JETI Specbos Software Update - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger.miki View Post
AFAIK in CalMAN you can insert manually the whole FCCM, not singular readings of reference/target meter.
What is FCCM ? and how to do that ?

Thanks.
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post #62 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 01:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Yep, I went into the CM meter setup, selected Sync On then typed in 60hz (I was taking a reading from my PC monitor), didn't initialize the meter and it worked!
See attached image. Thanks!
You can just select from Meter Mode (Target Display Type): Sync @ 60 Hz, its quicker action.
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post #63 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 01:35 AM
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I don't how others do it, but for the JETI I use a measuring laser to find the distance to the TV.


The Bosch GLM20 can measure up to 65 feet


I place two devices on a 10" camera accessory bar; one on each end. When both show the same reading, I know the bar (and JETI) are perpendicular to the TV screen


I clamp them in with these little adapters


I place the JETI on the bar, inbetween the measuring lasers


When the two laser beams bounce of the screen and strike the front of the Bosch devices I know I have the right angle and pitch. Then all I do is place the meter at the distance that I want and adjust the height of the tripod.

And the whole thing sits on a small slider for smooth panning
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post #64 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rachmat-d View Post
Is it Possible to manually input the reference meter from jeti into calman enthusiast, for meter profile ?
Hi, you can do the following to create a meter correction table for CalMAN:

1) Open LightSpace DPS or HCFR or JETI LiVal (or ChromaPure...if you have ChromaPure Professional license level).....to operate JETI instrument from there, take WRGB patch readings, note the xyY readings per patch.

2) Open CalMAN read the same WRGB patches using your colorimeter and note the xyY readings per patch.

Important Notice: The pattern source has to be exact the same per each software, same RGB Triplet and same patch size. You can use my calibration disk for example where it has chapter for meter profiling:



For external patch generation users of CalMAN, they can open CalMAN and load the Ted's Meter Profile Check verification page:



...connecting their external generator and the colorimeter, and by just clicking each of the 4 patches from CalMAN Slider, CalMAN will send these patterns to generator, where the user can measure them with JETI using other software.

To the bottom left are of the workflow, there is a data0grid with the WRGB xyY data numbers, you can copy-paste that data quickly to CalMAN's Four Color Matrix Tool, using right mouse click etc.

3) Locate CalMAN Folder in your Start Menu and run the Four Color Matrix Tool utility:



Then copy-paste the WRGB xyY of JETI @ Reference Meter Data and WRGB xyY of Colorimeter you have @ Target Meter Data... the utility will generate a 3x3 XYZ matrix to enter these values manually from inside CalMAN later.

4) After having that 3x3 XYZ matrix data, use CalMAN, click to create a new meter profile:



Double click to any XYZ tab and copy-paste the 3x3 XYZ numbers that Four Color Matrix tool generated.

Doing all the above, you will have create a Four Color Matrix Correction table, operating the reference meter outside of CalMAN (when you don't have license level to operate a high-end spectro from inside your CalMAN).
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post #65 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, you can do the following to create a meter correction table for CalMAN:

1) Open LightSpace DPS or HCFR or JETI LiVal (or ChromaPure...if you have ChromaPure Professional license level).....to operate JETI instrument from there, take WRGB patch readings, note the xyY readings per patch.

2) Open CalMAN read the same WRGB patches using your colorimeter and note the xyY readings per patch.

Important Notice: The pattern source has to be exact the same per each software, same RGB Triplet and same patch size. You can use my calibration disk for example where it has chapter for meter profiling:



For external patch generation users of CalMAN, they can open CalMAN and load the Ted's Meter Profile Check verification page:



...connecting their external generator and the colorimeter, and by just clicking each of the 4 patches from CalMAN Slider, CalMAN will send these patterns to generator, where the user can measure them with JETI using other software.

To the bottom left are of the workflow, there is a data0grid with the WRGB xyY data numbers, you can copy-paste that data quickly to CalMAN's Four Color Matrix Tool, using right mouse click etc.

3) Locate CalMAN Folder in your Start Menu and run the Four Color Matrix Tool utility:



Then copy-paste the WRGB xyY of JETI @ Reference Meter Data and WRGB xyY of Colorimeter you have @ Target Meter Data... the utility will generate a 3x3 XYZ matrix to enter these values manually from inside CalMAN later.

4) After having that 3x3 XYZ matrix data, use CalMAN, click to create a new meter profile:



Double click to any XYZ tab and copy-paste the 3x3 XYZ numbers that Four Color Matrix tool generated.

Doing all the above, you will have create a Four Color Matrix Correction table, operating the reference meter outside of CalMAN (when you don't have license level to operate a high-end spectro from inside your CalMAN).
Thx TED,

You are the best.

I still have some question ?
In Lightspace the data only have x y ( don’t have Y )
In Chromapure almost the same , only white that have Y ,
What should I do ?

And when I already have the number, can I have the meter verication with your workflow , as I can not measure
The reference meter ?

Thanks.
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post #66 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
You can just select from Meter Mode (Target Display Type): Sync @ 60 Hz, its quicker action.
Ted, I hear what you are saying but I don't see that in the meter target Display Type pulldown. I see All display types, Luminance without diffuser, with diffuser then several custom profiles. Maybe there is a way to set the custom profile the way you are indicating?

John
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post #67 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 07:04 AM
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@PReSS 2play I like your setup but I don't understand how you mount/clamp the Bosh. The rail has the screw to mount the Jeti, that I got. Can you explain a little more?

John
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post #68 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 09:45 AM
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I tried putting the Jeti on a tripod back 5ft 6in because that's as far back as I could put it since my couch is at that point. Klein was in contact mode with the hood 48mm.

Trying different things, I found setting the TV to 100 nits gave the best results, especially for Red "Y" which is always hard to get a match. I also tried using the stray light tube distance and although the readings were OK, as everyone suggested, getting the FOV correct produced the best results. See below and let me know what you think. This was on my 55A9F OLED.

I profiled using the CM profiler and used single pass. I tried to get the Jeti looking as close to the Klein as i could. There is always a trade off with the OLED. Single pass, both meters are taking simultaneous readings or multi-pass where the panel is at a slightly different temperature as you change meters. I know nothing is 100% but for me i need something quick and as accurate as i can get.
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post #69 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
@PReSS 2play I like your setup but I don't understand how you mount/clamp the Bosh. The rail has the screw to mount the Jeti, that I got. Can you explain a little more?
It's the Desmond Quick Release Clamp. (It attaches to the rail with a screw that comes with it.) You just place the laser device inside and turn the knob to hold it in place. It has a scale to help you align the laser. The clamp is very good quality and only $15.00 at B&H Photo Shop (if they still have them). Don't squeeze the laser too hard with the clamp or you may damage the case.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...mp.html?sts=pi

The slider is the edelkroneOne. This device will make it easier to center the meter without having to move the entire tripod. I highly recommend it.

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post #70 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 10:49 AM
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John, you can always just use one measuring laser device to measure the distance to the display. I use two, for inclination and axis.
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post #71 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rachmat-d View Post
Thx TED,

You are the best.

I still have some question ?
In Lightspace the data only have x y ( don’t have Y )
In Chromapure almost the same , only white that have Y ,
What should I do ?

And when I already have the number, can I have the meter verication with your workflow , as I can not measure
The reference meter ?

Thanks.
About LightSpace, when you look the Calibration Interface screen, if you have previously clicked to all colors 'Update' -> 'Measure', its visible to that window only the xy of WRGB, but the software internally has kept the Y additionally.



To see the complete data of xyY, you just select and export the meter profile data to your desktop; you will see a xxxxxxx.bpd file; if you open that file with Notepad of Windows, you will see inside the complete xyY per patch:



L = cdm2 = nits

If you like to import WRGB xyY from other software inside LigtSpace, you can modify that file and then import it again to LightSpace... to use the data as reference meter for example.

(But the measured patches have to be the same between meters)

About ChromaPure..... if you have a reference meter, you can use the Raw Calibration Data and measure there the xyY.




If you have an enhanced i1Display PRO for ChromaPure only, you can select the 'special' table you like and then use that Raw Calibration Data with that special table as active, then use that data as reference. In that case it for using an enhanced colorimeter that works to one software only to another software.

About your question of verifing from Ted's workflow a custom reference meter data, this is not possible because CalMAN don't allow import of external data to a workflow, so you cant import xyY data manually to the workflow.
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post #72 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Ted, I hear what you are saying but I don't see that in the meter target Display Type pulldown. I see All display types, Luminance without diffuser, with diffuser then several custom profiles. Maybe there is a way to set the custom profile the way you are indicating?
With JETI 1211, there were available different options as ready presets for 60/120/240Hz and another Hz. Maybe with JETI 1501 they are not available.
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post #73 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
With JETI 1211, there were available different options as ready presets for 60/120/240Hz and another Hz. Maybe with JETI 1501 they are not available.
That must be it because I can't find it anywhere. But manually setting it works fine just a couple extra steps, no worries, thanks!

Also, is this profile any good? I did what you said and moved the Jeti back 5ft 6 inches.

John
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post #74 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
John, you can always just use one measuring laser device to measure the distance to the display. I use two, for inclination and axis.
Some TVs lean a bit and that's okay, but two-laser method won't work on curved screens or TVs with pronounce tilt, like Sony A1E OLED.
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post #75 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
That must be it because I can't find it anywhere. But manually setting it works fine just a couple extra steps, no worries, thanks!

Also, is this profile any good? I did what you said and moved the Jeti back 5ft 6 inches.

John


Nist limits is xy dE 0.001 and Y dE 1.5% blue is ok in your pic,check rest of colors.

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post #76 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
Some TVs lean a bit and that's okay, but two-laser method won't work on curved screens or TVs with pronounce tilt, like Sony A1E OLED.
I was going to bring that up lol. So while we are splitting hairs, when the Klein is in contact mode with the A9, it's tilted a couple of degrees to match the tilt of the panel where as the Jeti on a tripod 6 ft back is looking as an observer would be. I'm guessing that's ok because the Klein will be seeing what the Jeti is seeing which is what the observer would be seeing.

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post #77 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 01:51 PM
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Nist limits is xy dE 0.001 and Y dE 1.5% blue is ok in your pic,check rest of colors.
Here are the rest of the colors.
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post #78 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
That must be it because I can't find it anywhere. But manually setting it works fine just a couple extra steps, no worries, thanks!

Also, is this profile any good? I did what you said and moved the Jeti back 5ft 6 inches.

John
I never use CalMAN for meter profiling, I don't trust it, it can randomly read wrong the correction (with any meter combo), and if you close the workflow and re-open it or restart the software you can have different results. Because its something can't be replicated easily, unless you video-capture every time your whole calibration session, its a bug that can't be reported easily since it can work without problems 20 times and don't work 1.

For example LiVal works at least 5x faster than CalMAN, something similar is happening with ChromaSuft which is faster and its using better averaging method. So you can take more measurement samples with less time.

For the above reasons, and for the broken math to meter correction table calculation which was affecting CalMAN for years (until CalMAN 2017 where its been fixed), and because I don't have the time/not interest to test every single build of CalMAN if something works or not, I use only LiVAL and ChromaSurf for any meter correction table creation, which always works and you get automatically proof that it works.

It will save you time, from using calculators and manually see if the deviations are OK (your Red Y is over 2%) via CalMAN workflow, while via ChromaSurf, it will export to you automatically the verification of the generated meter correction table and also save the table only if its accurate, if the verification will fail it will not save it.

You can open later that table from any PC with CalMAN you like, since the correction is stored inside to Klein, you can load it from any notebook or PC where you have installed LightSpace or CalMAN. This is huge flexibility and safety of the accuracy of your table.

Here is an example of meter correction table verification:


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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
I never use CalMAN for meter profiling, I don't trust it, it can randomly read wrong the correction (with any meter combo), and if you close the workflow and re-open it or restart the software you can have different results. Because its something can't be replicated easily, unless you video-capture every time your whole calibration session, its a bug that can't be reported easily since it can work without problems 20 times and don't work 1.

For example LiVal works at least 5x faster than CalMAN, something similar is happening with ChromaSuft which is faster and its using better averaging method. So you can take more measurement samples with less time.

For the above reasons, and for the broken math to meter correction table calculation which was affecting CalMAN for years (until CalMAN 2017 where its been fixed), and because I don't have the time/not interest to test every single build of CalMAN if something works or not, I use only LiVAL and ChromaSurf for any meter correction table creation, which always works and you get automatically proof that it works.

It will save you time, from using calculators and manually see if the deviations are OK (your Red Y is over 2%) via CalMAN workflow, while via ChromaSurf, it will export to you automatically the verification of the generated meter correction table and also save the table only if its accurate, if the verification will fail it will not save it.

You can open later that table from any PC with CalMAN you like, since the correction is stored inside to Klein, you can load it from any notebook or PC where you have installed LightSpace or CalMAN. This is huge flexibility and safety of the accuracy of your table.

Here is an example of meter correction table verification:

Yes I know Chromasurf is more accurate but I thought with CM 2018 they fixed the math? Remember all that discussion then CM made the change you suggested and then the profiler worked?
Anyway, yes I know the Red Y is a little over 2% and no matter what I do, I can't make it better with the CM profiler. But the xy is really good and the Y on the other colors is around 1%. @WiFi spy tried to explain why the Red Y is not as exact but I forget his explanation. Maybe if he's reading this post he can update us again.


Anyway i'll try Lival and Chromasurf as you explained and see how that works with the Jeti. Thanks for all your help. So far i'm Impressed on how fast the Jeti reads, even at 6 ft back! And whomever is reading this thread, I can't stress how important it is to use Ted's profile verification workflow because every once in a while I get a less than accurate profile and you would never know it unless you verified it.

John
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Here are the rest of the colors.


Red is almost 4% (3.98) no go on that one.

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Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
Red is almost 4% (3.98) no go on that one.
3.83% but I can tell you with subsequent reads it will measure a little over 3%. The OLED drifts and I was doing a lot of experimenting. But you are right, Red Y is off.

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post #82 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
3.83% but I can tell you with subsequent reads it will measure a little over 3%. The OLED drifts and I was doing a lot of experimenting. But you are right, Red Y is off.

And now would be nice to have simultanious reading of meters to cancel out the drift
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post #83 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Yes I know Chromasurf is more accurate but I thought with CM 2018 they fixed the math? Remember all that discussion then CM made the change you suggested and then the profiler worked?
There no problem with current math, I have just checked, using as reference the CalMAN 2017 version where the math issue fixed...and compare it with current release:



Read again above post, I have lost my trust with CalMAN (for meter profiling procedure/loading internal correction) because some times its loading the correction (not related with math which is correct), some times its loading something other...which brings RGB balance off.... I haven't able to replicated twice the same time that bug, since re-opening the same workflow or re-starting CalMAN its fixing the problem.

I use whatever is providing me better results and for that 2 meter brands, (JETI-Klein) is the LiVAL-ChromaSurf.

So I don't use LightSpace or CalMAN for meter profiling, since if I do this, I will have to create different correction table for each software.

Using ChromaSuft, I can load the same correction table from LightSpace/CalMAN, from any PC I want also, without transferring any files etc.

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Anyway i'll try Lival and Chromasurf as you explained and see how that works with the Jeti. Thanks for all your help. So far i'm Impressed on how fast the Jeti reads, even at 6 ft back! And whomever is reading this thread, I can't stress how important it is to use Ted's profile verification workflow because every once in a while I get a less than accurate profile and you would never know it unless you verified it.
JETI has very narrow optics (1.8o) so scattered light is not a problem, you don't need to attach the StrayLight Tube when you are taking distance measurements.

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^^^
Got it and I noticed the same thing. Now that you mention it, I remember this discussion 2 years ago which is why whenever I make a new profile, I always let CM generate a new name. In the case above, the profile was for my home A9 so I was over writing the same profile. I know we reported it but as you say it was hard to reproduce so i'm not sure if anything was done.
And I took off the straylight tube for the distance measurements. Overall the Jeti is a really nice device. Blue Tooth connectivity works great as well.

Too bad Chromasurf will not recognize the Jeti. It would be really nice if it did and you could take simultaneous readings and be done with It but at least there is a work around

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post #85 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 03:25 PM
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I was going to bring that up lol. So while we are splitting hairs, when the Klein is in contact mode with the A9, it's tilted a couple of degrees to match the tilt of the panel where as the Jeti on a tripod 6 ft back is looking as an observer would be. I'm guessing that's ok because the Klein will be seeing what the Jeti is seeing which is what the observer would be seeing.
According to JETI support, "The diameter of the red circle is always about 10 % larger to ensure that the real measuring area is always inside the marked circle." Therefore, a small tilt shouldn't matter.

However, I have noticed more accurate reads, particular with blue component with low nit count, when I match the circles in shape as well. (The Klein has probably a perfect circle in contact mode; the JETI not so perfect if tilt is off). This can be done using the tripod mount controls, of course. Just tilt the mounting head up or down until you can see the red return beam hitting the face of the laser device. And, yes, it's very fine and powerful at 6 feet, so don't look into it!

The emitter face is about one square inch, so if the return beam is hitting that target, you are pretty much matching the incline of the television. (You may have to make lateral adjustments, that's why you need two lasers, but I guess it can be done with just one laser, too.)

Now raise or lower the tripod height, so the JETI aiming laser is hitting the centering target pattern on the TV.

I don't think it's going over board setting up this way when you have an expensive pro meter, like the JETI. You're paying for accuracy and repeat-ability, and this works for me.
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post #86 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
That must be it because I can't find it anywhere. But manually setting it works fine just a couple extra steps, no worries, thanks!

Also, is this profile any good? I did what you said and moved the Jeti back 5ft 6 inches.

John

Again, from JETI team, "The formula for the real measuring diameter is 0.032 * distance. So the diameter for 6 feet is about 58 mm."

The Klein with rubber hood is only 48mm. Klein with extension tube plus rubber hood is closer to 58 mm.
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post #87 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
The Klein with rubber hood is only 48mm. Klein with extension tube plus rubber hood is closer to 58 mm.
Klein K10A FOV in contact mode:

43mm = No Attachment
48mm = Rubber Hood
55mm = Extension Tube
60mm = Extension Tube + Rubber Hood
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post #88 of 97 Old 11-02-2018, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Here is an example of meter correction table verification:

<<snip>>
As you know I agree 100%

Hey that example is a great correction verification. Probably the best I have ever seen for WRGB, I don't think I have ever got one as good as that.

There's only one thing you guys aren't taking into consideration is on screen mood for the K10 and FOV.

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post #89 of 97 Old 11-03-2018, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Too bad Chromasurf will not recognize the Jeti. It would be really nice if it did and you could take simultaneous readings and be done with It but at least there is a work around
Its to Klein's plans to support JETI from inside ChromaSurf, but you will not able to measure both meter the same time, and also you still need to use manual patch generation since ChromaSurf can't control external generators.

But there no problem if you follow exact the procedure I have posted.
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Hey guys, lets leave that thread for JETI software announcements and continue using the thread I have just created, to talk there about meter profiling etc:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...ng-thread.html

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