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post #2131 of 2328 Old 03-30-2019, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Yes, you are correct, I should have said “at least 265 points” for the Autocal. However, in the context of my post, as Light Illusion plans to use the same interface as Arve’s tool, the actual resolution of the 1D LUT would be 256 points as that’s what’s exposed externally.

If Light Illusion was able to harness whatever larger LUT the autocal is using internally (I don’t have your healthy habit of sniffing packets ), then it might be superior as you say, but that won’t happen with the publicly available API.
Damn, I was hoping you might have a pointer to some docs! I don't think there is much hope of the autocal API becoming public to be honest, and it's going to take a lot of dutch courage for me to go anywhere near my unit with a homebrew solution.
It is a real shame as it has huge potential if these really are using a massive 1D + 17^3 3D LUT internally.
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post #2132 of 2328 Old 03-30-2019, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Damn, I was hoping you might have a pointer to some docs! I don't think there is much hope of the autocal API becoming public to be honest, and it's going to take a lot of dutch courage for me to go anywhere near my unit with a homebrew solution.
It is a real shame as it has huge potential if these really are using a massive 1D + 17^3 3D LUT internally.
If the internal LUT is indeed as big it would explain why the JVC Autocal produces such good results, especially when you correct the Spyder5 errors with a custom color profile using a reference meter. It really makes using an external LUT unnecessary for most users. I wasn't convinced with the way the Autocal supports the i1pro2 on my first attempt with the rs2000, I need to investigate at some point, but as I get reference results with my Lightning LUT for now, I'm not in a hurry.
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post #2133 of 2328 Old 03-30-2019, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
And all LightSpace versions with calibration capability have the JVC (and Sony) 1D LUT's, so LightSpace HTL can work.
I’m struggling to find a part of the website that describes the process for doing this. I’ve only done full 3D LUTs for my Lumagen and eeColor before. Any idea where it is for the Sony 1D LUT?

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post #2134 of 2328 Old 03-30-2019, 05:51 PM
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Hi guys
Does Lightspace do Autocal for Sony VPL885/995 ?

Thank you


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post #2135 of 2328 Old 03-30-2019, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by vollans View Post
I’m struggling to find a part of the website that describes the process for doing this. I’ve only done full 3D LUTs for my Lumagen and eeColor before. Any idea where it is for the Sony 1D LUT?

Hello,

I would say that the workflow should be as follows :

- profile as usual
- 3D LUT generation as usual
- export the 3D LUT in the Sony format => this will create a specific 1D LUT file
- use Sony Image director software (https://www.sony.com/electronics/sup...loads/W0007813) or Sony Calibration PRO software (reserved for calibrator pro only) for uploading the file created by LS in a gamma slot of your Sony
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post #2136 of 2328 Old 03-31-2019, 03:03 AM
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FYI @Light Illusion ; someone else having to use LUT concatenation for a BENQ Laser DLP projector. It looks like having to use this is fairly widespread, and not limited to just the JVC lines.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57829984
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post #2137 of 2328 Old 03-31-2019, 03:07 AM
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If the 'display', what ever it is, has a volumetric gamut boost, and can't be set to show its native response, it will need LUT Concatenation.
It just means the manufacturers have not bothered to think about colour accuracy when designing their display firmware/colour workflow..

It is seriously appalling manufacturers are making such fundamental errors in their system design.

But, we have a good relationship with BenQ - I will have a chat with them.

Steve
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post #2138 of 2328 Old 03-31-2019, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
FYI @Light Illusion ; someone else having to use LUT concatenation for a BENQ Laser DLP projector. It looks like having to use this is fairly widespread, and not limited to just the JVC lines.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57829984
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
If the 'display', what ever it is, has a volumetric gamut boost, and can't be set to show its native response, it will need LUT Concatenation.
It just means the manufacturers have not bothered to think about colour accuracy when designing their display firmware/colour workflow..

It is seriously appalling manufacturers are making such fundamental errors in their system design.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57831360
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post #2139 of 2328 Old 03-31-2019, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
If the 'display', what ever it is, has a volumetric gamut boost, and can't be set to show its native response, it will need LUT Concatenation.
It just means the manufacturers have not bothered to think about colour accuracy when designing their display firmware/colour workflow..

It is seriously appalling manufacturers are making such fundamental errors in their system design.

But, we have a good relationship with BenQ - I will have a chat with them.
Sure, seeing how the LS engine works I can see that. I guess it was more a datapoint for you that this isn't just our rubbish JVC projectors ( ) and is clearly affecting other brands (I think you also mentioned some Sony units needing the LUT concatenation process too?) The more displays this kind of thing affects I think the stronger the arguments for looking at improving things in the workflow when faced with this kind of display.

I don't know if there was another mode that the particular user could have deployed that might have worked better without needing LUT concatenation, but there are often all kinds of intertwined relationships between the modes that can be unhelpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Thanks Ted. It shouldn't be too surprising the RGB separation is a disaster, I understand this projector has a blue laser source hitting a phosphor wheel to generate yellow light, and that the colourwheel sequence is actually RGBY (so it lets through Yellow light in one part of the frame to get more brightness). This is quite like WRGB OLED. Blue passes direct from the laser, green and red are filtered from the yellow light off the phosphor being hit by blue laser, and the yellow segment passes the phosphor light directly without colour filtering.

In the case of the RGBY colourwheel of course it is a tricky problem to improve colour separation; you can't just turn off the yellow segment of the wheel. Doing so would result in visible flicker because the yellow segment represents some % of the display cycle, and these projectors are already sensitive to producing rainbow effect in some viewers.
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post #2140 of 2328 Old 03-31-2019, 05:23 AM
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So here's a mildly entertaining diversion from the usual...
My eyeglass lenses have a slight blue cut. This makes screen work (I do non-colour critical CAD much of the day) a bit more comfortable, but obviously isn't great for colour accuracy. I notice the slight yellow shift when I put them on.

I'd like to correct that out when I'm the only one watching in the cinema room...

Now I know I could generate my colorimeter correction matrix with the glasses in front of the JETI spectro, but that means re-profiling the display, and the profiles I've got are perfectly good.

If I wanted to correct for these lenses for existing profiles, what would be the best way to do it?
In an ideal world the raw profile measurements (without matrix correction) would be available so you could apply a different correction later; but that's not possible?
Is it possible to achieve the same result with some variation of LUT concatenation?

Or is the only valid option to re-profile with the glasses in the path for the spectro correction?
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post #2141 of 2328 Old 03-31-2019, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by alex_t View Post
Hello,

I would say that the workflow should be as follows :

- profile as usual
- 3D LUT generation as usual
- export the 3D LUT in the Sony format => this will create a specific 1D LUT file
- use Sony Image director software (https://www.sony.com/electronics/sup...loads/W0007813) or Sony Calibration PRO software (reserved for calibrator pro only) for uploading the file created by LS in a gamma slot of your Sony
@vollans Since the purpose is to upload to a Sony gamma slot you don't need to do a large LUT; do the LUT with the Sony Gamma set to OFF; Import the new Rec 709 Gamma to its respective slot and if you use Image Director you can import to gamma 7 - 10 if you are doing an HDR curve or you want to implement some other Rec 709 Gamma (e.g., 2.35).
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post #2142 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
So here's a mildly entertaining diversion from the usual...
My eyeglass lenses have a slight blue cut. This makes screen work (I do non-colour critical CAD much of the day) a bit more comfortable, but obviously isn't great for colour accuracy. I notice the slight yellow shift when I put them on.

I'd like to correct that out when I'm the only one watching in the cinema room...

Now I know I could generate my colorimeter correction matrix with the glasses in front of the JETI spectro, but that means re-profiling the display, and the profiles I've got are perfectly good.

If I wanted to correct for these lenses for existing profiles, what would be the best way to do it?
In an ideal world the raw profile measurements (without matrix correction) would be available so you could apply a different correction later; but that's not possible?
Is it possible to achieve the same result with some variation of LUT concatenation?

Or is the only valid option to re-profile with the glasses in the path for the spectro correction?
Yep, you can use a LUT concatenation approach to add an 'offset' LUT to the calibration LUT...
Or, you can make a new colour space that cancels the yellow shift, and then re-make the LUT using the original profile and the new colour space.

Either would work.

Steve
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post #2143 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
Hi guys
Does Lightspace do Autocal for Sony VPL885/995 ?

Thank you
As per my email response, Autocal is a guesstimation approach, no better than a manual calibration.
See: https://www.lightillusion.com/autocal.html

You will often get much better result with a manual approach.

Steve

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post #2144 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
As per my email response, Autocal is a guesstimation approach, no better than a manual calibration.
See: https://www.lightillusion.com/autocal.html

You will often get much better result with a manual approach.
I should point out that JVC's Autocal works at a low level and calibrates the "base" gamma curves. It has a direct impact on "additional" calibration including manual calibration, autocal implemented in "third party" calibration software, even 3D-LUT as none of those have the same granularity as the JVC autocal (256 points, or possibly even higher according to bobof's "sniffing"). All other calibrations ride "on top" of the base gamma and can thus inherit the defficiencies of the JVC Autocal.

The referenced LightSpace "anti-autocal" article probably pre-dates the inclusion of autocal in LightSpace . Either that, or it’s meant to cover the a** when people complain about LS autocal

Many of the issues attributed to autocal affect manual calibration as well, so I don't see why they are listed as autocal issues:

Quote:
Another issue with Autocal is potential misalignment of the correction points with the control's adjustment
Quote:
Additionally, any given point's adjustment will impact other points within the available adjustments, requiring each point to be adjusted more than once
Quote:
the actual adjustment value will be different for different TVs
Quote:
Each adjusted point also often affects other associated points
Quote:
the final accuracy is down to... the level of granularity of the possible adjustments
Quote:
ABL/ASBL, AND OTHER SUCH ISSUES
Quote:
A further issue is heat build-up, and cool-down, during the Autocal process, as different luma level patches will be on-screen for different time duration.
Also, I'm not sure why autocal cannot base its adjustments by "Looking at feedback from a calibration system when taking live, continuous readings".
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post #2145 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 09:01 AM
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Hi Dominic,

Steve is referring in this article to the old school Autocal such as the one in Calman about 10 years ago.

It worked fine with gamma, but couldn't work with gamut because it used the CMS of the JVCs which has been broken since... forever.

Nothing to do with the Autocal of the current JVCs (from the 4910 and up), which works much better than the old gen Calman autocal if used properly.

I don't think that Steve has any first hand experience with the JVC Autocal, or with any recent JVC otherwise he wouldn't make these comments.
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post #2146 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I should point out that JVC's Autocal works at a low level and calibrates the "base" gamma curves. It has a direct impact on "additional" calibration including manual calibration, autocal implemented in "third party" calibration software, even 3D-LUT as none of those have the same granularity as the JVC autocal (256 points, or possibly even higher according to bobof's "sniffing"). All other calibrations ride "on top" of the base gamma and can thus inherit the defficiencies of the JVC Autocal.

The referenced LightSpace "anti-autocal" article probably pre-dates the inclusion of autocal in LightSpace . Either that, or it’s meant to cover the a** when people complain about LS autocal.
You have confused what AutoCAL mean. Are you LightSpace or CalMAN user?

AutoCAL is a CalMAN name for a feature, which is using real-time adjustments of multiple times of the same point, guessing what RGB adjustments to do and then move to next point. So to perform 26-Point Grayscale (with LG for example...which as 1024-step 1D LUT), it can take 100-300 readings...reading multiple times these exact 26 points.(according to the dE method you will choose and how tight you want your dE, it will take less or more). If you need different gamma target you have to re-run the whole AutoCAL again.

LightSpace, for exact same application, you can take 33-Point Grayscale and then from these 33 grayscale measurements, it generates at-once-one 1D LUT 1024-step table. If you need other gamma target, then using the same measurement data (you are not take new measurements), you ask to generate a different gamma LUT (2-3seconds it takes), this is called 'display profiling'.

If you like, you can use more points, like 46-Point Grayscale we have found that it provides better results.

When you are using JVC or Sony calibration (you say as AutoCAL) its doing exact the same, from one sweep of grayscale (you can create a custom grayscale patch set with up to 101-point Grayscale inside of any levels you like, and import it to LightSpace) you do exact same procedure, from measured data of one meter read per each different point.

So AutoCAL, don't mean the same between software, just the name is more popular from CalMAN users, of what this procedure is doing.

CalMAN has profiling capabilities also, but its not called 'AutoCAL', its LUT capabilities, so profiling; 'Lightning LUT' is named etc.

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post #2147 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
You have confused what AutoCAL mean. Are you LightSpace or CalMAN user?
Well, the original question was
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post
Hi guys
Does Lightspace do Autocal for Sony VPL885/995 ?
to which Steve replied
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
As per my email response, Autocal is a guesstimation approach, no better than a manual calibration.
To me the question used “Autocal” to mean “automatic calibration”, as obviously Lightspice would not be doing “CalMAN Autocal”.
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post #2148 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 10:10 AM
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The 'Autocal' being referred to is as Ted says - the guesstimation approach of adjusting grey scale points one at a time by taking a measurement, 'guessing' what adjustment is required and making it, and then re-measuring to see if the guess was correct, and if not making another guessed change.

This is via DDC controls, and is in reality no better than manual calibration.
'Some' displays do provide more 'points' for DCC Autocal that are offered for manual calibration, but nor many.

The issue is the guesstimation cyclical approach to making the adjustments.
The results are not at all guaranteed.

LightSpace has no such 'Autocal' approach, as all our calibration is based on our colour engine, which cannot be used for such adjustments.

Steve

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post #2149 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
And Steve’s reply was
Yes, because users know AutoCAL from CalMAN, what is doing there...

'AutoCAL' means CalMAN all the times, its a guess-work procedure, see this video hxxps://youtu.be/XYMmIZDv-6E?t=551 (replace ''xx'' with ''tt'')

If you re-measure the whole Grayscale (after the end of AutoCAL), it will have more errors from that the dE average reports (after the end of AutoCA), since you know that from manual cal experience, when you do point-to-point calibration, always its affects nearby points, so when you will end the whole grayscale doing one-by-one real-time adjustments....all your dE will be perfect, but when you will re-measure whole grayscale, you will see that re-tweak required all the time, for that reason it takes multiple passes the manual cal, because you adjust something and it affects your previously calibrated points.

AutoCAL doing exact the same just in automated way.

You can say that AutoCAL (like the way means from CalMAN users) is not supported by LightSpace, but is supported display profiling (only) via LightSpace with JVC or Sony.

Dominic, have you used CalMAN (AutoCAL) or LightSpace?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
The 'Autocal' being referred to is as Ted says - the guesstimation approach of adjusting grey scale points one at a time by taking a measurement, 'guessing' what adjustment is required and making it, and then re-measuring to see if the guess was correct, and if not making another guessed change.

LightSpace has no such 'Autocal' approach, as all our calibration is based on our colour engine, which cannot be used for such adjustments.

Steve
@Dominic Chan @Franin The additional confusion is that Sony does in fact have an "Auto Calibration Function" ("Menu_Advanced Picture Menu_Auto Calibration") which might lead one to believe that it can be used in a fashion similar to other projectors. However I had answered Franin in an earlier post in the 885ES thread that the Sony auto cal is not like that in JVC and that either Sony Calibration Pro could be used for a manual step-thru calibration or Image Director for gamma only changes. Separately there was the discussion about the new Image Director file export function in LS that is very beneficial. Perhaps Franin thought the Sony functionality (auto cal or 1DLUT import) tied to LS in a tighter manner than it does.
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post #2151 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
LightSpace has no such 'Autocal' approach, as all our calibration is based on our colour engine, which cannot be used for such adjustments.
I am in no position to dispute the merits of the colour engine approach over the DDC Control approach. My comment is simply that, in neither your reply above to Franin nor the article it linked to, was the context of “autocal” made clear to the reader.

The reply in post 2148 is much clearer.

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post #2152 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

LightSpace, for exact same application, you can take 33-Point Grayscale and then from these 33 grayscale measurements, it generates at-once-one 1D LUT 1024-step table. If you need other gamma target, then using the same measurement data (you are not take new measurements), you ask to generate a different gamma LUT (2-3seconds it takes), this is called 'display profiling'.

If you like, you can use more points, like 46-Point Grayscale we have found that it provides better results.

When you are using JVC or Sony calibration (you say as AutoCAL) its doing exact the same, from one sweep of grayscale (you can create a custom grayscale patch set with up to 101-point Grayscale inside of any levels you like, and import it to LightSpace) you do exact same procedure, from measured data of one meter read per each different point.
@Light Illusion I built a minimum file that contains the 100 grayscale patches Ted refers to and then use that as the basis for an Image Director export. I don't know how many of these reads LS actually uses to build this file but it has really helped improve low-black separation from what I could do manually. I am really impressed with how much easier this has made things.
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post #2153 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Well, the original question was


to which Steve replied


To me the question used “Autocal” to mean “automatic calibration”, as obviously Lightspice would not be doing “CalMAN Autocal”.
Spot on Dominic exactly what I meant I just wanted to know it if LightSpace was doing what Calman did with Autocalibration with JVC Projectors and if they did was it available for the for Sony VPL885/995ES projectors.
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post #2154 of 2328 Old 04-01-2019, 11:14 PM
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I guess the question is really; what form of 'Auto Calibration' is being discussed?

Calman use Autocal to define DDC based guesstimation adjustments (as per the link https://www.lightillusion.com/autocal.html), but now also use the same term for some 'LUT' based calibration... so yes, it is very confusing!

And with Calman's latest LG calibration the 1D LUT is generated via guesstimation based cyclical point changes, while the 3D LUT is 'calculated'.

LightSpace doesn't do guesstimation.
It only performs mathematical calculated LUT based calibrations, or manual adjustments.

But it does do LUTs for many different displays, including LUTs for some Sony projectors that use Sony ImageDirector.
So if that is what the original question was actually related to, then yes is the answer.

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post #2155 of 2328 Old 04-03-2019, 09:46 AM
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I am a new LightSpace user having used CalMAN and other programs for years. I wanted to compare CM LUT to LS LUT.

I used CM to make a 2500 point LUT with an eeColor connected to a Sony LED LCD, with very good to excellent results.

I then used LightSpace to make a maximum size (21 on the slider) profile. I used my laptop's Intel HDMI output directly to the TV, and made doubly sure everything was zeroed out which it was since I have been using this laptop HDMI to calibrate Dolby Vision modes with CM.

I replaced the eeColor's default iD LUTs as explained in the LS eeColor documentation.

I exported the LUT. I uploaded the resulting eeColor65 LUT to the eeColor.

I checked video levels, and it was fine.

I then used CM to check the results.

The results were much better than with no LUT, but far worse than CM's LUT. I would not consider it acceptable.

Ted's eeColor page says the LUT must be rescaled, but levels appear correct without having done that. Is that the problem? If so, exactly what is the process? LS documentation is confusing to me here.

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post #2156 of 2328 Old 04-03-2019, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
I am a new LightSpace user having used CalMAN and other programs for years. I wanted to compare CM LUT to LS LUT.

I used CM to make a 2500 point LUT with an eeColor connected to a Sony LED LCD, with very good to excellent results.

I then used LightSpace to make a maximum size (21 on the slider) profile. I used my laptop's Intel HDMI output directly to the TV, and made doubly sure everything was zeroed out which it was since I have been using this laptop HDMI to calibrate Dolby Vision modes with CM.

I replaced the eeColor's default iD LUTs as explained in the LS eeColor documentation.

I exported the LUT. I uploaded the resulting eeColor65 LUT to the eeColor.

I checked video levels, and it was fine.

I then used CM to check the results.

The results were much better than with no LUT, but far worse than CM's LUT. I would not consider it acceptable.

Ted's eeColor page says the LUT must be rescaled, but levels appear correct without having done that. Is that the problem? If so, exactly what is the process? LS documentation is confusing to me here.
Hi Chad,

The eecolor might suffer from the same issue as the madVR implementation (it's the same LUT format), which is that you have to apply a video scale filter to every single LUT produced. I also use video levels with madVR, and I have to apply video scale pass black to each LUT generated by LS or it's invalid, given that madVR specs require video level input and Lightspace happily generates invalid LUTs for madVR. Maybe the issue is the same with eecolor?

I'm sure Ted or Steve will pitch in. Unfortunately I don't have first hand experience of the eecolor. Usually LS produces good LUTs (as long as the display isn't undersaturated), but there are often manual steps involved to get them right.
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Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders

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post #2157 of 2328 Old 04-03-2019, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
I am a new LightSpace user having used CalMAN and other programs for years. I wanted to compare CM LUT to LS LUT.

I used CM to make a 2500 point LUT with an eeColor connected to a Sony LED LCD, with very good to excellent results.

I then used LightSpace to make a maximum size (21 on the slider) profile. I used my laptop's Intel HDMI output directly to the TV, and made doubly sure everything was zeroed out which it was since I have been using this laptop HDMI to calibrate Dolby Vision modes with CM.

I replaced the eeColor's default iD LUTs as explained in the LS eeColor documentation.

I exported the LUT. I uploaded the resulting eeColor65 LUT to the eeColor.

I checked video levels, and it was fine.

I then used CM to check the results.

The results were much better than with no LUT, but far worse than CM's LUT. I would not consider it acceptable.

Ted's eeColor page says the LUT must be rescaled, but levels appear correct without having done that. Is that the problem? If so, exactly what is the process? LS documentation is confusing to me here.
Hi Chad,

PC with the output you have for DV calibration its outputting 0-255 patterns.

So for sure you have levels issue before even staring any measurement.

You need to set @ LightSpace Options patch scale (Min: 16 Max: 235) to be able to generate 16-235 patterns when you calibrate for video levels.

Also VideoScale passblack is always required for eeColor (not for Lumagen), if you don't apply it before export, then the colors will look totally wrong.

LightSpace generate a correction for 0-255 levels, and eeColor LUT is 0-255, since you calibrate for video levels, you need to apply a filter to map black to 16 and white to 235 to the 0-255 LUT file.

This is not required for Lumagen, since the LUT of Lumagen is already 16-235.

That detail for eeColor is available to Lightspace Guide for eeColor also.

Come back with more details, upload measurements files (export them from ColorSpace Manager -> Export), if you still have problem after you will apply videoscale. (or send me email).
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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #2158 of 2328 Old 04-03-2019, 10:24 AM
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Here are some screencaps of the results.
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post #2159 of 2328 Old 04-03-2019, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
Here are some screencaps of the results.
Its visible that you haven't applied videoscale, for that reason you see over-saturation.
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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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post #2160 of 2328 Old 04-03-2019, 10:49 AM
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Thanks for the help Ted. I will work on it.

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