The certainly not complete user guide to get to know and calibrate your TV - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 34Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 48 Old 09-04-2014, 03:45 PM
Newbie
 
aim60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Another Thank You to the OP. I've learned several new tricks for using HCFR from the guide. There are calibration guides floating around, but not much on the ins and outs of using HCFR, and I've been through the whole 140+ pages of the HCFR thread.
aim60 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 48 Old 01-14-2017, 04:42 PM
Senior Member
 
HammerJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 344
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 19
I have purchase a X-rite display colorimeter and downloaded HCFR.
I have purchased a new tv that Hisense 65CU6200 that has white balance settings (2 point and 10 points) and also cms (color tuner) along the standard settings.
I have not received the colorimeter yet so I have been reading all I can about calibration so that I am ready.
I would've loved to see a video tutorial of how to use HCFR but failing that this one is pretty good and I have learned quite a bit.
I have a few questions that I hope can be answered so that I can do a good job calibrating my set.

I have downloaded the AVSHD709 calibration disk in Mp4 format that I copied to an USB drive and that I plugged directly into the USB plug of the TV.

I am a bit confused about the full rgb and limited RGB. What should I do to make sure I am using the right settings in HCFR?
My set up is pretty simple, I have a PS3 (I know, I know) set up in limited RGB that I use for the occasional game and bluray discs and my satellite receiver for regular tv both plugged via hdmi to my sound receiver (yamaha vsx-v663) that outputs via hdmi to the TV. From what I know the V663 outputs in limited RGB which is the standard for HDMI 1.3.

- Would it be preferable to connect the Ps3 directly to the TV in full RGB mode instead?

Anyway what I got from this is when doing calibration from the USBDRIVE I should set the 16 as black and 235 as white and see no bars in the pattern below 16 and above 235?

Am I in the right path so far?

When measuring greyscale if I do the 10 point is it necessary to do the 2 point as well?
The guide here says for the two point to use the 80% for Offset and 30% for the gains. So cant I just copy the results from the 10 point equivalent percentages?
Btw I have read elsewhere to use the 75% and 25% for the 2 point white balance. So whos right?

As for the pattern from the avshd patterns, should I use the ones from the folder COLORHCFR Fields/10% grayscale to calibrate the 2 point and 10 point white balance?

Now for the primary and secondary colors, do I really need to use that GCD disk or can I use the AVSHD disk in COLORHCFR folder as well?

I am a bit confused with this step.
"In the „Measures view“ use the drop down menu top left to switch to „Primaries and Secondaries“. Hit Go and do a run (On the calibrations discs you are using the „color sweep“ pattern videos at 100% saturation and 100% luminance. This is different from the Color saturation pattern videos, so make sure you use the correct one). Good news, this times its only 6 individual measurements."


Are these patterns in the folder COLORHCFR/100% color ?

The the second step:
"This time you can stay at the „Measures View/Primaries and Secondaries“, you will initialize the saturation measurements via „Measures/Saturations/Primary and Secondary Colors“ in the top most menu (even above the icons).

If you are using a calibration disk, at this point you are looking for the Color Saturation Sweep pattern. Be warned, this time around you will take 20 individual measurements."

I imagine that the patterns for this are located in the folder colorhcfr/saturation ?

But how do I do this with my TV?
In the color tuner mode I have the 7 colors (red,green,blue,yellow,cyan,magenta,flesh tone) but I dont have a scale 0%,25%,75%,100%, for each color all I have for options are Brightness, saturation and Contrast ?

How do I go about doing this because I am a bit confused and what am I looking for? Get the target leel close to 100% and the lowest dE I can get?

Last edited by HammerJoe; 01-15-2017 at 01:34 PM.
HammerJoe is offline  
post #33 of 48 Old 01-15-2017, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
harlekin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 707
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 139
I don't care to look up pattern and folders names anymore - as I have verified "low inter device variability" on my devices - and use HCFR and its inbuilt pattern generator instead of color pattern disks you have to switch manually.

As "known good sources" (for example in combination with a PS3) they are a good baseline to "get to know" output source accuracy (similarity really, ...) - but for my taste - you should switch to HCFRs pattern generator as soon as possible. From hearsay - you now can also use a Google Chromecast as a pattern generator for HCFR - so if there is proven to be low variability / deviance from ideal - I'd recommend doing that as well.

Pattern disks are just a hassle, that will keep you from learning more doing several calibration runs. They are a crutch. They might be necessary if your playback device introduces huge color (/greyscale) shifts. Most (from experience) don't. Some do.
-

RGB limited / full: You should see it when you get there. You are talking about loosing the botom 16 shades of dark colors (all crushed and black), or introducing black 16 shades too "bright" - so in effect you should see that something is wrong when the two don't match up - quite easily.

HCFRs black border around all color fields, if you use an APL level above 0%, always is PC level 0 black (while the black in the middle might be not, depending on your settings on the same settings screen), afair - and I have used this in the past as an indicator. (If both blacks look different on your screen, something is wrong (either the HCFR setting for limited or full, or the TVs setting for limited or full).

But you could also use any brightness testpattern - the crushed blacks you should very much see on the patterns, black being blown out (starting at 16 levels too high) you wont be able to see on a pattern, but really - looking at how real world images look, it should be obvious.

Mostly its just finding the "full/limited/(auto)" setting on your TV - and flipping it a few times - and you should know which one is the one to use for the input signal you are faced with.

2 point and 10 point sometimes go together, sometimes are completely different settings, it depends on the TV and model. Usually it is recommended, to calibrate 2 point first, and then calibrate 10 point in addition - but mostly because of little kinks, like LG TV supposedly producing more artefacts if you try to correct everything with 10 point sliders. It also means that in most cases they should go together.


No, I won't provide videos (I've never even once seen a Youtube tutorial that was even half as decent as a written write up that had time to be self referential, reflect, correct, rewrite, ...) - and I won't provide step by step handholding after having written a step by step tutorial, bit should there be questions that come up after at least having tried to figure out a supposed "issue" first - I'm sure someone will provide support, me included.

Just don't expect others to do the figuring out for you. Questions like "what does 100% brightness, 100% saturation" mean - warrent a "take a guess - 100% brightness, 100% saturation" answer.

Asking if you really need all those pesky color patterns if you want to calibrate a TVs color almost ask for a "not if you only wan't to calibrate six colors total" answer.

Logic has to be applied.

Don't mistake forum users for App usage assistances.

Also - because gamma is so horribly broken by design by now - I'd says that calibrating TVs currently is out of the question and everyone who is suggesting that they are doing so are lying their asses off.



Calibrators today wan't to tell you that it is ok to calibrate TVs to either one of those two targets (or any number of different ones, no one cares) today - just depending on "if your room is bright" - or if "the black level of your TV demands it".

We have some real "voodoo sh*t" going on currently as far as "standards" are concerned.

Basically because of that I'd suggest, that TV calibration currently is more a distributed fraud model, than an actual model that standardizes anything.

You are welcome to join that discussion, once you have learned whats going on. You won't learn it, if you are just asking question on how to best follow tutorial steps. Or to match your testdisc with a different testdisc, or a specific calibration program.

Use several, find out the varience for yourself. If you arent sure you use the right patterns, try to understand what they are showing - instead of getting a "yes this one, and then that one" shortcut out of someone.

edit: If your CMS settings are labeld strangely - yes, ingeneral you are looking for low dE values and a Color target thats "spot on".

But as you ordered a colorimeter that depends on factory corrections for each "display type" (defined in difference in spectral graphs), and there have been several new "display types" introduced in LED LCDs alone in the past three four years, on which no one cared to profile or compare them - colorimeters without model specific spectral corrections become more and more useless by the day.

Also - you may or may not trust spectral corrections, as I have seen at least two of them break in spectacular fashion (compared to a spectroradiometers readings) on current TVs -

and of course there is the color metamerism failure issue - people in here wan't to ignore as well (but that will become more prevalent with the new quantom dot devices, I'm sure... So color "science" for TVs is broken three or four different ways, and thoroughly broken by every one of those issues - so have fun - measuring "something".

Calibrating "something".
Roland.Online likes this.

Last edited by harlekin; 01-15-2017 at 03:21 PM.
harlekin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 48 Old 01-15-2017, 03:21 PM
Senior Member
 
HammerJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 344
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Harlekin, Please do not take my post as a diss to your tutorial.
I think it is a fantastic one and I will be using it when I get the X-rite display to improve the picture of my TV.
I want to thank you for taking the time to create it to help us newbs at this thing.

I have read it and reread it so that I understand what it all means and be able to use it but im just a bit stuck on the color saturation section because I havent figured out or understood what I am doing with my TV to calibrate the different levels of saturation for each color.
It will be a hands on kinda of project once I get the Xrite and start using and everything starts falling into place.
HammerJoe is offline  
post #35 of 48 Old 01-15-2017, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
harlekin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 707
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Its fine - its not you, its me. (The decision on how to react to overly "could you tell me how to do that" requests on the internet was one I made quite a long time ago.. This is not a service, this is a knowledge based community (at least to some extent.. ) - trying to figure things out is part of the (readers) responsibility.

(Although feedback on the readability of a tutorial is always welcome - its just that mainly - I don't want to go back to looking through several calibration discs, when essentially I stopped using them a while ago.. As a guideline - the color triangle graph in HCFR should give you an understanding for what points you are measuring on what pattern - you should be able to figure out most of the remaining questions from that.)

(There is a rounding issue (relevant mostly for near black calibrations) that apparently might be relevant in compination with one calibration disc - ConnecTEDDD has explained it in the 2016 Oled calibration thread. Look that up as well, if you plan to stick with (free) calibration disks as pattern sources.)
harlekin is offline  
post #36 of 48 Old 01-15-2017, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
harlekin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 707
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 139
This article offers a visual representation of luma curves (brightness curve) for color chain levels set correctly, black (and therefore near black) set 16 shades too low and black set 16 shades to high. Use google translate to get the gist.

http://www.flatpanels.dk/nyhed.php?s...&id=1483301446

You can also follow the tip provided in the article to take a brightness test pattern (black and near black bars) and then start switching the full/limited setting on your TV. If the lower blacks (up to 16) start to crush, when you flip the switch, dont use the setting that crushes them - if both settings don't crush them, use the setting that provides the "darker" overall picture.

RGB full (0-255) vs limited (16-235) question "solved".
harlekin is offline  
post #37 of 48 Old 01-16-2017, 01:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,323
Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4392 Post(s)
Liked: 1620
It's a nice guide but I have some comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
the second is Gray Scale (GDI) where you can choose between 0-255 (= full RGB) and 16-235 (= limited RGB). This setting has to be set accordingly to the full/limited RGB chain you‘ve set earlier. You will set it to output the same way you‘ve set your video cards output signal in the driver settings.
This isn't quite right. Assuming the TV expects 16-235 and the video card is also set to output 16-235, HCFR should be set to 0-255. Otherwise the output will be incorrect due to "double-scaling".

Quote:
In HCFR you are working with two kinds of views. The measures view, where you will see all kinds of numbers, and Graphs/Diagrams view which will get created out of those measured numbers. It is important to know how to get back to the measures view at any time, because its from there where we advance in our calibration run.
Instead of switching back and forth between the Measures view and the Graphs/Diagrams view, it's much easier to run calibration with both views displayed at the same time, with the latter in the lower Information window (which displays Comments by default).

Quote:
If your Gamma line is WIDELY off your set Gamma target (as in not only vertically misaligned, but all kinds of curvey and bendy (a little bit is ok), crossing all kinds of gamma levels (2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, ...) you will have to correct it by either using a different gamma preset (if you TV or projector provides any, most do NOT), or using the 10 pt white balance (=greyscale) configuration option on your TV (if your TV provides any, most do not). If you are of the impression that for you this step would be needed - I will not go into how its done in detail - read the latest few pages of the HCFR thread on this forums (look at the publishing date of this posting), you‘l find it described. In short, you will be raising and or lowering all colors in every one of the 10 pt white balance settings on your TV -uniformly (as in R, G and B, to the same degree) to reach the Y target calculated by HCFR. Timeconsuming stuff.
If the TV uses the 10-point R/G/B controls to adjust the gamma, it's much easier to set the "Gray scale dE handling" Preference to "Absolute Y w/gamma". That way, all you need to do is to first set the black and white points, and then go through the in-between points, adjusting R/G/B all to 100% (in the Selected color windows), and both the greyscale and the gamma will be correct. If the effects of the 10-pt controls overlap with the adjacent ones, you may have to go though the range one more time to fine tune it.

Quote:
After you've done that, redo the 10 step greyscale calibration run (its the same Go button). To see your impact on the entire greyscale.
When the „RGB levels graph“ shows all color lines very close tho the 100% target line and the dE line graph shows very low dE readings, your job with greyscale is done.
The 10-point controls have a direct impact on the gamma, especially if the green colour is adjusted. One should check the gamma before proceeding to the next step. (If the dE handling is set as I recommend above, then 100% means both the grey scale and the gamma are correct).

Quote:
To know which way to adjust the color and hue/tint sliders (if at all), you should already have gotten a clue dependent on the experiments at the „Measures view/Primaries and Secondaries“ stage, but to get a more visual help, switch to the CIE Diagram graph (icon up top, to the right of the „Measures view“ icon).
As mentioned above, it's best to keep the measurement view on the top half of the window, and shows the CIE Diagram in the lower Information window. That way you can visually see the "delta xy" in the CIE diagram and also the "delta luminace" value in the Measures grid.
Alex solomon, harlekin and mo949 like this.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-17-2017 at 01:37 PM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #38 of 48 Old 01-17-2017, 01:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mo949's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,955
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 1193
Incredibly well written piece

One of the best things I've read all year.
mo949 is offline  
post #39 of 48 Old 01-17-2017, 06:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
aaranddeeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lover's State
Posts: 4,079
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1874 Post(s)
Liked: 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post
Incredibly well written piece

One of the best things I've read all year.
Absolutely.
This should be pasted as a link into the first post of HCFR thread.
aaranddeeman is offline  
post #40 of 48 Old 01-18-2017, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
harlekin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 707
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 139
@Dominic Chan :

I agree with all of your points. In fact in two cases I've already implemented the methods you suggest (always have a gamma window open, and of course keep HCFR displaying 0-255 patterns, if your graphics card is set to downsample to 16-235), without having attended to the tutorial and having rewritten it.

Also thank you for having caught the 0-255 being essential in this case "error", its an important detail, that people need to get right.

Your breakdown is already very concise and to the point, so I'm taking the liberty to link it with some clarifying remarks at the end of the tutorial on page 1.

Thank you for your input. And thinking along while reading.

h.
harlekin is offline  
post #41 of 48 Old 01-23-2017, 04:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
Kingcarcas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: East Los Angeles
Posts: 780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 40
*Bravo* *Bravo* For weeks now I've been looking for a good not-so-old guide and finally!! Also appreciate the "Hanesian" -esque humor I would just spiff it up with some pictures and this should be stickied.


Funny thing about the HCFR RGB setting, I just noticed it was 0-255 and thought "well that can't be right" and I switched it thinking that was wrong.............guess i have to switch it back.


Last edited by Kingcarcas; 01-23-2017 at 04:41 PM.
Kingcarcas is offline  
post #42 of 48 Old 01-24-2017, 09:25 AM
Senior Member
 
HammerJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 344
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
It's a nice guide but I have some comments:
If the TV uses the 10-point R/G/B controls to adjust the gamma, it's much easier to set the "Gray scale dE handling" Preference to "Absolute Y w/gamma". That way, all you need to do is to first set the black and white points, and then go through the in-between points, adjusting R/G/B all to 100% (in the Selected color windows), and both the greyscale and the gamma will be correct. If the effects of the 10-pt controls overlap with the adjacent ones, you may have to go though the range one more time to fine tune it.
HCFR does not allow to change the setting in the recommended option, so what would sugest to use? CIE2000 or do manually what the recommended setting does which is to use CIE94 for gray and CIE2000 for colors?
HammerJoe is offline  
post #43 of 48 Old 01-24-2017, 09:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Mississauga, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,323
Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4392 Post(s)
Liked: 1620
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerJoe View Post
HCFR does not allow to change the setting in the recommended option, so what would sugest to use? CIE2000 or do manually what the recommended setting does which is to use CIE94 for gray and CIE2000 for colors?
Since the objective is to minimize dE (rather than to adjust to some specific value), I just use CIE2000, but w/Gamma so that I can easily see the luminance error while adjusting grey scale.
NOTE: the comment regarding including luminance is only for greyscale. For colours, luminance is always included in the dE formula.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-24-2017 at 11:45 AM.
Dominic Chan is online now  
post #44 of 48 Old 01-24-2017, 06:21 PM
Member
 
raidflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 34
I have an issue with Full/Limited RGB for calibrating my JS8500 TV with a Color Munki Display. I have a laptop with an Intel HD 4400 GPU connected to the TV through HDMI and enabled FULL RGB (Quantization Full) in the Intel driver settings and also enabled "normal" for the HDMI black level setting on the Samsung TV. Now in HCFR I also enabled 0-255 for pattern generator. After taking a reading for grey scale when I check my gamma it is way off, at around 2.8-2.9. If I turn on limited on the Intel GPU settings and "low" for HDMI black level I will get readings around 2.4. But what I cannot figure out is why is the gamma way off when enabling full RGB in all devices in the chain? It feels like the GPU is not displaying 0-255 and only 16-235, despite what I have the settings set to. For reference I am measuring grey scale to BT.1886 standard.

Samsung JS8500 65in
Pioneer VSX-53
Mains: Ascend Acoustics CMT-340 SE
Center: Ascend Acoustics CMT-340 SE
Surrounds: Ascend Acoustics HTM-200 SE
Sub: HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP
raidflex is offline  
post #45 of 48 Old 01-26-2017, 09:28 AM
Member
 
raidflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Bump. Anyone have any idea what seems to be the issue? Maybe I am overlooking something?

Samsung JS8500 65in
Pioneer VSX-53
Mains: Ascend Acoustics CMT-340 SE
Center: Ascend Acoustics CMT-340 SE
Surrounds: Ascend Acoustics HTM-200 SE
Sub: HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP
raidflex is offline  
post #46 of 48 Old 01-26-2017, 09:53 AM
Senior Member
 
dschlic1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampabay, FL
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 157 Post(s)
Liked: 53
I have not had much luck using the video out from a computer as a signal generator. For that reason and also to calibrate the complete chain, I always use a calibration disk in a player that will normally be used.
ConnecTEDDD likes this.

LG OLED65B6P TV, Marantz SR7012 AV receiver, Sony UBP-X700 Player, Klipsch F-30 speaker system
dschlic1 is offline  
post #47 of 48 Old 01-26-2017, 11:46 AM
Member
 
raidflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by dschlic1 View Post
I have not had much luck using the video out from a computer as a signal generator. For that reason and also to calibrate the complete chain, I always use a calibration disk in a player that will normally be used.
Yeah, I was trying to avoid that because the pattern generator in HCFR would be faster then manually switching patterns. I may try another PC with an NVIDIA GPU to see if I have any differences.

Samsung JS8500 65in
Pioneer VSX-53
Mains: Ascend Acoustics CMT-340 SE
Center: Ascend Acoustics CMT-340 SE
Surrounds: Ascend Acoustics HTM-200 SE
Sub: HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP
raidflex is offline  
post #48 of 48 Old 01-26-2017, 12:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
hungro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 177 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
Whats D65?

D65 is a certain color of white (red, green, blue proportions) that is defined as 100% white. Why? Simple.

harlekin

I think that you should mention D65 is a specific point on the CIE diagram. 3127x 329y.
hungro is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off