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post #1621 of 1659 Old 03-19-2019, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RTracey View Post
Given Spectracal has decided to drop Home Enthusiast, I'm now left considering other options.... So, one consideration is to switch to Chromapure, although Tom tells me the meter I have, the C6HDR 2000, is not supported.
From what I understand it's not that the meter isn't supported (it's not a limitation of ChromaPure), it's that Spectracal alter their hardware whenever possible to only make it work with their software. They've been doing that for as long as I can remember, starting with the Chroma 5. From what I remember it was a feature that the meter manufacturer offered and as a policy Spectracal would always choose the feature to lock such that only their software worked with the meter, while ChromaPure did not such that the meter would work with any software that supported it.

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post #1622 of 1659 Old 03-19-2019, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by kal View Post
From what I understand it's not that the meter isn't supported (it's not a limitation of ChromaPure), it's that Spectracal alter their hardware whenever possible to only make it work with their software. They've been doing that for as long as I can remember, starting with the Chroma 5. From what I remember it was a feature that the meter manufacturer offered and as a policy Spectracal would always choose the feature to lock such that only their software worked with the meter, while ChromaPure did not such that the meter would work with any software that supported it.

Kal
Thanks Kal. I understand that’s the situation and I wasn’t trying to assign blame anywhere, certainly not to Chromapure.

So my question remains; is there a way to allow the C6 to work with Chromapure?

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post #1623 of 1659 Old 03-19-2019, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RTracey View Post
Thanks Kal. I understand that’s the situation and I wasn’t trying to assign blame anywhere, certainly not to Chromapure.

So my question remains; is there a way to allow the C6 to work with Chromapure?
Back in the day SpectraCal used to unlock their meters if you asked them nicely. Not sure if they still do that. No harm in trying.

That said (thinking about this some more) I'm not sure if that'll even work given that Spectracal applies the same generic corrections to all C6s (all units have the same correction even though they will all by nature be different). They're not individually calibrated like the ones that ChromaPure offers. More in my SpectraCal C6 vs. ChromaPure Display 3 PRO FAQ.

Good luck!

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post #1624 of 1659 Old 03-19-2019, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kal View Post
Back in the day SpectraCal used to unlock their meters if you asked them nicely. Not sure if they still do that. No harm in trying.



That said (thinking about this some more) I'm not sure if that'll even work given that Spectracal applies the same generic corrections to all C6s (all units have the same correction even though they will all by nature be different). They're not individually calibrated like the ones that ChromaPure offers. More in my SpectraCal C6 vs. ChromaPure Display 3 PRO FAQ.



Good luck!



Kal


This is not true. We are the only licensed company that can create our own EDR’s. They are not simple 3 x 3 matrices. Each meter has its own spectral characteristics saved inside of meter, that is then combined with the EDR for each display technology.

You can read x-rite’s patent on it.

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post #1625 of 1659 Old 03-19-2019, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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@TomHuffman ; do you think the gamut reporting is giving good information in this case? It is reporting a gamut of >110% of REC709 but it's quite clearly not even hitting REC709. Does it really need qualifying a bit more what this is?


The presentation leads to discussions of this particular display covering more than REC709; and while true in some directions it doesn't actually cover all of REC709 (at least, not as measured here). Surely it would make more sense to report the size of the intersecting gamut in any case where there are target gamut primaries are not all achieved by the display. Otherwise there are all kinds of bogus gamuts we could dream up that would look like >100% REC709 by this measure, but be pretty dreadful.
There are two related, but distinct, issues here: the size of the gamut and the accuracy of the gamut relative to a specified standard. The gamut's size is 110% of Rec. 709, but its accuracy is quite poor. It is oversaturated in the green-red axis and undersaturated in the green-blue axis. The reported size of the gamut is agnostic about its accuracy. It seems to me that to properly characterize the gamut we need both bits of information, which we have. 110% of the size, but with a rather large dEs for the primaries. That tells you what you need to know. It is a fairly large gamut that misses the 709 targets by a significant amount, overstating some 709 colors and understating others.

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post #1626 of 1659 Old 03-19-2019, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
“111% of Rec. 709” is definitely misleading, and would be false advertising if claimed by the display manufacturer. To me it would only make sense to report the “intersecting gamut”. The fact that it exceeds Rec. 709 in some directions is already acknowledged in the “% of DCI-P3” and “% of Rec. 2020” figures.
Taken on its own, that one bit of information would be misleading, but you are not left with that data point in isolation. You also have a full spectrum of data that indicates the accuracy of the gamut. That's what makes it different from a manufacturer's spec.

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post #1627 of 1659 Old 03-19-2019, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
This is not true. We are the only licensed company that can create our own EDR’s. They are not simple 3 x 3 matrices. Each meter has its own spectral characteristics saved inside of meter, that is then combined with the EDR for each display technology.

You can read x-rite’s patent on it.
I may have not explained correctly. My point was that the corrections in the C6 are generic (the same corrections are used for all C6 meters), and thus do not accommodate meter-to-meter differences. The rest of what you wrote above is not related to that fact.

That's neither here nor there however as the OP would just like his C6 meter unlocked so that he can use it with other software. If you can assist with this as you work that company, please do.

Kal

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post #1628 of 1659 Old 03-19-2019, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RTracey View Post
Thanks Kal. I understand that’s the situation and I wasn’t trying to assign blame anywhere, certainly not to Chromapure.

So my question remains; is there a way to allow the C6 to work with Chromapure?
Not that I am aware of. They are engineered to function only with SpectraCal software so long as you use the X-Rite drivers, which we do. Argyll gets around this limitation by not using X-Rite drivers in favor of drivers of their own design.

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post #1629 of 1659 Old 03-19-2019, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
110% of the size, but with a rather large dEs for the primaries. That tells you what you need to know.
Sorry but I can't quite agree. 110% of the size with a large dE can still mean the gamut exceeds Rec 709 and can be reigned in with CMS adjustments or a 3DLUT. It does not say anything about the gamut being short in some areas, which typically cannot be corrected.
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post #1630 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry but I can't quite agree. 110% of the size with a large dE can still mean the gamut exceeds Rec 709 and can be reigned in with CMS adjustments or a 3DLUT. It does not say anything about the gamut being short in some areas, which typically cannot be corrected.
I think you are asking too much of this single metric. I am unaware of any implication of gamut size that includes correctability.

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post #1631 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
There are two related, but distinct, issues here: the size of the gamut and the accuracy of the gamut relative to a specified standard. The gamut's size is 110% of Rec. 709, but its accuracy is quite poor. It is oversaturated in the green-red axis and undersaturated in the green-blue axis. The reported size of the gamut is agnostic about its accuracy. It seems to me that to properly characterize the gamut we need both bits of information, which we have. 110% of the size, but with a rather large dEs for the primaries. That tells you what you need to know. It is a fairly large gamut that misses the 709 targets by a significant amount, overstating some 709 colors and understating others.
I guess they are distinct, but there is no distinction being made in the presentation. This is the first time I've seen this number presented like this in cal SW. I have not much experience of Calman so can't comment on that, but both LS and DisplayCAL would report how much of the actual 709 gamut is covered.

I disagree in that I don't see that the number reported "how large it is the gamut area relative to a REC709 gamut triangle, irrespective of whether REC709 is actually covered" has any practical use whatsoever in assessing the display capabilities as it could represent a completely bogus gamut, totally uncorrectable to REC709. I mean, what can you do with this information at present, other than misunderstand and unwittingly misrepresent the performance of your display?! It just seems like trivia.

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post #1632 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
This is not true. We are the only licensed company that can create our own EDR’s. They are not simple 3 x 3 matrices. Each meter has its own spectral characteristics saved inside of meter, that is then combined with the EDR for each display technology.
Yes, but anyone can create a .ccss file :-)
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You can read x-rite’s patent on it.
Given that I publicly suggested exactly this calibration scheme some time before X-Rites patent application, I don't think it covers what you think it does.

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post #1633 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 05:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I guess they are distinct, but there is no distinction being made in the presentation. This is the first time I've seen this number presented like this in cal SW. I have not much experience of Calman so can't comment on that, but both LS and DisplayCAL would report how much of the actual 709 gamut is covered.

I disagree in that I don't see that the number reported "how large it is the gamut area relative to a REC709 gamut triangle, irrespective of whether REC709 is actually covered" has any practical use whatsoever in assessing the display capabilities as it could represent a completely bogus gamut, totally uncorrectable to REC709. I mean, what can you do with this information at present, other than misunderstand and unwittingly misrepresent the performance of your display?! It just seems like trivia.
What, exactly, do you think you are supposed to do with this information, regardless of how it is characterized? Since the number itself offers absolutely no guidance as to how the gamut should be corrected, again regardless of how it is characterized, then it is in a real sense trivia. It is a metric offered by display manufacturers to tout their wide gamut displays. It's an advertising hook. That's all. The metric was not even used until 2020 was introduced and manufacturers wanted some way to specify how close the display came to covering, typically, the DCi gamut. Back in the good old days when we were only concerned with 709, I don't recall this figure being touted at all. Most importantly, the calibration of the display proceeds exactly the same regardless of how the wideness of the gamut is calculated, indeed even if the % coverage of the gamut is ignored entirely. It makes absolutely no difference. So, I guess I am a little mystified why you seem so exercised about this relatively trivial issue. If you don't like the way we calculate this--which you obviously don't--then please ignore it. It will have no effect on your calibration efforts.

Come to think of it, since this statistic is generally used to describe coverage of wide gamuts, here's what the same image you showed looks like when it is overlain on a DCi gamut.





All colors fall within the DCi, except the truly bizarre blue that is represented. No commercial display I am aware of can come even close to the 2020 gamut, and you have represented a gamut with a blue primary even MORE saturated than a 2020 blue, which I added to the image. What display is this? It looks like none I have ever encountered.

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post #1634 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by kal View Post
Back in the day SpectraCal used to unlock their meters if you asked them nicely. Not sure if they still do that. No harm in trying.

That said (thinking about this some more) I'm not sure if that'll even work given that Spectracal applies the same generic corrections to all C6s (all units have the same correction even though they will all by nature be different). They're not individually calibrated like the ones that ChromaPure offers. More in my SpectraCal C6 vs. ChromaPure Display 3 PRO FAQ.

Good luck!

Kal
Thanks Kal and Tom. I see Tyler is following this conversation, so if Spectracal will offer to unlock the C6, perhaps he could PM me.

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post #1635 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
The metric was not even used until 2020 was introduced and manufacturers wanted some way to specify how close the display came to covering, typically, the DCi gamut. Back in the good old days when we were only concerned with 709, I don't recall this figure being touted at all.
The metric has been used for years, when people refer to a monitor's percentage coverage of sRGB vs Adobe RGB.
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post #1636 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
What, exactly, do you think you are supposed to do with this information, regardless of how it is characterized? Since the number itself offers absolutely no guidance as to how the gamut should be corrected, again regardless of how it is characterized, then it is in a real sense trivia. It is a metric offered by display manufacturers to tout their wide gamut displays. It's an advertising hook. That's all. The metric was not even used until 2020 was introduced and manufacturers wanted some way to specify how close the display came to covering, typically, the DCi gamut. Back in the good old days when we were only concerned with 709, I don't recall this figure being touted at all. Most importantly, the calibration of the display proceeds exactly the same regardless of how the wideness of the gamut is calculated, indeed even if the % coverage of the gamut is ignored entirely. It makes absolutely no difference. So, I guess I am a little mystified why you seem so exercised about this relatively trivial issue. If you don't like the way we calculate this--which you obviously don't--then please ignore it. It will have no effect on your calibration efforts.

Come to think of it, since this statistic is generally used to describe coverage of wide gamuts, here's what the same image you showed looks like when it is overlain on a DCi gamut.




All colors fall within the DCi, except the truly bizarre blue that is represented. No commercial display I am aware of can come even close to the 2020 gamut, and you have represented a gamut with a blue primary even MORE saturated than a 2020 blue, which I added to the image. What display is this? It looks like none I have ever encountered.
I think the metric has been used for a long time by 3DLUT software.

It can be a very useful number if it is the intersection between the target gamut and the display gamut. If it is this, and it is over 100%, then it means the display should be able to achieve true reference 100% gamut coverage when corrected by a 3DLUT. In fact, that's exactly why the other two apps I mentioned that spit this number out - to explain how much of the target gamut the corrected display should be able to hit. So that number can be quite useful as a ready reckoner, whereas the number displayed in the CP3 UI at the moment really doesn't appear to be able to serve any useful purpose (or at least I can't think of any where the gamut size is interesting at all).

I think getting bogged down in what this display is or not is perhaps at risk of missing the point; but in any case It's a BENQ LK-970 phosphor wheel blue laser, so the blue light component is from the laser direct. It is possible the person taking the measurement doesn't have a 5nm or better spectro (they're not my measurements) so the blue might might well be a little off but BENQs own published data does show the blue is fairly "impressive"... However, that very point again makes the case for how much of a strange metric this is that is being shown at the moment. Here the P3 (and probably 2020) gamut % calculated is being increased by blue colours outside of 2020! How much sense does that make?

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post #1637 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
So, I guess I am a little mystified why you seem so exercised about this relatively trivial issue.
Sorry, I missed this point. I'm not exercised personally, just trying to improve understanding for others. As far as I can see this is the only place I've seen a gamut % ever represented like this (as a geometric size rather than actual coverage of the target gamut, but related back to the size of the target gamut)

It came up as the number from your UI was quoted by a user in another thread as being the gamut coverage of a particular display (quite a reasonable statement for them to make given the presentation of the number) and it seemed miles off from my knowledge of that display, which is why I asked him for the CIE diagram, which showed this.
So I would say on empirical evidence that this has caused some confusion in at least one case.

Anyway, look if you don't agree then fine, it's not going to affect me at all but I'll know to take with a pinch of salt anyone quoting gamut coverage % who is using CP3 unless they show the CIE diagram.

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post #1638 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 06:51 AM
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If it helps, gamut coverage really needs to be the volumetric 3D coverage, not based on the 2D CIE graph.
Using the 2D graph will give an inaccurate figure for most displays.
(The display would have to perfectly linear, and have a gamut that tracks perfectly from black to white.)

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post #1639 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 08:20 AM
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Thanks Kal and Tom. I see Tyler is following this conversation, so if Spectracal will offer to unlock the C6, perhaps he could PM me.
This will never happen, since SpectraCAL will never give support for C6's to other software developers, its locked to work with CalMAN (to limit you buying CalMAN or pay annual fees or re-buy entire CalMAN every year for being up-to-date, using the new CalMAN Home).

The unlocking code for all C6's is exact the same (C6 / C6HDR / C6HDR2000), even if SpectraCAL will provide required info to Tom, and Tom will add support to ChromaPure of all C6 meters, you will not able to select any EDR table of your C6 (or of any i1DisplayPRO Retail or OEM) because ChromaPure is not supporting loading of X-Rite spectral correction files generally, for that reason you will be able to load only the factory default calibration table only.

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The reality is the C6 is JUST an expensive i1D3 OEM, in drag.
It is not different at all.
So save the money, and buy an i1D3 OEM.

If you use it with Calman there are different EDR files available, but as most users will match to a Spectro, what's the point?
(And they are not the only ones with different EDR files as Graeme says, as as we have shown with the WOLED EDR we have just added - and that others can use if they want, unlike the locked Calman EDR files.)

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post #1641 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 10:28 AM
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This will never happen, since SpectraCAL will never give support for C6's to other software developers, its locked to work with CalMAN (to limit you buying CalMAN or pay annual fees or re-buy entire CalMAN every year for being up-to-date, using the new CalMAN Home).

The unlocking code for all C6's is exact the same (C6 / C6HDR / C6HDR2000), even if SpectraCAL will provide required info to Tom, and Tom will add support to ChromaPure of all C6 meters, you will not able to select any EDR table of your C6 (or of any i1DisplayPRO Retail or OEM) because ChromaPure is not supporting loading of X-Rite spectral correction files generally, for that reason you will be able to load only the factory default calibration table only.
Sorry Ted, now I'm confused (or more than I was)....

EDR? I'm guessing the C6 (and i1Display Pro) have a default calibration table; then SpectraCAL adds correction files for different displays (EDR?)

My understanding is ChromaPure does support/work with the i1Display Pro. From your comments it looks like I would need a spectro as well to create my own correction file(s) for my display(s), which I presume will ChromaPure allow?

Do I have this right? Thanks.

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post #1642 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 10:29 AM
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The reality is the C6 is JUST an expensive i1D3 OEM, in drag.
It is not different at all.
So save the money, and buy an i1D3 OEM.

If you use it with Calman there are different EDR files available, but as most users will match to a Spectro, what's the point?
(And they are not the only ones with different EDR files as Graeme says, as as we have shown with the WOLED EDR we have just added - and that others can use if they want, unlike the locked Calman EDR files.)

Steve
Well, I wish... The problem is I already have the C6, with limited options considering SpectraCal's new business model.

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post #1643 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry Ted, now I'm confused (or more than I was)....

EDR? I'm guessing the C6 (and i1Display Pro) have a default calibration table; then SpectraCAL adds correction files for different displays (EDR?)

My understanding is ChromaPure does support/work with the i1Display Pro. From your comments it looks like I would need a spectro as well to create my own correction file(s) for my display(s), which I presume will ChromaPure allow?

Do I have this right? Thanks.
ChromaPure supports two versions of the i1 Display Pro.
1. The stock meter, OEM or retail.
2. The Display 3 PRO, which is a stock meter that has been corrected by high-end spectros for 10 display types and 3 projector types.


You would need your own spectro to correct the stock meter only.

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post #1644 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 04:16 PM
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We are the only licensed company that can create our own EDR’s.
FSI, NEC, Dell, HP, Wacom also.

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post #1645 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
ChromaPure supports two versions of the i1 Display Pro.
2. The Display 3 PRO, which is a stock meter that has been corrected by high-end spectros for 10 display types and 3 projector types.
AFAIK, such corrections are not "in" the meter itself (it seems identical to a stock i1d3 apart from the livery and the unlock code, but of course it's not possible to know if they are specially qualified in some other way just by looking at one). Presumably such corrections are provided in some other fashion to the customer, either as matrix corrections in a file or custom EDR files.

The i1d3 has provision for a small number of correction matrices to be stored in it, but (once again, AFAIK), they are not populated in standard i1d3's or C6's.

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post #1646 of 1659 Old 03-20-2019, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
ChromaPure supports two versions of the i1 Display Pro.
1. The stock meter, OEM or retail.
2. The Display 3 PRO, which is a stock meter that has been corrected by high-end spectros for 10 display types and 3 projector types.


You would need your own spectro to correct the stock meter only.
Much appreciated Tom

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post #1647 of 1659 Old 03-21-2019, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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AFAIK, such corrections are not "in" the meter itself (it seems identical to a stock i1d3 apart from the livery and the unlock code, but of course it's not possible to know if they are specially qualified in some other way just by looking at one). Presumably such corrections are provided in some other fashion to the customer, either as matrix corrections in a file or custom EDR files.

The i1d3 has provision for a small number of correction matrices to be stored in it, but (once again, AFAIK), they are not populated in standard i1d3's or C6's.
That's right. Matrix corrections are stored in ChromaPure license file. The meter itself is left untouched.

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post #1648 of 1659 Old 03-22-2019, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
ChromaPure supports two versions of the i1 Display Pro.
1. The stock meter, OEM or retail.
2. The Display 3 PRO, which is a stock meter that has been corrected by high-end spectros for 10 display types and 3 projector types.


You would need your own spectro to correct the stock meter only.
Sorry Tom, two additional questions:

I gather the corrections for the Display 3 PRO are contained in the ChromaPure license file - so if used with other software, will this meter function as a stock i1 Display Pro (i.e., no corrections), or is it locked up like a C6?

ChromaPure's website lists the i1 Display 3 PRO, and an i1 Display Pro III ("Display 3") bundled with a spectro. Am I correct that the i1 Display Pro III is the OEM version of the i1 Display Pro?

Thanks.

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post #1649 of 1659 Old 03-23-2019, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry Tom, two additional questions:

I gather the corrections for the Display 3 PRO are contained in the ChromaPure license file - so if used with other software, will this meter function as a stock i1 Display Pro (i.e., no corrections), or is it locked up like a C6?

ChromaPure's website lists the i1 Display 3 PRO, and an i1 Display Pro III ("Display 3") bundled with a spectro. Am I correct that the i1 Display Pro III is the OEM version of the i1 Display Pro?

Thanks.
There is no locking. When used with other software it will just be detected as a normal stock i1d3. Yes, the Display 3 PRO is the corrected version and the i1 Display Pro III is just the stock X-Rite meter.

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post #1650 of 1659 Old 03-23-2019, 05:39 AM
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There is no locking. When used with other software it will just be detected as a normal stock i1d3. Yes, the Display 3 PRO is the corrected version and the i1 Display Pro III is just the stock X-Rite meter.
Great, thanks Tom!

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