R.Masciola's HDR-10 UHD Test Patterns - Page 36 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1051 of 1765 Old 11-25-2017, 06:41 AM
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@mascior

I'm about to get a Sony X930E, which can get up to 1400nits or so.

Since the patterns on your disc are all mastered to 1000nits, how will this affect grayscale readings? As in, will a 100% white pattern top out at 1000nits or will the display tone map it to its max nits?

Thanks

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post #1052 of 1765 Old 11-25-2017, 11:17 AM
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The display will tone map.

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post #1053 of 1765 Old 11-25-2017, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
The display will tone map.
Curious, if the pattern is mastered to 1000nits, how does the TV know to tone map it to max nits capable?

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post #1054 of 1765 Old 11-25-2017, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Curious, if the pattern is mastered to 1000nits, how does the TV know to tone map it to max nits capable?

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Remember that two different things are happening. First, the content is encoded with digital values corresponding to the color and luminance level of each pixel according to the ST2084 PQ requirements. Second, the metadata simply tells the playback TV the capabilities of the display used to master the content and certain stats on the data being sent. It's more of a guide to the TV what to expect. It doesn't really adjust the TV's maximum capabilities. And the full luminance of the display is still reserved for highlights, not used for the vast majority of the content being played.
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post #1055 of 1765 Old 11-25-2017, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Remember that two different things are happening. First, the content is encoded with digital values corresponding to the color and luminance level of each pixel according to the ST2084 PQ requirements. Second, the metadata simply tells the playback TV the capabilities of the display used to master the content and certain stats on the data being sent. It's more of a guide to the TV what to expect. It doesn't really adjust the TV's maximum capabilities. And the full luminance of the display is still reserved for highlights, not used for the vast majority of the content being played.
Gotcha.

I understand that max nits is for highlights in real material, but when we calibrate a TV 100% white, whether for SDR or HDR, is supposed to max out the nits possible (according to the Brightness/Contrast/Backlight settings being used) right?

Hence me just double checking since before now my TV couldn't even go past 700nits for a 10% window but now I can nearly double that.

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post #1056 of 1765 Old 11-25-2017, 02:29 PM
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There are actually two "maximum whites" that appear in HDR content. The first one is essentially the same as SDR 100% white, and is what is used for non-highlight white. The second is the maximum white of HDR highlights that can be up to 10K nits.

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post #1057 of 1765 Old 11-25-2017, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
There are actually two "maximum whites" that appear in HDR content. The first one is essentially the same as SDR 100% white, and is what is used for non-highlight white. The second is the maximum white of HDR highlights that can be up to 10K nits.
Thanks!

So just continue using the disc the same way I have been?

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post #1058 of 1765 Old 11-26-2017, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Thanks!

So just continue using the disc the same way I have been?

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I don't know how you've been using the disc, so my answer is "probably"...

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post #1059 of 1765 Old 11-26-2017, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
I don't know how you've been using the disc, so my answer is "probably"...
Haha, touche.

I meant if there are any considerations to take into account now that I can do over 1000nits. I made a new thread however to ask some generic calibration questions.
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post #1060 of 1765 Old 11-26-2017, 07:20 PM
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@mascior

Another question, this time for the Sharpness pattern.

(The picture attached is from my laptop, not my TV but I circled the two areas of interest to discuss within the pattern.)

For some reason when adjusting the Sharpness on my Sony (x930e), the boxes outlined in yellow appear a tint of green at default Sharpness value of 50. Setting Sharpness to 60 changes the colors of the boxes to gray but they never become a uniform gray like how it should look (can still distinguish fine lines). Going over 60 and the boxes return to a green tint.

This behavior doesn't happen for SDR sharpness.

Any idea what's going on?

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post #1061 of 1765 Old 11-26-2017, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
@mascior

Another question, this time for the Sharpness pattern.

(The picture attached is from my laptop, not my TV but I circled the two areas of interest to discuss within the pattern.)

For some reason when adjusting the Sharpness on my Sony (x930e), the boxes outlined in yellow appear a tint of green at default Sharpness value of 50. Setting Sharpness to 60 changes the colors of the boxes to gray but they never become a uniform gray like how it should look (can still distinguish fine lines). Going over 60 and the boxes return to a green tint.

This behavior doesn't happen for SDR sharpness.

Any idea what's going on?

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Hi BCJ,

I have yet to experience this anomaly. The area's that you have circled are high frequency, single pixel H/V rows, extremely high detail. You may want to try lowering your sharpness, typically sharpness at this level will add extra processing, even at a default value of 50. Also, you may want to check if any other unnecessary processing/edge enhancement features are enabled, as this will skew your image as well. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
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post #1062 of 1765 Old 11-26-2017, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post
Hi BCJ,

I have yet to experience this anomaly. The area's that you have circled are high frequency, single pixel H/V rows, extremely high detail. You may want to try lowering your sharpness, typically sharpness at this level will add extra processing, even at a default value of 50. Also, you may want to check if any other unnecessary processing/edge enhancement features are enabled, as this will skew your image as well. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
Thanks. I'll play around with some settings later this week. The color tint change is what threw me for a loop.

This same tint change also appears on the 1:1 pixel pattern for the Resolution slide under Miscellaneous.

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post #1063 of 1765 Old 11-27-2017, 07:00 PM
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@mascior

Just to verify, those boxes I highlighted should be gray colored, right?

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post #1064 of 1765 Old 11-28-2017, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
@mascior

Just to verify, those boxes I highlighted should be gray colored, right?

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Yep.

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post #1065 of 1765 Old 11-28-2017, 07:08 AM
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Newb question: I’m trying to setup a new 4K tv and projector and purchased this suite. I see the instructions PDF and it seems like more of an informational manual (explains what each pattern is) but doesn’t really spell out how to use the patterns with the TV controls. Is there a more detailed manual anywhere?
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post #1066 of 1765 Old 11-28-2017, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Yep.
Thanks.

Any idea why those particular patterns are appearing green tinted?

If there are no other anomalies like ringing, should I set Sharpness so it changes the tint of those to gray?

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post #1067 of 1765 Old 11-28-2017, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
I'm about to get a Sony X930E, which can get up to 1400nits or so.

Since the patterns on your disc are all mastered to 1000nits, how will this affect grayscale readings? As in, will a 100% white pattern top out at 1000nits or will the display tone map it to its max nits?
My (admittedly limited) understanding of tone mapping is that it only maps down, not up.

Thus, if a disc is mastered to 1000 nit, then all the tone mapping should happen only up to 1000 nits. Any higher code values will still produce 1000 nits. You can say things are clipped above 1000 nits, same as what happens on the 1000-nit mastering display.

However, if you’re playing a disc mastered to 4000 nits, then your TV will still tone map up to 1400 nits.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 11-28-2017 at 11:38 AM.
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post #1068 of 1765 Old 11-28-2017, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Thanks.

Any idea why those particular patterns are appearing green tinted?

If there are no other anomalies like ringing, should I set Sharpness so it changes the tint of those to gray?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
The only thing I can think of is that ringing is not coded in the signal - it is happening "wild" at the display. The artifacts are outside of the HDR Rec. 2020 and ST 2084 specs. So with an unrestrained wide gamut and high luminance, who knows how the display is producing the artifacts?

I think your green-tinted areas are the evidence of ringing. So reduce Sharpness until they become gray.

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post #1069 of 1765 Old 11-28-2017, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
The only thing I can think of is that ringing is not coded in the signal - it is happening "wild" at the display. The artifacts are outside of the HDR Rec. 2020 and ST 2084 specs. So with an unrestrained wide gamut and high luminance, who knows how the display is producing the artifacts?

I think your green-tinted areas are the evidence of ringing. So reduce Sharpness until they become gray.
Gotcha. Makes sense. Thanks again!



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post #1070 of 1765 Old 11-28-2017, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rprice54 View Post
Newb question: I’m trying to setup a new 4K tv and projector and purchased this suite. I see the instructions PDF and it seems like more of an informational manual (explains what each pattern is) but doesn’t really spell out how to use the patterns with the TV controls. Is there a more detailed manual anywhere?
You need a meter and calibration software in conjunction with the patterns in the suite to determine the extent to which the TV controls need to be adjusted.
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post #1071 of 1765 Old 11-28-2017, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by poppagene View Post
You need a meter and calibration software in conjunction with the patterns in the suite to determine the extent to which the TV controls need to be adjusted.
True that. About the only things one can eyeball with these are contrast/clipping, brightness, sharpness, and color/tint. Color/tint are workable only if your set has a blue-only mode - incorrectly called "RGB Mode" by Samsung. Don't even think about using a blue filter. Your results will be horribly off.

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post #1072 of 1765 Old 11-28-2017, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by poppagene View Post
You need a meter and calibration software in conjunction with the patterns in the suite to determine the extent to which the TV controls need to be adjusted.
Ah, would have been good to know before I purchased the software. I was thinking it was like Spears and Munsil but for HDR where a lot could be done by eye.

I have ordered a Spyder to use with my JVC Auto-Cal feature, I guess I'll try to use that with these patterns as well.
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post #1073 of 1765 Old 11-28-2017, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
The only thing I can think of is that ringing is not coded in the signal - it is happening "wild" at the display. The artifacts are outside of the HDR Rec. 2020 and ST 2084 specs. So with an unrestrained wide gamut and high luminance, who knows how the display is producing the artifacts?

I think your green-tinted areas are the evidence of ringing. So reduce Sharpness until they become gray.
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Gotcha. Makes sense. Thanks again!



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Hi BCJ,

I would have to agree with Rolls-Royce on this. I have tested this pattern on a multitude of displays without seeing this particular anomaly. As recommended, I would try lowering your sharpness and also turn off any edge enhancement features, as these can prove to be problematic as well. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
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post #1074 of 1765 Old 11-28-2017, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rprice54 View Post
Ah, would have been good to know before I purchased the software. I was thinking it was like Spears and Munsil but for HDR where a lot could be done by eye.

I have ordered a Spyder to use with my JVC Auto-Cal feature, I guess I'll try to use that with these patterns as well.
Hi rprice54,

Unfortunately with HDR, most if not all miscellaneous test patterns are to be utilized as a point of reference vs applied end user adjustments when compared to legacy SDR test patterns. This is mostly due to internal processing and tone mapping within the display. This is why a meter and/or video calibration software is recommended when calibrating within HDR. At least with SDR video calibration, there was essentially a common goal...HDR unfortunately is all over the place. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
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Last edited by mascior; 11-28-2017 at 11:43 AM.
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post #1075 of 1765 Old 12-05-2017, 08:33 AM
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I purchased and downloaded your package "RM UHD|HDR-10 Test Pattern Suite".
It's a valuable work, thanks a lot for that.

I use color HCFR and I notice that in your "HCFR 3.4.2 HDR10 Workflow/Basic CMS Sweep Module" forlder, patterns are 50% Amp / 100% Sat, whereas I read elsewhere that it is recommended to use 50% / 50% patterns (especially on AVS forum).
Please what is your position about that ?

Thanks in advance
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post #1076 of 1765 Old 12-05-2017, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the gnu View Post
I purchased and downloaded your package "RM UHD|HDR-10 Test Pattern Suite".
It's a valuable work, thanks a lot for that.

I use color HCFR and I notice that in your "HCFR 3.4.2 HDR10 Workflow/Basic CMS Sweep Module" forlder, patterns are 50% Amp / 100% Sat, whereas I read elsewhere that it is recommended to use 50% / 50% patterns (especially on AVS forum).
Please what is your position about that ?

Thanks in advance
Stand to be corrected as new to this also but the 50/100 is for the main primary/secondary colour sweep and the 50/50 recommendation is the individual saturation views/measures
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post #1077 of 1765 Old 12-05-2017, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the gnu View Post
I purchased and downloaded your package "RM UHD|HDR-10 Test Pattern Suite".
It's a valuable work, thanks a lot for that.

I use color HCFR and I notice that in your "HCFR 3.4.2 HDR10 Workflow/Basic CMS Sweep Module" forlder, patterns are 50% Amp / 100% Sat, whereas I read elsewhere that it is recommended to use 50% / 50% patterns (especially on AVS forum).
Please what is your position about that ?

Thanks in advance
Hi the gnu,

Thank you for the kind words. The thought process behind the 50/50 color patterns was to simply provide a safe and attainable range within amplitude and saturation for most HDR displays (92 nit and 50% of BT2020). However, these patterns do not explain the entire picture and would be greatly complimented by the 50% amp/saturation sweep. These patterns, though not found within the actual "Color HCFR" workflow, can be located within the Advanced Setup Patterns - 10% Window Patterns - 50% Amp_50% Sat Color. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
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Last edited by mascior; 12-05-2017 at 09:42 AM.
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post #1078 of 1765 Old 12-05-2017, 09:51 AM
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Also regarding 50%/50% patterns and HCFR, the current beta build available in the thread in includes a color checker option which corresponds to Ryan's 50%/50% patterns and is labled BT2020HDR_50_50. These are a good place to start prior to doing any saturation sweeps.
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The download is 2.02 GB, when you will unzip it will be 6.45 GB.
Any tutorial on how to unzip this? It seems to be eluding me...

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Any tutorial on how to unzip this? It seems to be eluding me...
http://www.7-zip.org
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