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post #5131 of 5229 Old 04-27-2019, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraza View Post
My question - Can I use a emulator like the Atlona Etude Sync Emulator (https://atlona.com/product/at-etu-sync/) to fake HDR for my projector or is an HTCP with MadVR my only option. I'm trying to avoid the HTPC if possible.
I don't know this Atlona device, so someone else who owns it needs to chime in. My 5 cents: madVR will likely have much higher HDR to SDR quality (imho) than most if not all of these existing HDR to SDR video processors, especially with the changes in the latest test builds (see latest posts in the Improving madVR HDR to SDR for projector thread). Also, see this: madVR ENVY - madVR HDR to SDR tonemapping will become available standalone, no HTPC needed.

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Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
is it possible to have the ICC profile work while madvr is active and using the 3DLUT?
Actually, yes, if you have hardware that supports it (nVidia only afaik): Enable windowed overlay in madVR renderig options (disable D3D11).

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Last edited by fhoech; 04-27-2019 at 05:49 AM.
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post #5132 of 5229 Old 04-27-2019, 07:00 AM
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I got that enabled in madVR, and i got an Nvidia GPU, it seems to be disabled anyway sadly.
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post #5133 of 5229 Old 04-27-2019, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
I got that enabled in madVR, and i got an Nvidia GPU, it seems to be disabled anyway sadly.
Okay don't know how to edit..

But it works somewhat, forgot to disable D3D11.
It seems to end up being processed twice though, the ICC + the 3DLUT.
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post #5134 of 5229 Old 04-27-2019, 08:16 AM
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Fhoech,

Thank you so much for your response. I went ahead and signed up for the MadVr ENVY notification. From what your saying and if I understand what MadVR can do for me is to convert HDR to SDR so my older non HDR projector can handle the input. Is this correct because I notice within my Panasonic DP-UB820 Ultra HD player there is a menu option to convert HDR to SDR, should I use that.

Thank you

Andre

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhoech View Post
I don't know this Atlona device, so someone else who owns it needs to chime in. My 5 cents: madVR will likely have much higher HDR to SDR quality (imho) than most if not all of these existing HDR to SDR video processors, especially with the changes in the latest test builds (see latest posts in the Improving madVR HDR to SDR for projector thread). Also, see this: madVR ENVY - madVR HDR to SDR tonemapping will become available standalone, no HTPC needed.


Actually, yes, if you have hardware that supports it (nVidia only afaik): Enable windowed overlay in madVR renderig options (disable D3D11).
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post #5135 of 5229 Old 04-28-2019, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
It seems to end up being processed twice though, the ICC + the 3DLUT.
Nope, overlay is not subject to graphics card videoLUT.

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Originally Posted by Fraza View Post
From what your saying and if I understand what MadVR can do for me is to convert HDR to SDR so my older non HDR projector can handle the input.
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Fraza View Post
I notice within my Panasonic DP-UB820 Ultra HD player there is a menu option to convert HDR to SDR, should I use that.
Use either-or, not both. Even not knowing the Panasonic's internal HDR to SDR processing, I'm pretty positive that madVR will offer better quality though.

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post #5136 of 5229 Old 04-28-2019, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraza View Post
Fhoech,
... I notice within my Panasonic DP-UB820 Ultra HD player there is a menu option to convert HDR to SDR, should I use that.



madVR will do HDR to SDR excpetionally better than the Panasonic UB820!


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post #5137 of 5229 Old 04-28-2019, 09:37 AM
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Okay it's not doing anything twice, it's always just super bright for some reason, no matter what settings i use (with windowed overlay that is),
odd, not sure what i might be missing.
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post #5138 of 5229 Old 05-08-2019, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Thanks, that's confirming that madvr is the problem. Yesterday evening I created another 3dlut with latest stable (0.9.17) without any issues.
Well, it isn't: upgraded to latest DisplayCal and ArgyllCMS 2.1.1 x64 2 days ago using madvr 0.9.17 and had 2 crashes straight in a row (no logs). Yesterday I'd overwritten ArgyllCMS 2.1.1 x64 with x32 version and I managed to go through the 3dlut process.

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post #5139 of 5229 Old 05-13-2019, 04:23 AM
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I created a 3dlut (madvr bt.709 profile dcip3 d65) with Displaycal 3.8 and ArgyllCMS 2.1.1 for OledTV and I wanted to generate a new one with different black output offset.
But when I untick tge Create 3dlut after profiling then the Black output offaet option is not available along with realive/absolute dropdown.
Is it intentional or a bug? If it is then can we get back this feature?
Thanks

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post #5140 of 5229 Old 05-13-2019, 08:05 AM
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just use the 3D LUT maker for that task but your option should be under custom.
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post #5141 of 5229 Old 05-14-2019, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
just use the 3D LUT maker for that task but your option should be under custom.
Which 3dlut maker? In displaycal? (Advanced settings are enabled in displaycal.)

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post #5142 of 5229 Old 05-14-2019, 02:03 AM
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it's installed with displaycal the file is called DisplayCAL-3DLUT-maker.exe
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post #5143 of 5229 Old 05-14-2019, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
it's installed with displaycal the file is called DisplayCAL-3DLUT-maker.exe
Thanks, found it, I didn't even know it existed. But the result is the same: black output offset is greyed out.

Ohhhh, or is it because of 0 black???
If so, HCFR has a Black Override option, can't that be implemented? I remember talking about this 3 years ago Although I'm not sure how hard it would be or even it's possible.
The use case: I created a 2.2 gamma for day usage. But on a sunny day 17-20 (black clipping pattern) is not visible due to the bright environment. Currently the only option is to select a lower gamma that raises the overall brightness of the picture.
Thanks for considering it, @fhoech !

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post #5144 of 5229 Old 05-14-2019, 08:31 PM
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Can someone advise as to the best way to run madTPG on Windows 10 for HDR calibration (I'm using CalMAN Home), to obtain TV settings suitable for use with a (HW) Bluray player? My Nvidia card doesn't allow the desktop to be configured for 10-bit RGB or 10-bit YCbCr 4:4:4. Should I configure the desktop for 2160p24 12-bit RGB or 12-bit YCbCr 4:4:4, or 2160p60 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:2, or something else? I gather I should run madTPG in automatic fullscreen exclusive mode, yes? Should I enable HDR and WCG in Windows for the desktop, or will madTPG control that itself and I should leave it disabled for the desktop? Any advice welcome.
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post #5145 of 5229 Old 05-15-2019, 12:14 AM
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Couple of questions before we can help you:
- what's your display device
- do you want to use hdr passthrough or something different
- what's your gpu and which driver version do you use

You can see mine in my signature.

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post #5146 of 5229 Old 05-15-2019, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Couple of questions before we can help you:
- what's your display device
- do you want to use hdr passthrough or something different
- what's your gpu and which driver version do you use
Samsung 75" Q90R, EVGA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti FTW3 Ultra Gaming, driver 430.64. Running CalMAN on a separate laptop, SpectraCal C6 HDR2000 meter. I don't understand the question about HDR passthrough; I'm interested in whatever configuration will give me the best calibration accuracy for use with the target source device, a Samsung UBD-M9500.

Last edited by thoth; 05-15-2019 at 07:39 AM. Reason: clarification
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post #5147 of 5229 Old 05-15-2019, 09:18 AM
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My Nvidia card doesn't allow the desktop to be configured for 10-bit RGB or 10-bit YCbCr 4:4:4. Should I configure the desktop for 2160p24 12-bit RGB or 12-bit YCbCr 4:4:4, or 2160p60 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:2, or something else?
HDMI 2.0 doesn't allow 4k RBG (Full) 4:4:4 10bit at 60Hz. If you set the 4k desktop to e.g. 24Hz then 10bit should work.
I asked your card and driver version, because older Pascal cards (like mine) can still use the v385.28 driver which can auto-fallback to 8bit at 60Hz and back to 10bit at 24Hz. I'm not sure about the new drivers.

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I gather I should run madTPG in automatic fullscreen exclusive mode, yes?
It depends on your card/driver/OS you use, you have to try it. I use windowed mode on Win10 1607 LTSB.

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Should I enable HDR and WCG in Windows for the desktop, or will madTPG control that itself and I should leave it disabled for the desktop?
madvr and madTPG should handle this automatically, it can also depend on the settings in Calman Home (note that I have never used it, since it's not free).

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Samsung 75" Q90R, EVGA GeForce RTX 2080 Ti FTW3 Ultra Gaming, driver 430.64. Running CalMAN on a separate laptop, SpectraCal C6 HDR2000 meter. I don't understand the question about HDR passthrough; I'm interested in whatever configuration will give me the best calibration accuracy for use with the target source device, a Samsung UBD-M9500.
Yes, you use passthrough. I asked about it because Calman Home for Samsung maybe supports your new TV with Samsung Calibration Workflow, so that's the workflow you should choose.

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post #5148 of 5229 Old 05-15-2019, 09:35 AM
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HDMI 2.0 doesn't allow 4k RBG (Full) 4:4:4 10bit at 60Hz. If you set the 4k desktop to e.g. 24Hz then 10bit should work.
I understand the bandwidth constraint. Sadly, even at 24Hz, the Nvidia control panel only offers 8-bit and 12-bit, for both RGB and YCbCr 4:4:4; it doesn't offer 10-bit. (I've seen some claims that it's an artificial software lockout, that they only enable 10-bit for their Quadro cards.) Given that, how should I configure the desktop? 12-bit RGB, 12-bit YCbCr 4:4:4, or 10-bit YCbCr 4:2:2?
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post #5149 of 5229 Old 05-15-2019, 10:19 AM
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Oh, sorry, you are right. I use 12bit RGB full with PC mode, but that result banding. So you have to try out different modes and chose the one that gives you the less compromise.

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post #5150 of 5229 Old 06-15-2019, 01:13 AM
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I have a new projector (jvc n7) so have been attempting to add a 3d lut for HDR content tone mapped by madvr.

As I understand it, the recommended way to do this is target DCI-P3 and send that in a BT2020 container to the JVC. However this results in significant errors at the verification stage (i.e. colours do not track the target at all) which says I have something setup incorrectly. A rec709 SDR lut created during the same measurement session works exactly as expected.

Unfortunately (for me) there are 3 pieces in here that I'm not 100% sure about (displaycal, madvr, the projector) so I thought I'd start with the measurement app.

Here's some pics to illustrate. Can anyone confirm if this is the correct way to setup displaycal for this job?

3d lut settings



verification settings



resulting errors


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post #5151 of 5229 Old 06-15-2019, 01:23 AM
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I'm not sure why the Rendering intent is set to Relative and not Absolute with white point scaling. Have you checked the White point as measured on the Calibration tab?

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post #5152 of 5229 Old 06-15-2019, 01:30 AM
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I'm not sure why the Rendering intent is set to Relative and not Absolute with white point scaling. Have you checked the White point as measured on the Calibration tab?
I'm not sure either, will correct and try again. Thanks.
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post #5153 of 5229 Old 06-15-2019, 12:41 PM
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I repeated and the above change fixed the gamma tracking but the colour is still off, I used a larger verification set and you can see it looks like it is stretched out

it looks like it measures v consistently with each point further out than it should be, you can this most clearly in that red line which has points further out than expect until it hits the outer limits and hence essentially looks like it is clipping

I assume this indicates a DCI-P3 vs BT.2020 problem, is the behaviour that it's actually rendering BT.2020 but the measurement expects the relevant point to be in DCI-P3 space?

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post #5154 of 5229 Old 06-15-2019, 10:46 PM
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Hello everyone,

Newbie here, both to the forums and to DIY calibration
I'm slowly making my way through this thread going backwards... doubt I'll have the time (and patience!) to read through all 5k posts, though.
Thought I'd give a few details about my setup and intentions, maybe someone will be kind enough to offer some pointers?
Many thanks in advance!

- Desktop PC (W10 1903) with 1080ti (drivers 430.53) connected to a FZ800 OLED (it's Panasonic's 2018 series), i1D3 meter (retail version, bought new the other day)
- MPC-BE + madVR: GPU is configured with RGB full (12bit), madVR full (10bit), TV full levels (4K PureDirect on)


I'm looking to generate 3D LUTs with DisplayCAL for both SDR and HDR (passthrough mode, not converting to SDR - but ideally it would be good if madVR tonemapped everything above 750nits).


Trouble is DisplayCAL has a lot of options available under "3D LUT" and I don't know whether I should go with its default madVR presets or if I should be adjusting them in any way?

There is one other thing to consider:
Panasonic have implemented Dynamic LUTs which makes standard clipping pluge patterns unusable - first 3 levels of black and last 3 levels of white are clipped on patterns. Major gamma adjustments for low/high IREs would be needed to avoid clipping with the patterns and this will mess up the rendering of regular content.
It's possible LG and/or Sony OLEDs do something similar, but I'm not familiar with their TVs.

Now... I don't really know if this feature of the FZ will have a negative impact on DisplayCALs readings for the 3D LUTs and, if yes, how might I work around it?

Last edited by cezarL; 06-15-2019 at 11:42 PM.
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post #5155 of 5229 Old 06-16-2019, 09:00 AM
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https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/to...4-gamma-3dlut/ sounds like the same situation as me

tl;dr seems to be that you have to create your own test chart that restricts it to DCI-P3 colourspace

however if that is the case then I don't underwhat what the DCI-P3/SMPTE-431-2 D65 simulation profile is

I think @Manni01 uses displaycal for this purpose so perhaps he might be able to comment on how he verifies a LUT intended for use with madvr tonemapping? manually perhaps?
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post #5156 of 5229 Old 06-16-2019, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/to...4-gamma-3dlut/ sounds like the same situation as me

tl;dr seems to be that you have to create your own test chart that restricts it to DCI-P3 colourspace

however if that is the case then I don't underwhat what the DCI-P3/SMPTE-431-2 D65 simulation profile is

I think @Manni01 uses displaycal for this purpose so perhaps he might be able to comment on how he verifies a LUT intended for use with madvr tonemapping? manually perhaps?
Sorry, I use Calman to verify my madVR 3D LUT...

It is indeed a good idea to restrict the colorspace to DCI-P3, not only to verify but also to calibrate. It's very easy to create posterization (usually on red or cyan here, depending on the software). DisplayCAL seems to behave better than other software in this area. Anyway, I use a target of DCI-P3 (D65) both to generate the LUT and to verify it.
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post #5157 of 5229 Old 06-16-2019, 10:47 AM
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Thanks for the info. This does seem to be what I am doing but the results come out way off in the verification chart. It doesn't look visibly way off in uhd film content though.

I wonder if this is a madvr config issue? Does the usual madvr config apply to madtpg or is it completely under the control of displaycal/argyllcms so your normal config is disregarded? I guess the former except for the 3dlut, will have to check once back in front of the pj.

edit: madvr config does apply but this does not appear as hdr (according to madvr profile rules) so it was hitting an SDR profile config which means it is not sending the bt.2020 flag to the projector (JVC n7). I guess this might cause the problem? Will remeasure later.

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post #5158 of 5229 Old 06-16-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Thanks for the info. This does seem to be what I am doing but the results come out way off in the verification chart. It doesn't look visibly way off in uhd film content though.

I wonder if this is a madvr config issue? Does the usual madvr config apply to madtpg or is it completely under the control of displaycal/argyllcms so your normal config is disregarded? I guess the former except for the 3dlut, will have to check once back in front of the pj.

edit: madvr config does apply but this does not appear as hdr (according to madvr profile rules) so it was hitting an SDR profile config which means it is not sending the bt.2020 flag to the projector (JVC n7). I guess this might cause the problem? Will remeasure later.
1) I only calibrate SDR, so SDR DCI-P3 D65 Gamma 2.2 for the calibration used for HDR>SDR with pixel shader
2) There is a bug in the JVCs, in 12bits you need to enable the BT2020 flag (even in SDR) or the colorspace isn't correct. In 8bits that's not necessary.
3) I always use SDR patterns for calibration and verification. I leave it entirely to madVR to do the HDR > SDR conversion right. As long as my calibration measures fine in SDR DCI-P3 D65 Gamma 2.2, madVR is fine when converting HDR content.
4) As far as Calman is concerned, I'm calibrating and verifying SDR DCI-P3 D65 gamma 2.2. It has no idea that HDR is involved later.
5) This is with Win 10 Pro x64 build 1809 nVidia 1080ti 385.28. Anything else I have no idea, too many bugs / differences etc.
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JVC Autocal Software V12 Calibration for 2019 Models (Google)
Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
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post #5159 of 5229 Old 06-16-2019, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
1) I only calibrate SDR, so SDR DCI-P3 D65 Gamma 2.2 for the calibration used for HDR>SDR with pixel shader
2) There is a bug in the JVCs, in 12bits you need to enable the BT2020 flag (even in SDR) or the colorspace isn't correct. In 8bits that's not necessary.
3) I always use SDR patterns for calibration and verification. I leave it entirely to madVR to do the HDR > SDR conversion right. As long as my calibration measures fine in SDR DCI-P3 D65 Gamma 2.2, madVR is fine when converting HDR content.
4) As far as Calman is concerned, I'm calibrating and verifying SDR DCI-P3 D65 gamma 2.2. It has no idea that HDR is involved later.
well as far as I can tell, this is what I'm doing. The JVC is in a BT.2020 colour profile, madvr is set to tonemap to SDR and displaycal is set with a source colourspace of DCI-P3 D65 with a 2.2 gamma. I guess I'll need to verify some other way to be able to tell whether I'm doing it wrong or not.
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post #5160 of 5229 Old 06-16-2019, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
well as far as I can tell, this is what I'm doing. The JVC is in a BT.2020 colour profile, madvr is set to tonemap to SDR and displaycal is set with a source colourspace of DCI-P3 D65 with a 2.2 gamma. I guess I'll need to verify some other way to be able to tell whether I'm doing it wrong or not.
You don't want the JVC to be in a BT2020 color profile. You want to select a DCI-P3 color profile.

A BT2020 color profile will give you huge errors outside of DCI-P3. There is no advantage selecting such a wider gamut with madVR. It only increases errors during verification (unless you measure DCI-P3 within BT2020) and often causes posterization issues.

JVC Autocal Software V12 Calibration for 2019 Models (Google)
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