Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark Blu-Ray 2nd Edition - Page 34 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 93Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #991 of 1018 Old 10-15-2018, 08:01 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 21,043
Mentioned: 405 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11430 Post(s)
Liked: 6767
On a different note, I followed the recent 2018 TV Shootout conducted by Value Electronics in NY. During the TV evaluations, there was a mention of some beta HDR test patterns being used that Stacy Spears has been developing, possibly for inclusion in a much-anticipated S&M version 3. No mention was made as to when an updated test disk might be released, but many of us who are DIY calibrators would really like a way to conduct HDR calibrations on our displays.

If Stacy is still monitoring this thread, perhaps he will provide additional information.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post56859416

Last edited by AustinJerry; 10-15-2018 at 08:05 AM.
AustinJerry is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #992 of 1018 Old 10-15-2018, 10:58 AM
Member
 
filmguy123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Thanks. Ok, so, the disc is still worth it and works fine with 4K displays, etc.

It just doesn't calibrate for HDR? And that will come "someday" and I am probably best off just buying the 2nd edition now and the 3rd edition again when available? (Hopefully not in 2 months, lol).

Thanks for the help!

PS - Also, is the 2nd edition worth it over the 1st if I can get the 1st edition almost / basically free?

Last edited by filmguy123; 10-15-2018 at 11:06 AM.
filmguy123 is offline  
post #993 of 1018 Old 10-15-2018, 11:18 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 21,043
Mentioned: 405 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11430 Post(s)
Liked: 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmguy123 View Post
Thanks. Ok, so, the disc is still worth it and works fine with 4K displays, etc.

It just doesn't calibrate for HDR? And that will come "someday" and I am probably best off just buying the 2nd edition now and the 3rd edition again when available? (Hopefully not in 2 months, lol).

Thanks for the help!

PS - Also, is the 2nd edition worth it over the 1st if I can get the 1st edition almost / basically free?
The 2nd edition is definitely the one you want.
AustinJerry is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #994 of 1018 Old 10-15-2018, 11:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
Anger.miki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked: 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmguy123 View Post
Thanks. Ok, so, the disc is still worth it and works fine with 4K displays, etc.

It just doesn't calibrate for HDR? And that will come "someday" and I am probably best off just buying the 2nd edition now and the 3rd edition again when available? (Hopefully not in 2 months, lol).

Thanks for the help!

PS - Also, is the 2nd edition worth it over the 1st if I can get the 1st edition almost / basically free?
If you gonna calibrate a 11 point grayscale only TV then 2nd edition is OK but it doesn’t have the patch order that CalMAN requires. But if I’m not wrong, you wanna calibrate a 4K Display, so you need a disc with more than 11 point GS and correct patch order. Ted’s disc is IMO the best solution out there. You can try the free version if you want and then, if you like it, you can buy the full version which is awesome. You can read about it here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...1454804?page=1
mombasa123 likes this.

TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | SintoAmp: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP, Portrait Displays CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018 R3, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2 - i1 Display Pro OEM B-02, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG
Anger.miki is online now  
post #995 of 1018 Old 10-15-2018, 11:50 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 21,043
Mentioned: 405 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11430 Post(s)
Liked: 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
If you gonna calibrate a 11 point grayscale only TV then 2nd edition is OK but it doesn’t have the patch order that CalMAN requires. But if I’m not wrong, you wanna calibrate a 4K Display, so you need a disc with more than 11 point GS and correct patch order. Ted’s disc is IMO the best solution out there. You can try the free version if you want and then, if you like it, you can buy the full version which is awesome. You can read about it here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...1454804?page=1
You may be right, but it is not clear whether the OP is a DIY calibrator, or whether he just wants some simple patterns to dial in the typical settings that are important to the end user. Also keep in mind that performing a calibration requires a colorimeter. While a colorimeter for SDR calibrations can be reasonably-priced, a colorimeter that does HDR calibrations can be pretty pricey.

I still think the S&M ver 2 disk is a good purchase for anyone wanting to get the best out of their display, and at ~$30, it is not a major investment.
AustinJerry is offline  
post #996 of 1018 Old 10-15-2018, 03:36 PM
Member
 
filmguy123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I don't THINK I have the proper hardware, so I just want a disc to help get the most out of the display setting wise.

However, I do have an Xrite Color Checker - the $250 i1 Display Pro - the small/basic one designed for USB and Monitor Displays (to dial in color grading correctly for my video production work). I don't have the budget for a big one. Specfically, the model I have is this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I think it says it will work with an HDTV, but don't you need some spendy software or something?

If I can use this hardware to calibrate my TV without too much extra investment, please let me know?

Otherwise, it sounds like the S&M V2 is much better than V1, and is still the way to go for a calibration disc sans hardware - even though it lacks HDR. I'm not sure how CalMAN improves on that (sounds like it requires expensive hardware I don't have?)

Vizio PX75 75" 2019 Quantum X | 5.1.2 Klipsch RP280FA, 504c, 500SA as surround | Denon x4500H w/Aircom T8| BDI Avion Triple Wide | PS4 Pro, ATV 4K, LG UHD Player
filmguy123 is offline  
post #997 of 1018 Old 10-15-2018, 04:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Lesmor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,119
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 765 Post(s)
Liked: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmguy123 View Post
I don't THINK I have the proper hardware, so I just want a disc to help get the most out of the display setting wise.

However, I do have an Xrite Color Checker - the $250 i1 Display Pro - the small/basic one designed for USB and Monitor Displays (to dial in color grading correctly for my video production work). I don't have the budget for a big one. Specfically, the model I have is this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I think it says it will work with an HDTV, but don't you need some spendy software or something?

If I can use this hardware to calibrate my TV without too much extra investment, please let me know?

Otherwise, it sounds like the S&M V2 is much better than V1, and is still the way to go for a calibration disc sans hardware - even though it lacks HDR. I'm not sure how CalMAN improves on that (sounds like it requires expensive hardware I don't have?)
I have just recently started to learn about display calibration
Your meter is the same as mine and will be fine but forget about the colouchecker for Tv's

you could try the free HCFR software see post one
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post21638248

Calman will cost you for a licence but you can download the software for free and use it in demo mode to get a feel for the software and different workflows
I bought Calman Enthusiast
if you have a Amazon firestick you can download mobileforge patterns that work with Calman for free

but as there was a question mark on the accuracy of mobileforge patterns I also bought these
https://displaycalibrations.com/disk_features.html
it also includes alternative workflows for Calman

Chromapure is another pay for software

do some research on these the choice is yours
Lesmor is offline  
post #998 of 1018 Old 10-15-2018, 04:12 PM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 21,043
Mentioned: 405 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11430 Post(s)
Liked: 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by filmguy123 View Post
I don't THINK I have the proper hardware, so I just want a disc to help get the most out of the display setting wise.

However, I do have an Xrite Color Checker - the $250 i1 Display Pro - the small/basic one designed for USB and Monitor Displays (to dial in color grading correctly for my video production work). I don't have the budget for a big one. Specfically, the model I have is this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I think it says it will work with an HDTV, but don't you need some spendy software or something?

If I can use this hardware to calibrate my TV without too much extra investment, please let me know?

Otherwise, it sounds like the S&M V2 is much better than V1, and is still the way to go for a calibration disc sans hardware - even though it lacks HDR. I'm not sure how CalMAN improves on that (sounds like it requires expensive hardware I don't have?)
If you want to pursue learning how to do a DIY calibration, there is a whole section here on AVS where you can read up on beginner’s instructions and get help from the experts. This is probably not the right thread to discuss.
Lesmor likes this.
AustinJerry is offline  
post #999 of 1018 Old 10-15-2018, 04:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Rolls-Royce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Victorville, CA
Posts: 4,239
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1185 Post(s)
Liked: 1268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post

...but as there was a question mark on the accuracy of mobileforge patterns I also bought these
https://displaycalibrations.com/disk_features.html
it also includes alternative workflows for Calman....
That disc is the Ted's disc that @Anger.miki mentioned. It's for SDR.

There is an HDR10 pattern disc available now. Ryan Masciola on this forum has produced HDR10 and HDR-HLG patterns. The HDR10 patterns at least are available as either a UHD disc or as a pattern set that can be placed on a thumb drive. He offers excellent support and has created pattern sets for HDR grayscale measurement and calibration on specific displays (LG, Samsung) as information on their needed levels became available. I highly recommend his work.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...-patterns.html
mascior likes this.

...Royce...

"I never drink...wine."
Bela Lugosi, DRACULA, 1931
Rolls-Royce is online now  
post #1000 of 1018 Old 10-16-2018, 04:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Lesmor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,119
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 765 Post(s)
Liked: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
That disc is the Ted's disc that @Anger.miki mentioned. It's for SDR.

There is an HDR10 pattern disc available now. Ryan Masciola on this forum has produced HDR10 and HDR-HLG patterns. The HDR10 patterns at least are available as either a UHD disc or as a pattern set that can be placed on a thumb drive. He offers excellent support and has created pattern sets for HDR grayscale measurement and calibration on specific displays (LG, Samsung) as information on their needed levels became available. I highly recommend his work.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...-patterns.html
Absolutely
as the OP seemed more concerned if his meter was suitable and mentioned software and he didn't mention HDR so neither did I, I also felt my post was getting bloated as it was

Being a beginner, and finding calibrating SDR a bit overwhelming as it is, I haven't ventured into HDR but you are correct if the OP wanted to do HDR the Masciola disc seems the best/only source for HDR patterns

Perhaps @AustinJerry would be kind enough to provide a link for an appropriate thread as there are quite a few, some probably better than others

Last edited by Lesmor; 10-16-2018 at 04:32 AM.
Lesmor is offline  
post #1001 of 1018 Old 10-16-2018, 05:30 AM
Advanced Member
 
Anger.miki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked: 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You may be right, but it is not clear whether the OP is a DIY calibrator, or whether he just wants some simple patterns to dial in the typical settings that are important to the end user. Also keep in mind that performing a calibration requires a colorimeter. While a colorimeter for SDR calibrations can be reasonably-priced, a colorimeter that does HDR calibrations can be pretty pricey.

I still think the S&M ver 2 disk is a good purchase for anyone wanting to get the best out of their display, and at ~$30, it is not a major investment.
S&M 1-2 are good for post-calibration visual verification. But both are useless for calibration. Ted’s disc not only is excellent for SDR calibration but also for pre and post verification. A lot of pros use it even if they are armed with super expensive pattern generator and for Blu-ray digital download it costs half of what you said S&M costs. Plus you would have Ted (which is IMO one of the best, if not the best, calibrator) helping you out whenever you need.
Trust me, I tried’em all and Ted’s one is the best choice.
Anger.miki is online now  
post #1002 of 1018 Old 10-16-2018, 07:47 AM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 21,043
Mentioned: 405 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11430 Post(s)
Liked: 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
S&M 1-2 are good for post-calibration visual verification. But both are useless for calibration.
While I have not used Ted’s disk, I don’t dispute its usefulness.

When you say S&M is “useless”, that is not the case. I use CalMAN with the X-Rite i1Display Pro. To calibrate, I need to provide CalMAN with the appropriate patterns. I don’t have a dedicated pattern generator, so I have found the patterns on the S&M disk to be completely appropriate, although pattern selection is manual. I have also used the AVS709 disk for patterns, as well as SpectraCal’s Mobile Forge. And, as previously mentioned, S&M has a number if very useful post-calibration assessment test patterns not found in typical calibration software.

So while I agree that a serious DIY calibrator needs additional tools other than a test disk, the S&M disk is also a useful tool to have in one’s kit. It is far from useless, and a good value.
AustinJerry is offline  
post #1003 of 1018 Old 10-16-2018, 08:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
Anger.miki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 686
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked: 434
Jerry, S&M 2 is a great tool created by great people. I didn't intend to offend them or who use the product of their intellect as I am one of those users. Once again, they are really useful for visual verification. But, as we are talking about calibrating a TV of the latest conception, S&M 2 are impossible to use (that was what I meant for "useless") for that purpose because new TVs got 21p grayscale to say the least.

So I'm not saying that we gotta throw out of the window our beloved S&M discs but we can't use them anymore for calibration... and it's not only related to serious DIY calibrators.

I hope I made things clearer.

TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | SintoAmp: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP, Portrait Displays CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018 R3, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2 - i1 Display Pro OEM B-02, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG
Anger.miki is online now  
post #1004 of 1018 Old 10-16-2018, 01:06 PM
** Man of Leisure **
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 21,043
Mentioned: 405 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11430 Post(s)
Liked: 6767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post

I hope I made things clearer.
Yes, you have made yourself clear. But this is the Spears&Munsil discussion thread, not a calibration thread. So that is why I took exception to your calling the S&M disk useless, which it is not. I suggested that the OP check out the many calibration discussion threads if he is serious about learning how to do a DIY calibration.
AustinJerry is offline  
post #1005 of 1018 Old 10-15-2019, 05:58 AM
Member
 
groggrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Has anyone used the Spears & Munsil 2nd edition to calibrate one of the newer Epson projectors and can give some pointers? I have a 5050UB and bought the disc. Haven't tried it yet but am a complete amateur and studying up. Using an Xbox One X since that's my only blu-ray player. Will that suffice? Also, since the disc isn't specifically for the Epson projectors, are there settings I should be careful of that are mentioned in the online instructions that don't apply for the Epson's? Thanks in advance for any advice.
groggrog is offline  
post #1006 of 1018 Old 10-28-2019, 07:10 PM
WTS
AVS Forum Special Member
 
WTS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,955
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Anger, When you say their discs are useless do you mean the gray scales or the colour windows aren't accurate enough. I recall reading some tests you did on pattern generators and you mentioned a number of them as well test discs like the AVSHD files as being inaccurate and should not be used.

Walter
WTS is online now  
post #1007 of 1018 Old 10-28-2019, 07:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,351
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post
Anger, When you say their discs are useless do you mean the gray scales or the colour windows aren't accurate enough. I recall reading some tests you did on pattern generators and you mentioned a number of them as well test discs like the AVSHD files as being inaccurate and should not be used.
I assume he means that if you want to calibrate a 1D or 3D LUT, you need a lot of different window patterns. Ted's disc, for example, has a lot more window patterns than we do, which is why he likes it. When it comes to 1D and 3D LUTs, I use a pattern generator myself. No window pattern limits. In Anger's example, he mentioned a 21-point grayscale calibration in a display. We only offer 11 steps vs 21 on the 2nd edition. UHD version has 21 and the add-on will have more.

Our disc has to cover a lot of markets. Calibration is one piece. Which is the best deinterlacing mode in my system? What is doing a better job scaling, my player, processor or display? Is the video coming out of my player correct? These are some of the aspects our disc addresses that no one else does.

Everyone has their favorite tools. I see calibration / test discs a lot like demo discs. If you are the type of person that likes to collect the DTS and Dolby BDs every year, then I assume you buy all of the test and calibration discs as well.

Ted, Ryan, JKP, AVIA and others all come at calibration with a slightly different approach. Between all of us, you should cover all the bases. There are lots of discs for video, but none for audio. There were some nice audio test DVDs, but so far pretty lacking on BD. Someone should really step into that market, you would own it! It is not going to be us, we just don't have the domain expertise in audio.
Dominic Chan likes this.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #1008 of 1018 Old 10-29-2019, 10:03 AM
WTS
AVS Forum Special Member
 
WTS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,955
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Hi Stacy,

Thanks for your reply. I have your initial S&M disc from 2008 as well as most of all the others that were put out there around the same time, including the AVSHD one which Anger mentions is garbage. So now I'm left wondering which one to use and I'm thinking I'll have to spring for Ted's disc. As for 21 point cals I won't need that unless I get one of the Sony Master series flat panels, otherwise 10(11) is fine.

Of course then Anger has to bring up the other points(ha-ha, which are very useful and informative) of what sources (media players etc) actually provide a proper true/pure signal to your display and what files/discs should be used when calibrating them to your display. It's hard to follow him as his first language isn't English but I get the gest of what he's trying to say. I'll have to reread several times to digest it, but it's great to have guys like him willing to dig in deep and inform people of these oversights/problems which these manufacturers haven't been telling all along.

Walter
WTS is online now  
post #1009 of 1018 Old 10-29-2019, 10:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,351
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post
Hi Stacy,

Thanks for your reply. I have your initial S&M disc from 2008 as well as most of all the others that were put out there around the same time, including the AVSHD one which Anger mentions is garbage. So now I'm left wondering which one to use and I'm thinking I'll have to spring for Ted's disc. As for 21 point cals I won't need that unless I get one of the Sony Master series flat panels, otherwise 10(11) is fine.

Of course then Anger has to bring up the other points(ha-ha, which are very useful and informative) of what sources (media players etc) actually provide a proper true/pure signal to your display and what files/discs should be used when calibrating them to your display. It's hard to follow him as his first language isn't English but I get the gest of what he's trying to say. I'll have to reread several times to digest it, but it's great to have guys like him willing to dig in deep and inform people of these oversights/problems which these manufacturers haven't been telling all along.
Our window patterns are more accurate than virtually every HW pattern generator because of our patented dither that allows us to hit the correct percent. e.g. Most 50% patterns use code value 126 in 8-bit. The correct value is 125.5, which we can achieve by using dither. In 10-bit, this is even worse because some take the incorrect 8-bit value of 126 * 4, which results in 504. The correct value in 10-bit is actually 502. (940-64 = 876. 876 / 2 + 64 = 502) In 8-bit this is 235-16 = 219. 219 / 2 + 16 = 125.5. Sorry for the math, just wanted to point out subtle differences and the type of detail that we pay attention to.

The OPPO and Panasonic both output bit exact YCbCr patches, which can be measured using an Accupel 6000 and our monotonicity patterns. What matters most is matching the color space from your source to the display. So if you are using a HW pattern generator, you want to make sure it is outputting the same color space as your primary source to ensure it goes through the same image pipeline. This can be tricky with USB patterns as they go through a different HEVC decoder and a different chroma upsampling algorithm in the display.

The more important question is which software you are using. Make sure the disc supports the patches the software wants. Some used fixed pattern sets and some use dynamic.

There is another issue and that is some displays multi-point grayscale don't align with standard spacing. We do not deal with this case. We build patterns to standards and we don't work around non-standard layouts. Again, this is where a HW pattern gen driven by software can deal with those cases. Some discs have created custom patch sets to deal with this. e..g Ryan has some patch sets for older LGs that had some odd spacing. We are not going to to do that.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #1010 of 1018 Old 10-29-2019, 10:57 AM
WTS
AVS Forum Special Member
 
WTS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,955
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Hi Stacy,

Okay, question, your original 2008 disc and the Oppo BDP83, which I have both, does that make for a pure source for calibrating a Sony flat panel(I'm a Sony guy)? According to Sony(on it's new flat panels) you only have to calibrate the SDR as the HDR settings are computed from the SDR settings.

For sources it seems like the real problem is what media player to use that will enable you to calibrate it properly to your display and what files to use for that purpose. Like you mentioned, using the USB port can be tricky and may not get you a pure source. Makes me wonder if these engineers for these media player companies even thought about the calibration aspect of their products. 10/15 years ago it didn't much matter but todays equipment is a far different story.

Don't worry about the math, my background is EE, just not in the video/broadcast field.

Walter
WTS is online now  
post #1011 of 1018 Old 10-29-2019, 11:10 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,351
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post
Hi Stacy,

Okay, question, your original 2008 disc and the Oppo BDP83, which I have both, does that make for a pure source for calibrating a Sony flat panel(I'm a Sony guy)? According to Sony(on it's new flat panels) you only have to calibrate the SDR as the HDR settings are computed from the SDR settings.

For sources it seems like the real problem is what media player to use that will enable you to calibrate it properly to your display and what files to use for that purpose. Like you mentioned, using the USB port can be tricky and may not get you a pure source. Makes me wonder if these engineers for these media player companies even thought about the calibration aspect of their products. 10/15 years ago it didn't much matter but todays equipment is a far different story.

Don't worry about the math, my background is EE, just not in the video/broadcast field.
HDR cal is based on SDR, but you may still need to tune HDR after. I have to on my Z9D. Contrast is too high be default in HDR for Dolby Vision on the Z9D if you like to keep your highlights. Some have been creating one memory for 1000 nit content and another for 4000 nit content to maximize both.

The first edition is an HD disc, not a UHD disc. It also does not contain any window patterns at all.

No idea on media players, sorry. I am not currently using any other than an XBOX ONE, which has the wrong chroma alignment for HDR content. The OPPO has wrong chroma alignment for HDR content too. (UDP-203) The BDP-83 chroma alignment for HD is correct. Chroma alignmet aside, code values in YCbCr are correct from the OPPOs. XBOX converts to RGB internally, so its YCbCr output is not pure and has rounding errors.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #1012 of 1018 Old 10-29-2019, 11:22 AM
WTS
AVS Forum Special Member
 
WTS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,955
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Well shows you how much or how often I've used your 2008 disc as I don't even remember what's on it, yes I knew it's only HD content. So is your newest disc a complete calibration disc for both SDR and HDR? What's the cost of it and where can it be purchased.

Honestly I'm not too worried about HDR, I just don't see it coming at us in great leaps and bounds, at least not here in Canada, for the foreseeable future.

What no media player, you need to get with the times, ha-ha. Thanks for the info on the BDP83 player.

Walter
WTS is online now  
post #1013 of 1018 Old 10-29-2019, 01:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,351
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post
Well shows you how much or how often I've used your 2008 disc as I don't even remember what's on it, yes I knew it's only HD content. So is your newest disc a complete calibration disc for both SDR and HDR? What's the cost of it and where can it be purchased.

Honestly I'm not too worried about HDR, I just don't see it coming at us in great leaps and bounds, at least not here in Canada, for the foreseeable future.

What no media player, you need to get with the times, ha-ha. Thanks for the info on the BDP83 player.
The primary focus of the new disc is HDR. It has a small subset of SDR patterns. The update/add-on we are planning for next year will have everything in HDR and SDR.

Here is the thread discussing the HDR disc.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark
sspears is offline  
post #1014 of 1018 Old 10-29-2019, 01:49 PM
WTS
AVS Forum Special Member
 
WTS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,955
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Hi Stacy,

Great, in that case I'll wait as I'm not in need of this just yet anyway. I'll also check out the thread you linked to. TKS

Walter
WTS is online now  
post #1015 of 1018 Old 10-30-2019, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 214 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3428 Post(s)
Liked: 4248
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
Our window patterns are more accurate than virtually every HW pattern generator because of our patented dither that allows us to hit the correct percent. e.g. Most 50% patterns use code value 126 in 8-bit. The correct value is 125.5, which we can achieve by using dither. In 10-bit, this is even worse because some take the incorrect 8-bit value of 126 * 4, which results in 504. The correct value in 10-bit is actually 502. (940-64 = 876. 876 / 2 + 64 = 502) In 8-bit this is 235-16 = 219. 219 / 2 + 16 = 125.5. Sorry for the math, just wanted to point out subtle differences and the type of detail that we pay attention to.
Hi Stacey, as this thread talk for S&M2, the patterns are 8bit, but as you used more sophisticated method to create them (using still frames helps also), even Murideo is recommending to use your patterns instead of using Murideo's gradation patterns.

If you measure in SDR a 10-bit pattern with digital code 502 vs. 504, the meter repeatability and panel instability will not able to get you any difference. (the calibration software will do the target calculation in 126, so in 504 10-bit, not for 506 which is the correct 10-bit)

The point is that any calibration software we know (LightSpace/HCFR/CalMAN/ChromaPure) do all the color engine calculations based to 8-bit RGB triplets, so there currently no benefit when you will use the most accurate 10-bit patterns, as it will deviate more from the 8bit triplets the software will expect from you to display.

The advantage of having perfect 10-bit patterns will be useful to all the other areas (ramps/gradation for example) but not to solid patch colors for measurements area, it will have benefit when calibration software will be able to generate/calculate true 10-bit values, useful for HDR calibrations. But in HDR mode the panels are so unstable with poor repeatability, so it will not be any real advantage in measurements.

All calibration enthusiast users need to have at least S&M2 + S&M3 disk to their collection for sure. (before its sold out)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
There is another issue and that is some displays multi-point grayscale don't align with standard spacing. We do not deal with this case. We build patterns to standards and we don't work around non-standard layouts. Again, this is where a HW pattern gen driven by software can deal with those cases. Some discs have created custom patch sets to deal with this. e..g Ryan has some patch sets for older LGs that had some odd spacing. We are not going to to do that.
This is happening because LG calibration controls are adjusting values in gamma (SDR) space and then its added PQ math, so the 20-Point controls in HDR manual cal, are dynamically adjusted based to the user adjustments, for that reason its impossible to create a specific patch set for that display which will work for all users while its so easy banding to introduced when you will try large adjustments or weird compo of adjustments.

Ryan's HDR patchsets can help but not resolve completely the problem.

The problem will be resolved when LGE, as the OLED natively has linear 0-1 response, but the TCON module is programmed to make them 2.2 gamma based....If LG will change that and provide additional data for the panel to have a PQ response also, then there will be no problem with alignment of the HDR patterns then. (as the controls will be based to PQ values)

As this will require a lot of changes completely to the panel calibration and factory manufacturing process changes, it will need changes of the whole engine/video processing of main board etc... its not so easy for this to happen, as only OLED are linear, the LCD's are not.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
post #1016 of 1018 Old 10-30-2019, 06:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,351
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
If you measure in SDR a 10-bit pattern with digital code 502 vs. 504, the meter repeatability and panel instability will not able to get you any difference. (the calibration software will do the target calculation in 126, so in 504 10-bit, not for 506 which is the correct 10-bit)
The difference between 502 and 504 in HDR is 2.13 cd/m² and that can be measured with repeatable results. When I mentioned 10-bit, I was thinking of HDR.

Not sure what you mean with 506 is the correct 10-bit. Correct for what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
for that reason its impossible to create a specific patch set for that display which will work for all users
I agree with that.

Stacey Spears
Co-Creator, Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark

Last edited by sspears; 10-30-2019 at 06:46 AM.
sspears is offline  
post #1017 of 1018 Old 10-30-2019, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 214 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3428 Post(s)
Liked: 4248
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
The difference between 502 and 504 in HDR is 2.13 cd/m² and that can be measured with repeatable results. When I mentioned 10-bit, I was thinking of HDR.

Not sure what you mean with 506 is the correct 10-bit. Correct for what?
I was talking for SDR with 10-bit values example.

506 is typing error from my end. (502 vs. 504 in SDR I wanted to compare)

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
post #1018 of 1018 Old 10-30-2019, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 214 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3428 Post(s)
Liked: 4248
Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post
The difference between 502 and 504 in HDR is 2.13 cd/m² and that can be measured with repeatable results. When I mentioned 10-bit, I was thinking of HDR.
As CalMAN for example with calculate the Y target based to 126->504, if you have currently bit-perfect 10-bit pattern, your pattern will be off 2.13 nits.

When CalMAN will change the global engine calculation to real 10-bit, then your pattern will be more correct from external generators where they are not true 10-bit generations.

As a design, you did the correct level patch creation, just I'm describing that all software still use only 8-bit values for RGB triplet calculation, not real 10 or 12 bit ones.

If you enable logging in CalMAN you will see the exact command CalMAN is sending to pattern generators, it will be 10 bit value from (8-bit x 4 calculation, not real 10-bit)

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration

Tags
Spears Munsil , Spears Munsil High Definition Benchmark Blu Ray Disc Edition Blu Ray , Spears Munsil Hd Benchmark And Calibration Disc 2nd Edition

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off