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post #2161 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 11:15 AM
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One more question.

My laptop's touchpad left clicker is fussy and doesn't hold consistently when trying to click and drag. I can get it to work, but it's a pain. When using CM and extending the laptop's output to the display under test, after a few tries I am able to drag the pattern window over and click it to make it take over the entire screen. Then I am able to tell CM what size and style of window I want. There is nothing on the screen under test except the window, and it's size is selected precisely.

However, with LS, when the measurement window appears and I right click on the border it gives me the option to move or resize. I can get it to move over to the display under test, but I have a harder time resizing it. When I eventually do get it to resize, there is still a white border across the top of the window and the computer's toolbar is still at the bottom of the screen. The window size is unknown; I can only visually guess how big it is. I can get rid of the bottom toolbar, but only by making it also disappear from my laptop, which I do not prefer. I'd like to be able to see nothing but the window, and know exactly what size window it is. Is there a way to do this?

Also, Steve, could I make a request for support of the popular Quantum Data 780/804 series pattern generators so someday I won't have to worry about this? Thanks.

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post #2162 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
Thanks for the help Ted. I will work on it.
How you have converted the correction colorspace? what you have selected @ Source and @ destination, what method have you used? Peak Chroma?

General rule when you do 3D LUT (with any software) is to pre-cal 100% White with minimal controls possible (RGB-Gains only) while you will watch the peak output, so that way you set your peak output also. (use native gamut and without any extra processing active, something it will be visible to RGB Separation chart.

Just with CalMAN set extra 10% more nits because it will cut them (for unknown reason after the LUT generation, explained with graphs there).

I don't see that you have done this.

Also when you want to verify a LUT using a different generator from other software (like you did), you have first to verify the results from inside LightSpace with the patch generation you used. If you later measure with other generator and software and you will find differences then means somewhere you have issue with patch generation settings.

If you have a Murideo/DVDO/Accupel, both LightSpace / CalMAN can use them, so use that one of them when you generate and then verify results from other software.

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post #2163 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
How you have converted the correction colorspace? what you have selected @ Source and @ destination, what method have you used? Peak Chroma?

General rule when you do 3D LUT (with any software) is to pre-cal 100% White with minimal controls possible (RGB-Gains only) while you will watch the peak output, so that way you set your peak output also. (use native gamut and without any extra processing active, something it will be visible to RGB Separation chart.

Just with CalMAN set extra 10% more nits because it will cut them (for unknown reason after the LUT generation, explained with graphs there).

I don't see that you have done this.

Also when you want to verify a LUT using a different generator from other software (like you did), you have first to verify the results from inside LightSpace with the patch generation you used. If you later measure with other generator and software and you will find differences then means somewhere you have issue with patch generation settings.

If you have a Murideo/DVDO/Accupel, both LightSpace / CalMAN can use them, so use that one of them when you generate and then verify results from other software.
@ source I selected bt1886. @ destination I used the name of my display characterization, which was "sony mon 720 21 .5 del".

Yes, this Sony display is unusual in that the white balance can't be calibrated. It was marketed as a Playstation 3 monitor back in the day. It only offers the white balance presets warm, cool, and normal. I used warm. There is also no color gamut selection, so I had to make do with some undersaturation of red. I did calibrate brightness and contrast using the QD 804a.

Yes, looks like I am getting some complication from using my laptop's HDMI output to profile and then a QD 804a PG to verify. I used to have a DVDO TPG, but I got rid of it because I didn't like how it handled custom patterns and images. Now I'm starting to regret doing that. I do have a Lumagen Mini though, so maybe I'll use that as a PG.

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post #2164 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Chad,

PC with the output you have for DV calibration its outputting 0-255 patterns.

So for sure you have levels issue before even staring any measurement.

You need to set @ LightSpace Options patch scale (Min: 16 Max: 235) to be able to generate 16-235 patterns when you calibrate for video levels.

Also VideoScale passblack is always required for eeColor (not for Lumagen), if you don't apply it before export, then the colors will look totally wrong.

LightSpace generate a correction for 0-255 levels, and eeColor LUT is 0-255, since you calibrate for video levels, you need to apply a filter to map black to 16 and white to 235 to the 0-255 LUT file.

This is not required for Lumagen, since the LUT of Lumagen is already 16-235.

That detail for eeColor is available to Lightspace Guide for eeColor also.

Come back with more details, upload measurements files (export them from ColorSpace Manager -> Export), if you still have problem after you will apply videoscale. (or send me email).
Hi Ted,

This is not correct. Any PC can be configured to output 16-235 or 0-255.

So while Chad most probably has to apply the video filter pass black as I suggested, he shouldn’t use the patch scale if he is outputting video levels. If he is outputting PC levels for DV calibration, then you are correct.

I tried this with madVR outputting video levels before I identified the issue with pass black, and that didn’t work at all.

Lightspace should have an option to allow the user to specify if they are using video levels or PC levels and adjust patches and apply any necessary filter automatically. Even if Lighspace isn’t clever enough to know which filter to apply, at least it should allow us to save our selection somewhere so that it’s applied to all the LUTs created.

This is the way it works with Calman, you select once between video levels and PC Levels, it’s saved with your workflow and you never have to worry about levels ever again. The correct patches are called, and valid LUTs are saved. This is the same with DisplayCAL, video levels are supported correctly and only valid LUTs are created and uploaded to the LUT box.

I have no idea why Light Illusion stubbornly refuses to improve the way this is handled for madVR (and now eecolor) users. Why force the user to do this every single time, to generate every single LUT?

For Chad as for me, we always use the same pattern generator. Having to specify all this manually is not only a waste of time, it also makes the process error prone, even with experienced users.
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post #2165 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 11:57 AM
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I did have the laptop set to 0-255 as that is what CM DV settings call for and that's how the QD (and I believe other) generators operate natively in regards to RGB triplets.

I will have to work on all this again when I get the time.

Manni, I emphatically agree with the rest of your above post. I am not wanting to complain at this point, but it seems like many parts of this process could be made more logical and simple. I'm hoping the new program under development takes care of that.
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post #2166 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 12:25 PM
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Just to reiterate, we provide tools that can be applied as need for different applications.
(Calibration, as well as colour workflows management, camera conversion, etc.)

We do not provide fixed 'workflows' for specific displays.

It is down to the user to define how to apply the tools we provide.
The reason is simple - we do have a desire to help train/educate users as to the underlying needs/expectations for all aspects of colour management.
We do not offer shortcuts, as that often mean users skip learning the underlying needs for given processes.

The eeColor LUT box is a good example, as the box always uses a full range LUT, but with the active LUT data scaled within it as needed for different workflows.
We have users that need full Data Range; other with standard Video Levels; and yet others with video black, but with Super White.
We do not therefore default to any specific pre-set video scale when exporting the LUT, as the user needs to be able to define the scale they want to apply.

The approach runs throughout LightSpace, and is at the heart of our approach to supplying 'unrestricted tools' to our users.

Steve

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post #2167 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
You need to set @ LightSpace Options patch scale (Min: 16 Max: 235) to be able to generate 16-235 patterns when you calibrate for video levels.

Also VideoScale passblack is always required for eeColor (not for Lumagen), if you don't apply it before export, then the colors will look totally wrong.

Come back with more details, upload measurements files (export them from ColorSpace Manager -> Export), if you still have problem after you will apply videoscale. (or send me email).
I did a quick (6 on the slider scale) LUT after making both of the above changes. The laptop's Intel settings are still at 0-255; I'm assuming that is correct, right?

Still using the QD 804a with CM to verify. Once again, there appears to be no problem with video levels as checked visually with the 804a (blacks are black, reproduction of levels 17-255, though above 235 is discolored). The results are somewhat better. I am not expecting perfect results since I did not take the full 21 slider profile this time, but it seems there is still room for much improvement.

The attached zip file is the measurement file.
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post #2168 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Just to reiterate, we provide tools that can be applied as need for different applications.
(Calibration, as well as colour workflows management, camera conversion, etc.)

We do not provide fixed 'workflows' for specific displays.

It is down to the user to define how to apply the tools we provide.
The reason is simple - we do have a desire to help train/educate users as to the underlying needs/expectations for all aspects of colour management.
We do not offer shortcuts, as that often mean users skip learning the underlying needs for given processes.

The eeColor LUT box is a good example, as the box always uses a full range LUT, but with the active LUT data scaled within it as needed for different workflows.
We have users that need full Data Range; other with standard Video Levels; and yet others with video black, but with Super White.
We do not therefore default to any specific pre-set video scale when exporting the LUT, as the user needs to be able to define the scale they want to apply.

The approach runs throughout LightSpace, and is at the heart of our approach to supplying 'unrestricted tools' to our users.

Steve
Steve, I'm not asking for workflows, I'm asking for Lightspace to generate valid LUTs for madVR, like other software do.

MadVR asks for video levels LUTs. PC Level LUTs are invalid. Full stop. It's in the specs. Lightspace is happily generating invalid LUTs for madVR, and you ask the user to manually correct for this.

Also please stop with the patronizing attitude regarding workflows and the need to educate users. I've been calibrating for years and I understand the underlying science.

I'm not asking for workflows as in a forced sequence to perform tasks. I never use workflows that way, even with Calman. I'm asking for a way to save settings that are always the same between sessions, and am explaining how Calman achieves this with workflows. It can be achieved without workflows, for example with "profiles" or whatever you want to call them, i.e. a group of settings that users could save, and load for a specific calibration. It doesn't mean that you have to embrace the layout philosophy as well (though it has many other advantages, as often discussed, especially to easily compare before/after measurements, etc).

What needs to be saved (optionally if some of your users enjoy wasting time) are things such as:

- video levels or PC levels. You only need to set this once.
- patch to be used. Same as above.
- IP address of madVR (or other IP controlled sources/LUT holders) if the software isn't clever enough to find it automatically, like Calman and DisplayCAL do.
- video scale filter that needs to be applied to every single LUT because the software doesn't follow the specs (for madVR, as apparently the eecolor allows PC Levels LUTs).

For those who use the same source to generate patterns, this isn't going to change between sessions. Even less so for those who always calibrate the same display (remember, your HT users are not calibrators roaming around calibrating a different display each time, they often calibrate the same display).

Keep the tool "flexible" for those who are happy to repeat, for each session, with every single LUT that is generated, the same steps. Or for those that have a genuine need to change these settings all the time. But for those who have better things to do, it would be nice to save these settings somewhere. It doesn't have to be a workflow.

There is simply no way to defend this lack of usability of the software. Saving these settings wouldn't take away the flexibility of the software, or prevent you from "educating" users.

Experienced, already educated users would appreciate to have a software that saves time and limits the risk of errors, especially when some of the unnecessary steps are due to a bug that Light Illusion refuses to fix.

Otherwise, we'll use Lightspace when we have to, but we'll go back to another tool when we don't. I use Lightspace less than 10% of the time simply because its interface is poorly designed and its a pain to use, especially with madVR as it adds so many unnecessary steps to get to the same result. I really have to have no other way to get what I want to force myself to use it. And every single time, I resent it.

I wish it was different, but unfortunately it doesn't look like this is going to change.
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post #2169 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
I did a quick (6 on the slider scale) LUT after making both of the above changes. The laptop's Intel settings are still at 0-255; I'm assuming that is correct, right?

Still using the QD 804a with CM to verify. Once again, there appears to be no problem with video levels as checked visually with the 804a (blacks are black, reproduction of levels 17-255, though above 235 is discolored). The results are somewhat better. I am not expecting perfect results since I did not take the full 21 slider profile this time, but it seems there is still room for much improvement.

The attached zip file is the measurement file.
I'd be tempted to run a couple of the QP (quick profile) sets in LS from the calibration interface after having loaded the LUT to prove that there isn't some difference happening between your Calman setup and your LS setup. The Memory colours plus secondaries is a favourite of mine, it measures a 21pt greyscale, the primary and secondaries and a bunch of memory colours, so is a very good ready reckoner of having a sensible LUT (edit: I should add, it doesn't tell you anything about banding, so you need to check that with other means like Grainger chart) . It takes a couple of minutes to run and if you see a greyscale which is very different to the greyscale you see in Calman then you clearly know there is an issue there.
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post #2170 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
@ source I selected bt1886. @ destination I used the name of my display characterization, which was "sony mon 720 21 .5 del". Yes, looks like I am getting some complication from using my laptop's HDMI output to profile and then a QD 804a PG to verify. I used to have a DVDO TPG, but I got rid of it because I didn't like how it handled custom patterns and images. Now I'm starting to regret doing that. I do have a Lumagen Mini though, so maybe I'll use that as a PG.
Hi Chad,

Since the measurements for proofing made using 0-255 patches, make no sense to keep that profiling data and examine it more, all starting from patch generation, you have to use video level pattern to be able to generate a video level LUT. So ignore that profiling and perform a new one using Lumagen Mini as generator. But verify using Lumagen Mini from CalMAN also.

Set Lumagen to output YCbCr 4:2:2 patterns, its the only option which provide accurate patch generation (without added processing to the output signal).
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post #2171 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Hi Ted,

This is not correct. Any PC can be configured to output 16-235 or 0-255.

So while Chad most probably has to apply the video filter pass black as I suggested, he shouldn’t use the patch scale if he is outputting video levels. If he is outputting PC levels for DV calibration, then you are correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
I did have the laptop set to 0-255 as that is what CM DV settings call for and that's how the QD (and I believe other) generators operate natively in regards to RGB triplets.
Manni, when you have a PC which can output DV patch generation (then you are very lucky), means that it can output 1080p60 8bit RGB-Full with no digital errors, because DV patterns contain some special pixels, only bit-perfect output can perform this.

So, that notebook is proven that is has bit-perfect RGB-Full output, you just add an offset form LightSpace to make 16-235 and you have bit perfect 16-235 RGB Triplet generation.

Every notebook can output RGB-Video but they compress the RGB-Full to RGB-Video, so its unknown if you don't have a signal analyzer to see if this performed bit-perfect. Youare not playing with that stuff, unless you have analyzer to test that is working.

The same is happening with YCbCr output, its not bit-perfect unless you test the notebook output. When you have a notebook which can do DV patch generation, you don't change anything to its settings, because if something happen and you are on tour calibration, to a customer place, you will have problem.

So you keep the notebook as you have found that can output pit-perfect RGB-Full and add offset in LightSpace.
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post #2172 of 2368 Old 04-03-2019, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Manni, when you have a PC which can output DV patch generation (then you are very lucky), means that it can output 1080p60 8bit RGB-Full with no digital errors, because DV patterns contain some special pixels, only bit-perfect output can perform this.
Hi Ted,

Yes, you must have missed that bit in my post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
If he is outputting PC levels for DV calibration, then you are correct.
Chad afterwards confirmed that he was outputting 0-255, in which case he does need to change the patch range.

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Hi Ted,

Yes, you must have missed that bit in my post:

Chad afterwards confirmed that he was outputting 0-255, in which case he does need to change the patch range.
Chad said that he used 0-255 levels from his first post, what do you mean 'in which case he does need to change the patch range'?

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post #2174 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
I did a quick (6 on the slider scale) LUT after making both of the above changes. The laptop's Intel settings are still at 0-255; I'm assuming that is correct, right?

Still using the QD 804a with CM to verify. Once again, there appears to be no problem with video levels as checked visually with the 804a (blacks are black, reproduction of levels 17-255, though above 235 is discolored). The results are somewhat better. I am not expecting perfect results since I did not take the full 21 slider profile this time, but it seems there is still room for much improvement.

The attached zip file is the measurement file.
Hi Chad,

I can't enlarge the picture you have upload, the zip also can't be downloaded.

What extra delay setting have you used @ LightSpace Options? Measure from inside LightSpace the verification to see if its maching the results you verify with CalMAN.

Basically use Lumagen Mini next time, or use the HDMI notebook output from CalMAN as verification. But don't use different patch generation ways to verify from each software.

Upload also the two 3D LUT files you are using (zipped), one LightSpace generated and the one CalMAN has generated.

To find out CalMAN file, look @ C:\Users\your_user_name\Documents\SpectraCal\CalMA N 5 for Business\LUTs

It will be a ~14MB TXT file the 3D LUT file for eeColor.
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post #2175 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Chad said that he used 0-255 levels from his first post, what do you mean 'in which case he does need to change the patch range'?
No he didn't. Here is his first post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
I am a new LightSpace user having used CalMAN and other programs for years. I wanted to compare CM LUT to LS LUT.

I used CM to make a 2500 point LUT with an eeColor connected to a Sony LED LCD, with very good to excellent results.

I then used LightSpace to make a maximum size (21 on the slider) profile. I used my laptop's Intel HDMI output directly to the TV, and made doubly sure everything was zeroed out which it was since I have been using this laptop HDMI to calibrate Dolby Vision modes with CM.

I replaced the eeColor's default iD LUTs as explained in the LS eeColor documentation.

I exported the LUT. I uploaded the resulting eeColor65 LUT to the eeColor.

I checked video levels, and it was fine.

I then used CM to check the results.

The results were much better than with no LUT, but far worse than CM's LUT. I would not consider it acceptable.

Ted's eeColor page says the LUT must be rescaled, but levels appear correct without having done that. Is that the problem? If so, exactly what is the process? LS documentation is confusing to me here.
I misread the part in bold thinking he was saying that he had set it to video levels for that display afterwards. In that case, there was no need to change the patch range. It's only later that Chad confirmed he was still outputting 0-255 as for his DV calibration.

If he is using PC levels, then as I said in my first reply you were correct and he has to select a different patch range in Lightspace to 16-235 in order to take this into account. I don't understand why I have to explain this to you, given that you made the exact same suggestion, which is why I said that if Chad was indeed using 0-255 then you were correct to suggest this

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post #2176 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 01:23 AM
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I'll happily take this out of the thread if it gets too much ...

I have a Sony VPL-HW55ES projector (1080P SDR Rec 709), with a Lumagen 2020 processor (sources being mainly Oppo 203/HTPC/SkyHD). This was previously 3D LUT calibrated by Gordon to great results. I was advised that a reasonable check on the calibration could be achieved with confirming greyscale was still accurate, and making minor adjustments if required.

A new bulb, and a repair to my Projector - and a check with HCFR (revealing a large "lump" in the gamma for Blue) means I need to take a deeper look. I am curious if this is related to Sony aging issues...? Anyways....

I think the above means it is probably ready for a full on 3d LUT calibration again. I may regret not getting Gordon back, but I have opted for LightSpace (Thanks @ConnecTEDDD ) to have a go myself.

I am also hoping to make use of Image Director export to correct the blue? Is this reasonable?

I know LS indicate their software does not need a workflow, but I like structure and being told what to do

Would the following make sense?

  • Back up - both Lumagen config and Image Director existing gammas
  • Load "NULL Cube" to a CMS Slot in the Lumagen and reset Projector calibration parameters
  • Set Contrast/Brightness with Projector controls
  • Run the Display Profile and Export the new Sony LS feature in image director format
  • Check the "Blue" hump is gone
  • Perform a 2 point greyscale calibration with projector controls
  • Perform another Profile Display and Outut 3D LUT to a spare CMS slot in the Lumagen


Is this the correct way to do this.

Aside:
I am OK with Manual Calibration with HCFR but never done any 3D LUT or calibration work with the Lumagen / LS. I appreciate your help....

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post #2177 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I misread the part in bold thinking he was saying that he had set it to video levels for that display afterwards. In that case, there was no need to change the patch range. It's only later that Chad confirmed he was still outputting 0-255 as for his DV calibration.

If he is using PC levels, then as I said in my first reply you were correct and he has to select a different patch range in Lightspace to 16-235 in order to take this into account. I don't understand why I have to explain this to you, given that you made the exact same suggestion, which is why I said that if Chad was indeed using 0-255 then you were correct to suggest this
When you setup a notebook for DV calibration, its always 0-255, for that reason I told to chad to use Patch scale inside LightSpace, for not changing any setting that may introduce any problem with his DV patch generation.

So since Chad used wrong patch generation for a video level profiling, makes no sense to talk what software provided better results.

When he will compare correct settings (or same patch generator) for that comparison, we will see which performs best.

If you don't understand why you have to explain to me, let me isolate the problem with Chad.

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post #2178 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
When you setup a notebook for DV calibration, its always 0-255, for that reason I told to chad to use Patch scale inside LightSpace, for not changing any setting that may introduce any problem with his DV patch generation.

So since Chad used wrong patch generation for a video level profiling, makes no sense to talk what software provided better results.

When he will compare correct settings (or same patch generator) for that comparison, we will see which performs best.

If you don't understand why you have to explain to me, let me isolate the problem with Chad.
And I agree with all your suggestions, I never said that Chad's comparison was valid. If you take the time to re-read my first post, which you clearly haven't done, I even told him that usually Lightspace was producing good LUTs, which made it clear I was expecting something to be wrong in his setup. I never said that Calman would produce a better result or that his comparison was valid. If I did, please quote me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Hi Chad,

The eecolor might suffer from the same issue as the madVR implementation (it's the same LUT format), which is that you have to apply a video scale filter to every single LUT produced. I also use video levels with madVR, and I have to apply video scale pass black to each LUT generated by LS or it's invalid, given that madVR specs require video level input and Lightspace happily generates invalid LUTs for madVR. Maybe the issue is the same with eecolor?

I'm sure Ted or Steve will pitch in. Unfortunately I don't have first hand experience of the eecolor. Usually LS produces good LUTs (as long as the display isn't undersaturated), but there are often manual steps involved to get them right.

Unlike some here, I'm not biased and I would never say that a 2500 point Calman LUT is necessarily better than a 21 points Lightspace LUT, especially when it looks like there is an issue with the way Lightspace is setup.

In Chad's case, he has to change the patch range in Lightspace to create a new profile using the correct patch scale, and he has to apply afterwards a video scale pass black filter. These are the manual steps I was talking about in my post above.

By the way, this perfectly illustrate my point: unless you and Steve think that someone with Chad's experience also needs to be "educated" about color science, having a simple setting somewhere in the software where we can simply indicate that we are using PC levels or Video Levels, and that would adjust both the patch range and the kind of filter to apply to the LUT automatically would be welcome. Even better if it was saved in a profile for commonly used configurations.

Again, neither he or myself need to be taught about basic color science. We don't want a software that guides us and tells us what we're supposed to do, without understanding why. In fact when we use Calman we design our own workflows and our own layouts, just like you do. We simply want a software that makes it easier and faster to do what we have to do, while limiting the risk of errors.

Of course Chad will be able to get a good result once he has found out what he needs to do to get valid results from Lightspace. That's what I did. But that doesn't make it less of a pain to have to do it again every single time you use the software and every single time you generate a LUT, and it won't take away the risk of error due to forgetting one of these entirely avoidable steps.

That's the point of a well-designed interface. Let the user specify if they use video levels or PC levels, and if they want superwhite or not. And let the software adjust things automatically according to these simple options.

Calman does it, DisplayCAL does it (even in its cube generator, which doesn't have any workflow) and they generate valid LUTs every single time, unlike Lightspace, so I have no idea why Lightspace doesn't have a way to save commonly used settings and prevent invalid choices (such as generating PC Levels LUTs for madVR) to make things faster and easier to the user.

I have no idea why needing simple things like this means that you need to be educated in color science. For madVR, it's a bug. For other LUT boxes, it's a poor interface. It's certainly not a feature and no flexibility need to be taken away.

The patronizing tone from Light Illusion and their representatives in this thread is only equal to the amount of misinformation on the JVCs and the Autocal.

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post #2179 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
The patronizing tone from Light Illusion and their representative in this thread is only equal to the amount of misinformation on the JVCs and the Autocal.
Manni, you are saying the same stuff every day, the only you have done to this thread is to confuse, and with large 1000 words reply to say the same stuff everyday.

LightSpace need people know what they are doing, we don't to make them idiots, all have to understand what they are doing everything and why.

Workflows also you say that we use with CalMAN, have to do for manual cal or to take measurements runs, nothing else.

I'm not going to reply any of you posts, just not mention me again without reason, It's really tired for the whole thread what you are doing every day, and all started when we announced ColorSpace! (you had zero posts in calibration thread of this forums, periodically you were posting, all your focus were to JVC or other thread before ColourSpace announced).

You don't see it, but people I know (which is happen to be some thousands more that you know) are ignoring you already.

I have told you again, use whatever software is better for you, there no problem with that

Here, the only you are doing everyday is to personally attacking Steve and saying every day that he has no field experience etc.
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Originally Posted by wl1 View Post
  • Perform a 2 point greyscale calibration with projector controls
Hopefully someone will pipe up with best practices for the Sony units for you.

Just as a general point, you might be better off using the projector 2 point controls just to correct the 100% white point to D65. That will often give you a more linear base calibration to do your 3DLUT profile on than trying to correct the entire greyscale with the 2 point controls. With a Lumagen it is necessary/advisable to correct 100% white because the final LUT point ends at 235,235,235 and any content that strays into whiter than white territory will take on an off-white hue if the display white point isn't D65.

(this step might not be needed at all after doing the Image Director upload, I have no experience of that).
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post #2181 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Manni, you are saying the same stuff every day, the only you have done to this thread is to confuse, and with large 1000 words reply to say the same stuff everyday.

LightSpace need people know what they are doing, we don't to make them idiots, all have to understand what they are doing everything and why.

Workflows also you say that we use with CalMAN, have to do for manual cal or to take measurements runs, nothing else.

I'm not going to reply any of you posts, just not mention me again without reason, It's really tired for the whole thread what you are doing every day, and all started when we announced ColorSpace! (you had zero posts in calibration thread of this forums, periodically you were posting, all your focus were to JVC or other thread before ColourSpace announced).

You don't see it, but people I know (which is happen to be some thousands more that you know) are ignoring you already.

I have told you again, use whatever software is better for you, there no problem with that

Here, the only you are doing everyday is to personally attacking Steve and saying every day that he has no field experience etc.
Hi Ted,

I have no doubt that many are ignoring my posts, and frankly I don't mind. Remember: I'm the one who suggested it . You should stop quoting me though, because they can't ignore your posts

My initial replies were short, they became longer as you starting attacking me for no reason, as we were in agreement about the patch range.

Light Illusion keeps pretending that unsolved bugs and a poor interface is a feature, and keeps rubbishing the JVCs, the JVC Autocal and any other calibration solution.

I never personally attack Steve, I ask questions to which he doesn't provide any answer.

For example, when Steve rubbished the JVC Autocal because they had implemented a low-res 1D curve instead of the higher resolution of the internal one, I asked him which specific JVC model they had used to test the 1D LUT they released, he never replied. Blaming other products that they don't have sufficient experience with is always the first reaction for Light Illusion, because the software has to be perfect.

If Steve had any significant experience with the JVCs, the way someone like @Chad B , @Kris Deering or myself have, he wouldn't be posting what he posts. If you had any experience with the JVCs or with madVR, you would understand my point of view instead of calling me an idiot, which is what you just did.

Steve is constantly rubbishing the JVCs or the JVC Autocal, in a way that simply proves that he has very limited first hand experience with these. These are facts, not personal attack. This is not a promotion thread, it's a support thread on a forum called AV Science. It's amusing that color science is a must when using the software, but not necessary when criticizing it.

When Light Illusion stops posting misinformation about the JVCs as a way to avoid fixing issues or improving Lightspace, or slagging down the JVC Autocal because they don't like the free competition, I and others won't feel the need to correct these posts.

And yes, you are correct, I started posting here because you asked me to.

Initially, I posted in the Colorspace thread, because I was very annoyed that improvements that I have been waiting for for years (just as you did) in Lightspace would be partially implemented in a new software, that I will have to buy again. Given that there is no improvement in Lightspace regarding madVR support or the handling of undersaturated displays, which is a common occurrence in consumer displays and projectors, I want to know if Light Illusion commits to (and ideally delivers) any improvements in these areas so that by the time Colorspace is released, I know whether I should upgrade or not.

Regarding which software I use, I use Calman, Lightspace, the JVC Autocal and DisplayCAL because I can't use a single one to do everything I need.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to use Lightspace more, because when it works it produces excellent results. I just find its interface poor, especially with madVR, and I say so. As a user of the software, it's my right. I tried to communicate with Steve privately by email for years, that didn't produce any results as far as bug fixes or improvements were concerned. I was always told I was the only one or the first one to experience a problem. When he simply refused to update a single .dll to correct a bug that led to invalid 3D LUTs being generated in madVR, I've decided that I would post publicly whenever I had an issue with the software. That's my way to try to get improvements in a software I've paid for.

Don't quote me unless I post something that's factually wrong and stop posting misinformation about the JVCs, the JVC Autocal and Calman, and I won't make long posts like this one.

If Light Illusion and their representatives stop alienating users who make perfectly valid requests for improvements in the interface, and stop patronizing experienced users who find that the interface could be improved, you'll barely hear from me.

If you don't realise that it's insulting to be told by Light Illusion representatives that you need to understand color science to use the software every single time you request an improvement or a bug fix, then you can't understand why I feel the need to spend time writing these long posts .

Hopefully, everyone will get the misinformation and the patronizing tone under control, and I can spend my time doing more productive and pleasant things than posting here.

Still waiting for new features to be added, and looking forward to testing the corrected 1D LUT for the JVCs when it's been properly beta tested, and not prematurely released.
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post #2182 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 03:08 AM
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Initially, I posted in the Colorspace thread, because I was very annoyed that improvements that I have been waiting for for years (just as you did) in Lightspace would be partially implemented in a new software, that I will have to buy again.
1) You don't have an idea what will be the cost of upgrade of current users, like you.

2) You don't have to buy the whole software if you are already LightSpace user. (Users who bought lightSpace @ 2019 will get free upgrade).

3) You have zero posts to CalMAN thread, have you see what is happening there from user posts talking for the upgrade plans to CalMAN 2019?

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I never personally attack Steve, I ask questions to which he doesn't provide any answer.
The whole thread is laughing on this, check some posts I quickly found:

Steve has mostly demonstrated his lack of knowledge and first-hand experience with the JVCs

contrary to what Steve says (note that he has zero knowledge of the JVCs, their limitations and their capabilities)

I don't think that Steve uses MadVR or or that anyone in house knows the software.

In my experience, Ligthspace customer support always blame the display or the user (sometimes both) as a first port of call.

Quote:
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Don't quote me unless I post something that's factually wrong and stop posting misinformation about the JVCs, the JVC Autocal and Calman, and I won't make long posts like this one.
I haven't posted any misinformation...makes to point continue talking, its not useful for the thread readers or anyone else.

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post #2183 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
1) You don't have an idea what will be the cost of upgrade of current users, like you.

2) You don't have to buy the whole software if you are already LightSpace user. (Users who bought lightSpace @ 2019 will get free upgrade).

3) You have zero posts to CalMAN thread, have you see what is happening there from user posts talking for the upgrade plans to CalMAN 2019?



The whole thread is laughing on this, check some posts I quickly found:

Steve has mostly demonstrated his lack of knowledge and first-hand experience with the JVCs

contrary to what Steve says (note that he has zero knowledge of the JVCs, their limitations and their capabilities)

I don't think that Steve uses MadVR or or that anyone in house knows the software.

In my experience, Ligthspace customer support always blame the display or the user (sometimes both) as a first port of call.


I haven't posted any misinformation...makes to point continue talking, its not useful for the thread readers or anyone else.

Great to know that I'm entertaining the thread

I stand by every single one of these quotes. These are not personal attacks. They are facts. Do you or Steve believe that any of these statements are false in any way?

If you could post anything that demonstrates that Steve has any personal experience of madVR or the JVCs, then these would be personal attacks.

Again, in my discussions with Steve as I reported many issues with madVR over the last few years, he has clearly demonstrated that he had zero first hand experience with it. He doesn't know anything about the software and has clearly never used it. When I reported issues that simply had to be tested to be reproduced, he wasn't even able to run a single LUT to reproduce it (any DCI-P3 LUT uploaded by Lightspace and other calibration software was invalid due to a corrupt header). Instead, he questioned my feedback because "I was the only madVR user to report this". Is it my fault if I'm the only one to identify a bug, report it, get it solved in madVR, and then see Steve refusing to implement the fix by updating a simple .dll in the distribution package? Come on, if the thread should be laughing about something, it's that!

Same thing when I report a problem with levels. Initially, I'm told I'm doing it wrong, or my display is the problem. Finally, we realize that a video scale pass black filter has to be applied to every single LUT because Ligghtspace is generating invalid LUTs for madVR (which specifically requires video levels LUTs). Then Steve updates a vague page on the website instead of fixing the issue and making sure that madVR LUTs are always using video levels.

Believe me, if Steve had any first hand experience with madVR, these issues would never have made it into a release version of the software. They are obvious if you know what you're doing. But clearly other Lightspace users were happy with LUTs with the wrong levels, or were scratching their heads regarding why their DCI-P3 LUTs produced a green picture.

Same with JVCs and the JVC Autocal. Steve is very quick at declaring them unfit for purpose or as having issues with their gamma tables, yet he has very limited first hand experience with them, if any, and the issues are with Lightspace, not with the JVCs or the JVC autocal.

Again, if either of you had any experience with madVR, the JVC projectors or the JVC Autocal software, you wouldn't be posting the misinformed posts that you both keep making.

This doesn't mean that either of you are not extremely experienced and knowledgeable. You both are. Just not in these specific areas. Yet you feel the need to tell others who are experienced in these areas that they are idiots, that they need to be educated in color science, that Lighspace is only for those who know what they are doing.... These are personal attacks

Regarding the upgrade to Colourspace, I have owned Lightspace for a long time (I bought it in 2015 I think) and I was told that the upgrade cost would be proportional to the amount of time the software had been owned. So the longer you've owned it, the more you pay. As I bought it early, I guess I'll pay the most.

A great way to thank early adopters

And yes, if Colourspace had not been prematurely announced when it's not ready and when a price structure can't be shared, maybe I would be less annoyed.

If I had been told that I would get a free upgrade, I certainly wouldn't have minded that much

But as the software was announced in a rush to try to take advantage of the restructure of Calman's offer, then I guess the lack of information caused some issues.

I have no idea why you say that I have zero posts in the Calman thread. I follow it, I post in it, but I'm a Calman Ultimate user, so I am not concerned by the retirement of Enthusiast. Why should I take part in that? I am not telling those who are complaining that they are wrong though. I only correct misinformation in that thread like in this one, not legitimate user questions and frustrations. I occasionally called Tyler out when Spectracal for example was not bringing any solution re BT2390 for projector owners, while Lightspace, DisplayCAL and HCFR were far ahead. But for some reason, you chose to ignore these.

Also, as I said many times, I have not renewed my Calman Ultimate license this year because I'm unhappy with the number of outstanding issues in the software. How can I be clearer than that? I'm waiting to see if Calman 2019 offers enough improvements to decide whether I renew or stay with my existing version, which works fine for what I use it for (pre/post cal measurements and Lightning LUTs for madVR). Unlike Light Illusion who remained silent and are not committing to any improvement, I was told that the outstanding issues I raised are being looked at and will be resolved. So I'm waiting to see if it's the case or not.

So yes, I'm here because I'll have to decide soon in which software I'm going to invest more money in, Colorspace upgrade or Calman Ultimate maintenance renewal. Do you have a problem with this?

And why are you still quoting me? I thought we had agreed, for the benefit of the thread, to stop quoting each other unless it was absolutely necessary? So I suggest we let it go, that Light Illusion representatives stop posting misinformation and to patronize users when they make a valid request for improvement, so that we can avoid these long posts. I don't enjoy writing them more than you enjoy reading them
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Steve, I'm not asking for workflows, I'm asking for Lightspace to generate valid LUTs for madVR, like other software do.

MadVR asks for video levels LUTs. PC Level LUTs are invalid. Full stop. It's in the specs. Lightspace is happily generating invalid LUTs for madVR, and you ask the user to manually correct for this........

I share everything Manni said,
and I add, if I use Lighspace, I want the possibility to see the Gamma values, even in real time, instead of creating a PDF file every time. To do this, I have to use the free HCFR software every time.

Anyway,
about the video levels, I with madVR, I think I use the same Manni settings: madVR: 16-235 --- GPU: 0-255 (Full RGB) --- Projector: 16-235.
With these settings, how should I set up the madVR pattern generator, in Video Levels?
If instead I use Ted's disc, do I have to set something in particular in Lightspace?


Thanks
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post #2185 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Icaro View Post
I share everything Manni said,
and I add, if I use Lighspace, I want the possibility to see the Gamma values, even in real time, instead of creating a PDF file every time. To do this, I have to use the free HCFR software every time.

Anyway,
about the video levels, I with madVR, I think I use the same Manni settings: madVR: 16-235 --- GPU: 0-255 (Full RGB) --- Projector: 16-235.
With these settings, how should I set up the madVR pattern generator, in Video Levels?
If instead I use Ted's disc, do I have to set something in particular in Lightspace?


Thanks
Hi Icaro,

Yes with these settings madVR should be sending video levels patterns, so there is no need to change the patch scale, but you need to apply a video scale pass black filter to every single LUT generated by Lightpace fo madVR, otherwise they are invalid as Lightspace doesn't follow the madVR specs.

Also if you have a JVC projector, make sure that you enable the "report BT2020" option in the calibration tab in madVR if you're using 12bits and are generating a SDR WCG LUT (P3 preferably to minimize posterization). If you don't do this, the JVCs will not use the right colorspace and the LUT will have to do a lot more correction than necessary because saturations don't track in a linear way. If you enable "report BT2020", you should get a much more linear baseline and you might get away with a smaller LUT, possibly even a Lightning sized LUT as I do at the moment (you can use the equivalent of a Lightning LUT in Lightspace). There is no such issue if you use RGB 8bits,

Also there is a colorspace bug with the JVCs in 12bits, if you select RGB 12bits or YCC444 12bits, the JVCs accept it but force YCC422 internally, which leads to an unwanted chroma down/upscaling and getting the wrong levels if you use 16-235 in the JVC, as YCC requires 0-255.

For these reasons, I recommend using RGB 8bits with the JVCs (it won't cause banding, even with 10bits HDR content, if you also set the dither option to 8bits in madVR) so you can make the most of madVR's excellent upscaling and get 444 for games and desktop use if necessary, or YCC422 12bits with a standalone source such as a UHD BD player. YCC444 12 bits will cause this chroma up/downscaling, so with video content YCC422 is the best option until JVC fix the issue (I and others have reported it and they are working on a fix, at least as far as the new 4K models are concerned).

JVC Autocal Software V11 Calibration for 2019 Models (Google)
Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders

Last edited by Manni01; 04-04-2019 at 04:21 AM.
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post #2186 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by wl1 View Post
A new bulb, and a repair to my Projector - and a check with HCFR (revealing a large "lump" in the gamma for Blue) means I need to take a deeper look. I am curious if this is related to Sony aging issues...? Anyways....

Would the following make sense?

Back up - both Lumagen config and Image Director existing gammas
  • Load "NULL Cube" to a CMS Slot in the Lumagen and reset Projector calibration parameters
  • Set Contrast/Brightness with Projector controls
  • Run the Display Profile and Export the new Sony LS feature in image director format
  • Check the "Blue" hump is gone
  • Perform a 2 point greyscale calibration with projector controls
  • Perform another Profile Display and Outut 3D LUT to a spare CMS slot in the Lumagen
Hi, If I had your setup, then I should:

(If you want as example 48 nits calibrated at the end...)

1) Generate from LightSpace and upload a UNITY Sony table using ImageDirector to your Sony Internally. (if you license level don't allow to click ''file->new'', then use that UNITY)

2) Upload UNITY to Lumagen also 1D/3D), set output as YCbCr 4:2:2 12bit.

2) Measure the grayscale and check then with Contrast/Brightness patterns (not the ones Lumagen generate, but use Contrast/Brightness patterns from your source, check a color clipping patterns also).

3) Use lens aperture and RGB gain controls while you will display a 100% White patch using Calibration Interface, to get 48-50 nits calibrated while you will reduce RGB gains values, keeping one colorchannel at zero and reducing the other 2.

(Measure the available color temp with simple grayscale measurements and choose the one that you see it has less RGB balance errors, then do the same with gamma presets, select the one that it a bit brighter from your target (primary) gamma preset...for example if your main target is 2.4 gamma, select one preset that you see the lines in diff gamma chart to be over the black line, or press the Show data to see the average gamma of each grayscale run, 2.3 - 2.35 will be fine.

When you will finish this, you will have 48-50 nits calibrated, so this define your required peak output target. So now restore back the RGB-Gain controls to zero....we will let the internal LUT of Sony to apply the RGB balance/gamma calibration.

4) Measure with LightSpace and Grayscale Large (which will take 33-Point Grayscale) and generate a colorspace conversion, then upload it via Sony ImageDirector and measure with Grayscale Large. (check a grayscale ramp to see that gradation is fine)

5) Measure with Grayscale Large as verification, if you see that there space for improvement, then use that new GS data as Aug data, adding the new GS data to the first GS data, in the ColorSpace Manager window, so the first GS profile will become profile+ ... then using that new file, convert a new colorspace correction (tick Aug radio button), export and upload a new 1D LUT.

Then verify with measurements that you see improvement over the first 1D LUT you uploaded. (check a grayscale ramp pattern also)

6) Check contrast/brightness again, to see if the uploaded 1D LUT was OK.

7) Move to display characterization, and when you will generate the colorspace conversion, upload it to your Lumagen.

8) Verify the post results, using Lumagen.
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post #2187 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by wl1 View Post
I'll happily take this out of the thread if it gets too much ...
Edit: Ah, I see Ted beat me while I was typing. He is the best; listen to him!
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Last edited by jqmn; 04-04-2019 at 05:13 AM.
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post #2188 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 05:14 AM
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I am also hoping to make use of Image Director export to correct the blue? Is this reasonable?
You can use more patches (more than the 33p the GrayScale Large contain) as John suggesting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jqmn View Post
I built a minimum file that contains the 100 grayscale patches Ted refers to and then use that as the basis for an Image Director export. I don't know how many of these reads LS actually uses to build this file but it has really helped improve low-black separation from what I could do manually. I am really impressed with how much easier this has made things.
(creating a custom CVS file and import it as patch set)

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V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #2189 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Icaro View Post
and I add, if I use Lighspace, I want the possibility to see the Gamma values, even in real time, instead of creating a PDF file every time. To do this, I have to use the free HCFR software every time.
Hi,

The gamma value is what you see when you are looking the DifGamma chart: https://www.lightillusion.com/profil...splay_difgamma

(You can see the gamma value for each point, as it is shows relative to the target color space gamma value.)

As for real-time, that is not something LightSpace will ever do as you cannot have a gamma value for one point you calibrate.

But, you can see target Y vs. measured Y to see the deviation.

But, with ColourSpace, the ability to click a point in the Gamma graphs should then show the gamma value, after a profile has been completed.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #2190 of 2368 Old 04-04-2019, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
If you could post anything that demonstrates that Steve has any personal experience of madVR or the JVCs, then these would be personal attacks.
Using your data Steve found the problems, we trust your measurements.

This specific gamut problem its a device issue, not only to the specific model you have only... but there a lot of other JVC model which are suffering from the same problem.

You have an American JVC projector in Europe, so seems that you have some serious contacts in USA, but you opened as I saw a new thread about that projector AutoCAL to another forum, not in AVSForum, something you where doing at past year models. (while AVSForum is the most popular forum in the world)

Thinking about the above, I find impossible to accept from your side that there isn't any fault being JVC's part and always it will be a LightSpace (or other software) problem.

The same problems you have find with CalMAN also, for that reason Lightning LUT provide you better results (since it has zero volumetric info...where the issues are starting when you generating volumetric correction, with lower saturation boost).

Anyway, LightSpace is working on solutions for such problematic devices gamut's, so stay tuned...
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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5

Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 04-04-2019 at 05:56 AM.
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