What does d65 look like? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 57 Old 04-14-2015, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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What does d65 look like?

I was reading something on the net and a guy said he could recognize d65 when he seen it.

I don't have a meter so how I know how too recognize d65 on a dim plasma?
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post #2 of 57 Old 04-14-2015, 03:53 PM
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If you're very accustomed to it, you can probably notice when color temperature is considerably off. Human vision is not capable of determining these things with any kind of precision. Human senses tend to be highly relative to their surroundings, rather than absolute as a test instrument is. We're sensitive to small differences between colors, but are essentially not capable of making absolute judgements. A trained observer is better at it than an untrained observer, but all are subject to human limitations.

The only way to be sure is by use of a test instrument, either a colorimeter or spectroradiometer.

Of course, there is no device that can measure color - as color is a perception. We can measure light and spectral power distribution and based on that and a statistical model derived from observers, estimate color.
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post #3 of 57 Old 04-14-2015, 08:29 PM
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A little history might help. This was taught in the early days of the Imaging Science Foundation courses. In the CRT days displays had a difficult time producing a very bright white without going non-linear. The white point of D65 was settled on because it was considered as far up on the Kelvin scale as practical before most viewers would recognize it as being blue-ish white. A slightly blue-white is perceived as brighter than a more neutral white, such as the CIE equal energy point on the chromaticity diagram (x-0.333, y-0.333, approx. 5455K).

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post #4 of 57 Old 04-14-2015, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I know mine has never looked very good when it's too warm.It's washed out,less clear.It really is impossible too do by eye UNLESS you fluke out.But the problem is you never know if you've fluked out.

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post #5 of 57 Old 04-15-2015, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Vic12345 View Post
I know mine has never looked very good when it's too warm.It's washed out,less clear.
A white sheet of paper under overcast sky would give you a very rough idea what D65 looks like.

However, colour temperature governs how warm or cool the screen looks. If your screen looks washed out, it's most likely caused by settings other than the colour temperature.
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post #6 of 57 Old 04-15-2015, 11:22 AM
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A white sheet of paper under overcast sky would give you a very rough idea what D65 looks like.

However, colour temperature governs how warm or cool the screen looks. If your screen looks washed out, it's most likely caused by settings other than the colour temperature.
Way too rough for any practical use. Paper is rated for "brightness" by how blue the paper is. Sunlight varies in color temperature by constantly changing factors, among which are: color of nearby reflecting surfaces (such as house paint, the color of clothing being worn by the person holding the paper, tree leaves, etc.), how dense the cloud cover is, altitude, background color framing the paper (such as holding it over a lawn, concrete, etc.), etc.

Here's a "sticky" thread from the top of this section of the forum that includes some good links for more detail on these issues:

'How Viewing Environment Conditions Can Corrupt Or Enhance Your Calibration.'

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849430
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post #7 of 57 Old 04-15-2015, 01:57 PM
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GeorgeAB;33505986]Way too rough for any practical use.
That's why I said very rough, including the emphasis. The OP was asking about "recognizing D65 without a meter". Do you have any suggestions?
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post #8 of 57 Old 04-15-2015, 03:52 PM
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That's why I said very rough, including the emphasis. The OP was asking about "recognizing D65 without a meter". Do you have any suggestions?
My suggestion would be to put what that "guy on the net said" out of his mind and study what has been offered in this thread. I still "like" post #2 , by nuke, as a suitable analysis of the issue in brief.

A human observer requires an objective reference to reliably evaluate and identify subtleties of color. The only objective reference professionals have used, before color meters became available, was optical comparators. Those devices couldn't be as precise as modern meters. They were used to adjust gray scale in the 6500K region, not the CIE D65 white point. There are old threads somewhere on this forum dedicated to building an optical comparator less costly than a meter.

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post #9 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 10:27 AM
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As a note I have an X-rite i1Display Pro (ID3). I had some question about the calibration, in particular the amount of blue it was measuring. I did an experiment. I have a X-rite Passport which has neutral white/gray sheets. I used one of those outside in bright sunlight and measured the reflected color off of the sheet with the iD3. The result was very close to 6500K. Again not completely accurate, but perhaps a good gut check that the meter is not way off.

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post #10 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 10:54 AM
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Most photography shops will have an 18% reflectance photo gray card in stock. They are readily available from online photography supply vendors as well. This is probably the least expensive and reliable objective reference for neutral gray widely available.
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post #11 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dschlic1 View Post
As a note I have an X-rite i1Display Pro (ID3). I had some question about the calibration, in particular the amount of blue it was measuring. I did an experiment. I have a X-rite Passport which has neutral white/gray sheets. I used one of those outside in bright sunlight and measured the reflected color off of the sheet with the iD3. The result was very close to 6500K. Again not completely accurate, but perhaps a good gut check that the meter is not way off.
Your I1D3 will work pretty darn well out of the box with the Sony KDL42V4100. Just pick CCFL LCD as the display type and it should match it really well to D65.

If you have a display with one of the more advanced backlight technologies, they might not jibe up as well as there are no spectral correction data files for quantum dots and some other newer technologies yet.

Another way to visually compare is to use a photographic viewing box with known and calibrated D65 lamps in it and a grey chart. You can put that right next to the display and eyeball it by comparison and get pretty close.

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post #12 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 12:54 PM
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Most photography shops will have an 18% reflectance photo gray card in stock. They are readily available from online photography supply vendors as well. This is probably the least expensive and reliable objective reference for neutral gray widely available.
An instructor from X-Rite indicated to me that Gray Cards are designed to give 18% reflectance measurement. That is their main usage.

They are not necessarily 100% neutral gray, but may be close. They will vary and can only be confirmed to be neutral by a densitometer.
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post #13 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 01:04 PM
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nuke,

The portable pro-grade light boxes with D65 option, as you describe, have been rather expensive in my past investigation. Here's a typical recent example: http://www.colorhq.com/Judge-IIS-Por.../jus50u30a.htm

A spectro and software can be had for less.
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post #14 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 01:09 PM
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An instructor from X-Rite indicated to me that Gray Cards are designed to give 18% reflectance measurement. That is their main usage.

They are not necessarily 100% neutral gray, but may be close. They will vary and can only be confirmed to be neutral by a densitometer.
Next up, then, would be a Munsell neutral value sample from X-Rite, or a smaller format gray scale sample set.
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post #15 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 01:18 PM
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Isn't this what D65 looks like?
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post #16 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 01:26 PM
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Isn't this what D65 looks like?
There's one in every thread!
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post #17 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 02:32 PM
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nuke,

The portable pro-grade light boxes with D65 option, as you describe, have been rather expensive in my past investigation. Here's a typical recent example: http://www.colorhq.com/Judge-IIS-Por.../jus50u30a.htm

A spectro and software can be had for less.
Yeah, I borrowed one from my company's graphics arts group, recent calibration sticker and everything. The IT department wouldn't loan me a CS2000 though. ;-)

But the I1D3 should be pretty darned close on a simple CCFL LCD tv right out of the box, just picking the right display type.

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post #18 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by deanaco View Post
An instructor from X-Rite indicated to me that Gray Cards are designed to give 18% reflectance measurement. That is their main usage.

They are not necessarily 100% neutral gray, but may be close. They will vary and can only be confirmed to be neutral by a densitometer.
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Next up, then, would be a Munsell neutral value sample from X-Rite, or a smaller format gray scale sample set.


The problem though, for the OP, is that these cards depend on the illumination around them. An I1Pro has an internal light source, but the I1 Display Pro, is a colorimeter and can't directly measure reflective media.

He needs a true neutral grey card -and- a source of D65 light to illuminate it.

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post #19 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies.im gonna stick with the iPad being my reference.It actually does help as its a reference.Nothing else I've ever tried has ever made me "stop adjusting it too get it a little better".
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post #20 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 02:57 PM
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The problem though, for the OP, is that these cards depend on the illumination around them. An I1Pro has an internal light source, but the I1 Display Pro, is a colorimeter and can't directly measure reflective media.

He needs a true neutral grey card -and- a source of D65 light to illuminate it.
A light source close enough for eyeballing a 6500K gray scale would be a 90 CRI or better fluorescent lamp at that color temperature. The Ideal-Lume Pro uses a lamp from X-Rite that has a seven phosphor, D65 formula, patented by GretagMacbeth. It's the lamp used in X-Rite's light boxes. Here's a link to an assortment of bare lamps: http://cinemaquestinc.com/65k.htm . In the I-L Pro it's filtered to bring it's white point closer to video D65.

The CIE D65 daylight simulator specifications are not very tight on white point tolerance. They allow about +/- 1000K when it applies to white point. That's a visible color deviation when applied to video gray scale.
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post #21 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 03:00 PM
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Thanks for the replies.im gonna stick with the iPad being my reference.It actually does help as its a reference.Nothing else I've ever tried has ever made me "stop adjusting it too get it a little better".
To, not too!
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Thanks for the replies.im gonna stick with the iPad being my reference.It actually does help as its a reference.Nothing else I've ever tried has ever made me "stop adjusting it too get it a little better".
iPads and iPhones are calibrated to 7000-7500Kelvin - so thats exactly what you dont want. (see: http://www.displaymate.com/iPad_ShootOut_1.htm ) Or it is exactly what you want?

Because right now metamerism as defined by the CIE is broken on all screen technologies from LCD onwards (newer), so no one would know. Especially no calibrator.
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post #23 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 03:28 PM
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If you have a display with one of the more advanced backlight technologies, they might not jibe up as well as there are no spectral correction data files for quantum dots and some other newer technologies yet..
This is entirely false as well, but you know - this forum...

The truth would be, that spectrums for QD Displays (Samsung is hiding this term for examle, although they are currently producing screens using the technology) are too varied to create a single spectral correction (because there are much fewer limits in designing QDs).

and

That on some, even spectral correction - broke. Of course there is no movement in the industry at all to look into how that was possible to happen.

and

That the spectrums are too narrow for most of them to even use calibration equipment on (CIE 1931 breaks).

You could have picked any one of those three reasons, but you chose to repeat a more convenient myth, which is untrue.

Also no one will correct you, because - you know, ... This forum...

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post #24 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 06:39 PM
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Okie Dokie.

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post #25 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 07:54 PM
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This is entirely false as well, but you know - this forum...

The truth would be, that spectrums for QD Displays (Samsung is hiding this term for examle, although they are currently producing screens using the technology) are too varied to create a single spectral correction (because there are much fewer limits in designing QDs).

and

That on some, even spectral correction - broke. Of course there is no movement in the industry at all to look into how that was possible to happen.

and

That the spectrums are too narrow for most of them to even use calibration equipment on (CIE 1931 breaks).

You could have picked any one of those three reasons, but you chose to repeat a more convenient myth, which is untrue.

Also no one will correct you, because - you know, ... This forum...
Have you offered any practical solutions for working with these issues, to help display users approach image fidelity?
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Quote:
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Have you offered any practical solutions for working with these issues, to help display users approach image fidelity?
He's got his own thread for discussing this "issue" and hasn't managed to convince anyone that this is actually a problem with today's technology. Give it a read. I guess that thread wasn't exciting enough anymore since the readers have gotten used to his rhetoric so he's branching out.
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post #27 of 57 Old 04-16-2015, 08:27 PM
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He's got his own thread for discussing this "issue" and hasn't managed to convince anyone that this is actually a problem with today's technology. Give it a read. I guess that thread wasn't exciting enough anymore since the readers have gotten used to his rhetoric so he's branching out.
Pedantic ranting without offering useful solutions is just self-indulgent. Excessive self-indulgence is not a virtue, it's a character flaw.
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There are no useful solutions. The whole "color calibration" system is broken.
Petty, but this is the current state.

I don't fault Apple or any other manufacturer for not adhering to industry standards at that point.

They are optimizing for what people gravitate towards - and that is a more bluish white which they know from their laundry detergent commercials (optical brighteners). Color accuracy is something that no one in the industry can produce right now - so go for personal preference instead.

This is the "fix" as of now.

You asked "What does D65 look like?" and the answer is no one in here - without a CRT or maybe a plasma screen beside his head actually knows. On LCDs, OLEDs, QD Displays, it is open for debate. Because most people will disagree what they are seeing (not directly connected to the "what color is that dress" meme). And the color matching function all calibrators use, will no even agree with the mean for all of their perceptions anymore.

To put it simply - on those screen technologies, whatever calibrators are measuring doest go together with what people are seeing.

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post #29 of 57 Old 04-17-2015, 10:27 AM
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On my post above which is slightly off topic as this one is, I wanted to do a rough verification of my 3 year old meter without spending a huge amount of money. Noon sun on a cloudless day is suppose to be close to 6500K. Not an exact measure for sure, but probably good enough for verification. I had to use the neutral gray/white card because even with the filter on my iD3 would not wok looking directly at the sun.

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post #30 of 57 Old 04-17-2015, 10:29 AM
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Not really.

The probability of observer metameric failure increases as the r,g,b emitters become more purely centered on a single wavelength each.

The CIE research, even in 1931, however was based on mercury vapor lamps and monochromator to setup the color matching functions. So beleive it or not, narrow band RGB has been part of the research from the very beginning.

Some of our common tools are challenged by new technology. Colorimeters in particular, have difficulty measuring color temperature as the light sources become more centered on single wavelengths. Other than laser, none of the consumer sources have quite hit that yet. QD's are probably the next closest thing to laser at this point.

All the wide CCFL, RGB LED and most OLED can be corrected with a spectral data file. At least that's what the math says.

But the OP's question wasn't that hard to answer. A photo viewing booth with D65 lamps, or a well-known display type, like a CCFL or white LED lit LCD, or a plasma display, aligned to D65 with a suitable instrument, is plenty good.

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