LightSpace 3D LUT Home Cinema Calibration Software - Page 55 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1621 of 2391 Old 03-19-2018, 11:02 AM
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There some new info added to the calibration error page of LightIllusion: https://www.lightillusion.com/error.html

The section on ''Gamut Coverage''should be especially interesting for those trying to understand ''volumetric'' calibration.

If calibrating with a 1D LUT and 3x3 matrix you would be limited to the gamut defined by the Peak Chroma values...

This is a very good example of where a 3D LUT is preferable for calibration, as it will maximize the full volumetric gamut of the display.
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post #1622 of 2391 Old 03-22-2018, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
LightSpace CMS 9.0.0.2783 (13 March 2018), an incremental version, has been released.

Added initial concept of ‘Sub Colour Space’ for Quick Profile verification.
Not checked the new version yet, but do you have some more words about that feature?

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post #1623 of 2391 Old 03-22-2018, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post
Not checked the new version yet, but do you have some more words about that feature?
Sure

This function can be used when you want to measure for example DCI-P3 Colorspace inside a REC.2020 container.

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post #1624 of 2391 Old 03-23-2018, 05:18 AM
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Understand, good to know. Thank's for the information, TED.
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post #1625 of 2391 Old 03-25-2018, 11:04 AM
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I am finding it difficult to understand the explanation of the Clip graph in LS, as given on the Profiling Manual guide. To quote from the guide:

"What the graph shows is the 'rate of change' for each grey scale point,which in turn means showing when the tangent of a point has deviated from the expected value. So, for example, a near flat line graph, as with the first graph below, shows an accurate rate of change for the measured gamma compared to the target gamma, although that doesn't mean the actual gamma is accurate, hence the need to use this graph in conjunction with the Gamma graphs."

Does the Clip graph show the change in d/dx(differential/slope) of measured and expected gamma? Or the rate of change of luminance of measured point and expected point? Or something else?
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post #1626 of 2391 Old 03-25-2018, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omarank View Post
I am finding it difficult to understand the explanation of the Clip graph in LS, as given on the Profiling Manual guide. To quote from the guide:

"What the graph shows is the 'rate of change' for each grey scale point,which in turn means showing when the tangent of a point has deviated from the expected value. So, for example, a near flat line graph, as with the first graph below, shows an accurate rate of change for the measured gamma compared to the target gamma, although that doesn't mean the actual gamma is accurate, hence the need to use this graph in conjunction with the Gamma graphs."

Does the Clip graph show the change in d/dx(differential/slope) of measured and expected gamma? Or the rate of change of luminance of measured point and expected point? Or something else?
Hi,

It's the rate of change of luminance vs. the expected rate compared to the expected gamma.

You can see that, as the graph will change with different color space targets, with different gammas.

Create different colorspaces based to REC.709 (which as 2.4 gamma) with different gamma values (like 2.2 / 2.25 / 2.3 / 2.35) and swap between them when you will view that graph.

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post #1627 of 2391 Old 03-26-2018, 12:01 AM
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Hi Ted, when we say expected gamma at an input point, is it the measured gamma of the previous input point or the target gamma as per the selected target colorspace?

Can you help me in filling this table with Clip Graph Values at each input point for a better mathematical understanding?

Input, Gamma
0%, 2.4
5%, 2.275
10%, 2.37
15%, 2.425
20%, 2.42
25%, 2.36
30%, 2.25
35%, 2.4
40%, 2.3
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post #1628 of 2391 Old 03-26-2018, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
[COLOR=#0F243E ]The gamma target is the fixed value you select as the Colour Space Target, to it's the black line.
[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#0F243E ]That defines the expected luma for each point, based on the black/white measurements of the display.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#0F243E ]The Clip graph shows when the rate of change of any point is inaccurate compared to the expected change.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#0F243E ]Also it brakes the luminance per color channel so its not easy to tell you what exact to expect, since it's related with per colorchannel (RGB) gamma also.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#0F243E ]Its not related with RGB balance / gray color temp, its the Clip per RGB channel.[/COLOR][COLOR=#0F243E ]
[/COLOR]
I can’t see your posts using the AVS Dark Forum color scheme without quoting your posts. Are you intentionally using the #0F243E color scheme?
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post #1629 of 2391 Old 03-26-2018, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omarank View Post
Hi Ted, when we say expected gamma at an input point, is it the measured gamma of the previous input point or the target gamma as per the selected target colorspace?

Can you help me in filling this table with Clip Graph Values at each input point for a better mathematical understanding?

Input, Gamma
0%, 2.4
5%, 2.275
10%, 2.37
15%, 2.425
20%, 2.42
25%, 2.36
30%, 2.25
35%, 2.4
40%, 2.3

The gamma target is the fixed value you select as the Colour Space Target, to it's the black line.

That defines the expected luma for each point, based on the black/white measurements of the display.

The Clip graph shows when the rate of change of any point is inaccurate compared to the expected change.

Also it brakes the luminance per color channel so its not easy to tell you what exact to expect, since it's related with per colorchannel (RGB) lumma also.

Its not related with RGB balance / gray color temp, its the luma Clip per RGB channel.

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post #1630 of 2391 Old 03-26-2018, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I can’t see your posts using the AVS Dark Forum color scheme without quoting your posts. Are you intentionally using the #0F243E color scheme?
Hey D-Nice,

I have re-posted, is it visible now?

Thanks.

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post #1631 of 2391 Old 03-26-2018, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
The gamma target is the fixed value you select as the Colour Space Target, to it's the black line.

That defines the expected luma for each point, based on the black/white measurements of the display.

The Clip graph shows when the rate of change of any point is inaccurate compared to the expected change.

Also it brakes the luminance per color channel so its not easy to tell you what exact to expect, since it's related with per colorchannel (RGB) gamma also.

Its not related with RGB balance / gray color temp, its the Clip per RGB channel.
Yes, that explains it well. Thanks, Ted!
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post #1632 of 2391 Old 03-26-2018, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omarank View Post
Yes, that explains it well. Thanks, Ted!
BTW, the measured gamma has no involvement, Its just the measured luma that is involved.

The target gamma is just used to define what the measured luma should be.

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Tedd,

what is the chance that Lightspace will eventually be able to support 3D LUT calibration of 2018 LG WOLED TVs?

Does LG need to provide special access in order to read and write the internal 3D LUTs?

Has anyone at Lightspace reached out to LG to see whether that access would be possible?
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post #1634 of 2391 Old 03-26-2018, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Tedd,

what is the chance that Lightspace will eventually be able to support 3D LUT calibration of 2018 LG WOLED TVs?

Does LG need to provide special access in order to read and write the internal 3D LUTs?

Has anyone at Lightspace reached out to LG to see whether that access would be possible?
Yes, LG would need to provide necessary information to Light Illusion to enable direct access to the 3D LUTs within the display, as LightSpace already has for many displays, such as the Dolby professional monitors (as used for Dolby Vision HDR grading), Canon professional monitors, FSI (Flanders Scientific Inc.) displays, Eizo, NEC, Konvision, BON, Craltech, Kroma, TVlogic, etc... (See: https://www.lightillusion.com/partners.html).

Light Illusion have spoken to LG, but so far the required information has not been provided.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Yes, LG would need to provide necessary information to Light Illusion to enable direct access to the 3D LUTs within the display, as LightSpace already has for many displays, such as the Dolby professional monitors (as used for Dolby Vision HDR grading), Canon professional monitors, FSI (Flanders Scientific Inc.) displays, Eizo, NEC, Konvision, BON, Craltech, Kroma, TVlogic, etc... (See: https://www.lightillusion.com/partners.html).

Light Illusion have spoken to LG, but so far the required information has not been provided.
Great, thanks. 'not been provided' meaning no response or meaning LG has said 'no'?
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post #1636 of 2391 Old 03-27-2018, 09:21 AM
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I've not seen this stated specifically even after searching the thread for it. In the Options (from Calibration Interface) > Calibration Settings, from the drop down list, what is the optimum selection for profiling the LG OLEDs, with an Rev.B i1D3 meter?
I currently use General CMF as I understand 'OLED' isn't for consumer level WRGB OLED displays...

Paul
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post #1637 of 2391 Old 03-28-2018, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngsyp View Post
I've not seen this stated specifically even after searching the thread for it. In the Options (from Calibration Interface) > Calibration Settings, from the drop down list, what is the optimum selection for profiling the LG OLEDs, with an Rev.B i1D3 meter?
I currently use General CMF as I understand 'OLED' isn't for consumer level WRGB OLED displays...

Paul
Hi Paul,

X-Rite used a Sony PVM-2541 RGB OLED Monitor to create the OLED spectral correction for i1Display PRO which can be useful when you will measure the Sony or FSI (Flanders Scientific Inc.) RGB OLED Broadcasting Monitors and not a consumer LG WRGB OLED or the following brands which are using LG's WRGB OLED panel also: Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Loewe, Philips, Skyworth, Metz, Grundig, Vestel, Arçelik and Bang & Olufsen.

If you don't have a spectro to create your own meter correction table, then you can use the default 'Generic CMF' or as alternative is to use the ''Perceptual Calibration'' approach: https://www.lightillusion.com/percep...our_match.html

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post #1638 of 2391 Old 03-28-2018, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFaxe View Post
Not checked the new version yet, but do you have some more words about that feature?

Hi, there info to the LightSpace manual (which always are up-to-date) about this: https://www.lightillusion.com/profiling_manual.html

Colour Sub-Space

Colour Sub-Space allows the profiling of a display to a different (sub) colour space to the one it is calibrated to.

For example, if you have calibrated a display to P3 you can profile to Rec709, to see how accurate the display can show Rec709 colours.

The obvious use is if you have calibrated a HDR display to Rec2020 (as you should!), but want to see what P3 colours the display can show, knowing that all HDR/Rec2020 material is presently graded P3. (As the primary colour points of Rec2020 and P3 (green specifically) are different, a Rec2020 calibrated display may not be able to show all P3 colours,
even if the display has a wide gamut.)

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post #1639 of 2391 Old 03-28-2018, 03:07 AM
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LightSpace Beta with Patch Stabilisation Insertion feature.

To fight drifting, the LightSpace had 2 features which are working very good; Drift Compensation and Anisometric patch sequence which both of them helps to final 3D LUT correction generation for better final results.

Using Drift Compensation feature enabled with 30 value for example, LightSpace it takes a one White measurement per 30 patches and at the end it's including to the correction 3D LUT any display 'drifting over the time' issues, we have seen that OLED's/Plasma's are not stable displays during the required measuring time and this features helps a lot to the final 3D LUT generation.

Anisometric patch sequence is helping a lot also and it's better suited to displays that have any form of ABL, such as Plasmas and many OLEDs, where Sequential patch ordering can cause display overheating (overheating can actually be an issue on any display that has high peak luminance outputs, as it can cause the display to drift. Anisometric patch sequence is using an algorithm to display the patches with one dark/one bright patch order in simple words.

We have seen with Plasmas that luminance drop because when the panel or electronics increase their temperature (or PSU overload), the display has sensors to panel and electronics area to monitor these changes, so to protect the panel/electronics, it's reducing the output to protect and prevent any damage.

With OLED's there strange shiftings and weird luminance changes from thermal changes to the pixels of the pattern area so to help the panel cool down there is added a Patch Stabilisation Insertion feature.

The Stabilisation feature you can find it to the 'Options' menu.




The main idea is to add black frames displayed for x.xx sec. time between each other colorpatch (for example 200ms of black patch) but there capability to select any color (any RGB triplet) and decide exact the time you want for these patches to be displayed in milliseconds. After testing we will find out which patch insertion is better, a black frame or a dark gray one...or which timing provides better results etc.

These 'Stabilisation' patches are presently only with 'profiling'; but to the official release there will be available to 'Manual Measure', for LightSpace DPS (free license level) users to be able to use them also.

For a download link of this Beta. please send me msg here only: http://www.displaycalibrations.com/contact_us.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
These 'Stabilisation' patches are presently only with 'profiling'; but to the official release there will be available to 'Manual Measure', for LightSpace DPS (free license level) users to be able to use them also.

For a download link of this Beta. please send me msg here only: http://www.displaycalibrations.com/contact_us.html
There available newer beta which adds 'Stabilization' to Manual Measure, something which LightSpace DPS (free licence levels) users can use.

There added details about the Stabilisation to the LightSpace on-line manual also: https://www.lightillusion.com/profiling_manual.html
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If anyone is considering an upgrade to Lightspace, or new meters, the coming days would be a good time to keep an eye on the Lightspace forum - I see from their Facebook page they're running a discount event during the NAB show. The pricing isn't announced yet. I took advantage of a similar event last year during IBC to get a very healthy discount on a Discus meter and the Lightspace HTP upgrade and couldn't be happier . No connection other than being a happy customer.

https://www.lightillusion.com/forums...m=13&topic=486
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post #1642 of 2391 Old 04-04-2018, 04:04 AM
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Pricing has gone live for the NAB show now, big discounts on the SW licenses and some significant money off the whole range of meters. Luckily I'm spent out at the moment on the Radiance Pro, otherwise I'd be coveting one of them spiffy Klein units...!
https://www.lightillusion.com/forums...ic=486#msg2828
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post #1643 of 2391 Old 04-25-2018, 01:39 AM
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LightSpace CMS 9.0.0.2802 (24 April 2018) has been released.

As is usual for Light Illusion's continued development process for LightSpace CMS a raft of new developments have been released.

Release Notes

Added ‘Stabilisation’ option for displays with ABL/Heat type issues.

Continuation of Sub Colour Space developments.

Changed Accupel 5000 integration allow faster patch generation.

Fixed potential COMs issue with hardware TPGs after using the ‘Options’ menu.

Added integration for Minolta CA-410 probe.

Added pop-up window to see additional dE information without exporting pdf report.

Finalized BenQ 3D LUT integration.

Download Link

Note: All LightSpace related guides which are available online has been updated to reflect changes the latest released version of LightSpace introduced.

All new features and developments are provided free to existing customers, continuing Light Illusion's approach of no additional costs or yearly support fees for all its software systems.
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post #1644 of 2391 Old 05-02-2018, 12:20 AM
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Below you will find a direct comparison using an LG OLED C8 with LightSpace's Stabilisation ON/OFF.

Some in-house tools of LightIllusion used to generate all the following graphs:

C8 Stabilisation OFF



C8 Stabilisation ON



Each profile has been 'mapped' to itself, using the peak gamut, white point, and gamma values from each profile.

Profiling a display to itself (to its own native Gamut/Gamma) really does show the underlying quality of any display.

A 'good' display would generate a near perfect result.

To profile a display to itself, you need to create a new colorspace using the display's Primaries/White Point/Gamma and select that custom colorspace as ''Source'' (as target) when you will do the colorspace conversion.

You can take a Grayscale run (Calibration Interface -> Profile -> Grayscale only), then open the measurement file... looking the CIE chart... double click a cross to bring the Point Info Window...and note the xy of 100% R,G,B and 100% W, then generate a PDF report to see the average gamma...and using these number, create a new colorspace.

If you look at the normal CIE graphs above you can see the 'With Stabilisation' has a perceivable higher number of 'Orange' dE points, so in general terms the display when profiled with the black stabilise patches is better. But, there are still issues... (The Drift graph below backs this up.)





The 3D CIE graphs better show the difference, with the general level of error as shown with the dE vectors being visibly less in the 'Stabilised' graph.









The Cube graphs are normalised versions of the 3D CIE graphs, and assist in really seeing both the underlying issues, and the greater issues caused by the thermal instability of the display when Stabilisation is not used.

Note that the graphs without stabilisation show how the displays will respond in 'normal' use.

You can easily see the 'scallop' out of the cube on the left hand side on both with and without Stabilise graphs.

But on the 'no Stabilise' you can see a step change in the data along the bottom edge, and the more random alignment of the dE vectors, especially to the right of the step change.





(Drift plot range is +-3 nits to these graphs.)

The drift graphs verify the above, with the 'Stabilised' results showing the underlying instability of the display over time.

The graph without Stabilisation basically show how the displays will respond in 'normal' use.
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post #1645 of 2391 Old 05-02-2018, 01:24 AM
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Hi Ted,
that is already a great improvement to a Plasma/OLED 3D Lut calibration. I have two questions for you & Steve and one food for thought (personal reflection) for whoever produces calibration software or display/external Lut box:

Questions:
1) Do you think it is possible to improve it even further?
2) If the display responds like the no stabilized graph but we calibrate it with the stabilization feature, what would be the final image perceived by the observer?

Personal reflection:
Given that I am aware of the fact that you work to provide possible solutions with the technology possessed by individual screens, but again if it's true that in normal use the screen responds as described by the graph "not stabilized", it would not be better to adjust the calibration to the time/temperature rather than trying to normalize the behavior of the screen? Let me explain: the panel drifts according to the internal temperature or an over voltage of the transformer, then established the peak luminance supplied at a certain temperature/voltage and provided the information on the current temperature/voltage to the software that manages the 3D Lut, the latter could dynamically adjust the 3D Lut based, obviously, to the readings performed during calibration. A kind of tone mapping but well done!

TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | SintoAmp: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP, Portrait Displays CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018 R3, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2 - i1 Display Pro OEM B-02, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #1646 of 2391 Old 05-04-2018, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Hi Ted,
that is already a great improvement to a Plasma/OLED 3D Lut calibration. I have two questions for you & Steve and one food for thought (personal reflection) for whoever produces calibration software or display/external Lut box:

Questions:
1) Do you think it is possible to improve it even further?
2) If the display responds like the no stabilized graph but we calibrate it with the stabilization feature, what would be the final image perceived by the observer?

Personal reflection:
Given that I am aware of the fact that you work to provide possible solutions with the technology possessed by individual screens, but again if it's true that in normal use the screen responds as described by the graph "not stabilized", it would not be better to adjust the calibration to the time/temperature rather than trying to normalize the behavior of the screen? Let me explain: the panel drifts according to the internal temperature or an over voltage of the transformer, then established the peak luminance supplied at a certain temperature/voltage and provided the information on the current temperature/voltage to the software that manages the 3D Lut, the latter could dynamically adjust the 3D Lut based, obviously, to the readings performed during calibration. A kind of tone mapping but well done!
Hi,

1) That test performed with a xx ms Black Frame insertion, different timings can provide other results, it will be required more testing (from users with OLED's) to find out which is the 'magic' xx ms number of Black (or gray?) frame before each other patch read... which will provide more stable results from the panel during the 2-3 hours of measurements.

2) The point of all these features for displays with ABL, is to have stable panel response during the measurement time... because from that collected data the LightSpace engine will see the capabilities of the display and generate the global correction, when you have much drifting during the measurements (data collection), the correction 3D LUT will not so perfect later.

The drifting is less when you watch a movie because the panel don't have that parch window area load.

There no tone mapping in SDR, when the panel will get a very bright frame from scene with high APL, it will reduce completely the output, ABL is linear to the whole picture, it will not dim only the bright area of the screen, but the whole frame.

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post #1647 of 2391 Old 05-04-2018, 02:57 AM
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Your answer at 2) just brings me to another question: given that an i1D3 at a distance of 136 mm from the panel it reads a circle with a diameter of 25 mm, if I reduce the pattern from 11,11% (APL 0) to 1% would I reduce the drift of the panel substantially?

TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | SintoAmp: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP, Portrait Displays CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018 R3, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2 - i1 Display Pro OEM B-02, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
Your answer at 2) just brings me to another question: given that an i1D3 at a distance of 136 mm from the panel it reads a circle with a diameter of 25 mm, if I reduce the pattern from 11,11% (APL 0) to 1% would I reduce the drift of the panel substantially?
It will not help, its better to use pattern size which will not trigger display ABL and with similar load as commercial movies are using; which is 10-14% average APL if you scan entire movies.

I have chosen one window pattern size of 11.11% 640x360 pixels; same as Lumagen was using for years before adding (before some months) the capability of custom sizes, this size will not trigger ABL with OLED or Plasma.

That size I used is very close at the Accupel's 10.85% Pattern size that is the most classic pattern size that a lot of pro calibrators are using for all display technologies, to have one size for all displays.

The fact is that the Lumagen had 11.11% window patterns for many years (before custom size option become available) shows that they did some testing to various display to decide about that size.



For example in post-production industry where the Fuji IS-Mini processor is used, the Fiji's IS-Mini Manager; the software that is coming with Fiji-IS Mini 3D LUT Box for display profiling works also as a hardware pattern generator and If you see at it's Settings window, the default window pattern size is 640x360 pixels... which is the exact pixel size like my disk's window patterns.....like the Lumagen Radiance Window Patterns 11,11% are using also.

This shows that the Professional Industry where Fuji IS-Mini is designed to be used, the default window size is 11,11% for color patches.

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post #1649 of 2391 Old 05-04-2018, 04:42 AM
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Why 1% window pattern size kick the ABL in? Higher peak luminance?

TVs: Pioneer PDP-LX5090H, LG OLED55C8PLA | SintoAmp: Pioneer VSX-921 | BD Player: Panasonic DMP-BDT260EG | External LUT box: Entertainment Experience eeColor | Softwares: Light Illusion Lightspace HTP, Portrait Displays CalMAN Home Enthusiast 2018 R3, HCFR, DisplayCAL | Probes: x-rite i1 Pro 2 - i1 Display Pro OEM B-02, basICColor DISCUS | Test Pattern Generator: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #1650 of 2391 Old 05-04-2018, 04:45 AM
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Why 1% window pattern size kick the ABL in? Higher peak luminance?
1% Window will not enable any form of ABL, but you are not emulate any real movie content playback with that small pattern size, since your TV with SDR will have 10-14% average APL load with real content.

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