Free LightSpace DPS - Manual Display Calibration - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 82 Old 07-22-2017, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFC View Post
With one of the recent updates, we're allowed to go full screen with the java client app.
The problem is that it seems to only go full screen on the main display, and can't be done on the extended display...
Ah, we'll have to look into that.
Thanks for the feedback.

Steve

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post #62 of 82 Old 07-22-2017, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
If you build a new ST2084 colour space, with the multiplier active, you can use that as a target for manual calibration.
All the multiplier does is 'pretend' that the display is 'brighter' than it really is, by the multiplier factor - so every measurement value is affected.

Steve
I get that. My original question was what multiplier to use for the specific situation I described. You responded by saying I can't do it manually. And now you are simply describing the function that I am fully aware of.
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post #63 of 82 Old 07-22-2017, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhn View Post
I get that. My original question was what multiplier to use for the specific situation I described. You responded by saying I can't do it manually. And now you are simply describing the function that I am fully aware of.
Sorry - busy travelling, and not really thinking...

But, there is no answer, as the whole concept of a multiplier is based on guesstimation...

You should just use what works best for your particular display configuration.

Steve
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post #64 of 82 Old 07-22-2017, 08:42 AM
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No problem. I appreciate all your contributions.

And Understood on your answer. Your site mentions a 10x multiplier for projectors but wasn't sure what the rationale was for that.

And feel free to wait until you are home and rested. Nothing urgent. Safe travels...


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post #65 of 82 Old 07-22-2017, 11:36 PM - Thread Starter
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The 10x is used as a guide as that is the basis for Dolby projection on their 102 nit HDR projection systems (I think its 102 nits - as I say, travelling...)

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post #66 of 82 Old 07-29-2017, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFC View Post
Hey Steve,


With one of the recent updates, we're allowed to go full screen with the java client app.
The problem is that it seems to only go full screen on the main display, and can't be done on the extended display.
I'm using a laptop, extended to my display for measurement, and trying to use the java client as you suggested above.
I can maximize it to the extended display, but that leaves the info bar up. When I double click it to get it full screen, it moves the patch to the laptop display.


Thanks,
CFC
Please drop me a direct e-mail.
We have a 'Beta' for you to test that 'may' fix the Java App full screen issue.
(I'm travelling so have not been able to test myself...)

Steve

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post #67 of 82 Old 07-31-2017, 01:27 PM
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First time calibrator with newbie questions (after reading idiot's guide to manual cal):

- I have an i1display pro--do i absolutely need to profile this meter in order to begin? I don't own or plan to own a reference meter.
- Do I need to change any options in the Probe Options if I'm not profiling the meter?
- For a regular LCD TV (LG UJ6300 4K LED TV), do i just touch these items (luminance range [set to 0.05 to 120 for a bright room], display type [LCD?], calibration settings [white LED?]
- Do i need to adjust integration time at all [using the hdmi port on my laptop, should i bump to 0.75?]
- My luminance target is not 'correct' when selecting different grayscale %'s.... do i need to calibrate gamma? I only selected 2.2 in the TV settings. I.e. my actual at 100% and 80% gets close to target but anything under that, the actual is lower than target

Other notes
- After several hours of research, i found out i need to use madvrtweaker to set my 0-255 range on my intel 4000 graphics card.... that was definitely not clear, since the setting on the intel display properties did not want to take the "full" range even after selected
- Using the app w/ a chromecast only allows 25 patches.... 9.99 for full use which i was not aware of until after installing
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post #68 of 82 Old 07-31-2017, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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No, you do not need to match an i1D3 probe to a Spectro, if you do not want to.
And yes, those LS/probe settings for your TV should be fine.
Integration time should be set to give the most stable readings, with the lowest time.
(You'll probably have to experiment, bit 1.25 is often a good start point)
If your display doesn't have an accurate gamma, the values measured will be 'out'.
(You need to have the correct Target Colour Space too - for 2.2 Gamma you need sRGB, as Rec709 is 2.4)
You should not need MadVRTweaker, as 0-255 is wrong for a TV, as all TV source footage is 16-235, and the output of the graphics card will set the range correctly via EDID communication.
The LightSpace Connect App 'free' limitations are defined on the website page: http://www.lightillusion.com/lightspace_connect.html

£ Free 25 patch limit
(Fee charged for Unlimited license)

Hope that helps.

Steve

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post #69 of 82 Old 07-31-2017, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
And yes, those LS/probe settings for your TV should be fine.
What LS/probe setting should be used for projectors (JVC LCoS)?
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post #70 of 82 Old 07-31-2017, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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There are no 'default' settings for any display.
You need to set them based on the needs/requirements of the display's light source/back light, and sync requirements.
With D-ILA I tend to use LCD, with a longer Integration time (around 1.75), although Burst or AIO can give good results too.
The Min/Max Luma values in 'Options' should be set to the values the display can achieve, or the value you want to achieve, so long as they are within the displays actual capabilities.

Any help?

Steve
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post #71 of 82 Old 07-31-2017, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
With D-ILA I tend to use LCD, with a longer Integration time (around 1.75), although Burst or AIO can give good results too.
I did try AIO but got an error message saying the probe does not support AIO. (I was using an i1D3).
Quote:
The Min/Max Luma values in 'Options' should be set to the values the display can achieve, or the value you want to achieve, so long as they are within the displays actual capabilities.
I have already set the projector's iris to give me the target luminance of 50 nits. For Min/Max I just click on Update and let LS measure the black level and white level.
Quote:
Any help?
Yes, thank you.
I have a number of comments on the Idiot's Guide and will post them in the next day or two, after sorting them out.
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post #72 of 82 Old 07-31-2017, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
No, you do not need to match an i1D3 probe to a Spectro, if you do not want to.
And yes, those LS/probe settings for your TV should be fine.
Integration time should be set to give the most stable readings, with the lowest time.
(You'll probably have to experiment, bit 1.25 is often a good start point)
If your display doesn't have an accurate gamma, the values measured will be 'out'.
(You need to have the correct Target Colour Space too - for 2.2 Gamma you need sRGB, as Rec709 is 2.4)
You should not need MadVRTweaker, as 0-255 is wrong for a TV, as all TV source footage is 16-235, and the output of the graphics card will set the range correctly via EDID communication.
The LightSpace Connect App 'free' limitations are defined on the website page: http://www.lightillusion.com/lightspace_connect.html

£ Free 25 patch limit
(Fee charged for Unlimited license)

Hope that helps.

Steve
I created the custom color space using the guide and used 2.2, but i guess i should be using sRGB, so that makes sense.

I re-read through that legal black section multiple times along with the pointer to direct HDMI, etc, and i guess i missed that it doesn't matter for calibration. I was just trying to set black and white levels according to the guide and was trying to get that nailed down.

Thanks--i see that now for the patch limit. Since i thought i needed the 0-255, i thought i'd use my chromecast as the TPG. Guess i can just do that from the local laptop.
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post #73 of 82 Old 08-01-2017, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I did try AIO but got an error message saying the probe does not support AIO. (I was using an i1D3).
That means you have a RevA probe - only RevB have the AIO mode...

Steve

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post #74 of 82 Old 08-02-2017, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Thanks Dominic, have made the obvious changes/corrections.
Here's the second batch of my comments, two years after the first:
[EDIT: I wrote the comments in a Word document and the formatting is lost in the copy-and-paste. I have attach the original Word document which may be slightly easier to read.]

LightSpace Manual Calibration Manual
Here are some “Idiot’s” comments and questions on the “Idiot’s Guide”. Some are admittedly very minor quibbles. (I skipped over the Probe Matching section).
General comment. To be truly an “Idiot’s Guide”, it should use the same terminology as the program interface itself. As an example, it may not be obvious to an idiot user that Colour Standard Target on the UI is the same as the Target Colour Space in the guide. I will provide some specific examples below (flagged with ***).
THE TOOLBOX
- It may be more logical to move “Calibration Discs” section right after “Patch Generator”, before “Calibration Test Patterns”.
Pre-Calibration Profile
- On can warm up the probe and the display in the same 20-30 min period. The current wording seems to imply one after the other (total 40-60 min).
- *** “Open the 'Calibration Interface'”. Provide step-by-step instruction, i.e., “/Tools/Calibration/Calibration Interface”, or add icon for Calibration Interface to make it easier for new users to identify it
- *** “Select 'Probe Options'” should be described as “Select Setups Options” to match the UI.
- “Double click the small 'Patch Window' to open the free-floating patch window”. “Patch Window” should be “‘Patch Color’ window”. It only requires a single click, not a double-click.
- “such as 0.05 Nits Min, and 100 Nits Max, as is defined ideal for a Grade-1 professional display”. For home theatre applications one would aim for the blackest black the display can produce, not some fixed level like 0.05 nits. Thus the Min and Max Luminance values are best measured using the Update button (and the Max Luminance adjusted to 100 nits).
- *** “target Colour Space” is labelled “Color Standard Target” in the UI.
- It may not be clear to a new user where the “Zoom widget window” is. Nothing is labelled as such.
- RGB stimulus level 166, 166, 166 is white (or grey). How can it show “wider gamut especially in blue”.
- “ The various 'Filters' can be used to view specific colour measurement data”. The Stimulus Levels and Delta-E filters don’t seem to work. All points are displayed regardless of these filters.
- In the Delta-E graph and Delta-E Distribution graphs, the blue line and green lines are presumably for CIE 1976 and CIE 2000 respectively, but they are not labelled.
- There doesn’t seem to be any correlation between the Delta-E graph and the dE dist graph. Is one for grey scale and the other for colours?
- Under “Bad Gamma” graph. “as small patch size” should be “a small patch size”.
- I’m not sure how to interpret the “Bad RGB Separation” plot. If it’s intended to show issue of “when an input colour change that should affect only a single colour channel also causes changes within the other colour channels”, one would need to see at least 3 plots, each with only one colour changing.
Ted’s LightSpace CMS Calibration Disc.
- The statement “In that case adjust the contrast until your see the last 253 bar barely flashing” seems to contradict the following paragraph, which says “calibrating a home TV to 'allow' for Super White is just limiting the display unnecessarily, with no 'image' benefit at all - in fact, the exact opposite.”.
Selecting the Best Picture Mode.
- On many TVs, each Picture Mode has its own Backlight, Contrast, Brightness etc.; i.e., there is no “Global” adjustments so the Picture Mode should be selected before any adjustments can be made.
SET GAMMA.
- “open 'Convert Colour Space'”. Provide step-by-step instruction, i.e., “/Tools/Colour Space/Convert Colour Space”, or add icon for Colour Space Conversion for direct access.
- “…and compare the profile results with the desired Gamma target”. I find it difficult to do that using DPS, as there doesn’t seem to be a plot that shows the gamma of the measured profile (e.g., shows that the current profile has a 2.1 gamma when the desired gamma is 2.4).
- I find the Step function user interface not very intuitive. The software only “observes” the step values when the user clicks on a blank portion of the slider, with the result that it’s hard to get to the top step (as only a very small space is left by then). Another minor point – when the sliders are at 0, click % would shift them up, which shouldn’t happen.
[EDIT: New comment added]If the user changes the step value (e.g., from 10% to 20%), there is no Apply button to have DPS use the new value. One has to use the Enter key.
- **For the Measurement function, suggest that the downward arrow be used to select the sub function (Measure; Measure & Log etc.), and the main button to directly initiate the operations. Currently one has to do a click-scroll-click for every single measurement.
SET GREY SCALE BALANCE
- “If the RGB bars are equal height, but above or below the centre line it shows the Colour is correct, but the Luminance is incorrect (high or low).” It should be pointed out that, for 2-point controls, only the colour is relevant, not the luminance levels at 20% and 80%.
• “After Grey Scale Balance has been set, go back and re-verify Gamma as it is likely it will have changed. This is because if all three RGB channels are raised or lowered in relative unison, the 'brightness' at that point in the grey scale will be altered, as for a Gamma correction.” For this particular reason, it’s better to adjust the grey scale first, and then the gamma. Adjusting grey scale always affects the gamma, but not the other way round.
• “using the RGB Low controls to again hit the required xy values, and place the 'cross' directly in the centre of the Zoom Widget, and null-out the bars”. For two-point controls, the objective is to get the correct overall grey scale (as measured at two “representative” points, typically 20% and 80%). Thus the adjustments are relative, adjusting at most 2 controls to achieve R=G=B. One should not use 2-point controls to achieve the “absolute” luminance levels. A subsequent paragraph in the Guide actually describes this correctly:” When adjusting RGB Low values the rule of thumb is to only raise the necessary RGB values to attain Grey Scale Balance.”
• “double and triple check with the BrightnessCal image to check for possible crushing after any RGB High adjustments.” RGB High adjustments should be RGB Low adjustments.
• “This is because if all three RGB channels are raised or lowered in relative unison, the 'brightness' at that point in the grey scale will be altered, as for a Gamma correction”. The gamma will be affected if any channel is raised or lowered, not just when all three colours are adjusted. Green has the biggest impact, but Red and Blue will also have some impact.

SET GAMUT & COLOUR
- “Luminance (Y) is specified as a percentage”. They are actually specified as fractional values rather than percentages (which would be 21.26%, 71.52%, 7.22% for R, G, B respectively.)
• “As with the previous 'Colour' control, select Red, Green, Blue, and also Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow in turn, and adjust the associated display controls to correct the probe measurement reading to match the Target chromaticity (xy) values.” It’s also important to ensure correct Y values in addition to xy.
Attached Files
File Type: zip LightSpace Manual Calibration Manual.zip (17.5 KB, 23 views)

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-02-2017 at 12:34 PM.
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post #75 of 82 Old 08-02-2017, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow - that gives me something to go over!



I'll go through everything and do the corrections - much appreciated!

Steve

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post #76 of 82 Old 08-02-2017, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Great - have made as many changes/updates to the webpage I think I can...
Actually, all but a couple made perfect sense.
(Those that didn't I'm still thinking about...)
And the WIBNI ideas I've added to our development plans.

The time you spent is much appreciated!

Steve

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post #77 of 82 Old 08-02-2017, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Great - have made as many changes/updates to the webpage I think I can...
Actually, all but a couple made perfect sense.
(Those that didn't I'm still thinking about...)
And the WIBNI ideas I've added to our development plans.

The time you spent is much appreciated!

Steve
I'll be much more brief than Dominic :
- You need to correct the x chromaticity value for red from "0.06400" to "0.6400" in the table.
- This statement is unclear : "In the image below the Target for 50% is 21.99 Nits, and the display is presently showing 22.82 Nits, so needs to be raised."


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Last edited by CFC; 08-02-2017 at 02:38 PM.
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post #78 of 82 Old 08-02-2017, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Ha!
How did I, and Dominic, miss that!



Change done!

Anyone else spotted any obvious ****-ups?

Steve

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post #79 of 82 Old 08-02-2017, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Ha!
How did I, and Dominic, miss that!
Actually I did see the second one
Quote:
In the image below the Target for 50% is 21.99 Nits, and the display is presently showing 22.82 Nits, so needs to be raised.
However, since that statement was in the Adjusting Gamma section, I simply interpreted it to mean Gamma needs to be raised.-
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post #80 of 82 Old 08-02-2017, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I was actually referring to the 0.06400 chromaticity value

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post #81 of 82 Old 05-13-2019, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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As Dominic has just flagged-up the name change, yes - LightSpace DPS is now called LightSpace ZRO.

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post #82 of 82 Old 07-05-2019, 01:00 PM
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free version vs. output

Hello, interested in getting in to home calibration and starting cheaply (I've started hobbies and overspent initially, then not consistently followed through with them).
If using a laptop with the laptop generated patches, are you limited to RGB (at least for bit accurate output)? Referring to the cheap pattern generator thread.
Also, recommendations for likely successful laptops. Sounds like a basic Intel graphics is OK?
If you really want the YCbCr output with the free version, then Ted's disc is best?

Edit: No one need answer on my account, as I purchased Ted's disc. As I read more it became clear that such use should be RGB, and I would rather simulate the real chain for blu-ray movies. Others may want to know the answer to the laptop question (for likely success with RGB) but perhaps in the cheap pattern generator thread ...

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Last edited by highmr; 07-09-2019 at 06:33 AM. Reason: purchased disc
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