R.Masciola's HDR-10 UHD Test Patterns - Page 53 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1561 of 1773 Old 01-17-2019, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Is there any way that basic SDR 2/10 Point and CMS Patterns could be added into the mix to make an all in one pattern set?
He no longer is providing an SDR suite.
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post #1562 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 07:03 AM
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I have a LG C8 and I am looking into buying the HDR USB download version since I don't have a BD player. The 20 point white balance code for the C8 USB inputs are: 1023, 669, 652, 638,623, 607, 590, 576, 561, 545,528, 512, 497, 481, 468, 452, 420, 385, 321, 253. However, the codes that other have posted and for Prime Video HDR are 1023, 696, 682, 666, 651, 635, 618, 602, 587, 572, 555, 539, 525, 509, 494, 476, 443, 409, 341, 272. So there are two sets of 20 point white balance adjustments for C8 HDR depending on the inputs.

Question: does your HDR file download matches the c8 USB input white balance adjustment codes or it matches the second set? And if your codes match the second set, how do I calibrate the C8 using USB input since the adjustment points are different? Thanks.
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post #1563 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by e010238 View Post
I have a LG C8 and I am looking into buying the HDR USB download version since I don't have a BD player. The 20 point white balance code for the C8 USB inputs are: 1023, 669, 652, 638,623, 607, 590, 576, 561, 545,528, 512, 497, 481, 468, 452, 420, 385, 321, 253. However, the codes that other have posted and for Prime Video HDR are 1023, 696, 682, 666, 651, 635, 618, 602, 587, 572, 555, 539, 525, 509, 494, 476, 443, 409, 341, 272. So there are two sets of 20 point white balance adjustments for C8 HDR depending on the inputs.

Question: does your HDR file download matches the c8 USB input white balance adjustment codes or it matches the second set? And if your codes match the second set, how do I calibrate the C8 using USB input since the adjustment points are different? Thanks.
See post 1559 of this thread. Ryan lists the 2018 LG points included.

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post #1564 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by e010238 View Post
I have a LG C8 and I am looking into buying the HDR USB download version since I don't have a BD player. The 20 point white balance code for the C8 USB inputs are: 1023, 669, 652, 638,623, 607, 590, 576, 561, 545,528, 512, 497, 481, 468, 452, 420, 385, 321, 253. However, the codes that other have posted and for Prime Video HDR are 1023, 696, 682, 666, 651, 635, 618, 602, 587, 572, 555, 539, 525, 509, 494, 476, 443, 409, 341, 272. So there are two sets of 20 point white balance adjustments for C8 HDR depending on the inputs.

Question: does your HDR file download matches the c8 USB input white balance adjustment codes or it matches the second set? And if your codes match the second set, how do I calibrate the C8 using USB input since the adjustment points are different? Thanks.
USB Pattern Input calibrations give a different set of settings than those on a BD.
BD Patterns calibrate HDMI inputs, whereas USB Patterns calibrate USB and APP settings.

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post #1565 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
See post 1559 of this thread. Ryan lists the 2018 LG points included.
"- 2018 LG OLED code specific test patches firmware (04.10.15) Code values: 268, 335, 402, 436, 470, 485, 500, 516, 531, 549, 563, 579, 594, 610, 627, 643, 658, 674, 692 & 1023"

Thanks. I just double checked that my C8 firmware is 04.10.15. The Code values listed by Ryan are clearly different from the two sets I posted. Are there three different sets of codes for the C8?
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post #1566 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
USB Pattern Input calibrations give a different set of settings than those on a BD.
BD Patterns calibrate HDMI inputs, whereas USB Patterns calibrate USB and APP settings.
thanks. Your point is well taken. Most people I guess today watch HDR programs through internet streaming. I stream Netflix, Prime, Youtube through LG C8. I would argue that therefore calibrating through C8's USB is the most accurate method since I cannot calibrate LG's streaming any other way.
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post #1567 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I just confirmed, there are pattern code variations between models...

This is for a B8 USB "2018 LG OLED code specific test patches firmware (04.10.15) Code values: 268, 335, 402, 436, 470, 485, 500, 516, 531, 549, 563, 579, 594, 610, 627, 643, 658, 674, 692 & 1023"

If we can confirm the other 2018 models for USB, I will add them to the pattern suite. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
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post #1568 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
I just confirmed, there are pattern code variations between models...

This is for a B8 USB "2018 LG OLED code specific test patches firmware (04.10.15) Code values: 268, 335, 402, 436, 470, 485, 500, 516, 531, 549, 563, 579, 594, 610, 627, 643, 658, 674, 692 & 1023"

If we can confirm the other 2018 models for USB, I will add them to the pattern suite. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
Great. The C8 codes on my set are clearly different from your B8's. Another issue is that once I calibrate using your corrected C8 codes through USB, if I apply to "all other inputs", there would be a mismatch again since the dtreaming Prime Video HDR program use the second of codes that I posted, not the USB input codes (first set). Interestingly, all the YouTube HDR codes are identical to the USB input codes (first set). With all these complications being said, that you would provide the correct codes for the C8 USB input is one step to the right direction.
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post #1569 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Any other known 2018 code specific grayscale sweeps besides what is shown below? Thanks!

C8 - 253, 321, 385, 420, 452, 468, 481, 497, 512, 528, 545, 561, 576, 590, 607, 623, 638, 652, 669, 1023 (Need to be created and added to the suite)

C8 - 272, 341, 409, 443, 476, 494, 509, 525, 539, 555, 572, 587, 602, 618, 635, 651, 666, 682, 696, 1023 ( I initially had these values in REV_024, I can add these back)

B8 - 268, 335, 402, 436, 470, 485, 500, 516, 531, 549, 563, 579, 594, 610, 627, 643, 658, 674, 692, 1023 (These were just added in REV_025)

- Ryan M.
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post #1570 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
Any other known 2018 code specific grayscale sweeps besides what is shown below? Thanks!

C8 - 253, 321, 385, 420, 452, 468, 481, 497, 512, 528, 545, 561, 576, 590, 607, 623, 638, 652, 669, 1023 (Need to be created and added to the suite)

C8 - 272, 341, 409, 443, 476, 494, 509, 525, 539, 555, 572, 587, 602, 618, 635, 651, 666, 682, 696, 1023 ( I initially had these values in REV_024, I can add these back)

B8 - 268, 335, 402, 436, 470, 485, 500, 516, 531, 549, 563, 579, 594, 610, 627, 643, 658, 674, 692, 1023 (These were just added in REV_025)

- Ryan M.
I confirm the two sets for C8. I do not know of any other sets. Please let us now when you are done with adding the codes to your file.

I have used your one point white DV test window on my C8 USB and it works fine. If your 20 white balance point DV would take more time, could you release at least one high and one low white points for us to calibrate the two point white balance for DV, while we wait for the 20 points and other color calibrations?
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post #1571 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 03:21 PM
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He no longer is providing an SDR suite.
hm, thought Ryan planned to update all suites.
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post #1572 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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hm, thought Ryan planned to update all suites.
I still may, just low on the list. I'm currently wrapping up the Dolby Vision project right now, looking to start a project with LightSpace and thinking about UHD/SDR/BT2020 patterns as well...we shall see. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
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post #1573 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by e010238 View Post
I confirm the two sets for C8. I do not know of any other sets. Please let us now when you are done with adding the codes to your file.

I have used your one point white DV test window on my C8 USB and it works fine. If your 20 white balance point DV would take more time, could you release at least one high and one low white points for us to calibrate the two point white balance for DV, while we wait for the 20 points and other color calibrations?
My personal opinion is that LG should utilize percentages instead of triplet values, as it causes confusion since full range triplet values are being requested regardless if a limited or full range signal is being sent. When LG requests code value 1023 for example, they are actually looking for 100% stimulus, which is actually code value 940 when a limited signal is being sent. Not 1023 or 109.5% or above white. If the display is decoding and expecting limited values, then limited values should be utilized.

So if we take the following 2018 C8 grayscale sweep and convert it to percentages: 272, 341, 409, 443, 476, 494, 509, 525, 539, 555, 572, 587, 602, 618, 635, 651, 666, 682, 696, 1023

We would have the following:

26.6%, 33.3%, 40.0%, 43.3%, 46.5%, 48.3%, 49.8%, 51.3%, 52.7%, 54.3%, 55.9%, 57.4%, 58.8%, 60.4%, 62.1%, 63.6%, 65.1%, 66.7%, 68.0%, 100%


Now take those percentages and convert them to limited values, we would have the following below:

297, 356, 414, 443, 471, 487, 500, 513, 526, 540, 554, 567, 579, 593, 608, 621, 634, 648, 660, 940


So I'm wondering if the following limited triplet values should be used in place of the full range values being requested.

The 2017 LG calibration notes provided triplet values for both limited and full range at their corresponding percentage. This has me wondering whether or not the correct values are being requested...

When LG requests code value 272 for example, is it looking for 272 in full range? Limited range? 26.6%? Thoughts anyone?


- Ryan M.
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Last edited by mascior; 01-18-2019 at 10:51 PM.
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post #1574 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 04:39 PM
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Totally understand. I'd be happy with a SDR file for now, with just 12-21 point and 10% window.
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post #1575 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mascior View Post
My personal opinion is that LG should utilize percentages instead of triplet values, as it causes confusion since full range triplet values are being requested regardless if a limited or full range signal is being sent. When LG requests code value 1023 for example, they are actually looking for 100% stimulus, which is actually code value 940 when a limited signal is being sent. Not 1023 or 109.5% or above white. If the display is decoding and expecting limited values, then limited values should be utilized.

So if we take the following 2018 C8 grayscale sweep and convert it to percentages: 272, 341, 409, 443, 476, 494, 509, 525, 539, 555, 572, 587, 602, 618, 635, 651, 666, 682, 696, 1023

We would have the following:

26.6%, 33.3%, 40.0%, 43.3%, 46.5%, 48.3%, 49.8%, 51.3%, 52.7%, 54.3%, 55.9%, 57.4%, 58.8%, 60.4%, 62.1%, 63.6%, 65.1%, 66.7%, 68.0%, 100%


Now take those percentages and convert them to limited values, we would have the following below:

297, 356, 414, 443, 471, 487, 500, 513, 526, 540, 554, 567, 579, 593, 608, 621, 634, 648, 660, 940


So I'm wondering if the following limited triplet values should be used in place of the full range values being requested.

The 2017 LG calibration notes provided triplet values for both limited and full range at there corresponding percentage. This has me wondering whether or not the correct values are being requested...

When LG requests code value 272 for example, is it looking for 272 in full range? Limited range? 26.6%? Thoughts anyone?


- Ryan M.
I agree Ryan. When I saw 1023, to me that reflects full range, so should I choose black level high in C8 for calibration to match the full range. I have been using black level low (LIMITED RANGE) in my HFFR. I was really confused.
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post #1576 of 1773 Old 01-18-2019, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree Ryan. When I saw 1023, to me that reflects full range, so should I choose black level high in C8 for calibration to match the full range. I have been using black level low (LIMITED RANGE) in my HFFR. I was really confused.
That's just it...black level low is the correct setting, the test patterns are limited and the display is expecting limited range when decoding, yet it requests full range triplet values within the 20 point calibration setup...This is why I pose the question, what is the display expecting??

- Ryan M.
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That's just it...black level low is the correct setting, the test patterns are limited and the display is expecting limited range when decoding, yet it requests full range triplet values within the 20 point calibration setup...This is why I pose the question, what is the display expecting??
When I made my patterns for 2017 OLEDs I've just made two sets will full and narrow ("limited") range as specified by the LG doc. and set the appropriate range in the file metadata. I still don't know if those full-range patterns are rendered correctly by any 2017 LG OLED or any external player reads the metadata correctly - nobody reported neither success or issues with them. But it is 'as specified' and there are at least narrow-range set that is definitely works. Those 2018 models made me asking same questions and I am really lost in understanding of what those TV sets are 'expecting'. Every year LG 'invents' a new set of problems in the calibrations settings instead of solving them...
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post #1578 of 1773 Old 01-19-2019, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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When I made my patterns for 2017 OLEDs I've just made two sets will full and narrow ("limited") range as specified by the LG doc. and set the appropriate range in the file metadata. I still don't know if those full-range patterns are rendered correctly by any 2017 LG OLED or any external player reads the metadata correctly - nobody reported neither success or issues with them. But it is 'as specified' and there are at least narrow-range set that is definitely works. Those 2018 models made me asking same questions and I am really lost in understanding of what those TV sets are 'expecting'. Every year LG 'invents' a new set of problems in the calibrations settings instead of solving them...
Agreed. I did even further testing last night on a 2017 C7 and utilized the limited triplet values in place of the full range values requested with success. This tells me that LG is looking for the corresponding percentages, not triplet value. However, I'm not quite sure if that is the case for the 2018 models...

The full range triplets requested by the display - 0, 277, 345, 412, 446, 480, 498, 513, 530, 544, 561, 574, 589, 604, 617, 632, 647, 663, 678, 693 & 1023

The limited triplet range that I utilized - 64, 301, 359, 416, 445, 475, 490, 503, 517, 529, 544, 555, 568, 581, 592, 605, 618, 631, 644, 657 & 940

- Ryan M.
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post #1579 of 1773 Old 01-19-2019, 03:18 PM
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Agreed. I did even further testing last night on a 2017 C7 and utilized the limited triplet values in place of the full range values requested with success. This tells me that LG is looking for the corresponding percentages, not triplet value. However, I'm not quite sure if that is the case for the 2018 models...

The full range triplets requested by the display - 0, 277, 345, 412, 446, 480, 498, 513, 530, 544, 561, 574, 589, 604, 617, 632, 647, 663, 678, 693 & 1023

The limited triplet range that I utilized - 64, 301, 359, 416, 445, 475, 490, 503, 517, 529, 544, 555, 568, 581, 592, 605, 618, 631, 644, 657 & 940

- Ryan M.
If so, just use black level high (full range) and the full range codes (1023-0) for calibration. Just remember to switch back to black level low for normal TV viewing. Wouldn't be the results the same as using limited range (940-64) codes and black level low (limited range) for calibration?
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post #1580 of 1773 Old 01-19-2019, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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If so, just use black level high (full range) and the full range codes (1023-0) for calibration. Just remember to switch back to black level low for normal TV viewing. Wouldn't be the results the same as using limited range (940-64) codes and black level low (limited range) for calibration?
No, leave black level set to low. Utilize the limited range patterns and match them against the full range triplet values being requested. Example, if your display is asking for value 272 (which is 26.6% in full range), you would use pattern 297 instead (which is 26.6% in limited range). You need to match the percentage value, not the triplet value. This is at least my theory and seems to work well with what I've tested so far. However, this was on a 2017 model. I have yet to test this on a 2018. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
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post #1581 of 1773 Old 01-19-2019, 06:33 PM
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No, leave black level set to low. Utilize the limited range patterns and match them against the full range triplet values being requested. Example, if your display is asking for value 272 (which is 26.6% in full range), you would use pattern 297 instead (which is 26.6% in limited range). You need to match the percentage value, not the triplet value. This is at least my theory and seems to work well with what I've tested so far. However, this was on a 2017 model. I have yet to test this on a 2018. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
Thanks Ryan. That is one complicated process! LG makes it so difficult for those who want to calibrate themselves using low cost methods and means.
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I've seen this LG code value change happen since the 2017 LG's came out. I have no idea why they keep changing the HDR code values but now when you use Calman Autocal and calibrate HDR, they put the set in a "bypass" mode and calibrate it with 20 pt HDR patterns at the panel's native 2.2 gamma. When the calibration is complete, the set is taken out of "bypass" mode and internal calculations are done to generate the HDR EOTF similar to what they do for Dolby Vision. The advantage to this method is simplicity since you are not using HDR code values and calibrating your specific panel from the native 2.2 gamma in some cases can give you a higher peak luminance value than the factory calibration. So one thing you could do is provide the 20pt HDR patterns for those who use CM Autocal and have a 2018 or newer LG. You will have to set up Calman to request and wait for you to load the pattern if you take this route. For older sets, just doing the HDR 2pt calibration will give you "good enough" results vs having to manually do a 20pt calibration using the HDR code values which is why they introduced the HDR 2pt in 2017. Just an alternative for the LG using Ryan's patterns.
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post #1583 of 1773 Old 01-20-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by e010238 View Post
I use the HCFR. I don't intend to buy Calman software nor do I have other HDR input source. Using "cheap" but accurate HDR pattern through LG's USB is my best and most economical way of calibrating my C8 with a X-rite 1d pro. If what Ryan says is true, which I believe so, many people might have made the same mistake like I did using full range codes when legal range codes should have been used. The fact is, LG C8 calls for full range codes in its 20 pt white balance calibration when actually it requires conversion into legal range codes. Ordinary consumers like me have no idea how to do the conversion and select the right patterns accordingly. I guess that is why it is under the "expert mode". Many "experts" however probably would make the same mistake. LG has not published the conversion sheet or instruction for 2018 OLED TV's like it did on the 2017 which is another example that LG does not treat its customers well.
Then just do the HDR 2pt calibration and you will be all set since unless your set is out of spec, you shouldn't be able to see the difference between the 2pt and the 20pt unless you are going to do a full native panel HDR calibration.
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post #1584 of 1773 Old 01-22-2019, 11:10 AM
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Peter, remember that guy who could calibrate by eye? What was his name?

Useful, thanks. So I'll need the software and a meter? Is this meter something I can find on Amazon?
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post #1585 of 1773 Old 01-22-2019, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by exm View Post
Useful, thanks. So I'll need the software and a meter? Is this meter something I can find on Amazon?
Look for the i1Display Pro.

Would be nice to somehow get the HDR Patterns to show up on the amazon fire sticks.

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post #1586 of 1773 Old 01-23-2019, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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All,

I just got finished speaking with one of the Senior Directors of Engineering over at LG, who assisted with the implementation of the 20 point WB code specific values. He just confirmed my theory, both Full Range and/or Limited range triplet values may be utilized. If the Full Range values are to be used, then the patterns must be encoded in Full Range, not Limited Range. However, if the Limited Range values are to be utilized, you must perform a conversion from Full Range to Limited Range on all of the triplet values. Please keep in mind, when utilizing the Limited Range patterns, you will be using different triplet values vs what is being requested by the display within the UI. So even though the values do not match, the percentage values will still align. It was also mentioned that dynamic contrast must be disabled prior to calibration, as this will skew results.

With that being said, all of my 2016 and 2017 patterns are correct and I have deleted the Full Range section from the pattern suite entirely. I will still have to address the 2018 patterns, as all three sets will need to be converted from Full Range to Limited Range and encoded. These will be available within the next revision. If anyone has any further questions or concerns regarding this matter, please feel free to reach out. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
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post #1587 of 1773 Old 01-24-2019, 04:48 AM
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Is there a newbies guide to setting up and using Calman with HDR patterns from USB or Blu-ray? I have a Samsung Q9FN for which I've used Mobile Forge on a Fire TV Stick 4K and the Calman autocal for SDR workflow. But I can't get my head around how I'd configure Calman to use the USB (or blu-ray) as a source and to allow me to manually select the next pattern within the Samsung HDR autocal
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post #1588 of 1773 Old 01-24-2019, 09:53 AM
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Is there a newbies guide to setting up and using Calman with HDR patterns from USB or Blu-ray? I have a Samsung Q9FN for which I've used Mobile Forge on a Fire TV Stick 4K and the Calman autocal for SDR workflow. But I can't get my head around how I'd configure Calman to use the USB (or blu-ray) as a source and to allow me to manually select the next pattern within the Samsung HDR autocal
For both USB and BD, the correct pattern must be selected, then a single click on Calman for the same value, in the correct area. Adjust your set using the remote. Once adjustment has been made, re-scan, and keep doing these adjustments again until the appropriate results are gotten. (Note AutoCal CANNOT be used.)
I usually start with the 2 Point, advance to the CMS, and then the grayscale. Final checks of the 2 Point and CMS. HDR on my set has no 10/20 Point adjustments - we take whatever Samsung gives us. (Note: some of the professionals find the Samsung 10/20 point can be a PITB, and advise only doing the 2 Point.)
Also note: USB settings are totally separate from BD settings.

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post #1589 of 1773 Old 01-24-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
For both USB and BD, the correct pattern must be selected, then a single click on Calman for the same value, in the correct area. Adjust your set using the remote. Once adjustment has been made, re-scan, and keep doing these adjustments again until the appropriate results are gotten. (Note AutoCal CANNOT be used.)
I usually start with the 2 Point, advance to the CMS, and then the grayscale. Final checks of the 2 Point and CMS. HDR on my set has no 10/20 Point adjustments - we take whatever Samsung gives us. (Note: some of the professionals find the Samsung 10/20 point can be a PITB, and advise only doing the 2 Point.)
Also note: USB settings are totally separate from BD settings.
Thanks for the pointers. I agree the 20 point looks hard work to try to do manually - that's why I was hoping to use some sort of autocal/manual pattern hybrid approach.
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post #1590 of 1773 Old 01-24-2019, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mascior View Post
All,

I just got finished speaking with one of the Senior Directors of Engineering over at LG, who assisted with the implementation of the 20 point WB code specific values. He just confirmed my theory, both Full Range and/or Limited range triplet values may be utilized. If the Full Range values are to be used, then the patterns must be encoded in Full Range, not Limited Range. However, if the Limited Range values are to be utilized, you must perform a conversion from Full Range to Limited Range on all of the triplet values. Please keep in mind, when utilizing the Limited Range patterns, you will be using different triplet values vs what is being requested by the display within the UI. So even though the values do not match, the percentage values will still align. It was also mentioned that dynamic contrast must be disabled prior to calibration, as this will skew results.

With that being said, all of my 2016 and 2017 patterns are correct and I have deleted the Full Range section from the pattern suite entirely. I will still have to address the 2018 patterns, as all three sets will need to be converted from Full Range to Limited Range and encoded. These will be available within the next revision. If anyone has any further questions or concerns regarding this matter, please feel free to reach out. Thanks!

- Ryan M.
Ryan, that's great news on the being able to produce the correct 2018 patterns. You say they will be included in the next revision, any idea when that will be?
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