CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 190 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5671 of 7030 Old 03-03-2019, 11:35 AM
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There won’t be a Lumagen “Home” version or any kind of LUT box video processor support on the “new” Home. Support for those devices is limited to the Video Pro/Studio/Ultimate. But you can still use your Enthusiast version for those.
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post #5672 of 7030 Old 03-03-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
There won’t be a Lumagen “Home” version or any kind of LUT box video processor support on the “new” Home. Support for those devices is limited to the Video Pro/Studio/Ultimate. But you can still use your Enthusiast version for those.
Which is exactly what i plan to do. No "upgrade" for me, I'm afraid.
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post #5673 of 7030 Old 03-03-2019, 01:11 PM
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hmm..crap!...probably no upgrade for me either!....been calman user since day 1......(before that had the smart calibration system with the excel thing.. )....since i only use calman for my home equip.. that includes lumagen autocal on my projector..i think the new "home" editions is out of question....NOT happy.....
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post #5674 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 12:27 AM
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I really hope ColorSpace (from the LightSpace makers) will have better GUI than LS for manual calibrations - If this is the case I will trade my CalMan License for sure to get ColorSpace. What Spectracal is doing is just ridiculous, far from good customer service. If you make your clients (especially non-pro enthusiasts) give up their interest for calibration - you simply dont care about any of them.
Feel sorry for the pros also, I think everyone of them invests a lot of money for equipment, travel and learning - they also need their earned money like everyone else. Then SpectraCal comes with their great new ideas and raises the annual fees (that is A LOT of money) while the product itself does not really gets better. A lot of them gave good ideas how to make CalMan better, but nobody listens...

I know that I wont pay anything, I am done with CalMan. I have my enthusiast license and like I said, if ColorSpace gets the things I need for manual calibration I will trade my license. This story really hurts, I am at a point now where I am loosing my passion for calibrations as it becomes more "press a button,wait and pay for it" (while the results are far from good - see autocal). The real knowledge gets lost here, to know and learn how something works and why things behave like they do.

I am done with spectracal and dont feel good while writing this, I think the potential was huge but it simply fell into wrong hands.
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post #5675 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 05:26 AM
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I think Ted uses the Ultimate version.
No, they worked in Enthusiast, know for sure as I have used it, never had any higher license like pro or ultimate etc.
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post #5676 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 05:47 AM
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A couple of comments:
1) Everyone is making all kinds of assumptions about CM Home when we have not seen any official data on the product yet.
2) I always said CM Enthusiast was a "good value", even with the $69/year maintenance for all the features a home calibrator was getting. Now everyone is realizing just how good we had it.
3) For those who think Autocal has delegated the calibration process to just pressing buttons, they have missed a lot. You can still manually calibrate but for those tough sets, like the Sony and the Samsung, Autocal is just one tool to help speed up and get more consistent results. It gives the calibrator more time to evaluate and make adjustments, when needed based on their experience. Just like manually calibrating, everyone has their own process when using CM Autocal. For the LG, once the 3D LUT works better, you are at a point where you can do more with autocal than you can do manually with user controls.
4) Now that the product is more expensive, or very expensive, it's at a point where users are going to expect "near" perfection and not what we were sometimes getting with official releases. This is really what's going to make or break this product. We will have to see what happens.

No one likes change and no one likes the changes to this product but if the end result is a superior product, then this may be a good thing at the end of the day depending on your perspective. It's going to be interesting to see what happens.

Edit: All these changes look very familiar to me when a large company buys a smaller company and "re-tools" a product.
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post #5677 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
A couple of comments:
1) Everyone is making all kinds of assumptions about CM Home when we have not seen any official data on the product yet.
2) I always said CM Enthusiast was a "good value", even with the $69/year maintenance for all the features a home calibrator was getting. Now everyone is realizing just how good we had it.
3) For those who think Autocal has delegated the calibration process to just pressing buttons, they have missed a lot. You can still manually calibrate but for those tough sets, like the Sony and the Samsung, Autocal is just one tool to help speed up and get more consistent results. It gives the calibrator more time to evaluate and make adjustments, when needed based on their experience. Just like manually calibrating, everyone has their own process when using CM Autocal. For the LG, once the 3D LUT works better, you are at a point where you can do more with autocal than you can do manually with user controls.
4) Now that the product is more expensive, or very expensive, it's at a point where users are going to expect "near" perfection and not what we were sometimes getting with official releases. This is really what's going to make or break this product. We will have to see what happens.

No one likes change and no one likes the changes to this product but if the end result is a superior product, then this may be a good thing at the end of the day depending on your perspective. It's going to be interesting to see what happens.

Edit: All these changes look very familiar to me when a large company buys a smaller company and "re-tools" a product.
I've been through two so-called mergers and it's never easy. The first one (Rational Software over Objectory Corp.) killed the latter's superior competing product (OK, it was written in Smalltalk) but revised its own C++ design. I was in Objectory and it was rough going. But we survived for the most part. Thankfully I retired from my last long job (Cablevision) before it's acquisition by a French corp.

I'm not sure if I'll survive SpectraCal, but we need to see what Home is like before deciding. Maybe reduced functionality is offset by better performance and design factors, I don't know. As John mentioned, even though it's not perfect AutoCal makes the job a lot easier. I always tweak after. But they better come up with facts real soon before too many jump ship.

Let's hope for a good outcome.
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post #5678 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 09:11 AM
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Makes nothing but economic sense.

- New home will be pitched to newbies as "best color engine" (not) and cover mass market.

- Calibrator versions are what brings in the annual fees which is still a noticable bulk of revenue and the business model everyone wants to get going (get paid for people not necessarily using your product). Then you want to slowly raise the price on those - which is what they are doing (by removing less pricey SKUs).

- Confusion in between to raise the incidences of accidental purchase which leads to double spending.

Spectracal is making money!

Also close the official forums, because who needs a 10 year old knowledge base. For us it was invaluable - and the work of hundreds of their users. For their management its just identified as empty spending.

They are selling workflows, not necessarily knowledge.

I wonder when the "may want to stay away from that company..." sentiments start to take overhand. They did everything to provoke it.

The only thing you need is for calibrators to take a stand against it, but its their livelyhood (they sell the pdfs (documentation) the program creates. ), so they probably wont. So newbies will still be buying.

Works.

One of the only evolutions in past years was that pattern generators became cheap. Now Calman is trying to take that price span by making they tiers that support them more expensive. They are selling already finished implementations of open source network protocols for literally thousands of dollars for the next ten years. Its wonderful.
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post #5679 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 09:38 AM
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Makes nothing but economic sense.

- New home will be pitched to n00bs as "best color engine" (not) and cover mass market.

- Calibrator versions are what brings in the annual fees which is still a noticable bulk of revenue and the business model everyone wants to get going (get paid for people not necessarily using your product). Then you want to slowly raise the price on those - which is what they are doing (by removing less pricey skus).

- Confusion in between to raise the incidences of accidental purchase which leads to double spending.

Spectracal is making money!

Also close the official forums, because who needs a 10 year old knowledge base. For us it was invaluable - and the work of hundreds of their users. For their management its just identified as empty spending.

I wonder when the "may want stay away from that company..." sentiments start to take overhand. They did everything to provoke it.

The only thing you need is for calibrators to mak a stand against it, but its their livelyhood, so they probably wont. So the n00bs will still be buying.

Works.
When I see a company reducing a product offering usually it means they are re-writing it or major parts of it and they don't want to maintain a lot of versions. I'm not saying that's what's happening here but it sure does look like it could be. If I had to guess, PD probably looked that the product line up and decided while it might have been good many years ago, times have changed and to them, the new line up makes more sense and will be more cost effective. Especially if they are re-writing in order to try and make CM the best or one of the best color engines. An effort like this takes development staff and the money needed to support it.

I have no idea what the CM user base consists of therefore we will never really be able to understand their motives unless they share it with us. If I had to guess I would say that the bulk of their users are pro's who have the business license and are paying the yearly maintenance vs everyone else. It was fun having an Enthusiast/Pro group on the forums, exchanging ideas, etc.. We will have to see what this product "morphs" into once we get more information and new software.

If i had one request for PD it would be to announce the details of CM Home and lay out a basic "road map" on what they are or are not doing with the product so everyone can make a good informed decision and know where the product is trying to go and what we are expecting to see. If they are making significant investments to make the product one of the best, then they should say so.
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post #5680 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 10:10 AM
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When I see a company reducing a product offering usually it means they are re-writing it or major parts of it and they don't want to maintain a lot of versions.
Not the only reason, but yes - its a possible one. But then, whats a Video Pro and a Studio (Pro?) version? Does the video pro not work in a studio? (*silly mode off..*) Does the consumer not want studio quality in their homes?

Even that differenciation is silly. And leaves people scratching their heads. The whole "feature bundling" game is a racket to begin with, give people the features they need by giving them what they need, and what they might need. Thats a solid business interaction, not bundling, segmenting, and in the end ending up selling network protocols to people for thousands of dollars.

If that really happens, I'm laughing all the way home..

They are not only reducing price tiers, they are also pushing new (and eventually existing) customers into higher priced ones. Thats the subscription model lategame...

Great deal for our existing customers for a limited time - offer, sign now.
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post #5681 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 11:43 AM
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I agree, I've never understood their versions, i.e. Video Pro, Studio and if you want everything you need to get Ultimate.

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post #5682 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 01:47 PM
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Clumsy moves don’t necessarily need logical explanations. I don’t know how many pros are using pro versions and how many of them used the Enthusiast version for doing their job, but one thing is sure: we won’t see any new color engine until 2020 and IMO it would be really stupid to spend money on something that we already have just because it has a (not so) different name.

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post #5683 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 02:13 PM
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Can someone provide a quick explanation for a novice regarding what a color engine is, and why it is important to this conversation? Or provide a link where I can read up for myself?
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post #5684 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 04:43 PM
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Had a special offer in my e-mail from Light Illusion for Calman users. But, it disappeared. Anyone else get the offer e-mailed to them?

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Had a special offer in my e-mail from Light Illusion for Calman users. But, it disappeared. Anyone else get the offer e-mailed to them?
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post #5686 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 06:21 PM
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Right now, the only thing stopping me from going with Light Illusion is Dolby Vision.
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post #5687 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 06:24 PM
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Had a special offer in my e-mail from Light Illusion for Calman users. But, it disappeared. Anyone else get the offer e-mailed to them?
Not directly from Light Illusion...

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post #5688 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 07:19 PM
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I was trying to post the offer here, but, like I said, it disappeared from my e-mail account.
Anyone else who also got it, can you post it to this Forum for all to see?

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post #5689 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 07:23 PM
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I was trying to post the offer here, but, like I said, it disappeared from my e-mail account.

Anyone else who also got it, can you post it to this Forum for all to see?
I would suggest making a new thread for that. You know how the moderators are.
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I was trying to post the offer here, but, like I said, it disappeared from my e-mail account.
Anyone else who also got it, can you post it to this Forum for all to see?
It's a Ted thing, so you might contact him ...
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post #5691 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 09:29 PM
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I always said CM Enthusiast was a "good value", even with the $69/year maintenance for all the features a home calibrator was getting. Now everyone is realizing just how good we had it.
Sorry are we talking about software, or stockholm syndrome?

Hey guys, you didnt even realize how good you had it with your 70 USD/year annual fee tier. That guy always said so.

Also we shouldnt talk about the downgrades really. Not until the next marketing push...
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post #5692 of 7030 Old 03-04-2019, 09:42 PM
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Can someone provide a quick explanation for a novice regarding what a color engine is, and why it is important to this conversation? Or provide a link where I can read up for myself?
Its the math behind it all. Calman had some upsies in that regard in the past. With Lut calibration. With autocal. With entire workflows they championed publicly but didnt test.

"Great feature in accordance with our partners." And then it didnt work. Used the wrong color ranges, or values for peak white... We've had it all.

In terms of this thread its mostly a marketing term, thats thrown around to sell newbies Calman over other calibration solutions. To them its supposed to mean quality - because everyone is using it (because of "most easy" (but longwinded) step by step workflows, and calibrators basically selling the pdf documentation, that comes out of the program, has logos, and their customer databases, and... Its basically a lock in in that regard.), to the people reading the changelogs, and having issues with lets say LG OLED autocal, its mostly a joke.

Not sure if they have fixed most pressing issues by now (probably) - but in the past they hype released with severe problems quite a few times.

Also if the math checks out - everyone is on the same equal level. With lut generation, there is some weighing (algorythm) stuff going on, where one vendor might have the better algo, but with calibration - no. There you get the same outcomes, regardless of whos product you use. With margins so small, that it could as well be your probes tolerance.

Calman by default measures some runs at 75% stimulus, while other solutions always measure them at 100% then there might be a small difference showing, then people attribute this to Calmans accuracy - because they are the big player in town. When in effect, they'd just have to change a setting in other calibration software to measure the same. Stuff like this has added to the myth.
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While I often was very reserved with the critics of $pectracal I now can fully understand the anger of the enthusiasts. I am very, very pi**ed about the things they do now - mostly cause I am losing interest in a thing I really loved and really was passioned about it. Or let me say I am still really passioned and love to do some magic on my displays or projector, but I got that feeling that thing move in the wrong directions.

Real enthusiasts and professionals are the people most suffering here. While the poor pros really dont have another choice than paying the increased manual fees (cause calibration is their job and they need the money, equipment is expensive and needs time to be paid off) we enthusiasts are completely left in the rain. I agree that we dont know what the new basic version will bring - but the idea of having special versions for every manufacturer makes me puke. Oooooh you have a sony tv, buy this version - but wait you have also a panasonic, buy this version also... and the projector in the basement??? But wait, now you have 3 versions and dont forget the annual fee for them...

I fear that the real good things that will be possible with the new TVs will be locked (ddc, lut...), and only be accessible with the special calman versions. Yes you still will probably be able to do manual calibrations, and that will be fine for most normal viewers - but I am enthusiastic about this things and want to get them as good as possible, the word enthusiasts tells the whole story.

The fact that tyler is not really active in this thread is also telling a story. I feel sorry for him as he gets all the hate directed to $pectracal, I am sure he does not like what is happening behind the scenes of $pectracal so be patient with him...
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post #5694 of 7030 Old 03-05-2019, 04:29 AM
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what pisses me off since this issue raised it's head was I didnt even realise that there was an annual fee
I saw no mention of it when I bought Enthusiast or I probably wouldn't have bothered
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Its the math behind it all. Calman had some upsies in that regard in the past. With Lut calibration. With autocal. With entire workflows they championed publicly but didnt test.

"Great feature in accordance with our partners." And then it didnt work. Used the wrong color ranges, or values for peak white... We've had it all.

In terms of this thread its mostly a marketing term, thats thrown around to sell newbies Calman over other calibration solutions. To them its supposed to mean quality - because everyone is using it (because of "most easy" (but longwinded) step by step workflows, and calibrators basically selling the pdf documentation, that comes out of the program, has logos, and their customer databases, and... Its basically a lock in in that regard.), to the people reading the changelogs, and having issues with lets say LG OLED autocal, its mostly a joke.

Not sure if they have fixed most pressing issues by now (probably) - but in the past they hype released with severe problems quite a few times.

Also if the math checks out - everyone is on the same equal level. With lut generation, there is some weighing (algorythm) stuff going on, where one vendor might have the better algo, but with calibration - no. There you get the same outcomes, regardless of whos product you use. With margins so small, that it could as well be your probes tolerance.

Calman by default measures some runs at 75% stimulus, while other solutions always measure them at 100% then there might be a small difference showing, then people attribute this to Calmans accuracy - because they are the big player in town. When in effect, they'd just have to change a setting in other calibration software to measure the same. Stuff like this has added to the myth.
I really didn't want to comment on this post but someone has to give the other side of the story, you guys are way too critical.

I agree CM almost always has bugs like any other software but as far as the workflows, they are designed so you can change most values, and with the design function make any kind of customized layout. So if you want 100% stimulus, just change the value and save to a customized name. I have several custom workflows I use all the time and a lot of folks here do the same. I know loosing Design Mode is a big issue for this very reason but you can still change some parameters and save the workflow.

LG autocal is not a joke. When we didn't have it everyone wanted something like that. True the 3D LUT has slight banding but time will tell if that will be fixed. But you have a ton of 1D LUT options, Dolby Vision and HDR calibration couldn't be easier.

For a home Enthusiast, CM is very easy to use. Just look at the forums to see how many went out and purchased basic equipment and are calibrating with autocal. It may not be as good as a professional calibration for many reasons but it works and gives a nice result.

As for professional calibrators, you can manage an excellent calibration in a reasonable amount of time, no matter what your process is, for any set in the field which is probably why I believe most use it. I don't believe you professionally calibrate but just try and do a Dolby Vision calibration on an LG manually What a pain.

I can go on and on and i'm sure you can as well so please don't. I just want to mention some of the other side of the story.

At the end of the day i'm not happy about loosing Enthusiast since some day when I retire for good, I was hoping to downgrade back to it and calibrate my own sets as a hobby. I feel PD is doing a really poor job with this transition which is making everyone very upset. Everyone is correct, there are competitive calibration products so everyone has a choice once the dust clears. It will be very interesting to see what happens.

PD has to:
- Communicate better with it's user base. This is probably the #1 most important thing they need to do.
- Have a clear product line up that makes sense and is priced appropriately.
- Improve their internal testing and use a more formal Beta test program, similar to how Oppo had.
- Fix some of the critical inherent bugs that users have been complaining about for years. If parts or all of the software needs to be re-written, as most software after a while does, then do it Now that the cost of the product has gone up substantially, users are going to "expect" more "major bug free" releases and more rapid bug fixes.

^^^ Hum this sounds like it can apply to most software development companies.

Everyone has their own opinion depending on their situation, needs, and expectations, that's fine, the above is my opinion for my specific needs and expectations.

John
Sony 55A1E, A9F / LG 55OLEDC8
Marantz 7012, Ohm Walsh Speakers
Klein K10-A, Jeti 1501, Murideo Six-G Gen2
Calman Ultimate, ISF Level III Certified

Last edited by jrref; 03-05-2019 at 07:04 AM.
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post #5696 of 7030 Old 03-05-2019, 07:25 AM
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John, I share your opinion on the software itself, but I think what upset people here is not the software but the way PD/SC played with customers’ loyalty. There’s nothing that the “new” version could do that is gonna change people’s feelings about that disrespectful move, not even if it was for free.

Miki
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TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | SintoAmp: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP, Portrait Displays CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018 R3, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2 - i1 Display Pro OEM B-02, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #5697 of 7030 Old 03-05-2019, 08:03 AM
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design function grayed out in 2018 ver.
what am i missing?
did it get taken away?

Loving D65
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post #5698 of 7030 Old 03-05-2019, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by CalWldLif View Post
design function grayed out in 2018 ver.
what am i missing?
did it get taken away?
In Enthusiast, for some time now you need to contact Support to get the Add-On provided.

---------------------------------------
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post #5699 of 7030 Old 03-05-2019, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
John, I share your opinion on the software itself, but I think what upset people here is not the software but the way PD/SC played with customers’ loyalty. There’s nothing that the “new” version could do that is gonna change people’s feelings about that disrespectful move, not even if it was for free.

Miki
Miki, agreed, I believe from their perspective the discount to upgrade to Video Pro/Studio was a loyalty offer but not many need that level of software. Let's see what they come up with.

John
Sony 55A1E, A9F / LG 55OLEDC8
Marantz 7012, Ohm Walsh Speakers
Klein K10-A, Jeti 1501, Murideo Six-G Gen2
Calman Ultimate, ISF Level III Certified
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post #5700 of 7030 Old 03-05-2019, 08:26 AM
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In Enthusiast, for some time now you need to contact Support to get the Add-On provided.
yes enthusiast.
had calman since 3.5/4

so i have to call portrait/calman company?

geez.
what ver started the activate on line thing?

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