Klein K10A offset - Cal file - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 32 Old 05-12-2014, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

Is there any calibration software that can apply the offset info provided by Klein instruments when measuring with K10A except its own ChromaSurf? i.e. when measuring Sony OLED, we need to apply the offset in the measurement.

Tom says Chromapure can not. He proposed me to profile it with i1 Pro.
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post #2 of 32 Old 05-12-2014, 08:51 PM
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You can enter the offset in the "screen offset" setting in CalMAN. The offset is x: .006 y: .011 Y: 0

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post #3 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 01:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post

You can enter the offset in the "screen offset" setting in CalMAN. The offset is x: .006 y: .011 Y: 0

If the white point target for Sony OLED is 0.3117, 0.3240 instead of 0.3127 & 0.3290, how to enter it in the CalMAN?
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post #4 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 08:54 AM
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You can enter the offset in the "screen offset" setting in CalMAN. The offset is x: .006 y: .011 Y: 0

If the white point target for Sony OLED is 0.3117, 0.3240 instead of 0.3127 & 0.3290, how to enter it in the CalMAN?

Hello, you can create a Custom ColorSpace based to REC709 and to change the White Point to x: 0.3117, y: 0.3240

From the software I use, you can do this with LightSpace and with CalMAN also.

You have to set also as active correction table the Sony OLED Klein's table also.

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post #7 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by randal_r View Post

Why would you deviate from the REC 709?

Measuring the Sony OLED Broadcast displays requires the use of an offset to get an accurate white point. It has been determined by Sony that the Minotla CS2000 requires an offset to accurately measure D65 on the Sony OLED's. The Klein K-Series Colorimeters use the CS2000 as a reference device, so they too need this offset. Instructions for how to deal with this offset can be found on this White Paper:

Sony OLED Display White point Correction with the Klein K10-A using the K Colorimeter Program.

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Klein K-10A has some factory stored meter correction tables for various displays.

One of them is for Sony OLED, using a Sony TRIMASTER EL Series Monitor with a Minolta CS-2000 as a reference to create the meter correction table.

But you need to add manually on offset to thi table, due to CMF's differencies.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by randal_r View Post

A Klein K10A is a colorimeter and needs to be profiled against a spectrometer on the same display. Using the offsets from another profiling is of no value what so ever. Keep in mind that the process is called a four color correction matrix adjustment which will have more information then what is being conveyed in the postings of this thread.

You need to do more research. Michael Chen has video posted on YouTube on profiling using CalMAN. Do the research and strive to understand the rhyme and reason for the process and then you will know when the advice that is given is of any value.

Here is Sony's white paper on the subject:

https://static.squarespace.com/static/51e84ed2e4b0b07947c885ff/51e86f9fe4b065e517d4793b/51e86fa2e4b065e517d4827f/1366667349663/White%20Balance%20of%20Trimaster%20EL%20Monitors%20Rev%202.docx

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post #11 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by randal_r View Post

By the documentation that you have presented it appears to be an adjustment procedure to compensate the the K10A's inability to handle OLED displays (such as Sony's). A four color correction matrix adjustment should do the same.

Needs the extra offset also. It's not stored to meter correction table.

Meter correction table is coming from Minolta, but the white point doesn't match if you place a LED for example next to OLED, so you are adding this offset to visually match both different display technologies.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by randal_r View Post

By the documentation that you have presented it appears to be an adjustment procedure to compensate the the K10A's inability to handle OLED displays (such as Sony's). A four color correction matrix adjustment should do the same.

Needs the extra offset also. It's not stored to meter correction table.

Meter correction table is coming from Minolta, but the white point doesn't match if you place a LED for example next to OLED, so you are adding this offset to visually match both different display technologies.

We are talking about things Minolta can't see by the default CIE 1931 Colour Matching Functions (CMF) the industry has as a standard and it's using. wink.gif

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This white paper explains it all Issues in color matching
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post #14 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 09:55 AM
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We are talking about things Minolta can't see by the default CIE 1931 Colour Matching Functions (CMF) ...

Good grief! ... we're all doomed! eek.gif
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We are talking about things Minolta can't see by the default CIE 1931 Colour Matching Functions (CMF) ...

Good grief! ... we're all doomed! eek.gif

These things have to change first, I mean to become a globally standard a newer CMF. and later to care about REC2020 etc. etc.

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These things have to change first, I mean to become a globally standard a newer CMF. and later to care about REC2020 etc. etc.

I was wondering about this. Graeme apparently has half a dozen or so CMFs programed into his i1Pro Argyll driver, and I was curious as to when someone might want to use something other than the CIE1931, 2 degree functions for HDTV displays ... I haven't had time to do any background research or experimentation with the other functions.

In fact I was just searching for an appropriate thread to pose these very questions. smile.gif
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post

These things have to change first, I mean to become a globally standard a newer CMF. and later to care about REC2020 etc. etc.

I was wondering about this. Graeme apparently has half a dozen or so CMFs programed into his i1Pro Argyll driver, and I was curious as to when someone might want to use something other than the CIE1931, 2 degree functions for HDTV displays ... I haven't had time to do any background research or experimentation with the other functions.

In fact I was just searching for an appropriate thread to pose these very questions. smile.gif

Movies has been mastered using CMF 1931, the industry has to approve one newer CMF and widely use it.

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post #19 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 10:50 AM
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FSI OLED Post-Production Displays that are factory 3D-LUT pre-calibrated with LightSpace to REC.709 and Power Gamma Law 2.2, they had in their OSD menu a 'Judd Modified' option where it enables/disables a white point shifting but I have no data about the exact x,y they used.

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post #20 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 11:40 AM
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From my perspective it still appears to be compensating for the meters ability to handle newer display technologies. In the documentation that you forwarded (thank you for doing that), one is making a meter correction file. A question comes to mind, " Is this correction file good for only one model or all models of the same manufacturer"?

Please forward any information about the newer CMF.

When you talk about LED compared to OLEDs in a side by side comparison I can oly assume that you are talking about the problem of Metamerism. This issue goes deeper then OLEDs vs LCDs . One has to also take into account of the color decoder, various internal circuitry, back lighting methods, ...., etc. This could be a whole thread in it's self.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever compared the offset method to the four color correction matrix method? I would be curious to know the outcome.

Regarding the REC 2020 it is theorized that one would need anywhere from a 16 bit to a 24 bit to handle the dynamic range.

Not metamerism and and not LCD. If you compare the spectral response from a Plasma, CRT, OLED, LED, CCFL, UHP, Xenon, QD, etc... what do they all have in common? They are all designed via direct or filtered to create some form of a tristimuls spectrum "RGB" to match the human observer. The problem is none of them match or create light in the same way. In 1931 a color matching function was created to quantify how the average human responds to a RGB spectral response. The problem is back in 1931 the only display technology that was targeted was CRT. So the 1931 CMF lacks the knowledge that in order to hit a wider gamut you need narrower primaries. In order to have narrower primaries most of the above SPD's have significant energy at near ultra violet and near infrared. That energy at both ends of the spectrum are in fact seen by most people but not as color in many cases as light energy. What color is the human eye the most sensitive to? Green. So for most of us see this NUV and NIR as a form green. Take a properly calibrated CRT to D65 1931 CMF and a very wide gamut OLED, CCFL, LED and they will look different. One or the other when compared to each other will have a green cast in white.

So yes we do need an updated CMF to deal with the above issues. But as with any standard they are very slow at moving along. Plus you have millions of hours footage that has been mastered to 1931.

Within CalMAN we have options for all of the standard CMF's and some experimental ones. But currently this is only valid when using a spectroradiometer like the i1Pro etc...
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post #21 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 11:54 AM
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Good grief! ... we're all doomed! eek.gif

Yes and no. The CS-2000 can in fact see all the spectral response needed. That is the case with all other spectro's made. The problem is the built in 1931 CMF used by default to produce XYZ from SPD. It is the 1931 CMF that is lacking. One of the reasons CalMAN 5 by default reads the raw SPD from spectro's and uses internal CMF, yes by default 1931. But you also have other choices. The one most have settled on is Judd-Vos modified for now. A lot of research is currently going on into newer CMF and we are in touch with most research groups on this subject.
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post #22 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 11:56 AM
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Within CalMAN we have options for all of the standard CMF's and some experimental ones. But currently this is only valid when using a spectroradiometer like the i1Pro etc...

i1PRO has some limitations, since the 1931 2° CIE Standard Colorimetric Observer Data are provided from 380nm to 780nm and sampled at 5nm, i1PRO as we know has optical resolution of 10nm, and it's limited to 380-730 nm only.

JETI Specbos 1211 / PhotoResearch / Minolta are covering the full visible part of the spectrum (380 - 780 nm) or more.

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post #23 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 12:04 PM
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i1PRO has some limitations, since the 1931 2° CIE Standard Colorimetric Observer Data are provided from 380nm to 780nm and sampled at 5nm, i1PRO as we know has optical resolution of 10nm, and it's limited to 380-730 nm only.

JETI Specbos 1211 / PhotoResearch / Minolta are covering the full visible part of the spectrum (380 - 780 nm) or more.

Yes that is true. But most of the issue comes from near ultraviolet 340-400. Specifically 380-400nm.
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post #24 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 06:16 PM
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This issue goes deeper then OLEDs vs LCDs . One has to also take into account of the color decoder, various internal circuitry, back lighting methods, ...., etc. This could be a whole thread in it's self.

Not really. All that should be accounted for in measuring the spectrum of light emitted by the display. If, on the other hand, the particular display primary spectra happen to emphasize a discrepancy between the CIE1931 standard observer and real life observers, then it's all about the CMF being used.

The 1931 observer does have some acknowledge technical flaws in the S curves (blue region), and these were largely corrected in the 1964 10 degree observer CMF measurements - but it is 10 degree, not 2 degree, so is probably not appropriate for imagery. In spite of the flaw in the 1931 CMF, the error was minor enough in practical terms that it was better to stick with it as a standard than attempt to switch everyone to something new. A display technology aiming at a wider gamut may well have a blue primary that lands right in the region where the 1931 CMF has the largest error, hence a visual discrepancy between what is measured as white, and what most people will see as white. So you either need to switch to a better CMF, or add some correction factor to the 1931 XYZ.

If you have a spectrometer, you can use a different CMF. If you have a colorimeter with calibration computed from the instruments sensitivity curves (such as the i1 Display Pro or Spyder 4), then you can also use a different CMF. If you have a colorimeter that only has calibration matricies, then you either need to create a new calibration matrix against a spectrometer using a different CMF, or you need some sort of correction matrix to use on top of the standard calibration matrix for that type of display.

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post #25 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 06:25 PM
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So yes we do need an updated CMF to deal with the above issues. But as with any standard they are very slow at moving along. Plus you have millions of hours footage that has been mastered to 1931.

One of the things not mentioned much in relation to wide gamut is that there is a tradeoff:

As you widen the gamut by narrowing the primaries and moving them to more extreme wavelengths, you move into areas where there are greater and greater differences between observers.

You could choose primaries such that the largest number of people will all see the same color with not so wide a gamut, or you can widen the gamut and then a very much smaller number of people will see the same colors.

In principle, a solution to this quandary is to add more primaries. This is expensive and complicated though, and hard to get right (you have to actually get the color science of separating into > 3 primaries right.)

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post #27 of 32 Old 05-13-2014, 08:27 PM
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I have read that other CMF's exist but they to seem to ave their own problematic issues. While it would be nice to replace the 1931 version but there doesn't seem to be anything superior to replace the existing one. Besides the 1931 version is so ingrained within the science of color and vision that any new version would have to be problem free. I do not see this happening in the near future.

Most of the color science research in this area is directed at configurable CMF's, where parameters can be set for age and genetic/biological variation. Current research suggests that you need something like five parameters do get a reasonable fit to any person with normal color vision:

Field size, 1 - 10 degrees
Effective age, 20 - 80 years to account for lens yellowing
Macula Density adjustment
L curve peak shift in nm
M curve peak shift in nm

Coming up with a single "new/better" CMF would really be about the practical business of surveying a representative number of people, and deciding what sort of compromise CMF will please the most people or displease the least number of people.

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bump

Loving D65
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FSI OLED Post-Production Displays that are factory 3D-LUT pre-calibrated with LightSpace to REC.709 and Power Gamma Law 2.2, they had in their OSD menu a 'Judd Modified' option where it enables/disables a white point shifting but I have no data about the exact x,y they used.
FSI actually calibrate to Rec709 with a 2.35/2.4 Power law now (changed from 2.2 a little while back).
Their OLEDS are calibrated via a 'Perceptual Colour Matching' process, as the Judd approach didn't generate acceptable results, as Sony have found as they have changed their 'suggested' Judd offset values a couple of times.

See: http://www.lightillusion.com/percept...our_match.html

We developed this process in partnership with FSI, and it is now used by a lot of the top post-facilities for their grading work performed on OLEDs.

Hope that helps.

Steve
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Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

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