is the firmware version.

Your meter is a custom branded OEM 2017 (July), so it's certified (from X-Rite) to read up to 2000 nits.

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post #4008 of 6789 Old 09-17-2017, 06:29 AM
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hi guys!
I have Samsung 55H6500 TV that I quite successfully calibrated with CALMAN, but the gamma does not reach the 2.4 values. (BT.1886) What did I do wrong? or is this so okay?

Sorry for my English, and thank you for the advice!


Last edited by linux.alucard; 09-17-2017 at 07:00 AM.
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post #4009 of 6789 Old 09-17-2017, 08:55 AM
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I am exploring the notion of using a HDFury Vertex to supplant the UHD static metadata.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
That sounds good.
The desired logic is:

1. If SDR do nothing.
2. If HDR-10, send fixed metadata
3. If DV, do nothing.

- Rich
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDfury View Post
There is not such automation yet, but i guess we can easily add such behavior routine, anyone else interested in that ?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vid...l#post54812894


Conceptually, this would allow alternate metadata to be used for HDR-10 that would limit the tone-mapping applied


For example, the LG 2017 OLEDs apply different tone-mapping that is reacting to the static metadata. This seems to be the case even with Active HDR (Dynamic Contrast: Low).
Assuming that the actual content is encoded the same regardless of the static metadata, then this data could be replaced with max nits that approximate the maximum display values, effectively disabling or limiting the tone-mapping.


Personally, I would like to experiment with forcing the 4000 nit titles to 1000 nit metadata to observe the effects.
Others could use this to apply external tone-mapping without the necessity of entering the service menu to disable tone-mapping and risking accidental damage.


What do you think?


- Rich

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post #4010 of 6789 Old 09-17-2017, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I am exploring the notion of using a HDFury Vertex to supplant the UHD static metadata.

For example, the LG 2017 OLEDs apply different tone-mapping that is reacting to the static metadata. This seems to be the case even with Active HDR (Dynamic Contrast: Low).
Assuming that the actual content is encoded the same regardless of the static metadata, then this data could be replaced with max nits that approximate the maximum display values, effectively disabling or limiting the tone-mapping.


Personally, I would like to experiment with forcing the 4000 nit titles to 1000 nit metadata to observe the effects.
Others could use this to apply external tone-mapping without the necessity of entering the service menu to disable tone-mapping and risking accidental damage.


What do you think?

- Rich
Hi Rich,

I have suggested the same last month, to use the same metadata used during patch generation as a fixed metadata for all HDR movies playback.

Some TV's are changing their output from differences of MaxCLL numbers, and it's unknown if these numbers studios are using are the correct ones (a lot of titles has zeros to MaxCLL / MaxFALL), also the movies with a MaxCLL, we are not sure it correct method to scan for this used.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post54672346

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post54674444

I believe this is the best solution for HDR calibration right now.....if you test and find out what magic 'max' number of each display which will be tracking better the PQ curve.
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post #4011 of 6789 Old 09-17-2017, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linux.alucard View Post
hi guys!
I have Samsung 55H6500 TV that I quite successfully calibrated with CALMAN, but the gamma does not reach the 2.4 values. (BT.1886) What did I do wrong? or is this so okay?
With BT.1886, the gamma varies with the measured black point. It gets to 2.4 only if the black point measure 0.000 nits. I have attached a picture that shows the gamma when the measured black point is 0.05 nits. It gets to 2.35 max.
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post #4012 of 6789 Old 09-17-2017, 10:01 AM
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hi guys!
I have Samsung 55H6500 TV that I quite successfully calibrated with CALMAN, but the gamma does not reach the 2.4 values. (BT.1886) What did I do wrong? or is this so okay?

Sorry for my English, and thank you for the advice!

If you are talking about that off-the-curve jump between 0 and 10%, it's because you were only measuring 0 and 10%. It won't plot along a rapidly changing curve like that because you aren't measuring anywhere within that curve. It has no data to plot. If you have the patterns, try 0 - 100% in 5% increments.

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post #4013 of 6789 Old 09-17-2017, 11:01 AM
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Tyler, I have an issue that Calman cannot see my connected Linker on my Intel based HTPC, 'USB device not connected' and Error - Source cannot be found, check your USB, RS232 or socket connection! then Calman crashes


Linker is connected (tried USB 2.0 and 3.0 ports) and Linker GUI see's it fine, running Silabs driver Version 4.0.0 and latest 0.23 linker firmware.


Could try my laptop but with the licence function of disable/re-enable, I don't want to use up my licence change allowance credit (I did email support twice about this allowance as I use 2 PC's for cal and verification's via a HTPC and a Laptop but never got a reply).


Just to update, I installed this beta on my laptop (Dell Latitude E5470) running windows 7 and transferred my licence and exactly the same issue occurs - 'USB device not connected' and Error - Source cannot be found, check your USB, RS232 or socket connection! then Calman crashes.
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Just to update, I installed this beta on my laptop (Dell Latitude E5470) running windows 7 and transferred my licence and exactly the same issue occurs - 'USB device not connected' and Error - Source cannot be found, check your USB, RS232 or socket connection! then Calman crashes.
AFAIK, you must have the AVTop control software installed and running to control these directly from CalMAN. Without it, you can still tell CalMAN you have one of these and it will show a table of HDR specs it's using and the metadata for them under "Measurement Options". Cut-and-paste the metadata strings to the proper fields in the Linker GUI, send it to the Linker, and away you go. It's what I do. They covered this in their HDR 10 Calibration video on YouTube.

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post #4015 of 6789 Old 09-17-2017, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan
With BT.1886, the gamma varies with the measured black point. It gets to 2.4 only if the black point measure 0.000 nits. I have attached a picture that shows the gamma when the measured black point is 0.05 nits. It gets to 2.35 max.
So understandable, thank you!

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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce
If you have the patterns, try 0 - 100% in 5% increments.
I have a pattern, but the TV does not support it. (only 10pt... 10 - 100% in 10% increments)
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post #4016 of 6789 Old 09-17-2017, 11:55 AM
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I have a pattern, but the TV does not support it. (only 10pt... 10 - 100% in 10% increments)
Even if your TV does not support it, you can still measure it. As a matter of fact, it's advisable to measure 20 pts if you have made major adjustments in the 10-pt controls, to make sure there are no peaks and valleys in between.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 09-17-2017 at 12:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
AFAIK, you must have the AVTop control software installed and running to control these directly from CalMAN. Without it, you can still tell CalMAN you have one of these and it will show a table of HDR specs it's using and the metadata for them under "Measurement Options". Cut-and-paste the metadata strings to the proper fields in the Linker GUI, send it to the Linker, and away you go. It's what I do. They covered this in their HDR 10 Calibration video on YouTube.


I'm sure AVTop was only needed for Integral, not the Linker and for HDR not Dolby vision, thanks i'll investigate further.


Edit: Only HDR metadata is given in Calman with AVTop, no Dolby Vision metadata - so can't be copied to linker.

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So understandable, thank you!



I have a pattern, but the TV does not support it. (only 10pt... 10 - 100% in 10% increments)
No problem. As @Dominic Chan already said, you're not actually adjusting the points, just checking to see where they lie!

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post #4019 of 6789 Old 09-17-2017, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
AFAIK, you must have the AVTop control software installed and running to control these directly from CalMAN. Without it, you can still tell CalMAN you have one of these and it will show a table of HDR specs it's using and the metadata for them under "Measurement Options". Cut-and-paste the metadata strings to the proper fields in the Linker GUI, send it to the Linker, and away you go. It's what I do. They covered this in their HDR 10 Calibration video on YouTube.
From Latest Beta: ''Added support for the HDFury SDK. This enables the HDFury support without the need to copy and paste data from their software. It is listed under HDFury for the manufacturer. The old method is still there under AVTOPcontroller.''

Since the Beta support the SDK which HD Fury released to public for software developers, the AVTOP is not needed, CalMAN can (if the current bug solved) control HD Fury products directly.

Unless there some special instructions not mentioned anywhere yet, seems that its a feature not tested before the Beta release, this is why no-one can make it work (propably this is why is not available that feature at the beta release notes, who knows)
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post #4020 of 6789 Old 09-17-2017, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
From Latest Beta: ''Added support for the HDFury SDK. This enables the HDFury support without the need to copy and paste data from their software. It is listed under HDFury for the manufacturer. The old method is still there under AVTOPcontroller.''

Since the Beta support the SDK which HD Fury released to public for software developers, the AVTOP is not needed, CalMAN can (if the current bug solved) control HD Fury products directly.

Unless there some special instructions not mentioned anywhere yet, seems that its a feature not tested before the Beta release, this is why no-one can make it work (propably this is why is not available that feature at the beta release notes, who knows)
Thanks, Ted. I was more interested in the autocal functions than anything else so didn't pay attention to that when reading the change notes on the beta. Wonder if new firmware will be needed for the HDFury products?

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