CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 209 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6241 of 6934 Old 05-03-2019, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
It looks like this was an oversight. It will be changed in the next release sometime later next week. Thank you for your feedback.

You will be able to do up to 10,000 points iRP or Time Based.
Ok, thank you for this clarification.

I'll post more notes later, I had a first try at using Calman Home last night and I'm still discovering things.
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post #6242 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
That's a good question, Mike, and one I cannot answer. I was just spitballing a possible reason for a limit on available 3D LUT creation schemes.
Hence my use of the word "rhetorical"!

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post #6243 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I’ve been testing the larger LUTs and they work fine.
Ok, but I had been labouring under the assumption that the problems to which @Rolls-Royce referred were the ones that the resident Lightspace proselytisers are often describing and that we've (all) been waiting on a fix for. Unless I have missed something there is still at least one outstanding bug? If I've got this wrong then of course I apologise in advance.

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post #6244 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I’ve been testing the larger LUTs and they work fine.

Did you only check the chart numbers? Ted`s patterns shows the real problems,pics from my lg 77c8 (december 5th) with full calman 3dlut,its a no go.
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post #6245 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 05:04 AM
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Probably John wanted to say “It works fine as usual” lol
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post #6246 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 05:09 AM
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From the release notes for CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2019 RC1
"Enabled unity grayscale option for LG 2018 C8 3D LUT."
What is this for, and when would you use it please? TIA

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post #6247 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
Did you only check the chart numbers? Ted`s patterns shows the real problems,pics from my lg 77c8 (december 5th) with full calman 3dlut,its a no go.
I know this is the big burning question. Without having any inside knowledge of any Calman fixes and or changes to the 3D LUT creation process I can only report what I experienced testing the beta which I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to do. I calibrated five 2019s so far and I did find doing a point based 3D LUT corrected CMS issues that I was unable to resolve with the CMS controls or a matrix LUT. Because of time constraints, I've done several 1,300 pt and 3,000 pt 3D LUTs and used Ted's color ramp patterns to look at the results. On the 2019 LGs with CM 2019, there is still some slight banding in the very dark blue area of the pattern BUT it is very very slight. I needed to put my glasses on and look right up to the panel to see it. This compared to doing the same on a C8 with CM 2018 where it was very easy to see banding in the blue-magenta areas of the test pattern.

So I don't know if the improvement i'm seeing is because of CM or LG or a combination of both but I was very pleased to see improvement to the point where although I would like to see a perfect result, the result is very good even though if I looked hard enough I could barely see banding in the test pattern and there was no way I could see it with content.

Now I'm using a Klein profiled to a Jeti with the recommended pattern insertion delays, etc and also making sure no patches are left on the screen during LUT calculations which I believe is fixed in the RC version, so your results may differ since there are all kind of things that can effect the result with these OLEDs. Also i'm sure there will be users with those "magic" eyes who will stare at specific content instead of watching it and claim there is a problem. I believe work is being done on CM to make the 3D LUT perfect and will probably see results of that work in a subsequent release.

Overall, I felt CM 2019 in the configuration I use, worked very well without issue for SDR, HDR and DV picture mode calibrations. As I've stated before I feel the new HDR calibration with the custom tone mapping made a visible positive change when calibrating HDR since now you are able to measure the peak luminance of your specific panel after the native 20 pt calibration and recreate and load new tone maps for 1,000, 4,000, and 10,000 nits or your own specific one to the set. It fixed the problem that D-Nice found where the set deviated from the EOTF curve making the picture look overly bright and too saturated and improves near black and overall detail.

I'm very busy at the store so I won't have an opportunity to do any additional experimenting but I hope my observations help.
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post #6248 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 06:21 AM
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Well i cant comment if its fixed in CM 2019 or in the LG C9 models since i dont use/have those,hopefully its fixed or will be for other customers.

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post #6249 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I know this is the big burning question. Without having any inside knowledge of any Calman fixes and or changes to the 3D LUT creation process I can only report what I experienced testing the beta which I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to do.[...]

I'm very busy at the store so I won't have an opportunity to do any additional experimenting but I hope my observations help.
They do for me, thankyou. I look forward to trying Calman 2019 with my 2018 LG C8.
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post #6250 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 10:07 AM
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For Luminance chart with odd gray levels like QLED SDR and OLED HDR in column and logarithmic mode with White 300 Nits or greater, the Y axis text gets garbled.
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post #6251 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
From the release notes for CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2019 RC1


"Enabled unity grayscale option for LG 2018 C8 3D LUT."

What is this for, and when would you use it please? TIA


It helps reduce banding in the neutral spline and near by areas of the 3D LUT.

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post #6252 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 01:27 PM
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I am not very experienced with calibration, so the 2019 Calman Home for Samsung seemed promising to calibrate my 2018 Samsung Q9FN TV in SDR mode. Here's my experience.

I'm using inexpensive equipment, an i1 Display Pro meter and MobileForge running on a 4K fire TV. After reading the walkthrough, I did a couple of runs. Focusing on one TV brand allows Spectracal to set most of the options to the proper defaults, so the Autocal workflow is pretty much, well, Auto.

The 2 point and 20 point greyscale went perfectly. The color results were a bit puzzling. After Autocal, the CMS targets seemed shifted to the red. I was able to easily correct this with a manual adjust of the Red values, from RGB 0,0,0 to 0,25,13.

I'm not really sure if this manual change was important, of if it did some harm I'm not aware of. I've enclosed the final results along with a PDF showing Color readings from Samsung Default -> full Autocal -> Autocal with manual red adjustment.

Edit - Picture settings:

Picture Mode - Movie
Backlight 21
Brightness 0
Contrast 45
Gamma 0
Tint 0
Color 30

All effects off.
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post #6253 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_O View Post
I am not very experienced with calibration, so the 2019 Calman Home for Samsung seemed promising to calibrate my 2018 Samsung Q9FN TV in SDR mode. Here's my experience.

I'm using inexpensive equipment, an i1 Display Pro meter and MobileForge running on a 4K fire TV. After reading the walkthrough, I did a couple of runs. Focusing on one TV brand allows Spectracal to set most of the options to the proper defaults, so the Autocal workflow is pretty much, well, Auto.

The 2 point and 20 point greyscale went perfectly. The color results were a bit puzzling. After Autocal, the CMS targets seemed shifted to the red. I was able to easily correct this with a manual adjust of the Red values, from RGB 0,0,0 to 0,25,13.

I'm not really sure if this manual change was important, of if it dis some harm I'm not aware of. I've enclosed the final results along with a PDF showing Color readings from Samsung Default -> full Autocal -> Autocal with manual red adjustment.
What picture mode, and what were your initial settings for Backlight, Brightness, Contrast, Gamma, Tint and Color?

Any of the "smart" effects enabled?

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post #6254 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 02:06 PM
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Picture Mode Movie
Backlight 21
Brightness 0
Contrast 45
Gamma 0
Tint 0
Color 30

All effects off.

Last edited by Dave_O; 05-04-2019 at 02:46 PM.
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post #6255 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_O View Post
Picture Mode Movie
Backlight 21
Brightness 0
Contrast 45
Gamma 0
Tint 0
Color 30

All effects off.
What were the original Factory Defaults for these settings?
Are these new, since usually on the older sets, Brightness is usually 45, and Contrast up over 80?

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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
What were the original Factory Defaults for these settings?
Are these new, since usually on the older sets, Brightness is usually 45, and Contrast up over 80?
Samsung has changed some control ranges and their defaults at least once (2017) that I know of, and possibly more.

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post #6257 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Samsung has changed some control ranges and their defaults at least once (2017) that I know of, and possibly more.
Thanks - it must be 2017, since I have the 2016 KS9800 which has the original settings of the older sets .
So what are the original factory settings of the new sets?

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post #6258 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
What were the original Factory Defaults for these settings?
Are these new, since usually on the older sets, Brightness is usually 45, and Contrast up over 80?
I think they were

Backlight 20
Contrast 45
Sharpness 0
Color 25
Tint 0

See
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post #6259 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
What were the original Factory Defaults for these settings?
Are these new, since usually on the older sets, Brightness is usually 45, and Contrast up over 80?
For these displays the highest Contrast is 50, but Brightness is + and - 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_O View Post
Picture Mode Movie
Backlight 21
Brightness 0
Contrast 45
Gamma 0
Tint 0
Color 30

All effects off.
I could never get Color over 27 to AutoCal Red properly.

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post #6260 of 6934 Old 05-04-2019, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_O View Post
Picture Mode Movie
Backlight 21
Brightness 0
Contrast 45
Gamma 0
Tint 0
Color 30

All effects off.
I think there is a quirk in calMAN, I have a 2017 Samsung with default colour at 50, Home enthusiast would auto cal the CMS and all would be ok.

I noticed when messing with Home edition last night that I was getting odd results with CMS, when looking at my settings the colour setting had also shifted to 30.

I reset and redid keeping the DDC window open, when I moved from greyscale to CMS the colour changed all on its on down to 30???? I went into the menu and manually changed it back to the default, the CMS auto cal then worked fine.

Another small bug is the tint g/r setting also reads wrong on 2017 sets. It says 35 or something in DDC when it is actually 50/50 on the TV. I adjusted this to the middle in DDC but fortunately i had to go into the TV menu to check something and noticed it had moved to far the other way

cheers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chopples123 View Post
I think there is a quirk in calMAN, I have a 2017 Samsung with default colour at 50, Home enthusiast would auto cal the CMS and all would be ok.

I noticed when messing with Home edition last night that I was getting odd results with CMS, when looking at my settings the colour setting had also shifted to 30.

I reset and redid keeping the DDC window open, when I moved from greyscale to CMS the colour changed all on its on down to 30???? I went into the menu and manually changed it back to the default, the CMS auto cal then worked fine.

Another small bug is the tint g/r setting also reads wrong on 2017 sets. It says 35 or something in DDC when it is actually 50/50 on the TV. I adjusted this to the middle in DDC but fortunately i had to go into the TV menu to check something and noticed it had moved to far the other way

cheers
Probably the case. The 2019 downloads are RC1, (First Release Candidate). Hopefully these small bugs will be fixed soon. I was comfortable being an early adapter for the Samsung Home version as the software does not change any settings requiring access to the Service Menu to undo.
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post #6262 of 6934 Old 05-05-2019, 08:38 AM
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We had that tint slider problem with the 2018 QLEDs on CalMAN 2018 at first but they corrected it.
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post #6263 of 6934 Old 05-05-2019, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chopples123 View Post
Another small bug is the tint g/r setting also reads wrong on 2017 sets. It says 35 or something in DDC when it is actually 50/50 on the TV. I adjusted this to the middle in DDC but fortunately i had to go into the TV menu to check something and noticed it had moved to far the other way

cheers
It isn't necessarily a bug. DDC numbers do not exactly coincide with those in the user controls, having more available steps for adjustment. I've previously seen this in my 2016 KS8000 as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
It isn't necessarily a bug. DDC numbers do not exactly coincide with those in the user controls, having more available steps for adjustment. I've previously seen this in my 2016 KS8000 as well.
For the 2018 QLED there actually was a bug. DDC showed Tint as 0-30 while actual TV menu showed +- 15 (more in line with the Green-Red aspect, - for Green and + for Red) which was very confusing. They fixed it so DDC also showed +- 15.

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In the 2019 Calman Home for Samsung autocal workflow, the Backlight, Brightness and Contrast settings are done manually. I'm curious as to why the Brightness and Contrast are positioned after the Greyscale and Colorspace auto calibrations have been done. Why wouldn't Backlight, Brightness and Contrast adjustments be done after the DCC Reset, but before the Autocal process starts, so the results would not be altered?

Last edited by Dave_O; 05-05-2019 at 10:24 AM.
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post #6266 of 6934 Old 05-05-2019, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_O View Post
In the 2019 Calman Home for Samsung autocal workflow, the Backlight, Brightness and Contrast settings are done manually. I'm curious as to why the Brightness and Contrast are positioned after the Greyscale and Colorspace auto calibrations have been done. Why wouldn't Backlight, Brightness and Contrast adjustments be done after the DCC Reset, but before the Autocal process starts, so the results would not be altered?
In the original Autocal routine for the 2016 KS series, all those were set during the DDC reset done by the software (the autocal does need certain values set to defaults to run properly). However, they remained at those settings, resulting in an SDR 100% White of ~ 275 nits. So backlight had to be set manually if you weren't going to run that bright or wanted to stay at the Rec. 709 recommendations. I don't know the reasoning behind the current scheme.

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post #6267 of 6934 Old 05-05-2019, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
In the original Autocal routine for the 2016 KS series, all those were set during the DDC reset done by the software (the autocal does need certain values set to defaults to run properly). However, they remained at those settings, resulting in an SDR 100% White of ~ 275 nits. So backlight had to be set manually if you weren't going to run that bright or wanted to stay at the Rec. 709 recommendations. I don't know the reasoning behind the current scheme.
It is weird. AutoCal shouldn't mess with the basic settings. Thankfully it's not doing that with Enthusiast.

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post #6268 of 6934 Old 05-05-2019, 01:20 PM
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I find this discussion about autocal changing settings confusing. Autocal using Enthusiast on my Sony Z9F doesn’t result in any unexpected settings changes. Is the behavior different on other displays?
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post #6269 of 6934 Old 05-05-2019, 01:35 PM
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I find this discussion about autocal changing settings confusing. Autocal using Enthusiast on my Sony Z9F doesn’t result in any unexpected settings changes. Is the behavior different on other displays?
No the problem appears to be with Home, not Enthusiast, which I also use. I've never had it change basic settings, just the custom multi-point and CMS settings as expected.

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post #6270 of 6934 Old 05-05-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
It is weird. AutoCal shouldn't mess with the basic settings. Thankfully it's not doing that with Enthusiast.
Enthusiast is what I have used for years, and it did this at one time on the KS sets. I haven't done an Autocal in quite some time, so I don't know if that behavior has changed.

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