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post #181 of 1763 Old 01-13-2016, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by svellinis View Post
Tom version 3.1 will be free of charge ?
Yes, point releases are free.

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post #182 of 1763 Old 01-13-2016, 08:09 AM
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Just a couple generic questions.

When choosing in auto calibration to do a Grayscale+125pt gamut calibration, does it actually do a 124pt correction+ 12/21pt calibration, for a total of 136/145 points.

Also what happens, when I choose to reset color gamut settings only and do a grayscale+lut calibration? Will it overwrite the previous grayscale settings on the Radiance?
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post #183 of 1763 Old 01-13-2016, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by svellinis View Post
When select from signal genenerators menu signal intesinty 75 % displayed the 100 % white pattern not 75 % red green and others colors is 75 %
This by design.

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post #184 of 1763 Old 01-13-2016, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Surfdrifter View Post
Just a couple generic questions.

When choosing in auto calibration to do a Grayscale+125pt gamut calibration, does it actually do a 124pt correction+ 12/21pt calibration, for a total of 136/145 points.

Also what happens, when I choose to reset color gamut settings only and do a grayscale+lut calibration? Will it overwrite the previous grayscale settings on the Radiance?
Yes.
If you make manual grayscale adjustments these will overwrite whatever changes were made to auto-cal.

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post #185 of 1763 Old 01-13-2016, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
This by design.
if I'm not mistaken If want to calibrate the color gamut in 100 % or 75 % saturation with 75% intensity must be based on measurements of the 75% white .
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post #186 of 1763 Old 01-13-2016, 02:56 PM
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to automatically calibration to 125 points with lumagen will I get different results if i choose 75 % saturation vs 100 % saturation in color gamut or 75 % intensity vs 100 % ?
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post #187 of 1763 Old 01-13-2016, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Yes.
If you make manual grayscale adjustments these will overwrite whatever changes were made to auto-cal.
It will use as a basis the manual calibration which previously done and the result will be better or will do from the beginning of measurements and adjusting from scratch ?
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post #188 of 1763 Old 01-13-2016, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by svellinis View Post
if I'm not mistaken If want to calibrate the color gamut in 100 % or 75 % saturation with 75% intensity must be based on measurements of the 75% white .
Not with CP3. This has changed. Reference white is always 100%.

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post #189 of 1763 Old 01-13-2016, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by svellinis View Post
to automatically calibration to 125 points with lumagen will I get different results if i choose 75 % saturation vs 100 % saturation in color gamut or 75 % intensity vs 100 % ?
The 75% of Rec. 709 is a pseudo gamut and has one purpose only: to manually calibrate using the Color Management module. That's it. Don't use it for anything else. Immediately after calibrating, switch back to Rec. 709 for all reporting measurements.

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post #190 of 1763 Old 01-13-2016, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
Here's something else I found. Sequential measurements of White with the field meter (haven't tried the reference meter yet) yield substantially different results. eg. First Y reading 142, reselect the White pattern, second reading 92. Subsequent measurements are 92.
Buzz:

I can't reproduce this.

http://www.chromapure.com/bugtest/wh...iteRepeat.html

Are you still seeing this? If so, can you provide more information?

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post #191 of 1763 Old 01-14-2016, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Buzz:

I can't reproduce this.

http://www.chromapure.com/bugtest/wh...iteRepeat.html

Are you still seeing this? If so, can you provide more information?


I just saw this, Tom. I installed CP3 v3.0.3.623 and I am no longer getting the error.

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post #192 of 1763 Old 01-14-2016, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
Not with CP3. This has changed. Reference white is always 100%.

Tom when i try to calibrate with 75% intensity patterns results are wrong you should include a measurement of 75% white.

You can try with the chromapure 2 and the chromapure 3 to see the differences ..
Also when measure 100 % white from white balance gets a different Y value in relation to the measurement of whites from the contrast menu (on /off contrast)

Last edited by svellinis; 01-14-2016 at 09:14 AM.
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post #193 of 1763 Old 01-14-2016, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
This is not the latest version posted on our News page.
If you click on Ted's download you get that odd 3.0.2.41690 version

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
ChromaPure 3.0.3 is now available for download.

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post #194 of 1763 Old 01-14-2016, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by svellinis View Post
Tom when i try to calibrate with 75% intensity patterns results are wrong you should include a measurement of 75% white.

You can try with the chromapure 2 and the chromapure 3 to see the differences ..
Also when measure 100 % white from white balance gets a different Y value in relation to the measurement of whites from the contrast menu (on /off contrast)
There is a bug with 75% intensity and the 75% of Rec. 709 gamut that I discovered yesterday. We'll have a fix for this tonight or tomorrow. It has nothing to do with reference white.
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post #195 of 1763 Old 01-14-2016, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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ChromaPure 3.0.4 Released

We had a slight change in plans. There was some low-hanging fruit of some consequence that I thought we'd go ahead and quickly fix rather than waiting for the next, bigger bug fix build, so we released this early.

The download link and Release Notes for ChromaPure 3.0.4 are on our News page.
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post #196 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 12:07 AM
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Tom when measure 100 % white from white balance gets a different Y value in relation to the measurement of whites from the contrast menu (on /off contrast)
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post #197 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
We had a slight change in plans. There was some low-hanging fruit of some consequence that I thought we'd go ahead and quickly fix rather than waiting for the next, bigger bug fix build, so we released this early.

The download link and Release Notes for ChromaPure 3.0.4 are on our News page.

The results in 100 % and 75 % saturation when patterns has 75 % intesity are still wrong. I installed version 3.0.4 you should include a measurement of 75% white.

Attachments are with 100% saturation and 75 % intensity
Lightness in red is +2.3 % in cp2 vs 0.9 % in cp3
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post #198 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 12:54 AM
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one more bug ?
When color space are RGB


there is an error with the values in percentages of colors.
Attachments are with 100% saturation and 100 % intensity
Attached Thumbnails
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post #199 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 02:05 AM
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Is it just me or other thinking the same here...CP3 is simply not ready for official release yet. There's so many bugs reported in this new software. I really regret paying for it.

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post #200 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rolling01 View Post
If you click on Ted's download you get that odd 3.0.2.41690 version
Hi, this link will download the latest version uploaded by Tom. For example if you click at that link now, it will download to you the ChromaPure 3.0.4 version.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
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post #201 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by svellinis View Post
The results in 100 % and 75 % saturation when patterns has 75 % intesity are still wrong. I installed version 3.0.4 you should include a measurement of 75% white.

Attachments are with 100% saturation and 75 % intensity
Lightness in red is +2.3 % in cp2 vs 0.9 % in cp3
You are mistaken. Your methodology of taking measurements in v2 and then comparing them with similar measurements in v3, noticing a difference and then proclaiming that there is a bug in v3 assumes that v2 and v3 work the same. They don't, at least in this respect.

In v2 a 75% lightness error would be determined by a measurement of 75% white and a measurement of a 75% color (say, red) dividing one by the other to obtain the relative luminance, comparing that with the target luminance, and then converting the luminance of both to lightness, and then calculating the % error.

In v3 it works the same way EXCEPT instead of using 75% white we use 100% white and then use gamma to determine what the target luminance should be. For example, if the gamma is 2.22, then the target luminance for Rec. 709 red is 0.1123 of reference white (0.75^2.22 * 0.2126).

These two methods provide similar, but not identical results. The second method is technically more correct, which is why we switched to it.

In your example,
v2
Test 16.991 / 75.772 = 0.2242
Reference = 0.2126
0.2242 luminance = 54.474 lightness
0.2126 luminance = 53.233 lightness
(54.474 / 53.233) - 1 = 2.3% error

v3
Test 17 / 148.72 = 0.1143
Reference @ 2.22 gamma = 0.1123 (see above)
0.1143 luminance = 40.295 lightness
0.1123 luminance = 39.965 lightness
(40.295 / 39.965) - 1 = 0.8% error

So, yes, these two methods--and they are both valid methods--yield slightly (1.5%) different results. That is by design. BTW, this is the way auto-cal has ALWAYS worked. We just made the application consistent in this regard.

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post #202 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 02:29 AM
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Hi Tom,

A question about the Color Management Module.

According to the RGB Triplets, the first measurement is the 100% White and the following ones are 75% Intensity of each Color (RGBYCM).

When the user want to measure the 100% Intensity of the Colors, do you believe that you have to add a selection about this to the ChromaPure Application Settings (to select 100% or 75%), for the engine to be able to calculate the dE and Charts correctly?

The same will be needed for the 75%/100% Intensity of 75% Saturation REC.709 Gamut selection.

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post #203 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 02:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
A question about the Color Management Module.

According to the RGB Triplets, the first measurement is the 100% White and the following ones are 75% Intensity of each Color (RGBYCM).

When the user want to measure the 100% Intensity of the Colors, do you believe that you have to add a selection about this to the ChromaPure Application Settings (to select 100% or 75%), for the engine to be able to calculate the dE and Charts correctly?

The same will be needed for the 75%/100% Intensity of 75% Saturation REC.709 Gamut selection.
That already exists on the Home page. The Intensity (100%/75%) selector is global.

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post #204 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
That already exists on the Home page. The Intensity (100%/75%) selector is global.
Perfect!

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post #205 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
You are mistaken. Your methodology of taking measurements in v2 and then comparing them with similar measurements in v3, noticing a difference and then proclaiming that there is a bug in v3 assumes that v2 and v3 work the same. They don't, at least in this respect.

In v2 a 75% lightness error would be determined by a measurement of 75% white and a measurement of a 75% color (say, red) dividing one by the other to obtain the relative luminance, comparing that with the target luminance, and then converting the luminance of both to lightness, and then calculating the % error.

In v3 it works the same way EXCEPT instead of using 75% white we use 100% white and then use gamma to determine what the target luminance should be. For example, if the gamma is 2.22, then the target luminance for Rec. 709 red is 0.1123 of reference white (0.75^2.22 * 0.2126).

These two methods provide similar, but not identical results. The second method is technically more correct, which is why we switched to it.

In your example,
v2
Test 16.991 / 75.772 = 0.2242
Reference = 0.2126
0.2242 luminance = 54.474 lightness
0.2126 luminance = 53.233 lightness
(54.474 / 53.233) - 1 = 2.3% error

v3
Test 17 / 148.72 = 0.1143
Reference @ 2.22 gamma = 0.1123 (see above)
0.1143 luminance = 40.295 lightness
0.1123 luminance = 39.965 lightness
(40.295 / 39.965) - 1 = 0.8% error

So, yes, these two methods--and they are both valid methods--yield slightly (1.5%) different results. That is by design. BTW, this is the way auto-cal has ALWAYS worked. We just made the application consistent in this regard.
1) Why assume that the gamma of 75% white will be right ? If the target is 2.2 but in fact the gamma is 2.4....
2) Forget the comparison in the values between the two versions of the chromapure.
Look the values between the chromapure 3 and dEweb.xls the calculations in this is correct .
Τhe chromapure 3 does not gives different values gives wrong values.
Can the deviation is small but is there.


Is there any answer on the other comments i have made about different Y value in relation to the measurement of whites from the contrast and rgb color space
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post #206 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 03:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svellinis View Post
1) Why assume that the gamma of 75% white will be right ? If the target is 2.2 but in fact the gamma is 2.4....
2) Forget the comparison in the values between the two versions of the chromapure.
Look the values between the chromapure 3 and dEweb.xls the calculations in this is correct .
Τhe chromapure 3 does not gives different values gives wrong values.
Can the deviation is small but is there.


Is there any answer on the other comments i have made about different Y value in relation to the measurement of whites from the contrast and rgb color space
You really don't understand this. The gamma is not fixed. It is selectable in options and it is application-wide. I only used 2.22 as an example. If you want to use a different gamma, then do so. The dEweb.xls document was authored by me when we were doing this the v2 way.

Again, v2 (and dEweb.xls) give somewhat different values for lightness errors than what v3 provides. The differences are small and based on a conscious design choice. It is not a bug.

It is 4:00AM in the morning here. You might want to give me a little time to investigate these before commenting.

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post #207 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
You really don't understand this. The gamma is not fixed. It is selectable in options and it is application-wide. I only used 2.22 as an example. If you want to use a different gamma, then do so. The dEweb.xls document was authored by me when we were doing this the v2 way.

Again, v2 (and dEweb.xls) give somewhat different values for lightness errors than what v3 provides. The differences are small and based on a conscious design choice. It is not a bug.

It is 4:00AM in the morning here. You might want to give me a little time to investigate these before commenting.
then it is the wrong choice in the design.

Regarding the gamma i mean not the gamma target but this

90 % white gamma 2.0

80 % white gamma 2.2

70 % white gamma 2.3
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post #208 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
You really don't understand this. The gamma is not fixed. It is selectable in options and it is application-wide. I only used 2.22 as an example. If you want to use a different gamma, then do so. The dEweb.xls document was authored by me when we were doing this the v2 way.

Again, v2 (and dEweb.xls) give somewhat different values for lightness errors than what v3 provides. The differences are small and based on a conscious design choice. It is not a bug.

It is 4:00AM in the morning here. You might want to give me a little time to investigate these before commenting.

Tom, u better turn in...thanks for staying up so late to answer the queries here. There's always another day to investigate.


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post #209 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 04:06 AM
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It is 4:00AM in the morning here. You might want to give me a little time to investigate these before commenting.
Sorry here is noon forgotten that there is dawning thanks for the replay

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post #210 of 1763 Old 01-15-2016, 04:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svellinis View Post
then it is the wrong choice in the design.

Regarding the gamma i mean not the gamma target but this

90 % white gamma 2.0

80 % white gamma 2.2

70 % white gamma 2.3
I have no idea what this means.

You can select a fixed power law gamma in which case the reference gamma will be the same at all video levels OR you can select a calculated gamma, such as BT.1886 or sRGB, in which case the reference gamma will be different at different video levels.

You cannot select some bizarre custom gamma like you list above.

The measured gamma can, of course, be anything (including what you list above) but that just defines the gamma error (white) or the lightness error (color) as a deviation from the reference.

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

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