LightSpace 3D LUT Home Cinema Calibration Software - Page 68 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2011 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
We have implemented the LUT format based on the data we have been provided.
If there is data that shows/defines the LUT as being 256 steps we have not been provided it.

We have requested assistance from JVC (multiple times) and have received nothing in return.

Steve
The data you have been provided is incorrect. If you need assistance about the JVCs, you know you can contact me

As explained above, the file format you've used is low res. You need to control the JVC directly through IP, like the JVC Autocal does or Arve's tool does, to access the full 256 native resolution of the gamma custom curves.

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post #2012 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 05:11 AM
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If JVC will not provide API/SDK data there is nothing more we can do...

Steve

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post #2013 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
If JVC will not provide API/SDK data there is nothing more we can do...

Steve
You mean that you have less resources or knowledge at Light Illusion than a single developer sharing generously his work for free with the community?

AFAIK @arve had no API/SDK from JVC yet he has developed a very useful tool to upload full res custom curves to the JVC about two years ago. His 1D LUTs use the full 256 steps available and do not cause any distortion when the tool uploads the data to the JVC through IP directly, but if you export/import them using the export/import feature of the JVC Autocal software, you lose this high resolution and get the basic lo-res curves.

Arve's code in Python is open source, so you can look at it here in case it helps you to see how he's achieved it, though if this is useful courtesy would suggest you get in touch with him, as he would deserve at least a credit and a thanks.

Note that the header might need to be updated to support the latest models, but it's fairly easy to do. I haven't tried it yet with the new native 4K models.

By the way I truly appreciate that you tried to implement this for JVC users and I would be genuinely happy to help.

I have no agenda here and I'm always happy to put the past behind.

Again, if you'd like to discuss this further or need me to do some beta testing, feel free to get in touch, you know how to reach me.

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post #2014 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 05:33 AM
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We will only work with an official API/SDK from JVC.
We're not going to use someone else's work.

Steve

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post #2015 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
We will only work with an official API/SDK from JVC.
We're not going to use someone else's work.

Steve
I didn't suggest you use his work, I don't think you develop in Python anyway.

I only suggested you look at the way he's done it in Python to see how you could do it yourself, and credit/thank him if it allows you to do so. It's fairly straightforward to see the protocol used even if you don't program in Python (I don't).

By the way, before rubbishing anything JVC related in the future, it would be nice if you could check your facts first. I don't know who is advising you in that matter, but they are not competent.

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post #2016 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 05:46 AM
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We only use the information JVC have provided.
And we report on what we find.
There are issues exactly as we have reported...

James seems to have found a way to overcome saturation issue for example.

Quote:
“ I've hacked mine now using some barely documented commands that don't perform quite per their descriptions so that I now have the WCG filter enabled with the native panel response in one mode, and LS can generate fine looking WCG LUTs for this mode. “
That proves exactly what I have been saying about the gamut problem.
It is a real problem with the JVC projector.

Steve

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post #2017 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
We have implemented the LUT format based on the data we have been provided.
If there is data that shows/defines the LUT as being 256 steps we have not been provided it.

We have requested assistance from JVC (multiple times) and have received nothing in return.

Steve
If you're too proud to get help from others who are more knowledgeable on the JVCs, here's the info directly from JVC that shows that the LUT are in 256 steps:

Quote:
The gamma data has 256 adjustment points composed of binary data.
The byte order is little endian.
Source: http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PR...lish_Final.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Also, there is a real issue with the format, due to the way the points are spaced in 10bit, meaning there is always a distortion in the curve.
There is only "distortion in the curve" if you assume that the points are evenly spaced. They are not - they are at 5% intervals towards the extremes, and 10% intervals in between.

EDIT: Specifically, the points are at 5, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95 %input.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 03-22-2019 at 06:24 AM.
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post #2018 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 05:57 AM
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It has nothing about being 'proud'.
We would just never abuse someone else's independent work.

Your link is a '404'.

And yes, the displacement is the issue with the LUT.
But, you have made me think of something I may indeed have missed!

Steve

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post #2019 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Your link is a '404'.
The link works if you go to the URL directly. You can't click on the forum link as it not an https.
EDIT: Link corrected. It was missing “.pdf”

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 03-22-2019 at 06:25 AM.
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post #2020 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 06:08 AM
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Edit: nope, still a 404...

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post #2021 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
We only use the information JVC have provided.
And we report on what we find.
There are issues exactly as we have reported...

James seems to have found a way to overcome saturation issue for example.



That proves exactly what I have been saying about the gamut problem.
It is a real problem with the JVC projector.

Steve
Steve, this is becoming embarrassing really. And once more it illustrates how alienating it can be to try get support from Light Illusion.

Light Illusion clearly have limited hands-on experience and limited knowledge of the JVCs. By the way I'm still waiting for you to tell us which JVC model and which Autocal version you have used for your test, some of them do have known bugs.

James has found an undocumented way to force the filter on when using the JVC without a color profile, because the profile off setting has the filter disabled. This workaround is not usable as you have to keep doing it, and it's entirely irrelevant to this discussion. The Autocal works perfectly well with a colour profile. It's perfectly possible to generate very good internal 1D LUTs (or external 3D LUTs) with a color profile on with most units, even if in James case (or with my old rs500) using profile off might help.

I'm all for reporting issues (I keep doing so myself, both on the JVCs and on their excellent Autocal software). But please get your facts right.

The JVC Autocal and Arve's tool can produce excellent gamma curves with a 256 points resolution. If you have some issues, it can be due to the model/software version, or it could be your implementation.

And please stop using other people's feedback to conflate different issues simply because Light Illusion have not implemented something properly or you have limited first-hand experience of the products you are trying to support.

I've experienced this with madVR, and now it happens again with this JVC implementation. Why blaming the other party (JVC, madVR) when the issue could be solved if Light Illusion understood the third party product better?

With madVR, Light Illusion need to follow the specs and create 3D LUTs with standard video levels. That's what madVR expects. Anything else is incorrect.

With the JVC, Light Illusion need more first hand experience with them, and if using a 1D LUT needs to support the full 256 points supported by the JVC Autocal software internally.

Please stop rubbishing JVC projectors and the JVC Autocal software, in a public forum, after limited tests done on a poor implementation of a 1D LUT on your software. It doesn't help your users, and it doesn't help your company either.

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post #2022 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Edit: nope, still a 404...
Worked it out - the link was missing .pdf at the end.
Have got the document now - thanks for that!

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post #2023 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
We will only work with an official API/SDK from JVC.
We're not going to use someone else's work.

Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
It has nothing about being 'proud'.
We would just never abuse someone else's independent work.



Steve
Sorry, this made me chuckle.
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post #2024 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 06:48 AM
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Worked it out - the link was missing .pdf at the end.
Have got the document now - thanks for that!

Steve
You requested an API/SDK, so I thought the basic documentation wasn't enough.

It didn't occur to me that you had not downloaded the RS-232/IP protocol that has been made available to all JVC users for years (thanks to @Dominic Chan for thinking of it).

I have no idea how you dare criticize products (the JVC projectors and the JVC Autocal) when you don't even read the user documentation.

Please check your facts before your next public bashing of the JVCs or the calibration tool they offer.

And one last time, please stop inferring that I suggested you should steal or abuse Arve's work, I wouldn't have mentioned him otherwise.

I only suggested you looked at his publicly available source code to figure out what information was missing, in order to create your own code, and thanked him and gave him a credit if his work allowed you to do so.

I didn't realize that what was missing was reading the basic, publicly available IP/RS-232 protocol.

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post #2025 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 08:44 AM
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Hi,
I'm the one who came up with the idea of ​​using LightSpace's Color Engine to generate gamma files for Sony and JVC projectors. From me also comes the method with the ARVE tool to create HDR-EOFT curves for Sony projectors. I have been doing this for a while and know that the method is not 100% accurate and can not compete with a 3-D LUT. This also applies to the export for the Sony ImageDirector. Therefore, I think it's great that Steve has incorporated the Export.


But I do not understand what the problem with the export for JVC AutoCal is. LightSpace outputs the 12 output values ​​for the following input values ​​(positions):
5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 95%
These are the default positions of AutoCal.
JVC AutoCal correctly assigns the output values ​​to the input positions. If you interpolate the values ​​for Gamma 2.2 in 5% steps, you will also get a straight line in Excel.

It is basically correct that the gamma equalizers can neither correct the color space nor the white point and therefore these settings must be done manually as well as it is with the on-board means. A big advantage of the gamma equalizer, however, is that it protects the black level much better than the offset Controller. The result of LightSpace exported gamma curve is the better, the more accurately the color space and the white point were set before the measurement. An option is also to create your own ColorSpace for the projector, if the desired color space is technically impossible to achieve. But there still needs to be gained experience.

For the JVC projectors I offer yet another possibility to save an RGB-corrected gamma curve from LightSpace into the projector. This curve then has 256 positions and also 10-bit values. But again, the principle is that 0% and 100% can not be changed. At the moment I'm using LightSpace's export for "Video Card Gamma Table" and converting the data accordingly. Steve and his team would not need a day to build the export into LightSpace. The curves are saved in the JVC projector via the ARVE tool. At the moment the alpha tests are running.
So I already use existing interfaces to the projectors.
Peter

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post #2026 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OMARDRIS View Post
Hi,
I'm the one who came up with the idea of ​​using LightSpace's Color Engine to generate gamma files for Sony and JVC projectors. From me also comes the method with the ARVE tool to create HDR-EOFT curves for Sony projectors. I have been doing this for a while and know that the method is not 100% accurate and can not compete with a 3-D LUT. This also applies to the export for the Sony ImageDirector. Therefore, I think it's great that Steve has incorporated the Export.
I think the JVC has 3x 1DLUT, which will help with grey scale and gamma but not colour.

Quote:
But I do not understand what the problem with the export for JVC AutoCal is. LightSpace outputs the 12 output values ​​for the following input values ​​(positions):
5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 95%
These are the default positions of AutoCal.
JVC AutoCal correctly assigns the output values ​​to the input positions. If you interpolate the values ​​for Gamma 2.2 in 5% steps, you will also get a straight line in Excel.
There shouldn't be any problem. The reason Steve had issues was that he apparently assumed the 12 points are evenly spaced.

Quote:
For the JVC projectors I offer yet another possibility to save an RGB-corrected gamma curve from LightSpace into the projector. This curve then has 256 positions and also 10-bit values. But again, the principle is that 0% and 100% can not be changed. At the moment I'm using LightSpace's export for "Video Card Gamma Table" and converting the data accordingly.
100% could not be changed with the 12-pt gamma since there is not data associated with it; the highest point is 95%. I don't see why the 256-pt gamma would have the same limitation. Even 0% can be changed as long as no negative values are involved.
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post #2027 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OMARDRIS View Post
Hi,
I'm the one who came up with the idea of ​​using LightSpace's Color Engine to generate gamma files for Sony and JVC projectors. From me also comes the method with the ARVE tool to create HDR-EOFT curves for Sony projectors. I have been doing this for a while and know that the method is not 100% accurate and can not compete with a 3-D LUT. This also applies to the export for the Sony ImageDirector. Therefore, I think it's great that Steve has incorporated the Export.


But I do not understand what the problem with the export for JVC AutoCal is. LightSpace outputs the 12 output values ​​for the following input values ​​(positions):
5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 95%
These are the default positions of AutoCal.
JVC AutoCal correctly assigns the output values ​​to the input positions. If you interpolate the values ​​for Gamma 2.2 in 5% steps, you will also get a straight line in Excel.

It is basically correct that the gamma equalizers can neither correct the color space nor the white point and therefore these settings must be done manually as well as it is with the on-board means. A big advantage of the gamma equalizer, however, is that it protects the black level much better than the offset Controller. The result of LightSpace exported gamma curve is the better, the more accurately the color space and the white point were set before the measurement. An option is also to create your own ColorSpace for the projector, if the desired color space is technically impossible to achieve. But there still needs to be gained experience.

For the JVC projectors I offer yet another possibility to save an RGB-corrected gamma curve from LightSpace into the projector. This curve then has 256 positions and also 10-bit values. But again, the principle is that 0% and 100% can not be changed. At the moment I'm using LightSpace's export for "Video Card Gamma Table" and converting the data accordingly. Steve and his team would not need a day to build the export into LightSpace. The curves are saved in the JVC projector via the ARVE tool. At the moment the alpha tests are running.
So I already use existing interfaces to the projectors.
Peter
Hi Peter,

I applaud the work you did for the Sony and the JVC projectors. It's great to see more tools supporting these directly.

My issue is with the way Light Illusion deals with this, using an untested implementation to rubbish (again) the JVC projectors without any good reasons to do so.

Light Illusion are taking any opportunity to claim that the JVC projectors are unfit for purpose, or that the JVC Autocal is a piece of junk.

I was initially very positive about testing this new feature, then Steve dumped his statement that the fact their implementation wasn't working clearly proved that there was something wrong with the JVCs.

They are using a limited number of points, and they might not be spacing them correctly. Otherwise, as you know, Arve's tools and the JVC Autocal can create and upload custom curves that do not have any of these issues.

You are a JVC user yourself. You must know that this is complete nonsense, or you are not able to calibrate your projector properly if you have these issues using the JVC Autocal or Arve's tool.

There are some extreme cases (such as Bobof's unit or my old RS500) that can cause issues with 3D LUTs because of the way Lightspace handles undersaturated gamuts, but most units can be calibrated fine. It's not because Lightspace has these issues in some limited cases that it's fine to paint all the JVC models and units with the same brush. It's so unprofessional that I really don't understand the reasoning or the strategy behind it.

In fact, many Light Illusion clients such as Gordon at Convergent use Lightspace daily to calibrate JVC projectors, and they are not saying they are unfit for purpose or seizing any opportunity to rubbish them and the tools that come with them. They deliver great results to they clients, because if you know the projectors, the way they work and their limitations, you can get excellent results.

It is, sadly, a frequent attitude form Light Illusion: instead of making positive progress, fixing issues, they often rubbish the competition. That's very poor behaviour, and as long as they keep doing this and spread misinformation, they will find users like myself who don't care which tool they use as long as it works, but know their projector well enough to call bull***** when necessary.

It's always the same. Any offer to help is shot down, any potential issue is dismissed. Light Illusion need to be less defensive, and to realize that they have very little experience in the home cinema market, compared to enthusiasts who spend a lot more time than they'll ever will with these products and know them inside out. I guess this attitude might work with completely unexperienced users who think that Lightspace can't be wrong because it's used by studios, but for anyone else it's just poor customer relations. It's alienating and frankly sad, especially when there is good will that's systematically rejected.

My offer to help is still there. I'm not the only one. If Steve doesn't like me, he can ask @Dominic Chan to help provide feedback. He is very experienced and knows the JVC Autocal inside out. Or any competent calibrator who could provide feedback on this and knows that the JVCs are not the pile of junk Light Illusion would like their users to believe they are.

Hopefully Light Illusion will stop rubbishing the JVCs at every opportunity. This is simply ridiculous. They should either get first hand experience on them, or be consistent and declare that they are not supported, nor any projector, nor any consumer display, because they are not "fit for purpose" .
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post #2028 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 09:33 AM
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If Steve doesn't like me, he can ask @Dominic Chan to help provide feedback.
You're assuming Steve likes me. Not likely, I'm not even a LightSpace user.
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post #2029 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 09:58 AM
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You're assuming Steve likes me. Not likely, I'm not even a LightSpace user.
Oh sorry I thought you were a Lightspace user too. Thanks even more for contributing here then

If Peter was behind this, I don't understand why Light Illusion didn't ask him to beta test this implementation and figure out what wasn't working instead of coming up with this nonsense about an issue with the custom curves and the JVCs. As Peter uses Arve's tool and the JVC Autocal, and as he seems experienced, he must know that these issues aren't there when the custom curves are generated properly by either tool.

Anyway, we're here to help if Light Illusion want to ask (nicely) . Hopefully, if they don't like either of us, they'll ask someone like Gordon @ Convergent who actually knows the JVCs and could test this for them, as I'm sure he would use this feature (as I would) if it was available and working.

The problem is that most experienced calibrators who actually know both the JVCs and the JVC Autocal well (competent calibrators such as @Chad B or @Kris Deering for example) are Calman users. Gordon is the only one I can think of who would not buy into the "all JVCs have issues and are not fit for purpose" nonsense, but I'm not sure how familiar he is with the JVC Autocal given that he focuses on Radiances. I only know that he is a (satisfied) Lightspace user.

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post #2030 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 10:03 AM
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The problem is that most experienced calibrators who actually know both the JVCs and the JVC Autocal well (competent calibrators such as @Chad B or @Kris Deering for example) are Calman users.
Kris and Chad are LightSpace HTP users also.
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post #2031 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 10:14 AM
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Kris and Chad are LightSpace HTP users also.
Great, thanks Ted.

As Steve doesn't seem inclined to take feedback or advice from me or Dominic, I really hope that Light Illusion will ask competent calibrators who do know the JVCs and the JVC Autocal to give feedback on this new feature, instead of bashing the JVCs at every opportunity. This is not on and it has to stop.

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post #2032 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Kris and Chad are LightSpace HTP users also.
Kris just calibrated my JVC RS600. Since I traded Calman for LS awhile back, I asked if he would use LS for my calibration. He preferred to use Calman. The customer relations aspect of LS operations and the fact that I will likely own JVCs for the foreseeable future has me rethinking my decision. BTW he did an outstanding job calibrating my JVC.
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post #2033 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post
Kris just calibrated my JVC RS600. Since I traded Calman for LS awhile back, I asked if he would use LS for my calibration. He preferred to use Calman. The customer relations aspect of LS operations and the fact that I will likely own JVCs for the foreseeable future has me rethinking my decision. BTW he did an outstanding job calibrating my JVC.
Hi, does Kris performed a 3D LUT characterization via Lumagen/marVR or eeColor ? or just a normal calibration using projector controls?

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post #2034 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, does Kris performed a 3D LUT characterization via Lumagen/marVR or eeColor ? or just a normal calibration using projector controls?
I have a Radiance Pro. He did a LUT for one of my scenarios. It was not required in the other cases.
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post #2035 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post
I have a Radiance Pro. He did a LUT for one of my scenarios. It was not required in the other cases.
I think Kris used CalMAN because he didn't had enough time to check LightSpace, because he installed it before some weeks.

If you ask Lumagen directly (Gordon or Jim), they both recommend LightSpace as first choice, they have posted it to AVS a lot of times, they have performed plenty of tests.
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post #2036 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, does Kris performed a 3D LUT characterization via Lumagen/marVR or eeColor ? or just a normal calibration using projector controls?
I'm sure Kris will correct me if I'm wrong but usually he does what I do, which is to create a baseline with the JVC Autocal to get the best possible starting point, and then if there is no 3D LUT available he would use manual tweaks to set the whitepoint, make gamma/RGB balance manual adjustments, or if a Radiance is available he would use that and whichever software he gets the best results from to create a 3D LUT and get the PJ to reference. I don't think Kris is familiar with madVR 3D LUTs (yet), but I know he was investigating it.

This is also what Chad B does.

I have the utter respect for these calibrators because they are open minded and have no dogma. They try things, and if it works and gives good results, they use them. Initially, most calibrators were poo-pooing the JVC Autocal because it only supported Spyder meters, but there are way (if you are competent) to correct the Spyders errors and get excellent results. and in any case, you can use other tools and manual controls afterwards.

Using profile off, in my opinion, was a good option with SDR but it isn't the best option with HDR unless you don't want to use the filter to save brightness (only 10% in high lamp though with the new models). As it's perfectly possible to get excellent results with a color profile enabled, there is no reason to hobble the gamut cover / volume just to follow the dogma. On the JVCs, profile off isn't the way to get the best results IMO, especially with WCG calibrations.

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post #2037 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I think Kris used CalMAN because he didn't had enough time to check LightSpace, because he installed it before some weeks.

If you ask Lumagen directly (Gordon or Jim), they both recommend LightSpace as first choice, they have posted it to AVS a lot of times, they have performed plenty of tests.
This is speculation. I want to believe in and use LS going forward, however, I am finding that more difficult.
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post #2038 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post
This is speculation. I want to believe in and use LS going forward, however, I am finding that more difficult.
See there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...l#post57763422

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post #2039 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I'm sure Kris will correct me if I'm wrong but usually he does what I do, which is to create a baseline with the JVC Autocal to get the best possible starting point
Yes. He corrected some minor gamma droop with Autocal.
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post #2040 of 2392 Old 03-22-2019, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Ted, I haven't given up on LS. I am just expressing concern. BTW, I think you have been exemplary in your demeanor towards customers. I am looking forward to giving LS a go after accumulating more hours on this bulb. For reference, I have used HCFR and Calman in the past.
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