CalMan 5 Release Notes and Discussion - Page 222 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6631 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
The context of that I'm sure implies if the calibration process is new or renewed after a long time to a specific unit. There should be little to no deviation in the output properties over a short time frame(>24hrs) to warrant a new profile on the same unit.
I think he's also calibrating a projector.
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post #6632 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I think he's also calibrating a projector.
This entire conversation stems from my post revealing a major flaw in Calman.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showt...php?p=58199970
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post #6633 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Would you link to how you did the profile that works? I couldn't find it. I'll test that and see if I have different results.

Edit: Nevermind. I'll try connecting my spectro first and then my HDR2000. I'll report my findings tonight.
The CalMAN "how to profile" video recommends attaching both meters before launching CalMAN and after connecting to a source, first "finding" the connected reference spectro and then "finding" the connected target meter.

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post #6634 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by poppagene View Post
The CalMAN "how to profile" video recommends attaching both meters before launching CalMAN and after connecting to a source, first "finding" the connected reference spectro and then "finding" the connected target meter.
I know. I read that too. However when both meters are connected and I launch Calman, the HDR2000 is automatically detected. The only way I can prevent it from being automatically connected is by plugging it in after launching Calman.
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post #6635 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 03:46 PM
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Update to the spectro/colorimeter issue.

I did 3 tests and screenshot each result.

1st test was with the HDR2000 connected only.
2nd test was with the i1Pro 2 connected and then connecting the HDR2000.
3rd test was with the HDR2000 connected and then connecting the i1Pro 2.
Each test was accomplished with a fresh start of Calman.

The results show that the HDR2000 readings are virtually identical when connected alone or when the i1Pro 2 is connected first. If the HDR2000 is connected first, then connect the i1Pro 2 there is a major difference in readings.

This proves that Calman recommendation of connecting both meters prior to opening Calman is not correct. It also proves there is an issue with the spectro being connected 2nd that Spectracal needs to fix.

All the time I spent wasted calibrating over the last 2 years and many calibrations that were likely invalid because of this issue. I can't imagine how many home enthusiasts or professional calibrations have been performed with this issue effecting it! They need to address this ASAP! It should be priority #1 !
@shoman94 This verifies your test by connecting the spectro first prevents the issue.
@WiFi-Spy Please address this.

A side note Calman seems to crash when I open Paint in Windows 10. When I took screenshots of Calman for these tests it would crash every time. Calman 2019 V5.10.0.50

Last edited by skschatzman; 06-19-2019 at 03:59 PM.
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post #6636 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Update to the spectro/colorimeter issue.

I did 3 tests and screenshot each result.

1st test was with the HDR2000 only.
2nd test was with the i1Pro 2 connected and then connecting the HDR2000.
3rd test was with the HDR2000 connected and then connecting the i1Pro 2.
Each test was accomplished with a fresh start of Calman.

The results show that the HDR2000 readings are virtually identical when connected alone or when the i1Pro 2 is connected first. If the HDR2000 is connected first, then connect the i1Pro 2 there is a major difference in readings.

This proves that Calman recommendation of connecting both meters prior to opening Calman is not correct. It also proves there is an issue with the spectro being connected 2nd that Spectracal needs to fix.

All the time I spent wasted calibrating over the last 2 years and many calibrations that were likely invalid because of this issue. I can't imagine how many home enthusiasts or professional calibrations have been performed with this issue effecting it! They need to address this ASAP! It should be priority #1 !
@shoman94 This verifies your test by connecting the spectro first prevents the issue.
@WiFi-Spy Please address this.

A side note Calman seems to crash when I open Paint I. Windows. When I was screenshot Calman for these tests it would crash every time. Calman 2019 V5.10.0.50
So once I profiled by opening Calman, then connect the Spectrophotometer then connecting the Colorimeter.....profiling and saving....... After that I could go into Calman with just my Colorimeter and the profile would work correctly. Is that what you're seeing?

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post #6637 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
So once I profiled by opening Calman, then connect the Spectrophotometer then connecting the Colorimeter.....profiling and saving....... After that I could go into Calman with just my Colorimeter and the profile would work correctly. Is that what you're seeing?

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Yes
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post #6638 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Yes
As far as I know a fix is in the works.

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post #6639 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
As far as I know a fix is in the works.

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Yah, but this is something that should have been addressed openly. I have not seen any open discussions on this. Seems as though they are intentionally quiet trying to sweep this under the rug. A bad thing for a company like this to do for an issue that could have impacted many calibrations. Including paid professional calibrations.
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post #6640 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 04:09 PM
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Hi Guys,
I profile my i2display pro with the i2pro2, does this look correct to you?
The tv was warm up for 1 hours
The i1 pro2 and i1 displau pro were plug for 1 hours
I took the reading using dark mode and having the 100 white on 100 nit.
I reset the cms before taking the reading.
Let me know if i miss anything , thanks
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post #6641 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Yah, but this is something that should have been addressed openly. I have not seen any open discussions on this. Seems as though they are intentionally quiet trying to sweep this under the rug. A bad thing for a company like this to do for an issue that could have impacted many calibrations. Including paid professional calibrations.
I would think the professional calibrator will create a profile and calibrate in the same session so this bug wouldn't tear it's ugly head. I got nothing on other situations......

I tried searching back in November 2018 when I noticed it. I did many calibrations on my Vizio with this bug. Since I have a work around and I know a real fix is coming I'm good. I was told it was limited to my Spectro so apparently not. It may be something with xrite Spectro's only.

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post #6642 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I would think the professional calibrator will create a profile and calibrate in the same session so this bug wouldn't tear it's ugly head. I got nothing on other situations......
As long as the professional connects the spectro first. Based on the Calman recommendation there is no way to tell how many people could have experienced the issue by connecting both meters prior to opening Calman.
Quote:
I tried searching back in November 2018 when I noticed it. I did many calibrations on my Vizio with this bug. Since I have a work around and I know a real fix is coming I'm good. I was told it was limited to my Spectro so apparently not. It may be something with xrite Spectro's only.

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post #6643 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Toto84 View Post
Hi Guys,
I profile my i2display pro with the i2pro2, does this look correct to you?
The tv was warm up for 1 hours
The i1 pro2 and i1 displau pro were plug for 1 hours
I took the reading using dark mode and having the 100 white on 100 nit.
I reset the cms before taking the reading.
Let me know if i miss anything , thanks
We need a grayscale reading of your colorimeter connected alone, a reading of the colorimeter before the spectro is connected, a reading of the colorimeter after the spectro is connected and a reading of your spectro alone.
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post #6644 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
As long as the professional connects the spectro first. Based on the Calman recommendation there is no way to tell how many people could have experienced the issue by connecting both meters prior to opening Calman.

So even if I connected the colorimeter first then my spectro and then profiled, it worked fine for that session for me. If I went in the next day I would see that error like you did, so then I could connect the Spectro and find it.... Then switch back to my Colorimeter and select the profile and it would work fine.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #6645 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 04:32 PM
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I always have both meters plugged in when I start. Each meter is installed on it's own tripod, and height and distance from the screen is set to that recommended for both.
Calibration of 2 Point and CMS is done with the spectro, and THEN I profile to the colormeter. This method cut down on the differences when I was profiling at the start of a session. This leaves the color meter still warming up as I use the spectro. Panel is initially warmed up for an hour. Spectro only needs a half hour warm up, the colormeter much more. Profile results are far closer using this method.
Next calibration session, if only using the colormeter, a scan of the 2 point shows me if anything has drifted. From what you're saying, since the spectro is not connected, I should see the colormeter results would have drifted. I haven't found this
Only issues I have had is results during Winter, are different from those of the Summer.

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post #6646 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 04:58 PM
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Well, I tried reading with both iPro2 and C6-HDR connected, without profile selected looked quite different than with profile which looked like current calibration. I then quit and restarted CalMAN with only C6-HDR connected and got same reading results, so I guess I'm OK

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post #6647 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
So even if I connected the colorimeter first then my spectro and then profiled, it worked fine for that session for me. If I went in the next day I would see that error like you did, so then I could connect the Spectro and find it.... Then switch back to my Colorimeter and select the profile and it would work fine.

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The profile will only be valid if the spectro is connected before connecting the colorimeter and then create a profile. According to my test results since Calman will automatically connect to the colorimeter if it is plugged into the USB prior to starting Calman.
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post #6648 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 05:02 PM
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Well, I tried reading with both iPro2 and C6-HDR connected, without profile selected looked quite different than with profile which looked like current calibration. I then quit and restarted CalMAN with only C6-HDR connected and got same reading results, so I guess I'm OK
Did you connect to the colorimeter first and then the spectro?
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post #6649 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Did you connect to the colorimeter first and then the spectro?
First time around I started CalMAN with only the iPro2 plugged in and it connected automatically. I then plugged in the C6-HDR and connected it manually then reading both with and without profile. I then quit, unplugged the iPro2 and restarted CalMAN for the second round with only the C6-HDR connected with the same reading results.

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post #6650 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
First time around I started CalMAN with only the iPro2 plugged in and it connected automatically. I then plugged in the C6-HDR and connected it manually then reading both with and without profile. I then quit, unplugged the iPro2 and restarted CalMAN for the second round with the same reading results.
Then you didn't do it right. To see the issue you need to connect the colorimeter first. Take a reading. Then connect the spectro and take a 2nd reading with the colorimeter.
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post #6651 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Then you didn't do it right. To see the issue you need to connect the colorimeter first. Take a reading. Then connect the spectro and take a 2nd reading with the colorimeter.
I'm not trying to verify the problem, which based on the various posts exists, I was trying to verify my profile was good

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post #6652 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 05:21 PM
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I'm not trying to verify the problem, which based on the various posts exists, I was trying to verify my profile was good
Got it.
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post #6653 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 05:21 PM
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I'm not trying to verify the problem, which based on the various posts exists, I was trying to verify my profile was good
If you profiled your meter in that same direction you explained above then you won't see the problem anyway. Really it's only an issue if you connect the meter first then Spectro.... Create your profile. Then when you exit and go.in another time only using the meter, your reading will be way off even if you select the profile you previously made.

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post #6654 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Our engineers are currently looking into this issue. We believe it only applies if you are using an X-rite based spectro. It seems to be related to the order in which the devices were connected to CalMAN. I have confirmed that it does not happen if you are using a non-x-rite spectroradiometer.

If you connect your spectroradiometer to CalMAN first, And then connect your colorimeter, then create profile, you will not have this issue. We will update you guys as soon as we know more on when we will be releasing a fix.

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post #6655 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Our engineers are currently looking into this issue. We believe it only applies if you are using an X-rite based spectro. It seems to be related to the order in which the devices were connected to CalMAN. I have confirmed that it does not happen if you are using a non-x-rite spectroradiometer.

If you connect your spectroradiometer to CalMAN first, And then connect your colorimeter, then create profile, you will not have this issue. We will update you guys as soon as we know more on when we will be releasing a fix.
Thanks Tyler for confirming....

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My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+

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post #6656 of 6789 Old 06-19-2019, 09:48 PM
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So it’s not related to the colorimeter but to the xrite spectro... interesting. Just back from a long absence and realized that something never change with some software. Thanks for your discovery @skschatzman (btw don’t give too much importance to what some people say about what you found out, they’re just defending the indefensible). Just like you now I’m questioning myself if my calibrations are good... oh wait! I didn’t use CM! Lol
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post #6657 of 6789 Old 06-20-2019, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
Our engineers are currently looking into this issue. We believe it only applies if you are using an X-rite based spectro. It seems to be related to the order in which the devices were connected to CalMAN. I have confirmed that it does not happen if you are using a non-x-rite spectroradiometer.

If you connect your spectroradiometer to CalMAN first, And then connect your colorimeter, then create profile, you will not have this issue. We will update you guys as soon as we know more on when we will be releasing a fix.
Thanks for investigating this.

It isn't related to just the spectro, I have an i1pro2 and this never happens with a Discus.

It could be related to using a spectro and a colorimeter both made by xrite, which is the most common brand for enthusiasts / non pro users.

Shoman94 reported having the issue with a Colormunki, not an i1pro2, and an xrite colorimeter (forgot which).

Try an i1pro2 with a non x-rite meter, you shouldn't be able to reproduce the issue.

For those wondering how many professional calibrations are affected by this, the answer is zero.

Only an amateur would re-use a profile made with a different display in a different session. A pro would always run a new profile for each display/projector calibrated, and a pro would most likely not use an x-rite spectro anyway, which isn't a reference meter. A pro would also verify some of the calibration with the spectro, to make sure the results are valid.

Only amateurs do not run a fresh profile for each session when they want accurate results, and do not do a final check of the results with the spectro.

Not to say that this bug shouldn't be fixed, only that it doesn't happen with every meter combo and most likely doesn't happen for a professional calibration, because both the method and the meters used would be different.
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Last edited by Manni01; 06-20-2019 at 01:07 AM.
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post #6658 of 6789 Old 06-20-2019, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
So it’s not related to the colorimeter but to the xrite spectro... interesting. Just back from a long absence and realized that something never change with some software. Thanks for your discovery @skschatzman (btw don’t give too much importance to what some people say about what you found out, they’re just defending the indefensible). Just like you now I’m questioning myself if my calibrations are good... oh wait! I didn’t use CM! Lol
I can't take credit. @shoman94 discovered it last year...
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post #6659 of 6789 Old 06-20-2019, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
For those wondering how many professional calibrations are affected by this, the answer is zero.



Only an amateur would re-use a profile made with a different display in a different session. A pro would always run a new profile for each display/projector calibrated, and a pro would most likely not use an x-rite spectro anyway, which isn't a reference meter. A pro would also verify some of the calibration with the spectro, to make sure the results are valid.



Only amateurs do not run a fresh profile for each session when they want accurate results, and do not do a final check of the results with the spectro.



Not to say that this bug shouldn't be fixed, only that it doesn't happen with every meter combo and most likely doesn't happen for a professional calibration, because both the method and the meters used would be different.
I call BS! There is no way for you or anyone to know there have been zero professional calibrations effected by this. The issue is related to the order of connectivity and can effect newly created profiles.

I1Pro 2 spectrophotometers come with a NIST certification. Spectracal used to sell a version that was enhanced using a Konica Minolta. Spectracal sells professional Calman packages with X-rite meters. There are many Professional calibrators that use or have used X-rite spectrophotometers and colorimeters over the years. ISF certification does not limit or require non X-rite meters. A lot of professionals will start with affordable meters(like from X-rite) and upgrade later. This is based on my experience conversing with some professionals in my area and the internet.

Here is a video of a paid professional ISF level II calibrator using an X-rite i1Pro2 and i1Display Pro.
Please don't spread false information.
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Last edited by skschatzman; 06-20-2019 at 06:08 AM.
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post #6660 of 6789 Old 06-20-2019, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
I call BS! There is no way for you or anyone to know there have been zero professional calibrations effected by this. The issue is related to the order of connectivity and can effect newly created profiles.

I1Pro 2 spectrophotometers come with a NIST certification. Spectracal used to sell a version that was enhanced using a Konica Minolta. Spectracal sells professional Calman packages with X-rite meters. There are many Professional calibrators that use or have used X-rite spectrophotometers and colorimeters over the years. ISF certification does not limit or require non X-rite meters. A lot of professionals will start with affordable meters(like from X-rite) and upgrade later. This is based on my experience conversing with some professionals in my area and the internet.

https://youtu.be/LfmtSNyt6V4
Here is a video of a paid professional ISF level II calibrator using an X-rite i1Pro2 and i1Display Pro.
Please don't spread false information.
FYI: This video is from 2016, Jason now uses a Jeti and K10A.
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